Wake-up Letter to Minoru

[Indiana]

Excerpt
You have “the truth of the full gospel of God;” and you want people to hear it,
but you don’t care for the truth regarding Daystar’s devastation; the factors of
further decline; and the full picture and understanding of division.

www.MinoruChen.com

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.MinoruChen.com

Someone once said that if you google up your own name, you might be surprised at what you find.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Curious

For those floundering, their helplessness is compounded from multiple directions. Trying to live up to being "God in life and nature" but actually being under-resourced to even function normally is not an equation that can add to a good result. This from persons born-in, second generation LCers! They are supposed to be flagships for the cause, evidence of it’s ‘reality’!....yet another source of pressure to be a living example of a schema that just doesn’t work, because it’s not actually truth.

I brought this great post over to this thread because I believe that it hits upon the real reason why there is such a "low grade depression" among many Local Churchers - young, old and everywhere in between.

The problem is not Daystar. The problem is not opposition on the Internet. The problem is certainly not the saints "not getting into the ministry enough". Local Churchers are swimming in a vast sea of 25-50 year old messages from a guy who's been dead for over 22 years. The problem is that Local Churchers are starving. As Curious has aptly stated, LC members are "actually under-resourced". If Witness Lee's ministry was actually part of the New Testament ministry it would be doing what the New Testament ministry does - Feed, give life, be a light unto our path, show us the way of mercy, grace and peace. It would also reprove, rebuke and correct. And yes, it would bring us "the full Gospel of God". It is now painfully obvious that Witness Lee's ministry does none of these.

Maybe Lee's ministry did actually function partially under the New Testament ministry back in the good old days of Elden Hall. I think there is a lot of evidence that there was a certain blessing poured out by God himself to his seeking ones in America and some other places. And this blessing was not created by Witness Lee or his ministry, but rather despite him and his well-meaning, fanatical followers. Church history is replete with such movements that had a wonderful and blessed beginning, only to become sick and lifeless for lack of following the real source of God's blessing - God himself, his Word and obedience to his Holy Spirit. All these have been replaced by a man and his so-called "ministry of the age".

Minoru and others have called for revival in the Local Churches for decades. And Witness Lee called for revival for decades before him. The problem is that they are calling for a revival back to a time and place that we cannot not go back to anymore than we can go back to the time and place of Jesus and the original apostles. But we can partake in and participate in their ministry, which has been preserved for us in the pages of the holy Scriptures. We also have the promise of the Spirit of power, grace and truth. It is only the Word and only the Spirit of the living God which can bring revival.
-

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Minoru and others have called for revival in the Local Churches for decades. And Witness Lee called for revival for decades before him. The problem is that they are calling for a revival back to a time and place that we cannot not go back to anymore than we can go back to the time and place of Jesus and the original apostles. But we can partake in and participate in their ministry, which has been preserved for us in the pages of the holy Scriptures. We also have the promise of the Spirit of power, grace and truth. It is only the Word and only the Spirit of the living God which can bring revival.

The LC is a system that has failed its members. And I think that includes members from just about every demographic, including longtime members, church kids, and even newcomers. Like Curious stated, it might be expected that success with the church kids would be evidence that the LC was something special. Quite to the contrary, church kid retention rate is something that they might want to take an honest look at.

I remember seeing a video a while back where Minoru went into some of the statistics related to the churches in southern California. It was eye-opening to say the least and it got me thinking as to why Minoru and the other blendeds just don't seem to get it.

They have the information in front of them. They have the numbers. They see that a problem exists, but they can't (or aren't willing to) pinpoint it to its origin. For example, Minoru was around in the late 80's when LC members left in their masses, and he had somewhat of a hand in that. Later on the blendeds go quarantine churches/leaders in an entire region of the U.S. and they think nothing of it. Then they wonder why their numbers are down.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Freedom

They have the information in front of them. They have the numbers. They see that a problem exists, but they can't (or aren't willing to) pinpoint it to its origin. For example, Minoru was around in the late 80's when LC members left in their masses, and he had somewhat of a hand in that. Later on the blendeds go quarantine churches/leaders in an entire region of the U.S. and they think nothing of it. Then they wonder why their numbers are down.

I would caution regarding using numbers alone as an indicator of whether the Lord is with a group. The Lord and His life are attractive, but numbers of people don't always make a good indicator. (e.g., the RCC has over a billion)

There is a sense, among us who are still meeting, that the Lord is bringing us on to a more advanced level of “enjoyment”. That letter is not far fetched from what’s to come in the LC in the coming years. Just wait and see. There is going to be a big “release” in the coming years. I’ve left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint.

[Boxjobox]

I would say this is a big part of the problem, and I don't know if it's been discussed: WL made such a big thing, and rightly so, about not having a church "name", but just The Church, the church in xxx city, you call yourself Mrs. Jones but you're married to Mr. Smith, etc. Yet he had no problem brand naming his "ministry". Instead of being part of "the ministry", he made a divisive decision to create his own brand name, made a business of LSM, and sold it to "the church", and in fact insisted that no one not under his brand and control had any part in "the recovery". This whole process still exists today. How is God supposed to honor such a divisive organization/business. Seems like the way of recovery would be for those involved in LSM to repent of their divisiveness and that the local assemblies turn back to scripture and to the Holy Spirit.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There is a sense, among us who are still meeting, that the Lord is bringing us on to a more advanced level of “enjoyment”. That letter is not far fetched from what’s to come in the LC in the coming years. Just wait and see. There is going to be a big “release” in the coming years. I’ve left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint.

Would you mind clarifying your comments? In my last post on this thread, I referred to the LC as a system that has failed it's members. Consider each of the major so-called turmoils that occurred within the LC. Each resulted in significant numbers leaving the LC. Additionally, there are countless "church kids" that have left, as well as rank and file members who felt that the LC is no longer for them. As an analogy, I might compare it to a truck driving down the road and losing it's load (unaware that it's happening).

The future success and impact of the LC remains to be seen, I certainly am not one to try to predict that. But based on the current state of things within the LC, the outlook doesn't look very promising. Here is why:

• LC leadership seems oblivious to the real issues that they are faced with. Steve's letter to Minoru is an attempt to highlight this.

• There has been no reckoning in regards to past failures of the LC. Even some of those who have been affected by such things have been demonized. Until the LC takes responsibility for past wrongdoings, a great number of people will continue to have a negative perception of the LC.

• LC members are continuing to speak out and leave. Jo's letter is a perfect example of this, and this is just one case. The wide impact of the letter goes to show how many current LC members are getting restless.

