Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

[Koinonia]

UntoHim, this is probably part of the reason why current LC members do not participate in this forum more frequently. When you first started this message board, you encouraged people to post without registering--if that made them more comfortable.

[UntoHim]

Koinonia,

Your point has merit, and is well taken.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this "Evangelical" person has posted over 20 times, and has sought to interact with other members in a rather comprehensive way. It's not like he/she was just a hit-n-run type poster. They are seeking significant dialog, and that is what this forum is all about.

At this point, anybody on earth can come and post under this name "Evangelical". Out of respect for our forum members, and to avoid confusion, I have always required membership for anyone who wants to enter into our discussions in any significant manner.

As always, I am open from input from all the forum members.

-

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Koinonia,

Your point has merit, and is well taken.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this "Evangelical" person has posted over 20 times, and has sought to interact with other members in a rather comprehensive way. It's not like he/she was just a hit-n-run type poster. They are seeking significant dialog, and that is what this forum is all about.

At this point, anybody on earth can come and post under this name "Evangelical". Out of respect for our forum members, and to avoid confusion, I have always required membership for anyone who wants to enter into our discussions in any significant manner.

As always, I am open from input from all the forum members.

-

Thank you, UntoHim. Many/most current members of the LC are in a completely different demographic from most of the people here (spiritually, culturally, ethnically, socioeconomically, geographically, etc., etc). I say this as a fairly recent leaver; I believe there is quite a big disconnect. I know that many in my set (2nd-generation, SoCal, Asian, FTTA, etc.) have a lot of doubts and questions about the LC. However--they would also be deeply suspicious of someone like you and of the organization of this board, even if they would allow themselves to lurk here. I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Just my thoughts offered for consideration.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Thank you, UntoHim. Many/most current members of the LC are in a completely different demographic from most of the people here (spiritually, culturally, ethnically, socioeconomically, geographically, etc., etc). I say this as a fairly recent leaver; I believe there is quite a big disconnect. I know that many in my set (2nd-generation, SoCal, Asian, FTTA, etc.) have a lot of doubts and questions about the LC. However--they would also be deeply suspicious of someone like you and of the organization of this board, even if they would allow themselves to lurk here. I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Just my thoughts offered for consideration.

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

...more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Please expound upon this if you will. Safe from what? From harsh criticism of Witness Lee? From having to answer some tough questions regarding the teachings and practices? From the general tone and tenor of some of the regular posters? I am not - repeat NOT- saying that none of these concerns (such as they exist) among current LC members is not legitimate, I am only seeking a little more in depth understanding of any reasons they may have for not entering into dialog.

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.

-

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

I have a bit of a different view about this. It's true that LCers are risking something by even coming to this forum, and I also understand the reasoning behind why people are allowed to post anonymously, but it seems there is little benefit to allow regular posters to do so. It's a matter of accountability. If someone has a username, they have to stand behind what they say. It's a bit frustrating when you engage with someone only to have them disappear once they get themselves into hot water. I've seen it happen quite a few times. And that is valuable time wasted on the part of members here who go out of the way to respond to their posts. I understand that LCers are sensitive about what they believe and even more so about defending it, but like anyone else, they still need to learn how to discuss things in a mature way.

Regarding LCers having a "safe space", I think that's just about the last thing that they need, and if fact, they already have it within the confines of their meeting halls and training centers. The way I see the issue is this: LC leadership has effectively stigmatized everything on the internet. Members who venture out as far as this forum are already disobeying leaders. And I think their willingness to do so is a quest for answers. They might not know what answers they're looking for, but they know they're not getting the entire picture in the LC. So for those who have found their way here, getting to the forum wasn't the issue. They already knew beforehand that the material here wasn't going to be pro-LC.

What then I see as the real hindrance for participation on this forum is actually kind of related to the topic of this thread. LCers have been taught that engaging in discussion, discourse or debate is 'fleshly' and part of the "natural man." They might read a lot of things on this forum, but then when it comes to engaging, it's a bit hard to do. They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them?

Yes, all the time.

If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

May I ask why are you asking me this question?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Please expound upon this if you will. Safe from what? From harsh criticism of Witness Lee? From having to answer some tough questions regarding the teachings and practices? From the general tone and tenor of some of the regular posters? I am not - repeat NOT- saying that none of these concerns (such as they exist) among current LC members is not legitimate, I am only seeking a little more in depth understanding of any reasons they may have for not entering into dialog.

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.

-

What I mean is--in order to encourage current LC members to come here and dialogue, we need to make it a little easier for them. I feel the onus is on us to do that. Obviously, this does not mean agreeing with them. But try to look at it from an LCer's perspective... if they are already here at all, that's huge. But if they feel they want to post anonymously (as a guest)--in order to protect their own relationships with friends and family, but think the board moderator will hound them to register every time they do so, most likely that will discourage them from getting involved.

I have a few other ideas, but do not have time to respond in depth at just the moment. I will do so soon, however.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have a bit of a different view about this. It's true that LCers are risking something by even coming to this forum, and I also understand the reasoning behind why people are allowed to post anonymously, but it seems there is little benefit to allow regular posters to do so. It's a matter of accountability. If someone has a username, they have to stand behind what they say. It's a bit frustrating when you engage with someone only to have them disappear once they get themselves into hot water. I've seen it happen quite a few times. And that is valuable time wasted on the part of members here who go out of the way to respond to their posts. I understand that LCers are sensitive about what they believe and even more so about defending it, but like anyone else, they still need to learn how to discuss things in a mature way.

