LC turned me into a leftist

Hi everyone!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Long story short, I was involved in LC in the Midwest for a good 4 years. I was gained on campus when I was a freshman. Was very active on campus. Been to all training and conferences I could afford to go to. Loved spending time with the saints. Dropped out of all other extracurriculars by the end of those 4 years. Lost almost all other contacts as well.

Looking back I've never been that depressed or anxious in any other situations. The amount of abuse and stress I was under- kinda unreal to even think about it. Having lived with a racist/white supremacist roommate who was the personification of passive aggressiveness makes everything so much easier in comparison. I'm in grad school studying psychology because, one, I really want to figure out what's wrong with me and second, I'm so intrigued by social psychology, especially theories on cults and trauma. I made it my area of focus and I love what I do. I guess in a way I have to thank LC for that, haha.

Been in behavioral therapy for two years and I can't praise it enough. Therapy saved my life. It rebuilt me as a person from thought processes to actions. I was so damaged and biased and narrow minded I would literally gasp reading some of my old journals from LC years. I didn't sound like a real person; everything on those pages sounded very manufactured and... fake. I was so lost that I didn't feel safe to be honest with myself even, what a tragedy.

Going back to the title. I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years. The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups... Just unbelievable.

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways. And I don't have to figure everyone out, I can just accept people as who they are. My friends are amazing, I love my school, and I'm doing everything I can to help out my community and protect those that are marginalized. When we take care of those that are most vulnerable, we will all be better off.

That'll be it for today. If you've read till this far, I appreciate your attention and time. Much love to you all. Take care.

[countmeworthy]

The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups...

You hit the nail on the head... I do think they vilify Christianity more than they do the LGBTQ community. They have no clue how to point people to Christ.

Thanks for sharing...Blessings and God's Love envelop you leading you to all Truth

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

You hit the nail on the head... I do think they vilify Christianity more than they do the OH BTW community. They have no clue how to point people to Christ.

Thanks for sharing...Blessings and God's Love envelop you leading you to all Truth

Thanks for responding! Appreciate it.
And yes, I totally agree. The LC vilify Christianity more than any other communities. Which is so strange... But totally fits into a cult's motives.

Thanks again, countmeworthy. God bless.

[aron]

Bateson's theory of the double bind was easily one of the most liberating things that I ever read. Godspeed you on your journey.

[Nell]

Welcome, QOTSA

You may be interested in several books written by a woman former member, Jane Carole Anderson. Her first book was The Thread of Gold and is her testimony beginning in her childhood through her exit from the LC. Her newest book is A Woman of Chayil [khah’-yil] which, in Jane's words, "takes an in-depth look at a huge, long-term sin in the body of Christ. This hidden spiritual cancer in the church has been growing for almost two millennia in the wrong relationships that exist between Christian women and Christian men."

In addition, Jane says:
"Let me be clear that I do not consider myself to be a feminist. Rather, I am a free woman in Christ. I have written this book from my perspective as a Christian woman who spent many years in enabling silence, having been subdued and suppressed by numerous Christian men who believed their wrong treatment of me was according to God and His Word. They believed that the Bible they held in their hands supported and even mandated their dominating behavior."

Jane made many of the observations you have made, but takes a different path which you may find interesting as well as biblical.

https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jane-Ca...ole%20Anderson

Again, welcome--
Nell

[UntoHim]

QOTSA,

Thank you so much for taking the leap from "long time lurker" to "first time poster". If your first post is any indication, you will quickly become a valued contributor to our little forum. Please consider registering for the forum by shooting an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com and include your desired UserName (I don't think anybody has take QOTSA yet!)

I had to chuckle just a bit at the title of your opening post. Of course I wasn't chuckling when I read "I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years". It's very sad and a shame to the Lord that any Christian group or association could foster an atmosphere of unrighteousness or injustice, especially to women and children. I'm sure you've been through some of the numerous threads where the truth has come out about the abject unrighteousness and injustice perpetrated upon sisters/women in the "Ministry Office" of the Living Stream Ministry. No public apology has come forth. Though Witness Lee and his son Phillip are now dead, many of the men who promoted and exalted them are still in leadership positions in the movement.

I did want to make a quick comment about the wider issue of being "turned into a leftist". If the scriptures are any gauge, God is neither "left" nor "right". If the record of the Gospels are true and accurate, Jesus Christ was neither "left" nor "right". Maybe the jury is still out on the Holy Spirit, but since He was sent by the Father and speaks only what the Lord Jesus tells him to speak....I'll go out on a limb and say the same thing about Him.

Seriously though, I do find it a huge failure and shame to 21st century Christians that the church in general is not widely considered as a promoter and supporter of social justice. Please understand I am not referring to the most "political" of issues per se, but only to the raw injustices perpetrated upon the most vulnerable in our society. God's people should be the first to come to the aid of these people, and not be heaping condemnation upon them. The Lord Jesus spent at least as much time healing the sick, rebuking the hypocrites and loving on the scored and outcast as he did preaching and teaching.

I will leave you with Psalm 89:14:
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.
-

[Cal]

Originally Posted by QOTSA

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways.

This part of tells me you are going to be okay.

Take care.

You too. God speed.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by QOSTA

Thanks for responding! Appreciate it.
And yes, I totally agree. The LC vilify Christianity more than any other communities. Which is so strange... But totally fits into a cult's motives.

Thanks again, countmeworthy. God bless.

I appreciate your testimony about the LC. I was involved in the church for 13 years decades ago [ see my signature line.] How long were you involved with the LC? How recently did you drop out? I'm interested in knowing to what degree it remains like it was when I was in it.

[happiernow]

Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by happiernow

Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!

Hey Ladies,
I am a woman as well. I don't consider myself a feminist.. just feminine. I am compassionate person. I try very had not to be judgmental but I am cautious of controlling people. I am especially cautious of religious people!!

God bless you and may He use you both / us mightily for His Kingdom. He has our backs!

Carol

[Cal]

The Old Testament is full of calls for social justice--usually concerning justice and care for the vulnerable (widows and orphans, who in those days were extremely vulnerable).

The Church can and should be involved in this effort. How can we say we care about people if we are not willing to help them with their most practical needs? Certainly everyone's spiritual needs are the long-term priority, but often their physical and emotional needs are the short-term priority--and sometimes the best way to affect the long term need is to focus on the short-term one.

I'm not for "back room and brass-knuckle" politics. But I think there are appropriate ways we can be involved and I think doing so gives glory to God and advances his Kingdom.

I think God is always pleased when we selflessly help "the least of these."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hey Ladies,
I am a woman as well. I don't consider myself a feminist.. just feminine. I am compassionate person. I try very had not to be judgmental but I am cautious of controlling people. I am especially cautious of religious people!!

God bless you and may He use you both / us mightily for His Kingdom. He has our backs!

Carol

LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!

Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially. Boy... has he been SILENT on our very honest, forthright positive experience Bojobox and I had in San Diego.

I don't know why the Holy Spirit decided to shed Light on the church in San Diego. He is up to something. This conversation was GOD'S DOING. He used Bojobox to bring our experience to the forefront for a reason.

God bless Evangelical anyway. The LORD knows His sheep. Nothing is too difficult for GOD to do. The true believers, the true church, the BRIDE of Christ is NOT THE LSM. And He is going to purge the LSM. Don't know when or how. WAIT FOR IT.

Blessings to you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially. Boy... has he been SILENT on our very honest, forthright positive experience Bojobox and I had in San Diego.

I don't know why the Holy Spirit decided to shed Light on the church in San Diego. He is up to something. This conversation was GOD'S DOING. He used Bojobox to bring our experience to the forefront for a reason.

God bless Evangelical anyway. The LORD knows His sheep. Nothing is too difficult for GOD to do. The true believers, the true church, the BRIDE of Christ is NOT THE LSM. And He is going to purge the LSM. Don't know when or how. WAIT FOR IT.

Blessings to you.

Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego, but I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged, and the issue of LGBTXYZ I can't recall ever being mentioned. There is no sexism either, unless we think that to mean that females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa. Sadly, that is a common definition of sexism today.