With these points in mind, to me it seems nonsensical to hear anyone in the LC talking about being brought into a more 'advanced' level of enjoyment. So that is supposed to happen in spite of all these things? That is supposed to all happen while current LC members are trampling on those who have concerns and less-than-positive experiences? Really?

It simply does not work that way. Going back to my analogy, sooner or later, the LCM will have to realize that they can't continue on full speed ahead. The only 'release' that has happened is that they have lost much of what gave them the potential to be an impactful movement in the first place. Some in the LC might think that all those who voiced concerns or spoke up were just weighing the LC down. Quite to the contrary, these people provided something very necessary - the feedback the LC needed to improve upon.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Minoru and others have called for revival in the Local Churches for decades.

There it is . . . MTLCGA! Make the Local Churches Great Again!

And like the other "great again" slogan, the unanswered question is when you (me, whoever) thinks that was. If it ever was. Typically it is presumed to be some time before most can remember.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There is a sense, among us who are still meeting, that the Lord is bringing us on to a more advanced level of “enjoyment”. That letter is not far fetched from what’s to come in the LC in the coming years. Just wait and see. There is going to be a big “release” in the coming years. I’ve left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint.

I remember Benson Phillips saying virtually the same words in the late 60’s. THE LATE 60’s!!! The words he used were “just you wait!” As a result we looked past the present, relied on our prideful “senses”; we looked down on those who were not as “advanced” in their enjoyment as WE were. We looked down with pity at poor, poor Christianity, and we looked with pity at those who were in the meetings but did not measure up to our “advanced level of enjoyment”. So in that regard, I guess not much has changed.

I’m still looking for the big “release”, prophesied in the late ‘60’s! It was portrayed as being the Church in Philadelphia...the church of brotherly love...none of which we had.

We were clearly in Laodicea and didn’t have a clue.

Nell

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by OBW

There it is . . . MTLCGA! Make the Local Churches Great Again!

And like the other "great again" slogan, the unanswered question is when you (me, whoever) thinks that was. If it ever was. Typically it is presumed to be some time before most can remember.

So, it becomes Babylone the Great instead.

[aron]

The last sentence of the post being considered says, "I've left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint."

The person left for some time - now, we don't know this person's circumstances but most leave with disillusionment. What was promised never got delivered. So they go out, seeking the temporary comforts and distractions of the world.

So why do they return, to what didn't work the first time? Why re-imbibe the failed promises of old? I believe it is this: they want something "more", and know it's somehow connected to the God of the Bible, and remain convinced that LSM has the "proper interpretation" of that promise.

The perceived alternative is what many young people on this forum write of - giving up on God altogether. The assumption in both cases is that God is accessed only through LSM interpretation of scripture. Either it must be embraced in toto, or 'God' rejected altogether.

But many of us who've gone on to read the Bible apart from it's current pen-builders (we have God in our theological box) have come to see that these are false alternatives.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I remember Benson Phillips saying virtually the same words in the late 60’s. THE LATE 60’s!!! The words he used were “just you wait!”

I heard Ron Kangas say virtually the same words in the late 90’s. THE LATE 90’s!!! After WL passed.

RK prophesied that many who had left the Recovery would soon return!

Then a few years later he quarantined the entire Midwest! Then he followed up with South America!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

So why do they return, to what didn't work the first time? Why re-imbibe the failed promises of old? I believe it is this: they want something "more", and know it's somehow connected to the God of the Bible, and remain convinced that LSM has the "proper interpretation" of that promise.

It's a marketing scheme -- always treat new "customers" better than those old, reliable ones, who regularly get taken advantage of.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Would you mind clarifying your comments? In my last post on this thread, I referred to the LC as a system that has failed it's members. Consider each of the major so-called turmoils that occurred within the LC. Each resulted in significant numbers leaving the LC. Additionally, there are countless "church kids" that have left, as well as rank and file members who felt that the LC is no longer for them. As an analogy, I might compare it to a truck driving down the road and losing it's load (unaware that it's happening).

The future success and impact of the LC remains to be seen, I certainly am not one to try to predict that. But based on the current state of things within the LC, the outlook doesn't look very promising. Here is why:

• LC leadership seems oblivious to the real issues that they are faced with. Steve's letter to Minoru is an attempt to highlight this.

• There has been no reckoning in regards to past failures of the LC. Even some of those who have been affected by such things have been demonized. Until the LC takes responsibility for past wrongdoings, a great number of people will continue to have a negative perception of the LC.

• LC members are continuing to speak out and leave. Jo's letter is a perfect example of this, and this is just one case. The wide impact of the letter goes to show how many current LC members are getting restless.

With these points in mind, to me it seems nonsensical to hear anyone in the LC talking about being brought into a more 'advanced' level of enjoyment. So that is supposed to happen in spite of all these things? That is supposed to all happen while current LC members are trampling on those who have concerns and less-than-positive experiences? Really?

It simply does not work that way. Going back to my analogy, sooner or later, the LCM will have to realize that they can't continue on full speed ahead. The only 'release' that has happened is that they have lost much of what gave them the potential to be an impactful movement in the first place. Some in the LC might think that all those who voiced concerns or spoke up were just weighing the LC down. Quite to the contrary, these people provided something very necessary - the feedback the LC needed to improve upon.

Freedom's post is quite interesting- you could substitute RC for LC and see the same pattern. We all loved the whole concept of the local church in the beginning and this was used by WL to sell the rest of his products, to seduce the believers into his scheme and false theology. As we used to apply the letter to the church in Thyatira to the RC we can now do the same to the LC, because there was no recoverey of the church, it became just another version of the RC- just a different pope, cardinals, arch bishops, bishops, etc. As a Christian I have to say the entire leadership needs to repent and deal with their gross sine and the beast they have created. I would go back in an instant to meeting as the local church in my city if they would sever the ties with LSM and truly meets as the church in my city.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's a marketing scheme -- always treat new "customers" better than those old, reliable ones, who regularly get taken advantage of.

The unregistered poster has yet to expound upon their post, but the statements made are highly indicative of what LC leadership is probably "selling" people in the LC. Promises of revival, telling people that the LC has reached an advanced level of enjoyment, etc.

Many longtime members have already seen through the sham. Some still stay regardless for whatever reasons. But then ever once in a while someone comes along saying how they were away from the LC and returned. Never is any good reason or rationale given. They just "returned." I tend to think that in such cases, these people simply weren't getting cared for in the LC. So they leave, then come back and everyone is ecstatic to see them return. So that cycle can be a little bit rewarding, especially when these people don't know what they really want.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

The last sentence of the post being considered says, "I've left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint."