Regarding LCers having a "safe space", I think that's just about the last thing that they need, and if fact, they already have it within the confines of their meeting halls and training centers. The way I see the issue is this: LC leadership has effectively stigmatized everything on the internet. Members who venture out as far as this forum are already disobeying leaders. And I think their willingness to do so is a quest for answers. They might not know what answers they're looking for, but they know they're not getting the entire picture in the LC. So for those who have found their way here, getting to the forum wasn't the issue. They already knew beforehand that the material here wasn't going to be pro-LC.

What then I see as the real hindrance for participation on this forum is actually kind of related to the topic of this thread. LCers have been taught that engaging in discussion, discourse or debate is 'fleshly' and part of the "natural man." They might read a lot of things on this forum, but then when it comes to engaging, it's a bit hard to do. They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.

I completely agree with you about why LCers do not come and post. But I think we should try to help them in that situation in order to encourage more of an atmosphere of active "dissent" amongst LC members--many of whom have real problems with the LC but would never say so openly (I know this from a lot of experience and dialogue with others). I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

For some idea of what I mean, search around the internet for some of the ex-JW and "fading" JW websites like JWStruggle, JWFacts, and JWSurvey. These kind of up-to-date resources and discussions are sorely lacking when it comes to the LC, and I am actively considering how to help change that.

Again, more later...

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

LocalChurchDiscussions was never intended to be a debate forum for ex-LC members. As a matter of fact, you may have noticed, there is no "debate" area on the forum. This is by design. Although I'm not against a good, civil, healthy debate, they are usually not the best tool to foster dialog between current and former members.

Your "wider space" notion is something that I have always hoped could develop here. Besides the "moderator hounding people to register", what else can you point out that may be hindering from LCD becoming such a "space" for current members?

***This question is not just for Koinonia, but for everyone out there. The more input, the better!

For some idea of what I mean, search around the internet for some of the ex-JW and "fading" JW websites like JWStruggle, JWFacts, and JWSurvey. These kind of up-to-date resources and discussions are sorely lacking when it comes to the LC, and I am actively considering how to help change that.

Of those you mention, only JWStruggle has a forum. As a matter of fact, this forum is about the same size as ours (between 250-300 registered members) and has about the same amount of activity. ***Did you notice that guests are not even allowed to post at all. REGISTRATION IS REQUIRED TO MAKE A REPLY OR START A THREAD. I think you will find this true for the vast majority of Internet Forums.

Having open posting is a HUGE security threat to any Internet forum. Trust me, I have found this out the hard way. I don't see how registering compromises one's identity. They can reveal as little or as much about themselves as they feel comfortable with. Obviously, one can post under a "UserName" that does not reveal anything about themselves.

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[HERn]

Not that I'm an expert on this by any means, but I think one could create a Gmail account using almost any kind of name not taken and I don't think anybody but the Ruskies or Assange or the NSA could track down the identify of the owner of the email account. But, I could be wrong. Just my two cents. My guess is that there are many LC lurkers reading here, but aren't ready to post. I know I read for quite awhile before I first posted and then it was a post about leaving. Really, the problem could be resolved if LSM ran its own forum where members could post questions and concerns and discuss things among the "family", but it would be a cold day in the opposite of heaven (Just in case the sister-censor is reading!) before that will happen.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Yes, all the time. May I ask why are you asking me this question?

Just curious. It was really a superfluous question, admittedly. If you are out then I can probably figure out how you feel about it.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.

-

Thanks for your attitude and faithfulness to stand and pray for truth, Unto Him.

Local Church indoctrination to not be open to anything that questions "the ministry", attachment to past good experiences in the LC, and fear of LC leaders reprisals against my family members took me a while to get over. I suspect those are the biggest factors vs registration here for current LC members.

Keep encouraging registration by pointing out its benefits while reminding that it is not required. It might be good to point out that registration info is kept completely confidential.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

I heard from BP's own mouth that if you leave TLR that you can't go on with the Lord. I've heard from LC elders and senior members that bad things can happen to those who touch the Ministry in a negative way. For me it took Herculean effort and resolve to extract me and my family. Satan has strong spiritual, psychological and sociological tricks to keep people in the deception.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

Local Church indoctrination to not be open to anything that questions "the ministry", attachment to past good experiences in the LC, and fear of LC leaders reprisals against my family members took me a while to get over. I suspect those are the biggest factors vs registration here for current LC members.

Reprisals? Would the brothers even do such a thing? Probably not, but more likely forum participants regularly meeting with a local church may no longer be welcome to meet. I think that's one element that keeps LCers from posting. Another one is constant warnings of "the internet". Lastly whether personal or electronic contact are warnings about "being poisoned" by the opposers, rebels, etc.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

Reprisals? Would the brothers even do such a thing? Probably not. . .

How about, "You'll never talk to your grandkids again"? Or your children, neices, etc. The strength of this social network is, if you go against it you never come back. Believe me, that has holding power.

Math quiz: how many have gotten cut off, or quarantined, or whatever terminology they use, over the past 40-odd years? And how many of those got any rapprochement, or rehabilitation?

I can only think of one, a guy that repented and came back, and they made him sit in the back for a year, and not speak. Other than that, nobody once out ever made it back in. It's a closed shop, kiddos, pretty intimidating stuff. But they don't mention any of this when they go out recruiting new ones on the campus. "Oh, we're just Christians who love Jesus and gather in His name". Right.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Math quiz: how many have gotten cut off, or quarantined, or whatever terminology they use, over the past 40-odd years? And how many of those got any rapprochement, or rehabilitation?

The GLA was different. It might be harder for leaders who opposed TC to his face, but I've seen some of the rank and file return to open arms, like the prodogal son. One I know even said publicly it was a cult.