The claims of sexism by the OP, are of course with respect to the modern standards. However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity. I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words. The LC do not go to such extremes, but I think it works - the out of wedlock pregnancy rate would be lower in the LC than say the Baptist church and Pentecostal churches, applying the biblical principle of marrying rather than burning. This is because in the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating". Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating. Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there. The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego,

Sure you can brother. You choose not to and that is your prerogative. People who I have shared how it was when I got saved and experienced the church life respond positively. They can't imagine our meetings, our fellowship from home to home. YOU CAN! YOU CAN IDENTIFY. But because we are no longer a part of the tumbleweed the LC became, and you love and are loyal to the LSM, you won't comment on our experiences. I am glad you have been reading them though. Thank you.

You wrote:

I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

Briefly, women in the LC/LSM have no leadership roles. Sure they can 'prophesy', which we used to call 'testify' and play the piano, be in charge of 'childrens meeting', cook, clean and fellowship. That's all I will say about that... no need to discuss it.

As for reaching the LGBTQXYZORST, very, very, VERY few Christians know how to reach them. Why do you think the LBGBTQ community has gone 'viral'? I bet JESUS knows how to reach them. It's a piece of cake to HIM. Nothing is too hard for HIM. But He gave us authority and power, Wisdom, Revelation, and Insight on how to reach them. And we don't know how to use our God given anointing in reaching them. The 'law of sin and death' surely can't! It can't reach the heterosexual person. Ya think the law of sin and death is going to fare better with the LGBTQ community?

Hmmm.. I wonder how Jesus would reach them.

Maybe He would talk about Jeremiah 17:9 to them.. explaining how “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Perhaps He would explain what it is to be unequally yoked and the danger of being unequally yoked. And His Loving Kindness, compassion, and Love would convict them, not condemn them. Maybe He would tell them all what David went through and how he prayed for God to create in him a clean heart. Who knows what Jesus would say to pull them to HIMSELF.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes,

Not anymore??? Oh. Good to know.

husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged,

Oh yeah.. and they will make it known!!! I remember a newlywed couple in SAN DIEGO, who were 'counseled' to stop sitting together at the meetings.

However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Yep.. religion always seems to rear its ugly head... even in the early church!

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity.

There are so many 'flavors' and 'varieties' in Christianity.. from the luke warm to the ice cold.

I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words.

I've seen that too. I had a neighbor once who did not cut her hair. I went to her 'church' once. All the women had their hair in a bun. Men sat on one side. Women on the other.

the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating".

What's the divorce rate in the LC/LSM? I know it's not as low as you may think it is. Reading about the marital problems caused by the LSM teachings is pretty sad. Even if they remain married, there are a lot of unhappy married couples in the LC/LSM ministry.

Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating.

I would not know.

Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there.

Me either.

The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.

Yeppers. I witnessed it first hand.

Blessings to you Evangelical.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Thank you Ohio. I very much appreciate your comment. I often feel ignored here. But that's ok... most of the time the brothers here are arguing, bantering back and forth with Evangelical especially.

No, no ... CMW no one is ignoring you, at least not me. You brighten my day with all your smilies.

And besides, it's better to be ignored, than constantly insulted by some of the guys around here.

You and I are of the few who are willing to admit the LC's were once a great place to be.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

You wrote: Briefly, women in the LC/LSM have no leadership roles. Sure they can 'prophesy', which we used to call 'testify' and play the piano, be in charge of 'childrens meeting', cook, clean and fellowship. That's all I will say about that... no need to discuss it.

I appreciate you inviting me to comment on San Diego, I enjoyed what you wrote about the positive experiences.

Sometimes I envy the children's meeting, they get to play games, cook, run around and have fun. Why can't a man do that? Because he'll be accused of being a pdf file, that's why.

I don't really buy the claims of "oppression" and "sexism" because "women can't be leaders". Not exactly a "third world problem". I think it is very modern American, and acceptable today, but is it scriptural, does it align with early church practice? The Catholic and Orthodox church says no! And many others, until they were infiltrated with "the worlds" idea of how family should be, which includes, two lesbians and a test tube baby. Am I right? "oppression", "sexism", this is an American thing, because I have traveled Asia, and women are quite happy letting men have the leadership role in church. Not all women want to be leaders. Not all women agree with you. They are quite happy letting the men lead at church, and for sure they will "rule the roost" at home.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

As for reaching the LGBTQXYZORST, very, very, VERY few Christians know how to reach them. Why do you think the LBGBTQ community has gone 'viral'? I bet JESUS knows how to reach them. It's a piece of cake to HIM. Nothing is too hard for HIM. But He gave us authority and power, Wisdom, Revelation, and Insight on how to reach them. And we don't know how to use our God given anointing in reaching them. The 'law of sin and death' surely can't! It can't reach the heterosexual person. Ya think the law of sin and death is going to fare better with the LGBTQ community?

Hmmm.. I wonder how Jesus would reach them.

Maybe He would talk about Jeremiah 17:9 to them.. explaining how “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Perhaps He would explain what it is to be unequally yoked and the danger of being unequally yoked. And His Loving Kindness, compassion, and Love would convict them, not condemn them. Maybe He would tell them all what David went through and how he prayed for God to create in him a clean heart. Who knows what Jesus would say to pull them to HIMSELF.

It's harder because they are taught they are born that way and have science and society to back them up. If you challenge that even by asking them an innocent question they will go on the defensive.

If I had a choice between a normal average person and a person who was a hardened LG whatever, I would choose the average person. Why? Because Jesus chose average people. None of the 12 he chose were extreme sinners, and by that I mean they were not engaged in what God would consider to be an abomination - prostitutes, idolatory, homosexuality etc. If so, at least one of his disciples would have been LGBT. The bible never records Jesus meeting an LGBT person, bible authors were so ashamed they thought it best to omit. That may seem harsh, but it's true. No mention of anything like that. No mention of orgy, homosexuality etc in ancient pagan Rome? I find it hard to believe that it is omitted from the bible because it never happened.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Oh yeah.. and they will make it known!!! I remember a newlywed couple in SAN DIEGO, who were 'counseled' to stop sitting together at the meetings.

It depends on the couple. If they are kissing and what not, I think I will say something to them. It's distracting, it's rude, some want to use the church meeting like a date night, absolutely no interest in what is going on.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Yep.. religion always seems to rear its ugly head... even in the early church!

I don't think it was religion, it was how God ordained it to be, through Paul. The veil is a sign of submission, according to Genesis, God created Adam first then "the woman", who did not even get a proper name until she sinned, becoming known as Eve.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, no ... CMW no one is ignoring you, at least not me. You brighten my day with all your smilies.

Awwwwww

And besides, it's better to be ignored, than constantly insulted by some of the guys around here.

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!! There is a lot of this instead of a lot of

You and I are of the few who are willing to admit the LC's were once a great place to be.

I know!! What's up with that?? Btw, I have been connecting with a brother who was in San Diego when I was there. We knew each other as best as a brother and sister could. He posted once on the forum but has a very hard time trying to figure out how the forum works. He even noted it when he posted. Not knowing who it was, I of all people helped him navigate it. He still has trouble. I sent him the letter John wrote (copied and pasted) He is the one who coined 'ELSIE the cow' to me. He has been out of the LC almost as long as I have been. But has attended meetings in Wisconsin where he has been living a very long time.

You know that thread on the church in San Diego 'history'? I cut and pasted every single post and sent them to him today. I tell you, most of us saints in San Diego from back in the day have very fond memories!

Btw... I am writing a blog here... so watch for it. and have the ready.

Love ya brother! Showers of blessings till we arrive and beyond.
Carol

Originally Posted by Nell

Welcome, QOTSA

You may be interested in several books written by a woman former member, Jane Carole Anderson. Her first book was The Thread of Gold and is her testimony beginning in her childhood through her exit from the LC. Her newest book is A Woman of Chayil [khah’-yil] which, in Jane's words, "takes an in-depth look at a huge, long-term sin in the body of Christ. This hidden spiritual cancer in the church has been growing for almost two millennia in the wrong relationships that exist between Christian women and Christian men."

In addition, Jane says:
"Let me be clear that I do not consider myself to be a feminist. Rather, I am a free woman in Christ. I have written this book from my perspective as a Christian woman who spent many years in enabling silence, having been subdued and suppressed by numerous Christian men who believed their wrong treatment of me was according to God and His Word. They believed that the Bible they held in their hands supported and even mandated their dominating behavior."

