Talking to Believers in the Local Chuch

[jesusislord]

After a while I left the lc and meet somewhere, I try to talk to them because I still believe we have the same Lord. But they can't seems to understand why they're in where they are, they literally think they're following God, they nullify who lead and influence them, they think they got the bible 100%, they hardly can appreciate the good works of other groups, they ignore the contradiction btw leaders from other groups and their leaders, they doesn't seem to want to admit there's an issue.

I think how a person think is heavy influenced by what they read, what's your experience talking to the believer in lc after you left?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

what's your experience talking to the believer in lc after you left?

Defensiveness. Logic and plain words don't mean anything. As an example, one saint could not wrap their head around the fact that Satan's nature and will are different things from our nature and will. Another could not entertain the thought that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might not be "the tree of death" because there wasn't actually any poison in it, and kept insisting that poison is still "good for food" because it's edible.

Why? Because to entertain these thoughts mean they have to assume, even hypothetically just for a second, that Witness Lee's interpretations are up for questioning.

They get agitated when presented with plain facts. It's just strange.

[jesusislord]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Defensiveness. Logic and plain words don't mean anything. As an example, one saint could not wrap their head around the fact that Satan's nature and will are different things from our nature and will. Another could not entertain the thought that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might not be "the tree of death" because there wasn't actually any poison in it, and kept insisting that poison is still "good for food" because it's edible.

Why? Because to entertain these thoughts mean they have to assume, even hypothetically just for a second, that Witness Lee's interpretations are up for questioning.

They get agitated when presented with plain facts. It's just strange.

There's no witness lee interpretation for them, because they never read other interpretation or refer to other scholars outside of their group. When they join a training held by lsm they won't say it is a training held by the leaders of lsm, they'll call it the training by the Lord.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Defensiveness. Logic and plain words don't mean anything. As an example, one saint could not wrap their head around the fact that Satan's nature and will are different things from our nature and will. Another could not entertain the thought that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might not be "the tree of death" because there wasn't actually any poison in it, and kept insisting that poison is still "good for food" because it's edible.

Why? Because to entertain these thoughts mean they have to assume, even hypothetically just for a second, that Witness Lee's interpretations are up for questioning.

They get agitated when presented with plain facts. It's just strange.

After leaving, it didn't take me long to realize that there was just no point in maintaining contact with any of them. I wouldn't have minded so much if there was the opportunity for any real discussions to take place, but there just wasn't.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Defensiveness. ...They get agitated when presented with plain facts. It's just strange.

Originally Posted by Freedom

After leaving, it didn't take me long to realize that there was just no point in maintaining contact with any of them. I wouldn't have minded so much if there was the opportunity for any real discussions to take place, but there just wasn't.

There's a story somewhere that I haven't bothered to look up, but I remember it, because it made sense (as good stories do). It was about a person having knowledge of something dangerous, and warning the other. The moral of the story was, If you know about something and don't warn the next person, and they get hurt, the onus is now on you. But if you warn them, and they heed you, and turn back, then you've saved their life. But if you warn them, and they go on anyway, and get hurt, the onus is on them. You're discharged of your burden. Their blood is not on your hands.

That reminds me of another story... (sorry...) the prophet Amos comes down out of the hills, crying out for repentance. The townspeople laugh. "Amos! Get back up there with your sheep!!" Amos says, "I'd love to go back up there with my sheep. But God told me to come down here and warn you."

My point is, the conversation may not always be pleasant, but it's necessary. Try to make it simple and concise. They may accept it or reject it. They may bury it under layers of deflection and obfuscation. But you've discharged your duty. For example, the website by Jacob Howard is simple and direct, a good conversation starter, that is, if someone wants to have a conversation. If not, well okay. He did his part.

https://thelordsrecovery.org/blog/

[Sons to Glory!]

I think we have to take our direction directly from the Lord regarding approaching LC members. If we don't have His leading, it would come to exactly nothing and is a waste of time. But if you sense His leading, life and peace, then it will be something of Spirit and will be fruitful, regardless of how it seems to be received.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think we have to take our direction directly from the Lord regarding approaching LC members. If we don't have His leading, it would come to exactly nothing and is a waste of time. But if you sense His leading, life and peace, then it will be something of Spirit and will be fruitful, regardless of how it seems to be received.

I really wonder if this is true. I am not saying it is not, it is just that I recognize this to be LC think. So I really wonder at the veracity of it. Gods' word charges us to speak the truth in love, yes? And He calls the feet of those bringing and bearing the gospel of truth, the gospel of Christ, beautiful. Beautiful feet. So from what I see in scripture, we have a preordained calling to do both these things. Do we really need to 'sense the leading' or 'sense life and peace'.....before we walk in faith in what scripture teaches us?