The person left for some time - now, we don't know this person's circumstances but most leave with disillusionment. What was promised never got delivered. So they go out, seeking the temporary comforts and distractions of the world.

So why do they return, to what didn't work the first time? Why re-imbibe the failed promises of old? I believe it is this: they want something "more", and know it's somehow connected to the God of the Bible, and remain convinced that LSM has the "proper interpretation" of that promise.

The perceived alternative is what many young people on this forum write of - giving up on God altogether. The assumption in both cases is that God is accessed only through LSM interpretation of scripture. Either it must be embraced in toto, or 'God' rejected altogether.

But many of us who've gone on to read the Bible apart from it's current pen-builders (we have God in our theological box) have come to see that these are false alternatives.

Leaving the LC is no easy feat. And that is just the beginning. One still has to decide what happens next, what they believe, and what they really want. It seems though that it can be difficult to really think that far ahead, especially when the primary concern is simply escaping the clutches of the LC, and sometimes even abusive situations.

All too often, I saw people in the LC who were amid a constant cycle of meeting and then not meeting. I saw church kids leave, only to get caught back in, pressured to attend the FTTA, etc. What drives people back? Is it because they don't know anything else? Probably so.

I don't see anything in the LC currently that would be a particular draw to make people want to be part of it. Of course, those who were there when the LC was in its heyday can point to such and such an experience that happened at Elden hall and they derive meaning from that. But what about all the rest of the LC members? What do they really have going for them? Unless someone has had particularly positive experiences within the LC, they are left trying to rationalize what the LC is not. And all too often it ends up being a situation where they stick around because they know nothing else, or they keep falling away and coming back because they think the problem is they can't measure up to the demands of the LC.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

All too often, I saw people in the LC who were amid a constant cycle of meeting and then not meeting. I saw church kids leave, only to get caught back in, pressured to attend the FTTA, etc. What drives people back? Is it because they don't know anything else? Probably so.

Young adults leave because the blessed life doesn't materialize, instead it's more demands for commitment. Eventually, they either come back because they've been deeply programmed to believe there's no alternative, or they give up on Christian hope altogether. In both cases they're shaped by the narrative from Lee and the Blendeds.

But the God of Jesus in the NT is different from the one taught by LSM. Jo Casteel's open letter agrees: when they read the Bible without LSM interpretation they realized that the God presented in scriptural text was fundamentally different from that presented by LSM.

In the Psalms, a pattern of NT citations emerged in front of me, and I started seeing that the Jesus presented in the NT was seen as the fulfillment of the promised [OT] Messiah, the Righteous One sent to rescue God's chosen people, to be the Saviour of the world and a light to the Gentiles, and likewise the God who raised Jesus from the dead, whom Jesus called "Our Father", seemed fundamentally apart from the "Processed Triune God" in "God's Economy".

If you look at Psalm 34, for example, it continually references the righteous v/v the wicked, their paths and their end. RecV footnotes dismiss this, saying there is none righteous, we're all depraved and justification is by faith alone. David, the author of this psalm, lied to Abimelech and pretended to be insane, said Lee, so David wasn't righteous. Case closed.

But the NT citation of Psalm 34 shows Jesus as the Righteous Man: "The righteous person may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken" (vv19, 20; cf John 19).

A consistent and coherent pattern of textual referent emerged that I'd not seen when immersed in the LSM teachings. So I began to seek after Jesus there in the text, on the terms the text allowed. "Seek, and ye shall find", and "My sheep will hear my voice."

Here's a post from an "ex-Church Kid" who grew up in the LC programme, then FTTA, who's now functionally agnostic/atheist. Scroll down the Introductions section & you'll see quite a few in this vein.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I was required to attend every Sunday, as well summer school of truths, conferences, and even semi-annuals when I was older. I lived in a sisters house a few years in college and attended FTT-Anaheim for two years. I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it.

Minoru's conceit is that the ministry alone explains the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Jesus and Paul and James and John. But if you read the Bible, it isn't so. I used Psalms as an example, but others might use Numbers, or Isaiah... that if you subject LSM to the same scrutiny as everyone else got. you'll start to see the issues with their output, which is why critical thinking is forbidden with the group. Any critical examination of LSM doctrine is labeled as being "negative" or "poisoned" against leadership. So the young ones who left either think, "I couldn't make it" and they're doomed to outer darkness, or they can't stand the pressure and condemnation and just reject God in toto.

[Boxjobox]

This is actually the fundamental flaw in the whole "recovery" concept: A recovery of the church would first and foremost be a recovery and return to the vocabulary of the scriptures, apart from all the garbage that has been added over the centuries. Jesus and the apostles never presented the vocabulary WL presented. The speaking in the church should echo what is plainly taught in the NT. WL's speaking and writings present a different gospel- my recollection is that he even boasted of a new heavenly language and new light. The basic concept of gathering together as the church in a city, of not adding other divisive names, the priesthood of the saints, and the open fellowship, which were not of WL's origin were great- but then his LSM business with its warped concept of God and Christ corrupted the sweetness of the church, and the true fellowship of the saints. It was no longer are you a believer, but are you a 100% follower of WL and LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

This is actually the fundamental flaw in the whole "recovery" concept: A recovery of the church would first and foremost be a recovery and return to the vocabulary of the scriptures, apart from all the garbage that has been added over the centuries. Jesus and the apostles never presented the vocabulary WL presented. The speaking in the church should echo what is plainly taught in the NT. WL's speaking and writings present a different gospel- my recollection is that he even boasted of a new heavenly language and new light. The basic concept of gathering together as the church in a city, of not adding other divisive names, the priesthood of the saints, and the open fellowship, which were not of WL's origin were great- but then his LSM business with its warped concept of God and Christ corrupted the sweetness of the church, and the true fellowship of the saints. It was no longer are you a believer, but are you a 100% follower of WL and LSM.

Initially WL behaved like so many other 60's ministers who saw the undeniably genuine move of the Spirit amidst the chaos and protests of Viet Nam and a few high profile assassinations. Much of the fruit of the "Jesus People Movement" had no desire to return to traditionally structured denominations. All sorts of new groups and congregations sprung up with a common theme -- return to the basic message of the N.T. -- a "recovery" of sorts.

With a Catholic background and a fresh salvation, I was particularly attracted to the message of "Christ, only Christ" and the promised return to the "pure word" of God in the church in Cleveburg, OH. Simultaneously many fresh translations came forth to replace the archaic wording of the KJV. With my new life and a living bible, I was ready to join the "real" body of Christ. Except for the outspoken hatred of all Christianity and brothers who wanted to run my life, the early church life was wonderful, and almost "normal."