Jane made many of the observations you have made, but takes a different path which you may find interesting as well as biblical.

https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jane-Ca...ole%20Anderson

Again, welcome--
Nell

Thanks so much for the book recommendations, Nell! Appreciate it. I will check them out.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

QOTSA,

Seriously though, I do find it a huge failure and shame to 21st century Christians that the church in general is not widely considered as a promoter and supporter of social justice. Please understand I am not referring to the most "political" of issues per se, but only to the raw injustices perpetrated upon the most vulnerable in our society. God's people should be the first to come to the aid of these people, and not be heaping condemnation upon them. The Lord Jesus spent at least as much time healing the sick, rebuking the hypocrites and loving on the scored and outcast as he did preaching and teaching.

I will leave you with Psalm 89:14:
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.
-

Thank you so much for saying that, UnToHim. My thought exactly. Not to trivialize the Bible, but so many parts of the New Testament reminds me of FDR's New Deal. We gotta take care of the elderly, the youth, the unemployed, the sick, etc. Things will look so different if everyone can live with dignity. If the church would prioritize advancing welfare for all, wouldn't that be great?

Again, thank you. I very much appreciate your comment.

Originally Posted by Igzy

This part of tells me you are going to be okay.
You too. God speed.

Thank you for your goodwill, Igzy. Appreciate it.

Originally Posted by zeek

I appreciate your testimony about the LC. I was involved in the church for 13 years decades ago [ see my signature line.] How long were you involved with the LC? How recently did you drop out? I'm interested in knowing to what degree it remains like it was when I was in it.

Hi Zeek! Thank you for your comment.
I was involved in the LC from mid 2011 to late 2015. Had to move to a new place and start over because it wasn't easy to cut all ties.
I'll refrain from making comments on people in my LC because I'm still processing my relationships with those folks and it wouldn't be fair if they couldn't respond to my claims. My guess is the LC I was involved in might look very different from the LC you experienced. My LC was small, about 20-30 regulars, mainly comprised of young professionals and college students (it was in a small Midwest college town). Home meetings, prayer meetings and Lord's Table would take place every week.

Originally Posted by happiernow

Hi QOTSA,

Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm really glad to hear that you're doing well after your time with the LC. I have a similar experience-- behavioral therapy saved my life, and my experience in the LC has turned me into a really strong feminist and social justice advocate.

Thank you again for sharing, and if you ever want to chat, feel free to reach out to me!

Hi happiernow,

Thank you for your comment. I read your post (without details) and, my heart broke for you. Your experience in LC doesn't define you. I believe you and I support you. You're worthy.

I'm so new to this forum! Haven't figured out how to direct message yet. I would love to chat with you! You sound like a wonderful and amazing individual. Much love.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Old Testament is full of calls for social justice--usually concerning justice and care for the vulnerable (widows and orphans, who in those days were extremely vulnerable).

The Church can and should be involved in this effort. How can we say we care about people if we are not willing to help them with their most practical needs? Certainly everyone's spiritual needs are the long-term priority, but often their physical and emotional needs are the short-term priority--and sometimes the best way to affect the long term need is to focus on the short-term one.

I'm not for "back room and brass-knuckle" politics. But I think there are appropriate ways we can be involved and I think doing so gives glory to God and advances his Kingdom.

I think God is always pleased when we selflessly help "the least of these."

Igzy! Thank you for this comment. I'm with you 100%. Maslow's hierarchy of need lays it out pretty plainly: Any spiritual pursuit simply can't take place unless people are fed, sheltered, and safe. It's pretty common sense. People need to face reality.

I took your last sentence as words of encouragement. Thank you. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Ohio

LC leaders have no idea how oppressive their program really is. They often run the LC's like the military complex. Reading some of your stories reminds me of how frustrated the sisters were back when I was in the LC system.

LC leaders for decades have grossly misrepresented our Lord and Heavenly Father. Reminds me of that Bible verse in Romans chapter 2, "God's name is cursed among the nations because of you."

When I was there, I often heard something like, "If you leave the church, leave like a gentleman," implying that we should say nothing at all when we leave.

This forum exists to give voice to those who have decided to leave and speak up!

Thank you, Ohio. I agree with the misrepresentation you mentioned. A lot of what's going on in LC and Christianity is not a fair and just representation of who God is. May He be merciful.

O-H-I-O! Ohio rocks. God bless.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego, but I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged, and the issue of LGBTXYZ I can't recall ever being mentioned. There is no sexism either, unless we think that to mean that females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa. Sadly, that is a common definition of sexism today.

The claims of sexism by the OP, are of course with respect to the modern standards. However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity. I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words. The LC do not go to such extremes, but I think it works - the out of wedlock pregnancy rate would be lower in the LC than say the Baptist church and Pentecostal churches, applying the biblical principle of marrying rather than burning. This is because in the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating". Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating. Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there. The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.

Evangelical. Thank you for your input. There are couple things I wanted to talk about but how about we start with one.

What is your understanding on sexism? I'm also in Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies and by no means the "common definition of sexism today" has ever revolved around "females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa". Sexism is, and has always been about "the prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender." Note here that by definition, sexism can affect either gender.

And I apologize if I haven't made it clearer. When I talked about sexism exhibited in the LC, I was referring to misogyny, which stands for dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. From my experience, there certainly is prejudice against women in LC. I'm taking your comment "there's no dress code" at face value; Sure, different localities might have different practices. I'll just ask you one thing: Who do you see, in the leadership circle of LC, is a woman? And whom among those women that you considered leaders in the LC community, is not some elder/male leader's wife, sister, daughter? I'm genuinely curious if you know any sister that is in leadership position because of and only because of her spirituality.

That's the thing. Sexism to me is all about power dynamics. Men hold positions of power in the LC system. Men have all the representation in leadership. There are at least the same number of women, if not more, in the LC system. Why aren't women represented in positions of power and be involved in high level decision making? There are and always have been spiritual giants that are women. When voices from one gender are not heard but rather ignored, whatever the situation is, there is a problem.

I appreciate you bringing up the historical viewpoint. If you think people then got things right and you would rather live according to those standards, well, I'm fairly certain that I know much more about you as a person and a believer than how much info you revealed about yourself on this forum.

Thank you for your input. Looking forward to seeing your reply.

For the admin of this forum,

Thank you so much for allowing me to speak my mind. I appreciate that more than you think. Take care.

[UntoHim]

That's what this forum is all about. Please consider registering by shooting an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com (include your desired UserName) Then you will not have the inconvenience of your posts having to go through the moderation queue. In any event, I think everyone has really enjoyed your views and understandings of the Local Church experience from a women's point of view, something that is sorely lacking around this place!

Your brother who is unto Him
-

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I did want to make a quick comment about the wider issue of being "turned into a leftist". If the scriptures are any gauge, God is neither "left" nor "right". If the record of the Gospels are true and accurate, Jesus Christ was neither "left" nor "right".

I agree Unto, however regarding current events related to UC Berkeley I tend to find similarities between liberals and the LSM leadership. They tend to utilize similar tactics in regard to contrarian points of view.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hi countmeworthy,

I'm still here. I can't comment on San Diego, but I cannot draw any link between my experience and the claimed sexism and LGBTXYZQRSTism matters. So I don't have much to contribute except point out a few things.

In the LC I know, there are no dress codes, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends can sit together, although discouraged, and the issue of LGBTXYZ I can't recall ever being mentioned. There is no sexism either, unless we think that to mean that females are not allowed to use the male toilets and vice versa. Sadly, that is a common definition of sexism today.

The claims of sexism by the OP, are of course with respect to the modern standards. However in the early church, they had separated seating for males and females, and women wore head coverings. This persisted until well into the medieval times and later, and the modern concept of males and females together is fairly recent, historically speaking.

Rules about female/male interaction are not uncommon in my view in Christianity. I was once involved in an inter-denominational evangelical organization that believed men and women could not hold hands because the tension between them will lead to a 30 second flurry of activity and produce unwanted offspring. They warned us about holding hands in other words. The LC do not go to such extremes, but I think it works - the out of wedlock pregnancy rate would be lower in the LC than say the Baptist church and Pentecostal churches, applying the biblical principle of marrying rather than burning. This is because in the LC marriage is encouraged rather than so-called "Christian dating". Baptists seem to encourage long periods of "Christian dating" with many different people which is just a Christian version of worldly dating. Pentecostals, I don't know what is going on there. The pastors don't seem to address these matters according to the Bible and allow adulterous relationships to continue unchecked.

First ... hey high CMW. I've tried to call a few times.

And:

When I was in the local church I thought all sisters were angels. I would have never dreamt that some of them, married sisters even, were getting it on with Philip Lee at LSM. And Tim Lee was also getting it on with married sisters.