Isn't it just ok to speak the truth, call out the error, preach the gospel, being as much in obedience to His word as we know it? If I sit around and wait for some sense of peace and life, deeply known in my being, I would never do anything. Just saying.

I have experienced the Lord in that way, StG. But it has only ever been personal to me, in my own deep need for clarity in a personal situation. So I know the Lord is well able to lead me in that sure, KNOWING kind of way, complete with absolute peace. But to have a conversation with someone about the truth vs. a lie, or truth vs. doctrinal error, I am usually on my own as far as 'sensing life' goes. But I still believe we are called to speak the truth in love, no matter our sense. And even if I have zero sense (most of the time)....God is faithful to His word, it cannot return void. I feel like we should just honor the word, irregardless of how we feel.

Today the Lord told me (over a sinkful of dirty dishes, in a quiet moment) that I was unfaithful to Him in a matter in my living. I have to acknowledge, He was right. He was telling me the truth. I repent, and His forgiveness and mercy are faithful to me, in spite of my infidelity. So I know He is still speaking to me, and still leading me, and that He DOES give us this 'sense' in our hearts and minds. So just to clarify, I am not mocking this thought at all. I do trust Him to lead me. I guess I am just not so clear in a moment to moment way. Or conversation by conversation. Usually I just try to obey the word and wing it. I think the concept of waiting on a particular sense is one of the ways that the LC paralyzes its congregants.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Do we really need to 'sense the leading' or 'sense life and peace'.....before we walk in faith in what scripture teaches us?

Isn't it just ok to speak the truth, call out the error, preach the gospel, being as much in obedience to His word as we know it? If I sit around and wait for some sense of peace and life, deeply known in my being, I would never do anything. Just saying.

I think the concept of waiting on a particular sense is one of the ways that the LC paralyzes its congregants.

I'm right there with you. In one of the messages from the recent semi-annual training in December the brother was talking about not living by right or wrong but by life. He gave some example of it being "right" to visit a sick neighbor if you live in the realm of right and wrong, but if you live by the sense of life then you will ask the Lord "How do you feel about me visiting my sick neighbor?" before you do it.

All I could think is how strange it was that they would throw up the warning lights about something we are commanded to do - love your neighbor - and that if everyone lived by that strange teaching then everyone would be, as you said, paralyzed waiting for a sense that will simply never come.

I'm not sure that the New Testament ever talks of a believer "living by a sense of life". The LC somehow has created this separate thing called "life" that people are supposed to live by, rather than simply having a relationship with God.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm right there with you. In one of the messages from the recent semi-annual training in December the brother was talking about not living by right or wrong but by life. He gave some example of it being "right" to visit a sick neighbor if you live in the realm of right and wrong, but if you live by the sense of life then you will ask the Lord "How do you feel about me visiting my sick neighbor?" before you do it.

All I could think is how strange it was that they would throw up the warning lights about something we are commanded to do - love your neighbor - and that if everyone lived by that strange teaching then everyone would be, as you said, paralyzed waiting for a sense that will simply never come.

I'm not sure that the New Testament ever talks of a believer "living by a sense of life". The LC somehow has created this separate thing called "life" that people are supposed to live by, rather than simply having a relationship with God.

Yep, Trapped, I was just thinking about you. I thought you would understand, based on something you wrote a while back.....having to do with making life choices....it really is not a teaching they got from the bible. I love it when the Lord speaks clearly to me and I have crystal clarity, a sense of life, if you will. But in my experience, for day to day minutia and life choices.....I do not have such a sense. Just the word which, praise God, He gave us! It is such a slippery slope, with the LC. The teaching seems really good, common sense based, even a person might take it at first with a strong 'yes' within.....but is it scriptural???

Beside this point, and to try and return to the opening post.....regarding speaking to the members openly and honestly, that kind of honest discourse was completely shut down on the LC side for me. They stopped speaking to me in person, by text, phone, and email. Full stop. So there is kind of no way to go on, no way to look at any particular subject with them, in my experience.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Beside this point, and to try and return to the opening post.....regarding speaking to the members openly and honestly, that kind of honest discourse was completely shut down on the LC side for me. They stopped speaking to me in person, by text, phone, and email. Full stop. So there is kind of no way to go on, no way to look at any particular subject with them, in my experience.