As is often said by the power-hungry, "never let a good crisis go to waste," true to form WL used manufactured self-inflicted "storms" to slowly take over absolute control of all LC's. WL would use many other gifted brothers to build his empire, and went things went south, he would throw them under the bus. Thus every Recovery crisis would pass with WL appearing more exalted like some godman MOTA, and all the LC's forfeiting our liberties to him for his "protection" against these "ambitious" men out to deceive and "poison" us. WL had mastered these techniques in China and Taiwan and was ready to apply them to gullible Americans.

[Boxjobox]

I became a Christian in '74 and came to my 1st meeting of the LC in '76. Catholic background as well. I think WL started switching gears right around that time. An increase in LSM was an obvious decrease in the practice and blessing of the local assembly. Then by the 80's he really put the pedal to the metal and there was a departure of saints and some elders and a total sell out by others. I left in ''86. Can you imagine how all Christianity would have changed if the local church had remained local- with that local functionality? Instead, most Christian gatherings now are based on the pastoral business model, which also ripped off the Jesus people from great fellowship.

It's so unfortunate ones like Minoure don't recognize this fundamental flaw and minister to bring back the local church. It is high time for those in the LC lead to repent, turn and minister to bring back that which was from the beginning.. But it is hard to kick against the prods. They should have an old fashioned book burning and dump all their LSM material and count the cost of the materials. They should reject any control of LSM over the local assembly and return to scripture. The mere fact that they need to have "trainings" shows that the normal function of the local assembly has disappeared.. if there was a return to the practice of the local assembly, I think everyone would really receive A heavenly blessing (church in Philadelphia). Without this major repentance it is ludicrous to think there is going to be any blessing from God.

[Sons to Glory!]

The centralized command & control the LC began practicing is a natural result of the flesh. It's such a big irony with the LC, because they preached against it and its evils. You may be right, that is, if local autonomy was protected and practiced, there might have been a much bigger impact on Christendom! There were some very good practices (e.g., open and participative gatherings), but with the overt centralization (and a highly flawed one at that) it just looks like just another fleshly denomination vying for power.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Jesus and the apostles never presented the vocabulary WL presented. The speaking in the church should echo what is plainly taught in the NT. WL's speaking and writings present a different gospel — my recollection is that he even boasted of a new heavenly language and new light.

All strange incense and strange music. An abomination. Man's attempt to please God in a manner that He never ordained.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As is often said by the power-hungry, "never let a good crisis go to waste," true to form WL used manufactured self-inflicted "storms" to slowly take over absolute control of all LC's. WL would use many other gifted brothers to build his empire, and went things went south, he would throw them under the bus. Thus every Recovery crisis would pass with WL appearing more exalted like some godman MOTA, and all the LC's forfeiting our liberties to him for his "protection" against these "ambitious" men out to deceive and "poison" us. WL had mastered these techniques in China and Taiwan and was ready to apply them to gullible Americans.

I have been mulling this thought against the facts of history for several days, and to me it presents several frightening aspects of "Recovery" ministry.

First consider the foundational ideals of those in the US who initially espoused WL's ministry as a co-worker of WN: Local assembly/churches each governed by local elders seeking the Lord to best care for their members while rejecting established traditions, and faithfully adhering to the N.T. pattern in the word of God. Localism without headquarters, eldership without hierarchy, all the saints functioning by the Spirit, centered on Christ, only Christ -- all watchwords for the blossoming movement.

How did we get from there to here? Was it normal evolution, chance happenings, or an orchestrated plan of events? How did the members and local leaders agree to these monumental changes? Did we all just go along willingly?

Here's what's troubling me. The pattern I'm seeing is the same one used by organized crime. Simply stated, goons are sent into "local" businesses and in the aftermath of the resulting dangerous chaos, "protections" from these same people are then promised in exchange for "local" assets and their liberties. In the resulting state of fear, this is then justified as the "cost of doing business."

Study both the "Max" and "Ingalls" rebellions, and I cannot arrive at any other conclusion. Did not WL effectively use the tactics of organized crime to transform the entire movement from an "Antioch Principle" local movement to a "Jerusalem Principle" high-control headquartered movement? Comments?

[Boxjobox]

We used to say "so & so doesn't 'see' the church". Meaning, apart from all the history and movements in Christianity over 1900 years, there was still that thing " the church" and "the churches". Local assemblies of believers, gathering together as the called out ones, loving the Lord, the truth, the saints, fellowshipping together, growing in grace, keeping the word, breaking bread, etc., under the leadership of elders in the local assembly who understood and saw this. WL did a good job "recovering" this, and the saints seemed to flourish. Then we were introduced to a different side of WL- the businessman who saw a golden opportunity. His business rode on the back of the churches "vision" and in no small feat, put them all under the yolk of LSM. So the one who introduced meeting with no name took on a name and we can see, he himself lost the "vision". I say no small feat, because the elders and the saints should have whole heartedly rejected such a move. As we all know, some did, and we know the history of the whole fiasco.

Still, that "vision" of the church and the churches still exists, and still needs to be "recovered". I mean, what is the alternative? The pastoral business model of Christians filing into an auditorium and watching a pastoral performance, and a midweek bible study? No Thank You!.

You would think ones like Minoru would wake up from the LSM nightmare shake off the disgusting error and repent of the error. Elders in lthe LCs should do the same: Dump the whole LSM entrapment and return to the scriptures and the "vision".

[Boxjobox]

I started reading a secular book written in the late 60's called Power, author A Berle. He talks about the history of power- men ruling over men, positions, organization, use and misuse, rise to power, fall from power, gravitating to power, why people submit to power, what people get out of power etc.
Our Lord, Jesus, talked quite a bit about how the church was to be ruled, and the church structure related to power: the key elements seem to be humility, love, and serving. Sure signs of wrong church leadership are mistreating saints, love of money, love of position. Nicolaitianism was something Jesus hates! Yet all of this is what governs the LSM/LC enterprise.

[Boxjobox]

So, let's say the apostle John decided after so many years to capitalize on his bible knowledge and position and started Patmos Ministery. He sold his parchment notes to the saints for 25¢ and his larger scrolls for $10. Being the last of the living Apostles, he insisted that all the churches follow him and only use Patmos Ministry material. Any that rejected this were declared poison. While acknowledging Matt, Mark, and Luke, he let the saints know that they were missing the mark of complete truth which he possessed. Jude, James were low. Paul, who had now fallen asleep, well, somehow John acquired exclusive rights to his material and now it was sold under the Patmos label.
John sets up operation in Ephesus, begins training in his new way, which reaps much profits in parchment sales. John realizes somewhere along the line that a ministry emphasizing love really won't work to his benefit, so shifts his emphasis to "truth" of which he declares himself sole proprietor.