[Evangelical]

Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.

Welcome. And I apologize in advance for being small-minded, petty, vindictive, judgmental, and bitter.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've seen some of the rank and file return to open arms, like the prodigal son. One I know even said publicly it was a cult.

As seen by Ohio's reply to my post, what I often assert as being of thus-and-such manner may not match someone else's view, or experience. Thankfully people on this forum have been kind to me, in spite of my broad-brush generalities. May God grant us all grace to communicate with one another. I daresay it's needed.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

Welcome. And I apologize in advance for being small-minded, petty, vindictive, judgmental, and bitter.



As seen by Ohio's reply to my post, what I often assert as being of thus-and-such manner may not match someone else's view, or experience. Thankfully people on this forum have been kind to me, in spite of my broad-brush generalities. May God grant us all grace to communicate with one another. I daresay it's needed.

I love this forum! How refreshing! Yes, Lord, grant us all grace to communicate in a manner that reflects your great love for us.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

How about, "You'll never talk to your grandkids again"? Or your children, neices, etc. The strength of this social network is, if you go against it you never come back. Believe me, that has holding power.

Math quiz: how many have gotten cut off, or quarantined, or whatever terminology they use, over the past 40-odd years? And how many of those got any rapprochement, or rehabilitation?

I can only think of one, a guy that repented and came back, and they made him sit in the back for a year, and not speak. Other than that, nobody once out ever made it back in. It's a closed shop, kiddos, pretty intimidating stuff. But they don't mention any of this when they go out recruiting new ones on the campus. "Oh, we're just Christians who love Jesus and gather in His name". Right.

I can think of one former elder whose niece continues meeting with no reprisals in North Carolina. Or another one whose son last I knew was meeting with San Diego. I do think certain ones whose last name ties them to former leading ones (Ingalls, Knoch, Chu, etc) will be looked upon with suspicion, but not barred from assembly.
Take myself for example, if the brothers from my parent's Sothern Cal locality knew I'm "active on the internet". Nothing would happen to my parents, but whenever my family and I came in town to visit wouldn't be welcome to attend.
I do agree social networks that exist in the local churches is a ripe environment to cause strained relationships and may even reject those who have left. Still it's not a one size fits all type of culture.
I think it comes down to spiritual maturity of brothers and sisters. I have known of brothers and sisters who can receive ones who have left the local churches. Other brothers and sisters whose receiving is based on "if you meet with a locality" haven't shown a growth in life. Action speaks louder than words.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

. . it's not a one size fits all type of culture.
I think it comes down to spiritual maturity of brothers and sisters. .

Thanks for taking the time to modify my statements. I've had limited contact with them for several years, and the LCM I'm now railing against may exist only in my head, which possibility causes me no small amusement.

"But I really, really like sweeping generalizations. . they're so satisfying to write!"

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.

Well, only if you don't share your sign-in information with others, right?😉

[Evangelical]

My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.

My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here.
I find this rather ironic and amusing, because supposedly we or I are "Lee followers". The meetings have always uplifted Christ, there is really no other name mentioned as frequently.

So I am thinking some of your perspectives are somewhat wrong and perhaps outdated. Just as my perspectives are ignorant of past history.

This was one of the reasons I decided to come to the forum. Not to persuade anyone to do anything, but to highlight that things aren't possibly as bad as made out, or as widespread.

I could recount numerous denominational experiences that were just as bad, or worse. So in my experience the LR is an improvement.

The corruptions of greed, money, power, control, can affect any human being.

I would encourage people to remember to keep the focus on Christ. Holding onto the Head, but also not forgetting the Body.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.

I hope it always stays that way. The world needs safe places where people feel welcome to be themselves. All people. We may not agree on all things, but we have a lot in common. That's why I try to acknowledge the occasionally rancorous tone of my postings. I write because I enjoy writing. But if others don't enjoy reading it, then I'm being rather selfish, no? This is a great place to treat others' ideas with the respect that you'd hope they would have for yours.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here.

The reason for that is that one doesn't discuss the Ascended Master. He's off limits. Even when he's wrong, he's right. So don't bother to examine him. Just focus on Christ. Right?

Unfortunately the 'Christ' you focus on is filtered through this quite-human ministry, with all its attendant, unexamined quirks and foibles, and therefore this 'Christ' often looks little like the one plainly seen in scriptures. The Bible says that many Christs have come into this world, and not all of them are good, or true.

So we should prove all things, especially ministries which make exaggerated and lofty claims for themselves. You know, the Seer of the Divine Revelation, the One Trumpet, God's Oracle, stuff like that.

[ZoeGrace]

I have not been to this forum for some time now. I chose to avoid all conversation on the matter with my husband and decided it was best to live and let live. I have not been meeting with any church as the Christianity is degraded, and worse, comments are depressing to hear all the time. My husband is a good man. But, he is not open whatsoever to any other teachings than Witness Lee and the ministry. If I ask any questions or bring up alternative views, I am schooled and lately he sarcastically avoids discussions by saying "You have been reading lies on the internet." I know without a doubt that everyone in the local church here believes that you are disloyal to the oneness and the ministry if you question the teachings, especially on forums such as this. They really are afraid to research or listen to anyone who has a different view. My husband would never allow himself to be touched by something worldly like this forum. Probably even go as far as to say it is of Satan. I suppose it is fear and at times arrogance. It is amazing to me how powerful the ministry "brainwashing" is with otherwise intelligent people. My husband researches everything else, but not his own church. Which by the way, is hypocritical as he says that other denominations do not know their own history. I probably aggravate it as I say the LC is as denominational as any of the others! Needless to say, it is not surprising at all that active LC members do not post here.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

My husband researches everything else, but not his own church. Which by the way, is hypocritical as he says that other denominations do not know their own history.