The sisters are angels!?! bahahahaha ... how naive I was back then.

And then I discovered that, Watchman Nee had nude movies of sisters.

I got an idea. Make all the sisters wear white covering from head to toe. At least they'll look like angels.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

First ... hey high CMW. I've tried to call a few times.

Hola Mr H
I lost most of my contact info when I replaced my phone with a new one. Leave me a voice mail as I don't have your phone# or text me.

Good to 'see' ya!

And:
When I was in the local church I thought all sisters were angels.

Oh! I've been called an angel on more than one occasion!! Then they get to know me.

I would have never dreamt that some of them, married sisters even, were getting it on with Philip Lee at LSM. And Tim Lee was also getting it on with married sisters.

The biggest atrocity was Lee covering up while chastising the Godly elders and saints...and the ELSIE diehards hiding their heads under the sand like ostriches. They see NOTHING. KNOW NOTHING.

The sisters are angels!?! bahahahaha ... how naive I was back then.

Hey! No sister is an 'angel' but there are some good women in the ELSIE as there are anywhere else. And don't get me started on the men of the ELSIE!

And then I discovered that, Watchman Nee had nude movies of sisters.

of Godly sisters?? oh let me back up.. a true Godly sister would not do that..but a fakey sister might. Just wondering if they were really fakey sisters or just secular women? And is there proof? or just someone's word?' At the end of the day, if he did, he has to answer to the LORD as do each and everyone of us for our actions. So I don't really give a bamboozol kittenkaboodle what Lee or Nee did anymore.

Btw.. there really are a lot of fakey believers both in the Elsie and in the Christian community. Jesus Himself told us there would be fakey Christians when He called the 'Christian' men workers of iniquities even though they cast out demons in the Name of Jesus and also prophesied in the Name of Jesus.

But those who still idolize Nee and Lee though denying it, should probably be made aware of their (N & L's) stained, blemished and flaw filled lives. HOWEVER.. those people most importantly need to be fed the Bread of Life and given to drink fresh living water.

One of the reasons the church in Tempe fell apart very early on is all we did was expose Lee and the religious system he was turning the church into. All the bashing, venting and exposing did not edify any of us. it was good to vent and expose no doubt but it needed to be tempered with our love for Jesus and our desire to be led by the Holy Spirit.

We let our lamps run out of oil, and did not know where to get fresh oil and it had been so long, most of us if not all of us forgot how to fill our lamps.

I got an idea. Make all the sisters wear white covering from head to toe. At least they'll look like angels.

They'd look more like sisters in law. Most nuns these days don't dress like that anymore but back in the 50s and 60s they covered everything but their faces.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The biggest atrocity was Lee covering up while chastising the Godly elders and saints...and the ELSIE diehards hiding their heads under the sand like ostriches. They see NOTHING. KNOW NOTHING.

Yes Lee did cover it up, and wouldn't deal with it. He lost his closest coworkers over it.

Lee expected us to give our all to his ministry. But he didn't give his all to it. He compromised his ministry for his profligate sons.

Everyone would have walked just like the coworkers but they didn't know about it ... cuz it was covered up.

[Intothewind]

Thank you for sharing. You are not alone.

Travel, spatially but more importantly culturally turns out to be a great liberal education

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

Everyone would have walked just like the coworkers but they didn't know about it ... cuz it was covered up.

Yes! That's why there was a need to speak lies about the elders who left. At the local level, a localities elders believed what they were being told. In turn brothers and sisters in each locality believed what they elders were saying. Speak a lie enough times and it becomes received as truth.
I've seen it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Yes! That's why there was a need to speak lies about the elders who left. At the local level, a localities elders believed what they were being told. In turn brothers and sisters in each locality believed what they elders were saying. Speak a lie enough times and it becomes received as truth.
I've seen it.

Amen Terry. Btw, I love your tagline. Right on with the neutral perspective.

Last year before the election Minoru actually told saints in a mini conference to pray that Trump would win. Because he said that would be the best environment for the gospel to go out and prosper.

In a meeting Ron said we should never hate anyone he said he couldn't believe how hated Trump was. Back in 2017 he said in a training he couldn't believe that sisters in the ftta we're crying and depressed over Hillary losing. This was a training and said get over it, Donald Trump is President.

He recently condemn the organized crime as lawlessness. And the BLM riots. But said nothing about the lefts violence and riots.

He said the pandemic isn't too serious because his sources. And doesn't believe anything the federal government blue states says. One reason he said was because blue states governments did nothing about the riots.

He said he doesn't believe in masks and said ifba mask was required to attend a meeting he would stay home. And that he believes saints staying home and meeting on zoom won't be raptured.

To end he said the vaccine is just a precursor for the beasts mark. And that when it comes people will voluntary compile or be forced to comply. Ron and the coworkers said they believe we're in the end days.

He recently condemn the organized crime as lawlessness. And the BLM riots. But said nothing about the lefts violence and riots.

I'm sorry I meant the rights violence and riots like the capital rights. And Ron is always condeming the states of New York and California and say they take the lead in setting the trend for sin, corruption and rebellion.

Ed Marks shared about a year ago that that he was disturbed by feminism becoming strong upon the young working sisters. Said they're smarter and more successful than the men. And therefore lead and are the head of the marriage. He believes women shouldn't be smarter or successful. When women come home they don't cook or take care of the children. Believes aren't working a lower paying job they should be home raising the kids.

Just a side bar. Recently a group of college planned to visit our locality. A sister coordinated the trip. The brothers in our locality we're deeply disturbed because a sister took the headship and lead. They were thinking of fellowshipping with the leading brothers in that locality to see why they allowed that to happen.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just a side bar. Recently a group of college planned to visit our locality. A sister coordinated the trip. The brothers in our locality we're deeply disturbed because a sister took the headship and lead. They were thinking of fellowshipping with the leading brothers in that locality to see why they allowed that to happen.

There are examples in Bible of sisters, females, taking a leading in some practical things. So if brothers will turn to Bible instead of Ron, Minoru or Ed, then idea of making problem of it will die.
One thing is teaching, but another is normal functioning. Sisters are also good in arrangement.
Jordan Peterson deals with equality in simply way.
All we are different. Not every man want to change tire or nail nail to wall.
Not every woman is good cook.
If in certain locality brothers could not be involved in this work then why not sister?

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

He said the pandemic isn't too serious because his sources. And doesn't believe anything the federal government blue states says. One reason he said was because blue states governments did nothing about the riots.

He said he doesn't believe in masks and said ifba mask was required to attend a meeting he would stay home. And that he believes saints staying home and meeting on zoom won't be raptured.

To end he said the vaccine is just a precursor for the beasts mark. And that when it comes people will voluntary compile or be forced to comply. Ron and the coworkers said they believe we're in the end days.

Hard to believe this. The FTTA requires the vaccine, Scatterday is very adamant about the covid dangers, none of the conference’s are in person, the semi annual is video. Sorry, but unless you have sources, evidence speaks otherwise.

Then Ron is in the minority. The Recovery is dependant on Rick Scatterday as he was Brother Lee's doctor and now is to the coworkers.

In the beginning of March last year Ron said God was answering his prayer to punish California and New York because they start and lead the trend in sin of the world. He is vaccinated but his new wife isn't. I either mentioned this in another post or this one. But he is against masks and mandates. Said it's Satan getting ready to have people take the mark of the beast willingly or by force. Ron also said that there is no scientific proof for masks effectiveness and if he is required to wear one to attend meetings he won't. Said those that meet on zoom aren't presenting their bodies and most likely won't get raptured. I think I mentioned that he said he had sources to proof that the federal government and blue states aren't telling the truth.

The rest of the coworkers take pandemic seriously. One closing bit. Ron has mentioned that the overcomers that rule the city of Las Vegas will tear and burn down the casinos and plant broccoli like God will command.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Hard to believe this. The FTTA requires the vaccine, Scatterday is very adamant about the covid dangers, none of the conference’s are in person, the semi annual is video. Sorry, but unless you have sources, evidence speaks otherwise.

I have definitely not watched this entire video, but around 30:30-33:00ish Ron speaks briefly about the vaccine. He does seem to be speaking of it as a precursor to the mark of the beast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnRoXo2nYsA

He may say more in other parts of the video, no idea, but I'm not going to spend the time listening to him.