Of course, John was not of this character- thank God for that! But do we see a need for the saints and elders to wake up, shake off the shackles of LSM, repent, return to the scriptures, the Spirit, and the correct practice of the church assembly?

[Sons to Glory!]

Well I don't know about you, but I'm of John . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So, let's say the apostle John decided after so many years to capitalize on his bible knowledge and position and started Patmos Ministery. He sold his parchment notes to the saints for 25¢ and his larger scrolls for $10. Being the last of the living Apostles, he insisted that all the churches follow him and only use Patmos Ministry material. Any that rejected this were declared poison. While acknowledging Matt, Mark, and Luke, he let the saints know that they were missing the mark of complete truth which he possessed. Jude, James were low. Paul, who had now fallen asleep, well, somehow John acquired exclusive rights to his material and now it was sold under the Patmos label.

John sets up operation in Ephesus, begins training in his new way, which reaps much profits in parchment sales. John realizes somewhere along the line that a ministry emphasizing love really won't work to his benefit, so shifts his emphasis to "truth" of which he declares himself sole proprietor.

I think it was a completely legit "move of the seven-fold intensified Spirit" for John to establish such a "New Way" based on his latest "Up-To-Date" ministry, as long as he uses all the proceeds to support the full-timers, build an amphitheater using the saints volunteer labor, and pad his wealthy boys.

[OBW]

I am not completely opposed to the idea of paying for things from a "ministry." But that generally means that the cost is reasonably close to its cost. In other words, I do not expect some ministry to spend resources to just give me something when I can pay for it.

And I have heard many who do "small-time" writing say that it doesn't make any money.

But when it is a major income source, unless it is the only way they earn anything and the overall income is reasonable, then I have a problem with it.

When someone asks for $10,000 to appear at an event that you set up and provide everything except him/her, and they do this, on average, weekly, then there is some "splainin" to do.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

We used to say "so & so doesn't 'see' the church". Meaning, apart from all the history and movements in Christianity over 1900 years, there was still that thing " the church" and "the churches". Local assemblies of believers, gathering together as the called out ones, loving the Lord, the truth, the saints, fellowshipping together, growing in grace, keeping the word, breaking bread, etc., under the leadership of elders in the local assembly who understood and saw this. WL did a good job "recovering" this, and the saints seemed to flourish. Then we were introduced to a different side of WL- the businessman who saw a golden opportunity. His business rode on the back of the churches "vision" and in no small feat, put them all under the yolk of LSM. So the one who introduced meeting with no name took on a name and we can see, he himself lost the "vision". I say no small feat, because the elders and the saints should have whole heartedly rejected such a move. As we all know, some did, and we know the history of the whole fiasco.

Still, that "vision" of the church and the churches still exists, and still needs to be "recovered". I mean, what is the alternative? The pastoral business model of Christians filing into an auditorium and watching a pastoral performance, and a midweek bible study? No Thank You!.

You would think ones like Minoru would wake up from the LSM nightmare shake off the disgusting error and repent of the error. Elders in lthe LCs should do the same: Dump the whole LSM entrapment and return to the scriptures and the "vision".

Actually J.N Darby “recovered” what you described https://bibletruthpublishers.com/chu...ical-4/la62754. Watchman Nee copied him. Witness Lee copied him. And, after much success they all ruined it by trying to force their ministries on the churches.

Boxjobox have you checked out one body.life, read any of Henry Hon’s books, or attended one of the events organized by one body.life? Henry Hon suggests a way forward for Christians looking for the assembly where “each one has” in his book One Ekklesia and often speaks about that at one body.life events. I’ve met a few saints from So Cal at those events you might want to connect with.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have been mulling this thought against the facts of history for several days, and to me it presents several frightening aspects of "Recovery" ministry.

First consider the foundational ideals of those in the US who initially espoused WL's ministry as a co-worker of WN: Local assembly/churches each governed by local elders seeking the Lord to best care for their members while rejecting established traditions, and faithfully adhering to the N.T. pattern in the word of God. Localism without headquarters, eldership without hierarchy, all the saints functioning by the Spirit, centered on Christ, only Christ -- all watchwords for the blossoming movement.

How did we get from there to here? Was it normal evolution, chance happenings, or an orchestrated plan of events? How did the members and local leaders agree to these monumental changes? Did we all just go along willingly?

Here's what's troubling me. The pattern I'm seeing is the same one used by organized crime. Simply stated, goons are sent into "local" businesses and in the aftermath of the resulting dangerous chaos, "protections" from these same people are then promised in exchange for "local" assets and their liberties. In the resulting state of fear, this is then justified as the "cost of doing business."

Study both the "Max" and "Ingalls" rebellions, and I cannot arrive at any other conclusion. Did not WL effectively use the tactics of organized crime to transform the entire movement from an "Antioch Principle" local movement to a "Jerusalem Principle" high-control headquartered movement? Comments?

Ohio, I think the reason you see a pattern is because the same guy is driving both vehicles, namely, Satan. Same driver, same patterns of behavior, same old story. I see so many similarities in behavior when I contrast the unsaved with the local churchers. The unsaved (the whole world, in fact) lie in the wicked one, and it is impossible to discern any difference between the lack of love there(think shunning) and the lack of love and shunning the LCers dish out. I see patterns and similarities wherever that devil works, even if there is no blatant connection.....

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am not completely opposed to the idea of paying for things from a "ministry." But that generally means that the cost is reasonably close to its cost. In other words, I do not expect some ministry to spend resources to just give me something when I can pay for it.

And I have heard many who do "small-time" writing say that it doesn't make any money.

But when it is a major income source, unless it is the only way they earn anything and the overall income is reasonable, then I have a problem with it.

When someone asks for $10,000 to appear at an event that you set up and provide everything except him/her, and they do this, on average, weekly, then there is some "splainin" to do.