At some point back in the day, Witness Lee actually encouraged members to study church history. Then when brothers actually did so, he turned on them, saying they were "wasting their time because everything they needed to know about church history can be found in his ministry" (paraphrase). This kind of double take was very common with Lee. He would feign interest in his followers studying church history. or even the teachings of certain theologians of the past (Darby, Andrew Murray..a few others) but then he would become concerned that people would actually find out that much of what he tried to pass off as "recovered truth" was taken from the ministry of others. Sadly, Witness Lee wasted untold amounts of time and energy making sure that his followers didn't find out that "the emperor had no clothes". But many did find out. And here we are.

Now, almost two decades after his passing, a whole lot of some of the most sincere and well-meaning people are still, to this day, convinced that Witness Lee was actually some kind of "one minister with the one ministry for the age." But they are in an echo chamber of their own making. Oh Lord, have mercy!
-

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZoeGrace

My husband researches everything else, but not his own church. Which by the way, is hypocritical as he says that other denominations do not know their own history.

A suggestion - you can respond in accordance with the ministry he follows. For example, rather than argue, you can tell him that he needs to repent and keep his mind on the Lord not you. He may appreciate you more for giving advice in accordance with the ministry. We should try not to argue about religion with our spouses, keeping our comments and opinions to ourselves, but trying to pursue the Lord together.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I completely agree with you about why LCers do not come and post. But I think we should try to help them in that situation in order to encourage more of an atmosphere of active "dissent" amongst LC members--many of whom have real problems with the LC but would never say so openly (I know this from a lot of experience and dialogue with others). I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

I wanted to bring this post back to the forefront. I'm hoping Koinonia and others out there might expand upon what he has posted here. God knows that I've always hoped and prayed that this could actually become "a supportive online community" of sorts. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that my shortcomings as an administrator and moderator, along with the generally antagonistic atmosphere that can develop between current and former members of any movement, has greatly hindered this kind of atmosphere from developing on the forum.

Maybe we can set up a separate "page", like I have done for "Alternative Views", that would largely be dedicated to communication and fellowship between current members. Any strong or rancorous postings regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church would be restricted. A current Local Church member could be installed as a moderator. Of course anybody who chooses to participate on this forum page will be perfectly free to participate on the main forum as well.

Let me know if this sounds like something that has potential to bring some current members to the forum. I'm open to just about anything that can foster open communication and fellowship.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I wanted to bring this post back to the forefront. I'm hoping Koinonia and others out there might expand upon what he has posted here. God knows that I've always hoped and prayed that this could actually become "a supportive online community" of sorts. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that my shortcomings as an administrator and moderator, along with the generally antagonistic atmosphere that can develop between current and former members of any movement, has greatly hindered this kind of atmosphere from developing on the forum.

For those like drake, evangelical, and others who come here to promote LC teachings, "discussion" becomes more an avenue for understanding the scriptures on a host of pertinent topics. For "lurkers" or passers-by who come to the forum with legitimate concerns, forum discussions become a means to encourage, provide clarifications, share experiences, or just help release them from fear. Both have been helpful to me.

As a suggestion, it would be nice in the "Introduction and Testimony" sub-forum to exclude ALL poster-to-poster responses, and allow ONLY poster-to-OP dialog. In this way unregistered guests or newly registered posters would "control" all discussions, and prevent those all-to-common "tangents" from occurring. In other words, unless a poster is directly replying to what the OP (Original Poster) has posted, the post will be deleted or moved. The OP would thus "own" the thread.

UntoHim has often mentioned this, but apparently this requires "enforcement."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I wanted to bring this post back to the forefront. I'm hoping Koinonia and others out there might expand upon what he has posted here. God knows that I've always hoped and prayed that this could actually become "a supportive online community" of sorts.

UntoHim, it seems like what you intended to be a neutral discussion forum has turned into a local church bashing forum (see the "I'm confused....." post). Currently, a local church member may be attracted to the forum as it seems to represent local church discussion, but find it is local church bashing instead. So I think another section that is more friendly towards the local church may be a good idea. Or perhaps a variety of forums that cater for the various degrees of congeniality or animosity towards the local churches. This would "average out" all the various points of view and move it towards a more moderate and neutral online forum I think. I do not think it has to be moderated by a current local church member. Just someone who has some positive local church experiences and can relate to current members (not someone who was only there for a few weeks and left because they thought it was weird).

[UntoHim]

So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ
Ephesians 4:14,15

Evangelical,
One man's bashing is another man's speaking the truth in love. If Witness Lee was still alive, this is something I'm sure he would heartily agree with. After all, much of Lee's ministry was a ministry of bashing "poor, poor Christianity." There is no doubt that this is something that he picked up from Watchman Nee, and I think he considered criticizing others his main calling. So if you want to call some of us "bashers" of Witness Lee and The Local Church movement, well, what can we say, we learned from the best.

After all these years, one would hope that those who have sat under "the one minister with the one ministry for the age" and claim to represent "The Lord's Recovery" could respond to all our s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ...errrr...bashing with a more intelligible response than "I know you are, but what am I"

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I do not think it has to be moderated by a current local church member. Just someone who has some positive local church experiences and can relate to current members

I don't think there are many, if any, people who fit this description. If you know of one, please let us know. In the meantime, I think the best we can hope for is a current Local Church member to take us up on our offer to set up a forum page which would be accessible to current members.
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[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As a suggestion, it would be nice in the "Introduction and Testimony" sub-forum to exclude ALL poster-to-poster responses, and allow ONLY poster-to-OP dialog. In this way unregistered guests or newly registered posters would "control" all discussions, and prevent those all-to-common "tangents" from occurring. In other words, unless a poster is directly replying to what the OP (Original Poster) has posted, the post will be deleted or moved. The OP would thus "own" the thread.