Trapped

P.S. If you want to listen, I seriously recommend listening at double speed. It will sound normal. His regular speed is mind-numbingly slow.

[Zezima]

Thanks for posting, he mentioned digital money paving the way for the mark of the beast btw. It’s funny that he thinks because it’s happening in the USA that it means the end of the age, even though atrocities have been happening in other county for centuries. Very myopic.

But I know people who just finished a term in the ftta, and they LR is taking covid very seriously.

[Trapped]

Totally.

So the FTTA is back in-person? Is Ron still a trainer. Is he wearing a mask as he teaches people to give their lives to Witness Lee's ministry?

Trapped

Then Ron is in the minority. He said the vaccine could be used to get people use to government control. Minoru pretty much stays in the house and doesn't leave. James Lee said in the beginning of the pandemic and lockdowns that God is restricting the saints while He is judging and punishing the world. And that it's a testing and dealing for us.

GTCA has not happened as they are just doing virtual tours. Which is is prerecorded messages of saints in targeted migration cities sounding the trumpet to migrate.

One thing about minoru during early in the pandemic. He said saints were to pray which was spiritually working out and would emerge as muscle man to preach the gospel.

Back to Ron. He has taken the vaccine but doesn't believe in mandates. His Russian wife isn't vaccinated. The ftta is not requiring the vaccine anymore but will allow regular testing. Ron said he has the inside scoop that masks don't work and that the federal government and blue states aren't telling the truth about the pandemic. He said that if he is required to wear a mask to a meeting he won't. But then said saints need to present their bodies. So saints who remain on zoom most likely won't be raptured.

I have seen Ron outside the meetings. At a hotel during breakfast he and his wife sat at a table before getting food at a buffet. For a few minutes they sat there not talking. She got up and got all his food while he sat there. When they ate they still
said nothing. After the meetings of that conference his wife ran to him so happy hugging him. He didn't react much and just gave a brief smile. I guess no natural affection.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

So the FTTA is back in-person? Is Ron still a trainer. Is he wearing a mask as he teaches people to give their lives to Witness Lee's ministry?

Ftta is in person, but the attendees can’t go out into the community. Vaccine is required, no nights out. It’s pretty strict. Not sure what the unregistered person is taking about. Just look at ftta’s website

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Ftta is in person, but the attendees can’t go out into the community. Vaccine is required, no nights out. It’s pretty strict. Not sure what the unregistered person is taking about. Just look at ftta’s website

This is tongue-in-cheek, obviously, but I think your mistake is expecting Ron to behave in line with how he speaks on stage

"I will never go to a meeting if I have to wear a mask!" *goes to FTTA wearing mask to extol the greatness of WLee*

"I am God's deputy authority!" *Twists the Bible to oppress others*

Sometimes Ron will get "choked up" on stage talking passionately about something he wants the audience to emotionally respond to.....usually it has something to do with defending Witness Lee. But my contribution here is, Ron is not above saying one thing but yet doing another.

Trapped

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Then Ron is in the minority. The Recovery is dependant on Rick Scatterday as he was Brother Lee's doctor and now is to the coworkers.

In the beginning of March last year Ron said God was answering his prayer to punish California and New York because they start and lead the trend in sin of the world. He is vaccinated but his new wife isn't. I either mentioned this in another post or this one. But he is against masks and mandates. Said it's Satan getting ready to have people take the mark of the beast willingly or by force. Ron also said that there is no scientific proof for masks effectiveness and if he is required to wear one to attend meetings he won't. Said those that meet on zoom aren't presenting their bodies and most likely won't get raptured. I think I mentioned that he said he had sources to proof that the federal government and blue states aren't telling the truth.

The rest of the coworkers take pandemic seriously. One closing bit. Ron has mentioned that the overcomers that rule the city of Las Vegas will tear and burn down the casinos and plant broccoli like God will command.

Did he say it in message ?

It would be revolutionary! Lack of oneness in headquarter in Anaheim!

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Trapped

He may say more in other parts of the video, no idea, but I'm not going to spend the time listening to him.

Trapped

P.S. If you want to listen, I seriously recommend listening at double speed. It will sound normal. His regular speed is mind-numbingly slow.

I tryed too but having no time for him. Maaany saints believe, that he always is wise and perfect, just because of waaaay heeee speaaaaks.
I made speed x 1,75 but what for? They juts wake up as last group among many denominations.
Or.... this is smart plan, to show up and make refreshing statement to release tensity. To give narrative same as opposition can give.
That is why, Ron is "good cop", and doctor is kinda " negative".
So, again each viewer could be satisfied.

But now very seriously comment: This is very said that they lost people's trust. It is vvery hard to rebuild trust again. When some is lying many times, then saying truth is not trustworthy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is tongue-in-cheek, obviously, but I think your mistake is expecting Ron to behave in line with how he speaks on stage.

For some odd reason I expected the same from WL. Everyone around me basically said as much. TC had us all convinced that WL was *different* than all the lackeys around him.

Eventually I learned that WL and Company were not much different from today's politicians, "rules for thee but not for me."

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is tongue-in-cheek, obviously, but I think your mistake is expecting Ron to behave in line with how he speaks on stage

"I will never go to a meeting if I have to wear a mask!" *goes to FTTA wearing mask to extol the greatness of WLee*

"I am God's deputy authority!" *Twists the Bible to oppress others*

Sometimes Ron will get "choked up" on stage talking passionately about something he wants the audience to emotionally respond to.....usually it has something to do with defending Witness Lee. But my contribution here is, Ron is not above saying one thing but yet doing another.

Trapped

Fair, but unregistered is making claims that don’t match what’s happening.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Fair, but unregistered is making claims that don’t match what’s happening.

It's possible the time lag is the culprit here. One of unreg's posts said "in the beginning of March of last year, Ron......" Maybe Ron spoke against masks and things back then not realizing the how the pandemic would unfold over the next year and a half, and now Ron is wearing masks at meetings?

Trapped

Then it must be a consideration of the vaccine being volunteer or regular testing. As far as Ron it was a question and answer section. But he said it was question and response.

I touched on the matter of him saying saints have one foot in the church and another outside. Meaning they do things in their personal lives then come to the meeting. But those things are worldly and fleshly. He said brother and sisters were reporting other brothers and sisters social media posts of fine dining, drinking, dancing, fashion, sporting events and vacation ing. He concluded that going camping was the only acceptable thing to do. Minoru also shared a how message for a region that social media was a devilish device to push young people to be depressed and sometimes commit suicide.

I want to get your thoughts on two situations. When brother Lee was still alive a coworker showed him the cover of Christianity today. Basically the brother was condeming Christianity for putting a glamorous female on the cover and how degraded they had become. Brother saw it and turned away covering his face and walked away. He that the sight of glorifying the sinful flesh.

I tried to post on lgbtq posts but they were closed. Anyways, I checked the ftta recommendation form for two leading ones. They ask if the potential trainee is lgbtq or shows concerning behavior of it. A church kid was roomed with a homosexual who would look at him when he exercised. And according to him the roommate would enter the bathroom and look at him.

The church kid got very angry and almost came to blows many times. He got his parents involved and the trainers. But his roommate graduated and went back to a locality. This was recent. But, years ago a gay new one college student was kicked out of a church owned apartments. They said move out and go down the street where they allow it.

Ron spoke about this recently I will go back and listen to what He said directly and repost. As far as the vaccine requirement being dropped and regular testing being allowed that is what I heard. But it could change and is uncertain.

Ok. I went back and listed to the question and answer section from Ron. Here are detailed notes.

He said because the pandemic effects mainly the sick and elderly he therefore made a decision before God not to be ruled and controlled by fear.

Now Ron says the whole pandemic is political. He doesn't trust Fauci and relies on reliables. One being Rick Scatterday. Ron got the vaccine because of his age. He respects and obey s the government within it's limits but won't blindly follow.

Lsm requires vaccine for the trainees. Not sure about trainers. Inside the conference center masks are required. Rick Scatterday said typical surgical masks don't work. Ron believes people should be able to make their own decisions regarding their health.

Said he respects the elders and leading ones decisions regarding in person or zoom meetings. But meeting on zoom may be necessary because of the environment but it's abnormal and not the church. Because the church is the assembly of the called ones. So the church is the assembling in the meeting hall with no masks and no social distancing. Anaheim is still on zoom and Ron will stay home if masks and social distancing is required. So he will wait until it's normal with no restrictions. He had fellowship with coworkers regarding a bother who was a anti vaxxxer and spreading his view among the saints.