OBW- I think you should consider the bigger picture/offense here: People are meeting as "the church" in xxx city- not a small claim, not a small standing. They meet as believers who have each received all the blessings Paul talks about in Ephesians and elsewhere. This standing came about through the work-ministry of WL, which I for one greatly appreciate- it's a great thing to me that an understanding came that apart from all the divisions, sects, etc., saints would gather in such a way- I don't say perfectly necessarily, but adequate for a beginning and a standing which God can bless. In the early 70's, this blessing was enjoyed.
Then-then WL began making a business, with exclusive rights to "the church" and the "churches". Whether some saints like his "ministry" and support it is one thing- but to take over the "recovery" as the sole source of "ministry" and to insist that his teachings on all things spiritual were the only content allowed in "the churches" is an offense to God and man. A business became the business of the LC. He named his business LSM and insisted that whoever does not attach themselves to LSM are out. The entire concept of the LC is ruined by this- it turned the sweet blessing of meeting together as believers, as the church into a cult of LSM. This, as I say is an offense to God, and should trouble everyone meeting as the LC. In Revelation- concerning the churches, the way out is to repent.
Then- then WL died and the business is still going on!!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, I think the reason you see a pattern is because the same guy is driving both vehicles, namely, Satan. Same driver, same patterns of behavior, same old story. I see so many similarities in behavior when I contrast the unsaved with the local churchers. The unsaved (the whole world, in fact) lie in the wicked one, and it is impossible to discern any difference between the lack of love there(think shunning) and the lack of love and shunning the LCers dish out. I see patterns and similarities wherever that devil works, even if there is no blatant connection.....

Yes - Satan corresponding to our flesh. In many respects he's sort of a "one-trick pony" in that his approach is generally the same over and over. Even in Eden, it was the allure of pride in being able to see, do and control things apart from God. Pride strongly entered into the LC.

No matter how good something appears - think TLR in the 60s - if there's any opening for the enemy, then the flesh will rise up to take control. And the stronger the move of the Lord, the more the enemy will seek to control it. The speed at which this happened in the LC, however, is truly astounding!

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by JJ

Actually J.N Darby “recovered” what you described https://bibletruthpublishers.com/chu...ical-4/la62754. Watchman Nee copied him. Witness Lee copied him. And, after much success they all ruined it by trying to force their ministries on the churches.

Boxjobox have you checked out one body.life, read any of Henry Hon’s books, or attended one of the events organized by one body.life? Henry Hon suggests a way forward for Christians looking for the assembly where “each one has” in his book One Ekklesia and often speaks about that at one body.life events. I’ve met a few saints from So Cal at those events you might want to connect with.

My understanding- which may not be perfect on this, is that Darby started insisting that his was the exclusive ministry as well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, I think the reason you see a pattern is because the same guy is driving both vehicles, namely, Satan. Same driver, same patterns of behavior, same old story. I see so many similarities in behavior when I contrast the unsaved with the local churchers. The unsaved (the whole world, in fact) lie in the wicked one, and it is impossible to discern any difference between the lack of love there(think shunning) and the lack of love and shunning the LCers dish out. I see patterns and similarities wherever that devil works, even if there is no blatant connection.....

Perhaps you are right, byHismercy.

The Bible also points out the fallen nature, even in church leaders, of those not guided by either the word of God, the Spirit of God, the love of God, or the headship of Christ.

It is sad to see this same pattern in the unsaved, as you mentioned, but is doubly sad to see this in church leaders. The apostle Paul faced this same battle during his entire ministry, and thank the Lord much of that was recorded, otherwise we all might be stumbled seeing this for the first time in those who were supposed to "watch over our souls." (Heb 13.17)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you are right, byHismercy.

The Bible also points out the fallen nature, even in church leaders, of those not guided by either the word of God, the Spirit of God, the love of God, or the headship of Christ.

It is sad to see this same pattern in the unsaved, as you mentioned, but is doubly sad to see this in church leaders. The apostle Paul faced this same battle during his entire ministry, and thank the Lord much of that was recorded, otherwise we all might be stumbled seeing this for the first time in those who were supposed to "watch over our souls." (Heb 13.17)

Yes, praise God for the exhortation and warnings of the real apostles in the word, Ohio! And you said it better than I. Scripture calls it another Jesus, but we know there is only one Jesus, this 'other' spirit is the enemy of God, working tirelessly to put a wrench in Gods' work.

It's important to see that the LR looks like a, walks like a, and quacks like a cult, it is indistinguishable from a cult in practice and form, in fact, and that, most all the cults I can bring to mind are deceiving people without claiming any faith in Christ. The LC look just like the world because, like those other cults, it has nothing to do with the Spirit of the Lord.

If I had known how the LC meets and ticks boxes that your average cult does, as a young believer first coming into contact (or getting love bombed) with them, I would at the very least, have been cautious or done some research on this group. Might have avoided the deception and the damage, although who knows? Those days were pre-internet, at least for me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Yes, praise God for the exhortation and warnings of the real apostles in the word, Ohio! And you said it better than I. Scripture calls it another Jesus, but we know there is only one Jesus, this 'other' spirit is the enemy of God, working tirelessly to put a wrench in Gods' work.

It's important to see that the LR looks like a, walks like a, and quacks like a cult, it is indistinguishable from a cult in practice and form, in fact, and that, most all the cults I can bring to mind are deceiving people without claiming any faith in Christ. The LC look just like the world because, like those other cults, it has nothing to do with the Spirit of the Lord.

If I had known how the LC meets and ticks boxes that your average cult does, as a young believer first coming into contact (or getting love bombed) with them, I would at the very least, have been cautious or done some research on this group. Might have avoided the deception and the damage, although who knows? Those days were pre-internet, at least for me.

~40 years ago I was told an interesting deflection to the cult accusation -- that cults have "church-like" characteristics. Hmmm . . .

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes - Satan corresponding to our flesh. In many respects he's sort of a "one-trick pony" in that his approach is generally the same over and over. Even in Eden, it was the allure of pride in being able to see, do and control things apart from God. Pride strongly entered into the LC.

No matter how good something appears - think TLR in the 60s - if there's any opening for the enemy, then the flesh will rise up to take control. And the stronger the move of the Lord, the more the enemy will seek to control it. The speed at which this happened in the LC, however, is truly astounding!

It seems like that spiritual pride, is leading to their fall. That was one way they opened the door to the enemy. May the Lord lead them into deep repentance. And may Jesus keep us all from spiritual pride and divisiveness, and other error, or shine into our hearts when we go away from Him. I just feel for all the individuals in the LC. The Lord can shine into our hearts and convict with the Holy Spirit, but it is harder to see, it seems like, if you are in a whole system of error, especially when you are being trained and indoctrinated to NOT LOOK!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

~40 years ago I was told an interesting deflection to the cult accusation -- that cults have "church-like" characteristics. Hmmm . . .

Ha! If you knew then what you know now! I am kinda assuming you were told that little nugget in the LC.....?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ha! If you knew then what you know now! I am kinda assuming you were told that little nugget in the LC.....?