I have always assumed that this is how the Introductions and Testimonies thread would function. I don't think "all poster-to-poster responses" should be excluded per se, but posters should stick to the general theme of the original post. If the original poster, for whatever reason, decides to be "one and done", I think it would be best to just let their original post stand as it is and let it drop off into the archives.
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[JJ]

Regarding the title, I'm sure the years of being warned about anything that questioned "the ministry" with the "dire consequences" that result scare many away.

We do need to do a better job of exhibiting the Lord's compassion and relying on His long suffering with one another, while balancing the need to speak the truth in love.... a delicate line to walk.

The Lord will ask for an accounting for every word when He returns... a sobering thought.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.

Much like societies liberals, they take the approach their views are right and don't want to engage in any dialogue that could negate what they believe to be correct.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ
Ephesians 4:14,15

Evangelical,
One man's bashing is another man's speaking the truth in love. If Witness Lee was still alive, this is something I'm sure he would heartily agree with. After all, much of Lee's ministry was a ministry of bashing "poor, poor Christianity." There is no doubt that this is something that he picked up from Watchman Nee, and I think he considered criticizing others his main calling. So if you want to call some of us "bashers" of Witness Lee and The Local Church movement, well, what can we say, we learned from the best.

After all these years, one would hope that those who have sat under "the one minister with the one ministry for the age" and claim to represent "The Lord's Recovery" could respond to all our s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ...errrr...bashing with a more intelligible response than "I know you are, but what am I"

I don't think there are many, if any, people who fit this description. If you know of one, please let us know. In the meantime, I think the best we can hope for is a current Local Church member to take us up on our offer to set up a forum page which would be accessible to current members.
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UntoHim,

I don't think a separate page would make a difference in attracting local church members. There are other reasons they stay away.

First, I think anonymity is crucial and the forum provides that and you accommodated me by foregoing the usual registration process. That can be done for anyone. That might make a difference for a few.

Second, many local church members are just not interested or they do not consider it a good redemption of time. Some wonder what is the point? Those would never come under any circumstances.

Third, a few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac s sooner or later.

I don't speak for any current local church members, just my own views.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

I don't think a separate page would make a difference in attracting local church members. There are other reasons they stay away.

First, I think anonymity is crucial and the forum provides that and you accommodated me by foregoing the usual registration process. That can be done for anyone. That might make a difference for a few.

Second, many local church members are just not interested or they do not consider it a good redemption of time. Some wonder what is the point? Those would never come under any circumstances.

Third, a few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac s sooner or later.

I don't speak for any current local church members, just my own views.

Drake

Quick comment, since my name was mentioned.

Lots of things bothered me as a stepped away in 2005 and researched the LSM and LCM.

The things you just mentioned were not adequate to cause me to leave, having lived thru them to varying degrees.

The treatment of John Ingalls was most troubling to me. If Lee could do that, then I felt he was capable of anything.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

Third, a few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac s sooner or later.

I'm curious, Drake. Just what would you like to discuss? What would you like people to understand that you don't think they get?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm curious, Drake. Just what would you like to discuss? What would you like people to understand that you don't think they get?

I don't know what people get.

But I don't find it personally interesting that all roads lead to PL, lawsuits, MOTA, etc.

That's all.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

I don't know what people get.
But I don't find it personally interesting that all roads lead to PL, lawsuits, MOTA, etc.
That's all.

So what would you rather talk about? That's an honest question.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So what would you rather talk about? That's an honest question.

Some of the topics in flight are interesting. If I have some specific topic I want to discuss I would create a base note.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

I don't think a separate page would make a difference in attracting local church members. There are other reasons they stay away.

Very well then, why don't you enlighten us? We know what the Blended Brothers think of this place. They have referred to one of our members as "a man of death". I've been informed that I'm not held in much higher esteem...maybe worse. Nor worries for me though. Trust me, I have far more pressing issues to deal with. Anyway, I didn't start, nor do I maintain this forum for the Blended Brothers. It is for average Local Church member. It is for those seeking information about the movement for whatever reason. It is for brothers and sisters such as yourself who have the fortitude to come and have open communication and fellowship with your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

First, I think anonymity is crucial and the forum provides that and you accommodated me by foregoing the usual registration process. That can be done for anyone. That might make a difference for a few.

I have tried my best to address the issues of security and anonymity over the years. The recent software upgrade was done mainly for security reasons. (Thank you all for being patient) As far as registration is concerned, I think almost everyone under 80 years old with the most minimal of Internet experiences knows that a very secure and very anonymous Gmail, Yahoo or hotmail account can be set up in minutes. It would be more likely the Russian government could find out your identity than anyone on this forum.

All this being said, your point here is a good one and well taken. You were not the only person I have made this offer to. There actually are a few others who have registered without giving an email address.

At various times over the past year or so, I have placed a module on the homepage entitled "Soapbox of the Saints". It was to be an area on the homepage where current members could come and post anything (within reason of course) in a totally anonymous way. They didn't even have to give a temporary UserName if they didn't want to. They could simply post as a guest. This module/thread received over 2,000 views. NOT ONE POST. NONE - ZIP - NADA - ZILCH. You cannot tell me that out of those thousands of page views there were not quite a number of current LC members. Why not one post? Why not one current member to come and take a free swing at us? Really? Not ONE? Why is this Drake? It CANNOT be about anonymity.