Each one of us had an exit strategy, not always consciously planned. Mine, I was completely oblivious to what was going on, relentlessly positive, 'all is for the best', not realising that the discussions were amounting to exit interviews. Once I was in a small group, a kind of "open fellowship time" and telling them of seeing Christ in the text, and a frozen silence came over them. The group leader stared straight ahead, at nothing, silent and still. The rest noticed and followed suit. My sin? Witness Lee had panned that section. They couldn't see Christ but also couldn't deny my vision. So a lively discussion group suddenly ground to a halt.

Weird. I went home puzzled and bothered. Eventually I realised that they're heavily programmed and can't deviate from the script, a kind of 'Stepford Wives' phenomenon. But I can use that today. Simply point out the disconnect, and let them deal with it. Example: why insist that women aren't qualified to teach and then sell books of women doing just that (e.g., Mary McDonough's 'God's Plan of Redemption') on your web site?

There are 30 or 50 places like this, where one can simply point out the two-facedness, the obvious disconnect. They do have brains, after all, though currently dormant. Ask them to activate, to wake up. If they can't respond, it's on them, not you. And if they do respond, maybe you can learn something!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm right there with you. In one of the messages from the recent semi-annual training in December the brother was talking about not living by right or wrong but by life. He gave some example of it being "right" to visit a sick neighbor if you live in the realm of right and wrong, but if you live by the sense of life then you will ask the Lord "How do you feel about me visiting my sick neighbor?" before you do it.

All I could think is how strange it was that they would throw up the warning lights about something we are commanded to do - love your neighbor - and that if everyone lived by that strange teaching then everyone would be, as you said, paralyzed waiting for a sense that will simply never come.

Great discussion here about the deleterious effects on love which so plague former LC members.

When I first started reading on this forum, one poster repeated an old testimony from a LC meeting. The testimony kind of shocked me into "sobriety" so to speak. The sick wife was doing dishes after dinner, but her husband was reluctant to assist her because he didn't want to do anything "from his natural man."

Huh? Who thinks this way? Only someone steeped in Leeism. How could a serious Christian husband be prevented from the most basic act of love due to a distorted teaching about love? The story was just too weird to ever forget.

Lee's teachings are just way too extreme, to say the least. Perhaps the sister in this story was not "good material," and thus not deserving of love? Perhaps the brother needed to pray-read, waiting on the "inner sense of life," before helping with the dishes? This story was told in a meeting. It was not just a passing thought in his mind, then quickly rejected. Lee's extremes had created mental strongholds, reinforced barriers, blocking the simple flow of love and good works. The poor guy was paralyzed and impotent, imprisoned by Lee's errant teachings about "following the Lord." Or should I say his poor wife?

[Sons to Glory!]

Good discussion! There are certainly approaches that would take us into the extreme in both directions - legalism or unpractical spiritism. The Anointing within will confirm His word and visa versa, won't it? And yet there are certainly times we must step out on faith without much of a sense, so it's all an experiment of sorts. (and hopefully we will recognize His inner leading that can keep us from tilting at windmills for too long . . .)

And good for you Trapped, for calling out the extra-biblical phrase, "follow the sense of life." What I do find in scripture is "walk in spirit" so perhaps it's better to say that. (yet that also does NOT mean there is no "sense of life and peace" which the Anointing produces in us!)

And I agree with Ohio, that the extreme WL teaching could certainly produce strongholds of ultra-spiritualism in people! But the Lord did also say things like, "Let the dead bury the dead," and told Martha that her sister had chosen the better part (rather than helping her with the housework), which I find pretty offensive to my natural thinking . . .

So before anyone thinks we have it all figured out (especially me) how about this: "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Good discussion! There are certainly approaches that would take us into the extreme in both directions - legalism or unpractical spiritism. The Anointing within will confirm His word and visa versa, won't it? And yet there are certainly times we must step out on faith without much of a sense, so it's all an experiment of sorts. (and hopefully we will recognize His inner leading that can keep us from tilting at windmills for too long . . .)

And good for you Trapped, for calling out the extra-biblical phrase, "follow the sense of life." What I do find in scripture is "walk in spirit" so perhaps it's better to say that. (yet that also does NOT mean there is no "sense of life and peace" which the Anointing produces in us!)

And I agree with Ohio, that the extreme WL teaching could certainly produce strongholds of ultra-spiritualism in people! But the Lord did also say things like, "Let the dead bury the dead," and told Martha that her sister had chosen the better part (rather than helping her with the housework), which I find pretty offensive to my natural thinking . . .

So before anyone thinks we have it all figured out (especially me) how about this: "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"?

The letter kills for those without the presence of the Holy Soirit. The word is living and operative in those who believe. We have everything we need, brother. We are complete in Christ. Absolutely no need of aberrant, weird making, bad fruit growing teachings.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great discussion here about the deleterious effects on love which so plague former LC members.