Of course. About the same time I was told that filing lawsuits was the same as "appealing to Caesar," as if suing Christians made us more scriptural than other Christians.

The Ohio LC's were never as extreme as other places, especially not in those early days. Some of the stuff I have read since leaving the LC's still makes my head spin -- like some of the abuses mentioned by the Casteels. It's no wonder they suffered so much retaliation.

There was, however, always an undercurrent of dissent in the region, that the Ohio leadership was not as "absolute for the ministry" as other places, especially Texas/Oklahoma. Thank the Lord for that!

During the Midwest quarantines, operatives from LSM/DCP built upon those long-standing dissents, as they moved in to divide the LC's and plunder their spoils.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It seems like that spiritual pride, is leading to their fall. That was one way they opened the door to the enemy. May the Lord lead them into deep repentance. And may Jesus keep us all from spiritual pride and divisiveness, and other error, or shine into our hearts when we go away from Him. I just feel for all the individuals in the LC. The Lord can shine into our hearts and convict with the Holy Spirit, but it is harder to see, it seems like, if you are in a whole system of error, especially when you are being trained and indoctrinated to NOT LOOK!

Yes - think RCC or LDS or any of a number of organizations (using that term purposely). Better that they get torn apart than to continue, at least that's my opinion.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course. About the same time I was told that filing lawsuits was the same as "appealing to Caesar," as if suing Christians made us more scriptural than other Christians.

The Ohio LC's were never as extreme as other places, especially not in those early days. Some of the stuff I have read since leaving the LC's still makes my head spin -- like some of the abuses mentioned by the Casteels. It's no wonder they suffered so much retaliation.

There was, however, always an undercurrent of dissent in the region, that the Ohio leadership was not as "absolute for the ministry" as other places, especially Texas/Oklahoma. Thank the Lord for that!

During the Midwest quarantines, operatives from LSM/DCP built upon those long-standing dissents, as they moved in to divide the LC's and plunder their spoils.

Ohio, I can remember the time after the Lords table meeting in the Church in Diamond Bar, the leading brother asking the assembly to specifically label the tithes for DCP because that was where funds were needed. Of course, we were only to do so if the Spirit led. What a joke. It made me so uncomfortable to be sitting in the gathered saints listening to them discuss the lawsuits and the 'defence' of the ministry. I could not contribute.

Do they need tithes to be earmarked for specific purposes, to be in accordance with some law?? This was a large church with four languages meeting, in a big hall, divided for the table meeting. Is it illegal for a church to funnel tithes into their own personal lawyers pockets without knowledge or permission from the contributors? Crazy this is even a topic to discuss, of a 'church' and its' business dealings. Is that why they asked us to write where we wanted the money to go on the checks??

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes - think RCC or LDS or any of a number of organizations (using that term purposely). Better that they get torn apart than to continue, at least that's my opinion.

It is much more the better to be separated from the LC in my experience. Once they have decided one is on the 'outside' is when they give one the boot. Until then, I was just kept in the dark to their decisive practices. Everything I learned about what really goes on, I learned after coming out. Looking back, the paranoia surrounding me in the saints I knew was growing because of the operation of the Lord in my life. I was involved with a friend who was deeply committed to the SDA church, and learning as much as I could about that group because the Lord had really burdened me with sharing the gospel with her. Others in the Jehovas Witness church were coming to my door. Here I am, running to my LC sisters for council on how to deal with folks in cults. It is almost funny now. I got the strangest, curt, cryptic replies from them.....now I'm pretty sure they thought I was using double speak tactically towards them.....ironic since I might not be capable of that kind of mental tap dance. It is really no wonder it all came down like it did for us. Praise Jesus!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So, let's say the apostle John decided after so many years to capitalize on his bible knowledge and position and started Patmos Ministery....

That post.... was brilliant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, I can remember the time after the Lords table meeting in the Church in Diamond Bar, the leading brother asking the assembly to specifically label the tithes for DCP because that was where funds were needed. Of course, we were only to do so if the Spirit led. What a joke. It made me so uncomfortable to be sitting in the gathered saints listening to them discuss the lawsuits and the 'defence' of the ministry. I could not contribute.

Do they need tithes to be earmarked for specific purposes, to be in accordance with some law?? This was a large church with four languages meeting, in a big hall, divided for the table meeting. Is it illegal for a church to funnel tithes into their own personal lawyers pockets without knowledge or permission from the contributors? Crazy this is even a topic to discuss, of a 'church' and its' business dealings. Is that why they asked us to write where we wanted the money to go on the checks??

Officially the officers of a church organization must decide how to allocate offerings, choosing to forward designated offerings to another 503c4, or NOT. Designated offerings really mean nothing, in fact, the IRS can remove your tax-exempt status if tax-exempt offerings are passed thru to designated individuals. That did happen to at least one LC. It's against the law. Otherwise I could donate my salary to you, and you donate yours to me, and neither of us pay taxes on that offering.

LSM bullies member churches into funding DCP. They of course maintain plausible deniability, but there's no denying it. Quotas are spelled out based on attendance. In a sense LC's are complicit, instructing their people to give to DCP, stating of course that the offering should not be taken from their regular giving. In 2002 after the "Phoenix Accord" where all the Midwest and Blended leaders agreed to be nice to each other, we were instructed to send a check monthly to DCP. That ended when they quarantined us.

In the Midwest, we were "taxed" by both Anaheim and Cleveland. I always had a running battle with the elder over this. He would pad our meeting stats in order to look good during the elders meetings, but I was treasurer and knew that would increase our "taxes." Every month we battled who would get paid, the bank, the utilities, or headquarters. We obviously couldn't meet all our commitments.

One day I got a note saying, "if you don't give Cleveland more money, then full-timers don't eat." Since my team had no control over either the church offering or the church expenses, I rejected the insinuation that I was starving little kids. I resigned on the spot.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It is much more the better to be separated from the LC in my experience. Once they have decided one is on the 'outside' is when they give one the boot. Until then, I was just kept in the dark to their decisive practices. Everything I learned about what really goes on, I learned after coming out. Looking back, the paranoia surrounding me in the saints I knew was growing because of the operation of the Lord in my life. I was involved with a friend who was deeply committed to the SDA church, and learning as much as I could about that group because the Lord had really burdened me with sharing the gospel with her. Others in the Jehovas Witness church were coming to my door. Here I am, running to my LC sisters for council on how to deal with folks in cults. It is almost funny now. I got the strangest, curt, cryptic replies from them.....now I'm pretty sure they thought I was using double speak tactically towards them.....ironic since I might not be capable of that kind of mental tap dance. It is really no wonder it all came down like it did for us. Praise Jesus!