A few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac sooner or later.

Fair enough observation here. Yet, have you ever taken a moment to wonder why most conversations pivot to such things? Has it ever occurred to you the kind psychological and spiritual devastation these things wreaked upon the longtime true believers of the movement? I can tell you that it is not much different than one spouse finding out that the other is cheating on them. Lot's of emotions come. Most of the time sheer unbelief and total denial. Ask any spouse, even many years later, about how they feel about this trusted person who cheated on them. I think you get the point.

Just about every thread is going to be a cul-de-sac. It's the nature of the beast of Internet forums. Most of the time we are discussing very serious issues, including some very controversial characters and situations. Rarely are we all going to come to a meeting of the minds, or anything close. Many threads end up with one or more parties storming off into cyberspace, claiming they will never come back to the forum again. Again, this is just part and parcel of the nature of Internet forums.

For anyone disinterested in any particular cul-de-sac, they are free to make a u-turn and exit at their convenience. I might suggest they start their own thread, and then if it becomes a cul-de-sac, well then, maybe it will be a cul-de-sac of their own making.
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[Drake]

UntoHim) "Yet, have you ever taken a moment to wonder why most conversations pivot to such things?"

Yes. And for those reasons that appears to be the unique purpose of this forum. That's an observation not a complaint. I'm a guest for the time being.

Yet, that and other reasons mentioned is why I believe current members will not come here even with a separate section or page.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Fair enough observation here. Yet, have you ever taken a moment to wonder why most conversations pivot to such things? Has it ever occurred to you the kind psychological and spiritual devastation these things wreaked upon the longtime true believers of the movement? I can tell you that it is not much different than one spouse finding out that the other is cheating on them. Lot's of emotions come. Most of the time sheer unbelief and total denial. Ask any spouse, even many years later, about how they feel about this trusted person who cheated on them. I think you get the point.

That's an excellent analogy. Even if it happened a quarter century ago, what would be the response if you happened to tell your spouse over a nice dinner, "Sweetheart, do you remember that business trip I took back in 1989 to that Vegas conference? I never told you who I ran into ... But it's old history now. Just wanted to come clean. And we all make mistakes. Right dear?"

That's exactly the nonchalant attitude LCers take when corruption at LSM gets exposed. "Nobody's perfect, eh?" Many of us trusted Witness Lee for many years, through hell and high water, because we were led to believe that he lived a servant's life as the Apostle Paul did. Then one day we happened to learn the proverbial "rest of the story." So, it's no wonder when long-time members suddenly learn the behind-the-scenes truth, and are immediately "poisoned" as loyalists like to say.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

And for those reasons that appears to be the unique purpose of this forum. That's an observation not a complaint.

The unique purpose of this forum is clearly stated in the banner which is prominently displayed at the top of the homepage. "Open discussions of the Local Church Movement and the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee". If these open discussions have led us to some places that are objectionable or uncomfortable to our brothers and sisters within the Local Church movement, well I would suggest that they fire up their computer, come register and participate on the ONLY VENUE on the Internet for such open discussions. They need to stop listening to those who would tell them that their hair is going to catch on fire or a piano is going to fall on them if they come and dialog with former members. Look at you and Evangelical. To you still have your hair? Has any large musical instrument fallen on you?

I'm a guest for the time being.

No, you're a member for the time being. I don't want you to be a guest...then I would have to treat you nice.
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[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's an excellent analogy. Even if it happened a quarter century ago, what would be the response if you happened to tell your spouse over a nice dinner, "Sweetheart, do you remember that business trip I took back in 1989 to that Vegas conference? I never told you who I ran into ... But it's old history now. Just wanted to come clean. And we all make mistakes. Right dear?"

That's exactly the nonchalant attitude LCers take when corruption at LSM gets exposed. "Nobody's perfect, eh?" Many of us trusted Witness Lee for many years, through hell and high water, because we were led to believe that he lived a servant's life as the Apostle Paul did. Then one day we happened to learn the proverbial "rest of the story." So, it's no wonder when long-time members suddenly learn the behind-the-scenes truth, and are immediately "poisoned" as loyalists like to say.

I think you would have to add, "and oh by the way, you have noticed that there has been a lot of withdrawals from our savings account, well that was to support some children I had"

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?

Yes, which is a lie from the pit of hell and has lead to the spiritual death of many who wish to pursue the Lord with other believers, but feel they it's hopeless.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's exactly the nonchalant attitude LCers take when corruption at LSM gets exposed. "Nobody's perfect, eh?" Many of us trusted Witness Lee for many years, through hell and high water, because we were led to believe that he lived a servant's life as the Apostle Paul did. Then one day we happened to learn the proverbial "rest of the story." So, it's no wonder when long-time members suddenly learn the behind-the-scenes truth, and are immediately "poisoned" as loyalists like to say.

Ohio, messages I've listened to online over the pas decade that's the basic them I get from blended coworkers regarding the late Witness Lee "nobody's perfect". However when it comes to the other side of the coin or as you say "the rest of the story" long time members don't want to hear it. Of course for them it's much easier to believe a lie than to be told the truth. They simply don't want to be faced with the dilemma, "I gave my Christian life for this". That's not going to happen. Can you imagine the disillusion finding out there was intentional financial mismanagement? Truth is too horrible to accept. Better to go on like an ostrich with it's head in the sand.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

Ohio, messages I've listened to online over the pas decade that's the basic them I get from blended coworkers regarding the late Witness Lee "nobody's perfect". However when it comes to the other side of the coin or as you say "the rest of the story" long time members don't want to hear it. Of course for them it's much easier to believe a lie than to be told the truth. They simply don't want to be faced with the dilemma, "I gave my Christian life for this". That's not going to happen. Can you imagine the disillusion finding out there was intentional financial mismanagement? Truth is too horrible to accept. Better to go on like an ostrich with it's head in the sand.