Went in the debate of vaccines. Of being vaccinated and unvaccinated being regularly tested. Attacked a saint's question for being concerned for their health because they wanted to meet in person but other saints aren't vaccinated, don't wear masks, don't wear them properly and don't social distance. The saint had underlying conditions and Ron said the saint was in the self.

He compared vaccinated and unvaccinated, masks anti mask, zoom and in person meetings to each other as living to God. Said it's the same as eating meat and keeping the sabbath or not. Concluding, Rick Scatterday is his go to for medical advice. Ron won't criticize, protest, object or judge what he doesn't agree to. He just won't go along with it. And that he won't let fear or control him because the enemy will manipulate any situation.

Feel free to give your thoughts as this is what saints are hearing.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

He compared vaccinated and unvaccinated, masks anti mask, zoom and in person meetings to each other as living to God. Said it's the same as eating meat and keeping the sabbath or not. Concluding, Rick Scatterday is his go to for medical advice. Ron won't criticize, protest, object or judge what he doesn't agree to. He just won't go along with it. And that he won't let fear or control him because the enemy will manipulate any situation.

Feel free to give your thoughts as this is what saints are hearing.

I will comment just last part.
On one hand, Ron himself is saying and warning, that this is pretaste of mark of beast. A lot of saints do agree with it.
But the same time, he is flattening meaning of this choice.
I am ready to believe, that this vaccine will not make demages in human body. Ok. But main point and context given by gov is " You have to, otherwise... problems with access to this or that". Sounds familiar?
So what I cry everywhere is , to not have worldly fear but fear of God.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

We have to keep sober mind, being awake, read Bible,unceasingly pray.
Without Sword which is Word of God, we will not separate soul from spirit.
I am glad to hear also, finally some wise words from brother Ron. The thing is, however, he is not first who recognize whole situation.
So, it is not only about celebrating days or eating vegetables.
Off course there should be a freedom for decision this or that, free of other's judging. But if we do not learn this lesson, what will be our next decision with mark of beast?
Are saints waiting for some animal? What is beast? Beast is Satan himself.
Where is Satan? He is spiritual person and he rules in sphere.
There are people and governments realizing his plan.
Everything from Rev will happen in physical reality.
Food is food. People are people. Nations are nations. This is real world.
That is why many saints alarm just to awake others.
Warning is: Be serious. Do not waste time. Seek our Lord all the time.
We have to learn very fast, why there are divisions among saints. Because of fleshly opinion.
But we do not fight against flesh...
We have to be really hidden in spirit as Ron is doing. I am really glad.
I hope, Lord will show him also more things to regulate from past, but it is up to Lord.
About You, unreg.
What is a purpose of asking for opinion?
Have you Your own conclusions? Some verses? I can be wrong, but it seems You are confused a little by many things.
In some threads was many things spoken about sweeping under the carpet sinful acts and covering sinful behavior.
There is nothing to comment. Bible comments this enough. The problem is local not general. There is certain brother with certain name. What others can comment? Very sad and that is it. What to do? Bible says what.
For now that is it from me.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ok. I went back and listed to the question and answer section from Ron. Here are detailed notes.

He said because the pandemic effects mainly the sick and elderly he therefore made a decision before God not to be ruled and controlled by fear.

Now Ron says the whole pandemic is political. He doesn't trust Fauci and relies on reliables. One being Rick Scatterday. Ron got the vaccine because of his age. He respects and obey s the government within it's limits but won't blindly follow.

Lsm requires vaccine for the trainees. Not sure about trainers. Inside the conference center masks are required. Rick Scatterday said typical surgical masks don't work. Ron believes people should be able to make their own decisions regarding their health.

Said he respects the elders and leading ones decisions regarding in person or zoom meetings. But meeting on zoom may be necessary because of the environment but it's abnormal and not the church. Because the church is the assembly of the called ones. So the church is the assembling in the meeting hall with no masks and no social distancing. Anaheim is still on zoom and Ron will stay home if masks and social distancing is required. So he will wait until it's normal with no restrictions. He had fellowship with coworkers regarding a bother who was a anti vaxxxer and spreading his view among the saints.

Went in the debate of vaccines. Of being vaccinated and unvaccinated being regularly tested. Attacked a saint's question for being concerned for their health because they wanted to meet in person but other saints aren't vaccinated, don't wear masks, don't wear them properly and don't social distance. The saint had underlying conditions and Ron said the saint was in the self.

He compared vaccinated and unvaccinated, masks anti mask, zoom and in person meetings to each other as living to God. Said it's the same as eating meat and keeping the sabbath or not. Concluding, Rick Scatterday is his go to for medical advice. Ron won't criticize, protest, object or judge what he doesn't agree to. He just won't go along with it. And that he won't let fear or control him because the enemy will manipulate any situation.

Feel free to give your thoughts as this is what saints are hearing.

Can you post a link to the audio of this?

Sure,here it's. He has a brother's only fellowship which was not recorded. On that Ron said saints who stay home when others are meeting in person most likely won't be raptured. Because they're choosing ease and comfort. Or being ruled and controlled by fear. The Question and Answer is the last video.

I have began posting here because my experience my entire life in each locality is you can't disagree with the ministry or coworkers. Further, you're in your mind and not touching and exercising the spirit.

https://www.norcalchurches.org/2021-...th-ron-kangas/

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ok. I went back and listed to the question and answer section from Ron. Here are detailed notes.

He said because the pandemic effects mainly the sick and elderly he therefore made a decision before God not to be ruled and controlled by fear.

Now Ron says the whole pandemic is political. He doesn't trust Fauci and relies on reliables. One being Rick Scatterday. Ron got the vaccine because of his age. He respects and obey s the government within it's limits but won't blindly follow.

Lsm requires vaccine for the trainees. Not sure about trainers. Inside the conference center masks are required. Rick Scatterday said typical surgical masks don't work. Ron believes people should be able to make their own decisions regarding their health.

Said he respects the elders and leading ones decisions regarding in person or zoom meetings. But meeting on zoom may be necessary because of the environment but it's abnormal and not the church. Because the church is the assembly of the called ones. So the church is the assembling in the meeting hall with no masks and no social distancing. Anaheim is still on zoom and Ron will stay home if masks and social distancing is required. So he will wait until it's normal with no restrictions. He had fellowship with coworkers regarding a bother who was a anti vaxxxer and spreading his view among the saints.

Went in the debate of vaccines. Of being vaccinated and unvaccinated being regularly tested. Attacked a saint's question for being concerned for their health because they wanted to meet in person but other saints aren't vaccinated, don't wear masks, don't wear them properly and don't social distance. The saint had underlying conditions and Ron said the saint was in the self.

He compared vaccinated and unvaccinated, masks anti mask, zoom and in person meetings to each other as living to God. Said it's the same as eating meat and keeping the sabbath or not. Concluding, Rick Scatterday is his go to for medical advice. Ron won't criticize, protest, object or judge what he doesn't agree to. He just won't go along with it. And that he won't let fear or control him because the enemy will manipulate any situation.

Feel free to give your thoughts as this is what saints are hearing.

Kind of iRonical that RK doesn’t want fear to “control” him, but thinks nothing of regularly using fear to control others.

On the other hand, his views may seem strange for California, but are fairly prevalent in the great state of Ohio.

If you want to know the unpopular truths on this pandemic, Joe Rogan’s recent podcast with the renowned Dr. Peter McCullough is incredibly informative.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Kind of iRonical that RK doesn’t want fear to “control” him, but thinks nothing of regularly using fear to control others.

On the other hand, his views may seem strange for California, but are fairly prevalent in the great state of Ohio.

If you want to know the unpopular truths on this pandemic, Joe Rogan’s recent podcast with the renowned Dr. Peter McCullough is incredibly informative.

Yeah let’s not turn this thread into a conspiracy promoting thread. That doctor is incredibly dishonest, uses half truths and spreads lies. He’s being sued by Baylor to stop using their credentials on his name, he’s being stripped of his board certification. Let’s not turn this thread into nonsense regardless how you feel about the pandemic.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Sure,here it's. He has a brother's only fellowship which was not recorded. On that Ron said saints who stay home when others are meeting in person most likely won't be raptured. Because they're choosing ease and comfort. Or being ruled and controlled by fear. The Question and Answer is the last video.