Out of irony comes forth wisdom!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Officially the officers of a church organization must decide how to allocate offerings, choosing to forward designated offerings to another 503c4, or NOT. Designated offerings really mean nothing, in fact, the IRS can remove your tax-exempt status if tax-exempt offerings are passed thru to designated individuals. That did happen to at least one LC. It's against the law. Otherwise I could donate my salary to you, and you donate yours to me, and neither of us pay taxes on that offering.

LSM bullies member churches into funding DCP. They of course maintain plausible deniability, but there's no denying it. Quotas are spelled out based on attendance. In a sense LC's are complicit, instructing their people to give to DCP, stating of course that the offering should not be taken from their regular giving. In 2002 after the "Phoenix Accord" where all the Midwest and Blended leaders agreed to be nice to each other, we were instructed to send a check monthly to DCP. That ended when they quarantined us.

In the Midwest, we were "taxed" by both Anaheim and Cleveland. I always had a running battle with the elder over this. He would pad our meeting stats in order to look good during the elders meetings, but I was treasurer and knew that would increase our "taxes." Every month we battled who would get paid, the bank, the utilities, or headquarters. We obviously couldn't meet all our commitments.

One day I got a note saying, "if you don't give Cleveland more money, then full-timers don't eat." Since my team had no control over either the church offering or the church expenses, I rejected the insinuation that I was starving little kids. I resigned on the spot.

Wow. Just shocking. So LSM is taking from the LCs individual collection in addition to/separately from the book sales? Is that right? That is a tough spot you were in. Starving fulltimers. That made me laugh. They were very well taken care of. The ones serving on my campus were received into all the saints homes and fed well by many families in Huntington, and Anaheim, and probably homes in between. I know, because I was with them, often.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Out of irony comes forth wisdom!

Let's hope! :-)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Cal

That post.... was brilliant.

It said it all, huh.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Wow. Just shocking. So LSM is taking from the LCs individual collection in addition to/separately from the book sales? Is that right? That is a tough spot you were in. Starving fulltimers. That made me laugh. They were very well taken care of. The ones serving on my campus were received into all the saints homes and fed well by many families in Huntington, and Anaheim, and probably homes in between. I know, because I was with them, often.

The lawsuit against the Harvest House Publishers was taken to the Texas Supreme Court and then to the United States Supreme Court costing the saints over $13Million. The La Palma campus cost over $30 Million, and add to that all the renovations they have done. After they milked the Midwest dry, then they knew it was time to excommunicate us. Then to add insult to injury, they tried to steal all of our meeting halls. The LC's only exist to feed the hungry monster in Anaheim.

In the midst of it all, I finally begun to realize how far off the movement had gone, so I quietly left.

[Boxjobox]

Rational Christians I think would ask themselves at this point what LSM has to do with the whole concept of the local church. Why use a term "local" if it's married to LSM, and since its married to LSM, wouldn't the proper wife drop her name "the church in xxx" and openly declare her marriage to her head LSM? It really should be called "LSM in xxx".
A simple bible study would-should show that the head of the church is Jesus, the Christ and that the blueprint for the church and the Christian is the scripture. When the marriage to LSM occurred in the mid-80's, after what I perceived to be about a 10 year courtship, the head of the LCs and the individual members became LSM, and the content of the LCs and the guiding principles of the individual members became LSM material. So the head of the church was no longer the one God gave the church as head and the blueprint for the churches and the members was no longer the scripture but LSM. A rational, bible reading Christian should realize this is what occurred. The whole indoctrination of deputy authority, apostle of the 1st, 2nd kind, the "new way", the pledging of the LC as one with LSM etc., should have registered with the members, and particularly the elders- the overseers, the ones watching the flocks that a spiritual error was occurring. But the 10 year courtship where WL/LSM slowly got a foot in the door, then sat on the couch and sweet talked the betrothed, and then moved in, and then seduced, and then controlled-- a rational believer should have kicked the bum out a long time ago! The divorce from Christ the head and the replacement with the LSM seductor is spiritual adultry- it is gross sin!
The remedy is to repent, return to your husband, return to the scripture and clean out all the belongings that the seducer brought in. This is the rational, spiritual way of dealing with this error. The Minoru's of the "recovery" need to come to grip with this rational view.

[Curious]

All of their judgements that have been crafted in their thinking about 'degraded Christianity are roosting in their own nest! Wow. Its amazing how that Scripture... or spiritual law expressed in the Scripture 'judge not least you judge yourself' is so certain and sure. So well expressed boxjobox. They are well and truly stuck in a very stuck place!!

[Boxjobox]

Minoru, et al in some position in an undefined organization labeled " the Lord's Recovery" are standing at the crossroads. I would urge them to consider the words of the apostle John who directed us to look and return to "that which was from the beginning". Taking the stand as the church in a city is not a business proposition, nor is it a boastful power trip. It should be a very humble- clothed in humility, act of forsaking all that resulted from those over the history of the church who did not return to "that which was from the beginning". The RC which was a religious/political power trip is always standing before us as a warning sign not to go down that road. The WL/LSM fiasco is along the same vein. I would urge all those meeting as a local church to turn away from that road, to turn back to what was from the beginning- the love of meeting in the Lord's name, the rejection of positions, names, titles, a return to scripture, a genuine love of the Lord's people, and put on Christ in a real way- with humility, love, kindness, simplicity, grace and purpose of serving our head-Jesus. Do it for the sake of truth, for the sake of God's will, for the sake of the unsaved, and for your own sakes.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Minoru, et al in some position in an undefined organization labeled " the Lord's Recovery" are standing at the crossroads. I would urge them to consider the words of the apostle John who directed us to look and return to "that which was from the beginning". Taking the stand as the church in a city is not a business proposition, nor is it a boastful power trip. It should be a very humble- clothed in humility, act of forsaking all that resulted from those over the history of the church who did not return to "that which was from the beginning". The RC which was a religious/political power trip is always standing before us as a warning sign not to go down that road. The WL/LSM fiasco is along the same vein. I would urge all those meeting as a local church to turn away from that road, to turn back to what was from the beginning- the love of meeting in the Lord's name, the rejection of positions, names, titles, a return to scripture, a genuine love of the Lord's people, and put on Christ in a real way- with humility, love, kindness, simplicity, grace and purpose of serving our head-Jesus. Do it for the sake of truth, for the sake of God's will, for the sake of the unsaved, and for your own sakes.

Amen, Boxjobox