In the LC, I encountered situations multiple times where someone went so far as to acknowledge some problem or admit that a situation wasn't right, but that was the extent of concern. The next move was always to shrug it off with statements like "nobody's perfect."

It is like you say, I think a lot of people in the LC just can't imagine having to make the decision to leave the LC or get kicked out. If a situation has one of those potential 'consequences', then they will do everything they can do to ignore the situation.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the LC, I encountered situations multiple times where someone went so far as to acknowledge some problem or admit that a situation wasn't right, but that was the extent of concern. The next move was always to shrug it off with statements like "nobody's perfect."

It is like you say, I think a lot of people in the LC just can't imagine having to make the decision to leave the LC or get kicked out. If a situation has one of those potential 'consequences', then they will do everything they can do to ignore the situation.

"Nobody's perfect' is the out clause from having to be accountable to one another or to explain/defend a particular position or decision.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

"Nobody's perfect' is the out clause from having to be accountable to one another or to explain/defend a particular position or decision.

Yet the "Lords recovery" of LSM is supposedly based on correcting the faults of "degraded Christianity". This is the result of the untrammeled subjectivism of Nee. The whole thing rested on the pursuit of feeling. "So subjective is my Christ in me"; so subjective that objective reality itself is set aside. And the hypocrisy of of judging all others as hopelessly deficient while shrugging and saying, "We all make mistakes" to your own.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Yet the "Lords recovery" of LSM is supposedly based on correcting the faults of "degraded Christianity". This is the result of the untrammeled subjectivism of Nee. The whole thing rested on the pursuit of feeling. "So subjective is my Christ in me"; so subjective that objective reality itself is set aside. And the hypocrisy of of judging all others as hopelessly deficient while shrugging and saying, "We all make mistakes" to your own.

"The mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business," -- Titus Chu.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

"The mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business," -- Titus Chu.

Yet the mistakes of everyone else, whether real or imagined, are a constant pre-occupation. How else to distinguish the validity of ourselves except against a backdrop of (someone else's) failure?

"Lord, how I thank you that I'm not like ___________ over there. I have the Recovered Truth/High Peak Revelation/Rich Ministry/Insert Make-Believe Object Here"

Didn't Jesus comment explicitly on this? How can we say that this is God? Rather it looks like fallen humanity masquerading itself as divine will expressed. With God there is no turning. . . in this I see nothing but turning.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Yet the mistakes of everyone else, whether real or imagined, are a constant pre-occupation. How else to distinguish the validity of ourselves except against a backdrop of (someone else's) failure?

"Lord, how I thank you that I'm not like ___________ over there. I have the Recovered Truth/High Peak Revelation/Rich Ministry/Insert Make-Believe Object Here"

Didn't Jesus comment explicitly on this? How can we say that this is God? Rather it looks like fallen humanity masquerading itself as divine will expressed. With God there is no turning. . . in this I see nothing but turning.

Obviously when they were becoming God (not in the Godhead) they made a wrong turn. To what is the question? -> obvious answer <- that doesn't even need to be mentioned.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

"The mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business," -- Titus Chu.

There was some hush-hush talk prior to Ingalls Quarantine that one of the sisters molested by Philip Lee was from the Cleveland area, yet the allegiance to a "spiritual father" superseded the allegiance of faithfulness to:

1. A sister once under their oversight (she was a volunteer molested at LSM by the LSM Manager)
2. Brothers and co-workers (John Ingalls was thrown under the bus)
3. Righteousness ("Blessed are those who suffer for righteousness sake")
4. The truth (Those who sin reprove before all, that the rest might be in fear. I Tim 5.20)
5. God Himself (those who stumble the least of His children deserve the millstone treatment)

Apparently everything was sacrificed for Witness Lee and Sons.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Yet the mistakes of everyone else, whether real or imagined, are a constant pre-occupation. How else to distinguish the validity of ourselves except against a backdrop of (someone else's) failure?

"Lord, how I thank you that I'm not like ___________ over there. I have the Recovered Truth/High Peak Revelation/Rich Ministry/Insert Make-Believe Object Here"

Didn't Jesus comment explicitly on this? How can we say that this is God? Rather it looks like fallen humanity masquerading itself as divine will expressed. With God there is no turning. . . in this I see nothing but turning.

Those in the LCM believe that they are part of something special, and so perhaps it is somewhat understandable that they would want to 'brag' a little. Interestingly though, their continual need to contrast themselves from other groups and condemn those groups is what serves to prove that the LCM is not so special after all.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Those in the LCM believe that they are part of something special, and so perhaps it is somewhat understandable that they would want to 'brag' a little. Interestingly though, their continual need to contrast themselves from other groups and condemn those groups is what serves to prove that the LCM is not so special after all.

I would say they want to believe it, but the need to make verbal distinctions between their movement and other churches is their way of reinforcement even if it contributes nothing to edification.

Probably most don"t know this exists and also bc why would they want to be influenced negatively?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Searching

Probably most don"t know this exists and also bc why would they want to be influenced negatively?