I have began posting here because my experience my entire life in each locality is you can't disagree with the ministry or coworkers. Further, you're in your mind and not touching and exercising the spirit.

https://www.norcalchurches.org/2021-...th-ron-kangas/

Unregistered,

Please consider registering for membership in this forum. If you are QOTSA, please login to post. Posting as unregistered is generally meant for 1-3 posts. You have established yourself with a much larger volume of posts.

Your contributions are valuable and noteworthy. It creates confusion when multiple anonymous posts, by multiple people, are created under the name single name “unregistered”.

It would help all of us if you would pick a name (Lefty?) and register for membership by sending a request to Reg4LCD@gmail.com.

Thanks for your interest and contributions to this forum.

Nell
Admin

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Yeah let’s not turn this thread into a conspiracy promoting thread. That doctor is incredibly dishonest, uses half truths and spreads lies. He’s being sued by Baylor to stop using their credentials on his name, he’s being stripped of his board certification. Let’s not turn this thread into nonsense regardless how you feel about the pandemic.

Just the facts, Ma'am, just the facts.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Yeah let’s not turn this thread into a conspiracy promoting thread. That doctor is incredibly dishonest, uses half truths and spreads lies. He’s being sued by Baylor to stop using their credentials on his name, he’s being stripped of his board certification. Let’s not turn this thread into nonsense regardless how you feel about the pandemic.

On the other hand, we have been told what to read and what not to read before. I will check out Peter McCullough for myself. Thanks, Ohio, for the tip.

When Lee told us not to read “Latent Power of the Soul” by Nee, then “Against the Tide” a Nee biography by Angus Kinnear, I went directly to the bookstore and bought both books and read them cover to cover almost in one sitting!

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

On the other hand, we have been told what to read and what not to read before. I will check out Peter McCullough for myself. Thanks, Ohio, for the tip.

When Lee told us not to read “Latent Power of the Soul” by Nee, then “Against the Tide” a Nee biography by Angus Kinnear, I went directly to the bookstore and bought both books and read them cover to cover almost in one sitting!

Nell

Haven’t heard of those books, what is the first one about and why did Lee speak against it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

On the other hand, we have been told what to read and what not to read before. I will check out Peter McCullough for myself. Thanks, Ohio, for the tip.

When Lee told us not to read “Latent Power of the Soul” by Nee, then “Against the Tide” a Nee biography by Angus Kinnear, I went directly to the bookstore and bought the books and read them cover to cover almost in one sitting!

Nell

Good for you, Nell! 45+ years ago, June of 1976, I was much more "compliant" than you, and I went home and threw Kinnear's book away.

When confusion troubled the churches of God, Apostle Paul never told people what not to read, rather he said to "prove by testing the will of God" (Romans 12.2) and to "test all things, holding on to what is true and good." (I Thess 5.21)

If our exodus from the LC's taught us anything, it is that we should investigate all prevailing narratives. We must have our own faith, not a second-hand faith from others. We should be like the Bereans who investigated. (Acts 17.10-11) We should never again be trapped by group think from those who controlled all the information we received.

During these insane days, real truth comes with a price. I no longer listen to "repeating heads." I only listen to those with skin in the game, who relay their message at some personal cost to themselves. This is exactly how the early church existed, flourished, and found the truth.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Haven’t heard of those books, what is the first one about and why did Lee speak against it?

Lee really didn't speak against the book itself. He just didn't think WE should read it because WE were babies. More below...

You can check out "Latent" here:
Latent Power of the Soul

or here for a free download.

“For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discover the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Heb. 4:12). The peril of the believer is to confuse the spirit for the soul and the soul for the spirit, and so be deceived into accepting the counterfeit of evil spirits to the unsettling of God’s work. The greatest advantage in knowing the difference between spirit and soul is perceiving the latent power of the soul and in understanding its falsification of the power of the Holy Spirit. Such knowledge is not theoretical but practical in helping people to walk in God’s way. In this book, Watchman Nee shares his insight on The Latent Power of The Soul, The Christian and Psychic Force, and Spirit Force vs Psychic Force. Nowadays the atmosphere is so charged with the commotion of all kinds of counterfeit that the Lord seems to be calling the Church to come to a higher ground. Today’s situation is perilous. May we “prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1Thes. 5:21)

Note the use of the word "nowadays". I believe the "atmosphere is" exponentially more charged today than it was when Nee wrote "Latent".

As I recall, Lee's warning about "Latent" was that we were all babies and couldn't handle the truth about the spirit world. Or, as stated above we would confuse the soul and spirit. He was right, I think. But, avoiding the issue by telling us not to read about it, would only prolong any confusion that may exist, and prolong ignorance of the topic we desperately needed to understand...especially today...2021. i.e., Prolong dependance on Lee for "truth" and interpretation of the word.

As for "Against the Tide", you can find it on the Internet. I don't remember seeing a good reason why Lee would tell us not to read the book. Maybe he didn't want us to read another author or give our money to another publisher.

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

Lee really didn't speak against the book itself. He just didn't think WE should read it because we were babies. More below...

You can check out "Latent" here:
Latent Power of the Soul

“For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discover the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Heb. 4:12). The peril of the believer is to confuse the spirit for the soul and the soul for the spirit, and so be deceived into accepting the counterfeit of evil spirits to the unsettling of God’s work. The greatest advantage in knowing the difference between spirit and soul is perceiving the latent power of the soul and in understanding its falsification of the power of the Holy Spirit. Such knowledge is not theoretical but practical in helping people to walk in God’s way. In this book, Watchman Nee shares his insight on The Latent Power of The Soul, The Christian and Psychic Force, and Spirit Force vs Psychic Force. Nowadays the atmosphere is so charged with the commotion of all kinds of counterfeit that the Lord seems to be calling the Church to come to a higher ground. Today’s situation is perilous. May we “prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1Thes. 5:21)

Note the use of the word "nowadays". I believe the "atmosphere is" exponentially more charged today than it was when Nee wrote "Latent".

As I recall, Lee's warning about "Latent" was that we were all babies and couldn't handle the truth about the spirit world. Or, as stated above we would confuse the soul and spirit. He was right, I think. But, avoiding the issue by telling us not to read about it, would only prolong any confusion that may exist, and prolong ignorance of the topic we desperately needed to understand...especially today...2021. i.e., Prolong dependance on Lee for "truth" and interpretation of the word.

As for "Against the Tide", you can find it on the Internet. I don't remember seeing a good reason why Lee would tell us not to read the book. Maybe he didn't want us to read another author or give our money to another publisher.

Nell

Sounds like a scifi novel.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Sounds like a scifi novel.

Maybe you shouldn't read it.

Nell

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Yeah let’s not turn this thread into a conspiracy promoting thread. That doctor is incredibly dishonest, uses half truths and spreads lies. He’s being sued by Baylor to stop using their credentials on his name, he’s being stripped of his board certification. Let’s not turn this thread into nonsense regardless how you feel about the pandemic.

It depend what we mean by "cospiracy".
Dictonary says: a secret agreement made between two or more people or groups to do something bad or illegal that will harm someone else

Saints, who read the Bible and follow Jesus, should be aware of two powers in universe: God and enemy of God.
in book of Daniel is about prince of Persia fighting with Messenger.
Dan 10:12
Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel; for from the first day that thou didst set thy heart to understand, and to humble thyself before thy God, thy words were heard: and I am come for thy words` sake.
10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
10:14
Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days; for the vision is yet for [many] days:

This is not fairy tale. This is serious matter.


In the air is big battle now. Satan is attacking saints, turning their attention to soul, opinion and doubt.
Facts are facts. But we have to read everything in spiritual way.
There is a lot of unbelievers, who have quite good recognition. But girl walking after Paul and stalking him had too. But Paul rebuked that spirit.
Knowledge itself also can be used by enemy.
Spirit in that girl in Acts was not from God. She was announcing truth about Paul. Fact. But it was not of Holy Spirit.

Kids in church have depression, committing suicide. Behind all is Satan.
His thoughts and lies sawn in head and heart.
World is world. This system is against Christ and Jesus was teaching about it in John 17.
Conspiracy begun in heaven, when 1/3 of angels followed after Lucifer.