When I first started reading on this forum, one poster repeated an old testimony from a LC meeting. The testimony kind of shocked me into "sobriety" so to speak. The sick wife was doing dishes after dinner, but her husband was reluctant to assist her because he didn't want to do anything "from his natural man."

Huh? Who thinks this way? Only someone steeped in Leeism. How could a serious Christian husband be prevented from the most basic act of love due to a distorted teaching about love? The story was just too weird to ever forget.

Lee's teachings are just way too extreme, to say the least. Perhaps the sister in this story was not "good material," and thus not deserving of love? Perhaps the brother needed to pray-read, waiting on the "inner sense of life," before helping with the dishes? This story was told in a meeting. It was not just a passing thought in his mind, then quickly rejected. Lee's extremes had created mental strongholds, reinforced barriers, blocking the simple flow of love and good works. The poor guy was paralyzed and impotent, imprisoned by Lee's errant teachings about "following the Lord." Or should I say his poor wife?

Yes, Ohio.....it is a sad example of the fear that can stop a normal, loving Christian from behaving normally.....and I was on the receiving end of a lot of similar weirdness, and have lots of similar examples. But Paul wanted to be different things to different people for the furtherance of the gospel of Jesus. I think Paul was adjusting his approach based on the need before him. And I am sure there are a million different testimonies out there in the big wide world who could share how Jesus met their need for love in diverse ways. I believe if we keep His commandment to love Him and love our neighbor as ourselves, we do not need to wait for a special sense of life straight from Holy Spirit. We should just act based on the need before us and wait for the reward when we stand before Him. The waiting can wait, lol. Jesus never hesitated to heal the one before Him, especially when He saw their faith and hope in Him. I think Him expressing Himself through His people will be fulfilled through loving others, too. And the first step in loving someone is to be willing to hear them...hear their thoughts and their position on a subject and speak to them about it. This is the beginning of love. And keeping close to how the Lord treated people. He is Wonderful. And a wonderful example to follow!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...When I first started reading on this forum, one poster repeated an old testimony from a LC meeting. The testimony kind of shocked me into "sobriety" so to speak. The sick wife was doing dishes after dinner, but her husband was reluctant to assist her because he didn't want to do anything "from his natural man."

Huh? Who thinks this way? Only someone steeped in Leeism. How could a serious Christian husband be prevented from the most basic act of love due to a distorted teaching about love? The story was just too weird to ever forget.

.... The poor guy was paralyzed and impotent, imprisoned by Lee's errant teachings about "following the Lord." Or should I say his poor wife?

I knew a couple in this same situation. I don’t know if it was the same couple, but their marriage ended in divorce.

I would speculate that this sister was standing at the kitchen sink, sick, doing dishes by whatever strength she could muster...natural man or not.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I knew a couple in this same situation. I don’t know if it was the same couple, but their marriage ended in divorce.

I would speculate that this sister was standing at the kitchen sink, sick, doing dishes by whatever strength she could muster...natural man or not.

Nell

Yes, I think you were the one who first told that story. It shocked me at the time. Who could be like that? So callous.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, I think you were the one who first told that story. It shocked me at the time. Who could be like that? So callous.

The wife obviously needed some growth in life!

(reminds me when I was a very young brother in the LC in Bazerkely. A slightly older brother, who we all looked up to, was telling a small group of us bros about what to look for in a wife. He said, "You need to get a mean-lookin' battle-axe of a wife who'll grind you into fine powder, so the Lord can have a way with you." That is, strongly implying that we needed to help the Lord give us sufferings to assist Him with our transformation! Needless to say, we were all a little surprised when this this older bro married a very sweet and pretty sister . . .)

[Nell]

I understand you’re trying for some levity here, but this sister is a real person and her life became a tragedy beyond belief. ...

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

I understand you’re trying for some levity here, but this sister is a real person and her life became a tragedy beyond belief. ...

Sorry. If there was any offence, please forgive.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Sorry. If there was any offence, please forgive.

Forgiven. Thank you.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The wife obviously needed some growth in life!

(reminds me when I was a very young brother in the LC in Bazerkely. A slightly older brother, who we all looked up to, was telling a small group of us bros about what to look for in a wife. He said, "You need to get a mean-lookin' battle-axe of a wife who'll grind you into fine powder, so the Lord can have a way with you." That is, strongly implying that we needed to help the Lord give us sufferings to assist Him with our transformation! Needless to say, we were all a little surprised when this this older bro married a very sweet and pretty sister . . .)

This is the kind of stupid stuff that has plagued the LC's. I have to believe that the source is some twisted description of traditional Chinese home life.

[Nell]

Please delete...thanks