If we stick only to visible world, not faith world, then we will have only concepts and opinion based on our own theories.
One thing what I noticed recently:
Many wise and spiritual teachers from many denominations, read exactly the same way current situation.
One Spirit, One God so and one revelation.
So let us have forgiveness to leading brothers, stay humble and pray. Only this way light from God will come.
If our attitude is " i know, I think that..." or and other indication that in heart we "know", then Lord will not give grace of understanding.
I still ask.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

As for "Against the Tide", you can find it on the Internet. I don't remember seeing a good reason why Lee would tell us not to read the book. Maybe he didn't want us to read another author or give our money to another publisher.

Nell

An elder in Cleveland told me not to read Kinnear’s book because it had “over 200 major errors.” I’m sure that info came from WL himself.

[Nell]

Bringing more to the top...
It goes off the rails here and there...not unusual for us, right? Basically the topical part is from 2017, posts 1-10.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by QOTSA

The LC was a perfect example of patriarchy to me. The dress codes, rules on interacting with members of the opposite sex, rules on speaking in the meetings, and the entire leadership of LC...
The objectification of women, intolerance and hatred against the LGBTQ communities, intolerance against other faith groups or Christian groups... Just unbelievable.

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again. Well, normality is overrated. Everyone is weird and quirky in their own ways.

Though it has been years, it is liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person. Though I'd say normality is underrated. Local churches stressed uniformity and not individualism. To be normal is to express to uniqueness we all possess as individuals.
The LC is not only patriarchal, it is a hierarchy towards women and men alike. "Know your role"! Not only that, but a system where brothers flourish with hypocrisy, double-standards etc. As long as a brother can stand up, speak, and parrot the ministry, his conduct, behavior, and manner of life can be excused with a simple "he's a good brother".
A brother might have a concern, a consideration. "That's not your place brother." Ideas and suggestions should come from fellowship. In other words tell-owship from the top down.
Women and men there's unspoken rules and unspoken codes. In relating to the opposite gender, in manner of dress, etc. As a man I've appreciated the liberty I've had with congregations I've met with since leaving the local churches. I can wear hoodies if I want to. I can wear levi's if I want to. I can wear shorts if I want to. No more do I feel compelled by the dark slacks, white shirt, and tie of the local churches. When I was single, I cannot tell you how many Sunday afternoons headaches was the norm. I count it as stress.
Intolerance towards other Christian groups. Not just privately, but publicly it was normal to use Lord's Day prophesying meeting as a platform to belittle and ridicule non-LC/LSM Christian congregations. I heard in the Church in Bellevue, I heard it in the Church in Renton, and I heard it in the Church in San Bernardino. By no means was it a one off or random. Those occasions I felt as the sole person feeling outrage having the meeting for this type of platform. It seemed by the vocal Amens, to belittle non-LC/LSM congregations was something to be celebrated. Don't you know these other congregations are part of the body of Christ too?
Hatred against the LGBTQ communities - not just one time or two times in the Bible, but if I recall 7 times it says to love our neighbor as ourselves. That's not a statement with conditions. Same applies to any distinctive features or traits that stand out for people to treat you with prejudice.
Something I have considered many times ever since I first became a father; what if it was my child who is lesbian or gay? I would not love them any less.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I tell you, most of us saints in San Diego from back in the day have very fond memories!

Yes indeed some of us from San Diego still have fond memories - and rightfully so!
Here is some proof that what we still fondly remember was not a mere pipe dream.

Much Love to you sister Carol. The wife & I are doing fine...

P.S.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Yes indeed some of us from San Diego still have fond memories - and rightfully so!
Here is some proof that what we still fondly remember was not a mere pipe dream.

Much Love to you sister Carol. The wife & I are doing fine...

P.S.

Awww!! Much love to you and Sharon as well. I am forever grateful for who the Lord surrounded me with in San Diego. I have fond memories of living in your lovely home with sisters Diane Zimmerman who went to be with the Lord wayyy too early. She was 27 when she died in the car accident. Peggy Chisholm also was the other sister who shared your home. Thank you for having opened your home to us.

Looking back, John Smith’s teaching of the Word and his teachings on the Power of the Blood of Jesus solidified my unshakeable faith in my Savior, Lord and King Jesus Christ.

Lee did not save me from hell. Nor did he deliver and set me free from the strongholds oppressing me. No. No.. My Savior Jesus did that. All Glory to His Holy and Precious Name. The Name above every name. The Name in which every knee will bow down to. And every tongue confess to the GLORY of Abba Father Almighty God, He Jesus is KING of kings and LORD of lords.


Too bad (imho) 1977/1978 the focus went from Christ to Witness Lee. For others it was much sooner. He inflicted a lot of emotional, financial and spiritual pain beginning with the Daystar fiasco which I only learned about on this forum.

What is sooo sad and disappointing is God’s Word teaches us to repent, to ask for forgiveness, to humble ourselves and come clean when we wrong someone. To make restitution where it needs to be made.

We all make mistakes. We all have made bad or wrong decisions one time or another. We pray not to to make those mistakes and bad decisions ever again.

Lee was a terrible role model and his blended, blinded successors seem to be following in his footsteps instead of genuinely following and abiding in our Great High Priest and King Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings and healings be showered on everyone here.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Nell

When Lee told us not to read “Latent Power of the Soul” by Nee, then “Against the Tide” a Nee biography by Angus Kinnear, I went directly to the bookstore and bought both books and read them cover to cover almost in one sitting!

Nell

A few weeks ago at Bible study, we were discussing the difference between spirit and soul. The following week someone brought “The latent power of the soul”
by Nee. I think I went into shock!

We did not discuss it though. It is being passed around for people to read. I read it myself wayyyyy way back in the day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

A few weeks ago at Bible study, we were discussing the difference between spirit and soul. The following week someone brought “The latent power of the soul”
by Nee. I think I went into shock!

We did not discuss it though. It is being passed around for people to read. I read it myself wayyyyy way back in the day.

Isn’t that book also taken from JPL?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn’t that book also taken from JPL?

I honestly don’t know. I had seen it at Christian bookstores years ago. Don’t know how my friend got a hold of it or how she heard of it. I think I was too shocked to ask!

I very strongly relate to this.

I was a church kid and got out between 10 and 20 years ago when I was about 19 or so. The conservative brainwashing was powerful, I had internalized a lot of that. I was homophobic, had warped, toxic ideas of masculinity, had trouble relating to women, major repression issues, sexual and otherwise, and on and on. My brother is still involved with the LC and it's pretty clear that it has only been reinforcing a lot of his already vile opinions.

The same pressures that got me to leave also forced me to reevaluate pretty much everything about what I believed. It was a psychologically painful, emotionally agonizing process, but I definitely came out the other side as someone that I can be proud of. Part of this was a categorical rejection of economic and social conservative beliefs. As I've gotten older and continue to keep evaluating what I believe and why, I've only gone further and further left.

I think that's what happens with a lot of people who've gone through something difficult or traumatic and developed a stronger sense of empathy from it. When you can better understand that people are out there with inner lives that are just as rich and valid as your own no matter how different they may be and when you're able to see how much people are suffering from economic and social injustice, you can't help but align with leftist ideology.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I very strongly relate to this.

I was a church kid and got out between 10 and 20 years ago when I was about 19 or so. The conservative brainwashing was powerful, I had internalized a lot of that. I was homophobic, had warped, toxic ideas of masculinity, had trouble relating to women, major repression issues, sexual and otherwise, and on and on. My brother is still involved with the LC and it's pretty clear that it has only been reinforcing a lot of his already vile opinions.

The same pressures that got me to leave also forced me to reevaluate pretty much everything about what I believed. It was a psychologically painful, emotionally agonizing process, but I definitely came out the other side as someone that I can be proud of. Part of this was a categorical rejection of economic and social conservative beliefs. As I've gotten older and continue to keep evaluating what I believe and why, I've only gone further and further left.

I can relate to an extent. I think much of this is a by-product of the LC system; as a man being able to relate to women, repression, lack of boundaries, etc. Boundaries in particular, for a young person to set boundaries, in the local churches that could be labeled as rebellious. Think of this being a teen or a young adult and telling an older brother they are violating your boundaries? I got into a bad habit in the local churches and life in general saying yes became too easy and saying no became too hard. It goes back to boundaries.
Young people who come out of the local churches, I am not surprised there would be repression issues. We were all brainwashed to believe expression of opinion is a bad thing. As a parent now, I want my children expressing their opinion. From my 24 year old to my 22 year old and to my 14 year old. I may not always agree with them, but it opens meaningful conversation.
Except for my salvation and baptism, I have come to re-evaluate everything I was taught while I was in the local churches. How much of it was twisting to fit a narrative?