"Most" is probably true, but many do know about this site and many are learning about faithful sister Casteel's FB testimony. This will multiply as more saints sense the Spirit's nudging of their consciences that there is something off about the Recovery and LSM's management of the LCs. Saints will discover that the threats of bad things happening to them for following their consciences is nothing more than religious superstition propagated by the being blinded brothers and elders. When people are deceived by evil spirits they need to be "influenced negatively" to find freedom in Christ alone.

[allinclusivechrist]

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum .
Also you know my name and address.
I feel that this is how we should live out Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum ...

Reminds me of an LC meeting, where we were told, "You can all prophesy one by one." So one by one, after the speaking, everyone got up and exclaimed, "I can prophesy!" Or, "Praise the Lord! I'm prophesying!"

Uh, "I'm prophesying" hardly counts as a prophetic utterance. And yelling it doesn't really add anything. But thanks anyway.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum .
Also you know my name and address.
I feel that this is how we should live out Christ.

Well praise the Lord and greetings from Scottsdale! May you pursue and find the "all inclusive Christ" in your locality!

Not sure what you are referring to when you said that we "know my name and address" however . . .

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well praise the Lord and greetings from Scottsdale! May you pursue and find the "all inclusive Christ" in your locality!

Not sure what you are referring to when you said that we "know my name and address" however . . .

You can click on the poster's name, and it shows all their posts. The poster gave his name & address on the first post. You can read all 7 posts.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by allinclusivechrist

Praise the lord saints.
I'm still very active in my locality and I posted on your forum .
Also you know my name and address.
I feel that this is how we should live out Christ.

Hi allinclusivechrist, what do you mean by "this is how we should live out Christ"?

How did you come to find this forum and what prompted you to post in the first place?

Glad you are here.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Hi allinclusivechrist, what do you mean by "this is how we should live out Christ"?

How did you come to find this forum and what prompted you to post in the first place?

Glad you are here.

Trapped

I ditto this question. Please tell us more about you and your testimony!

Jesus is Lord.

Greetings from Hamilton, NZ.

I stumbled upon this website due to my curiosity.

Much Grace

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Jesus is Lord.

Greetings from Hamilton, NZ.

I stumbled upon this website due to my curiosity.

Much Grace

I think you've registered since you posted this (aka "SeekingWisdom"). And I think you said you still meet with the LC, right? To me that is fine - the Lord is faithful to show you what He will . . . in His time.

And pursuant to this thread's topic of "Why don't LC members post on here?" I think it's an interesting question that has merit in revisiting. In any case you are posting on here! Of course, compared to a year ago, very few are posting on here, whether they be current LC or ex-LC . . .

[SeekingWisdom]

Yes, that is correct. I am now registered.

From my understanding, when you look at the face of this website you have the following:

* Testimonies of coming out from the LC
* Denouncing of the works of Nee and Lee and even the persons
* LC being a cult

So at first, with the website banner saying "Making sense of the Lord's Recovery Movement", it may seem like a place for purely discussion. But a lot of the threads involve rehabilitation, tips on how to recover from traumatic experiences in the LC, etc. Declaring all the works of Lee (and maybe Nee) should be thrown out. Of course, this may not be the feeling or representation of the all the members but at the face of this website, this is what is presented.

So it would seem to be a hostile environment for those that are still enjoying their time in the LC or do not have anything personally against the LC.

I would like to ask, if someone shared a post about a positive experience or testimony concerning the LC, how many members here would be offended, hold with contempt, or assume that it was fabricated/fake. Or be very suspicious.

Please do not misunderstand. I am not dismissing the experiences and testimonies of those that have suffered in the LD's Recovery. I am merely just presenting a different perspective. Nothing more, nothing less.

I personally have not posted here because I do not know how to contribute. I have a tendency of just observing. But I have recently gained an interest in having a bit of dialogue with the people here.

My standing as a LC member:
I think there are many things wrong with the LC. I think LSM played a huge factor to that problem (along with a number of other things). But I still see the believers here as dear brothers and sisters. As do I see any fellow believer (regardless of whether they are in the LC).

[aron]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

So it would seem to be a hostile environment for those that are still enjoying their time in the LC or do not have anything personally against the LC.

It can be a hostile-seeming environment, I admit. And I've apologised often for my share in the hostility, such as it is. (all my posts should have a long disclaimer about my frailties and lack of standing to judge... I assume it's understood but often it isn't, and even I forget!)

But think about this: the LSM puts out a paper (or used to) called "affirmation and critique", yet if someone critiques them, the critique is called "accusations" and "rebellion" and so forth. So the basis for dialog has been badly damaged. If you can help repair that, that's wonderful. Blessed are the peacemakers.

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

I'd like to ask, if someone shared a post about a positive experience or testimony concerning the LC, how many members here would be offended, hold with contempt, or assume that it was fabricated/fake. Or be very suspicious.

I think that we could critique your enjoyment. That's not necessarily contempt. Again, the LSM critiques Christianity, their enjoyment and experience.

Suppose, for example, you said that a Psalm of imprecation was "Christ defeating Satan". Very enjoyable, right? Couldn't I point out that other psalms of imprecation are panned in RecV footnotes as "natural" and "fallen" since, you know, we're supposed to turn the other cheek? Why didn't David turn the other cheek with Goliath? Etc?

If there is inconsistency in the "enjoyment" then others may note that without seeming to be contemptuous. All of us are inconsistent. Christ alone is pure. We really only ask for the privilege of doing unto LSM what they do to everyone else. If that privilege were ever granted then I think the tenor of the discussion would probably change greatly. (but I don't know because permission to discuss is never granted with them).

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

Please do not misunderstand. I am not dismissing the experiences and testimonies of those that have suffered in the LD's Recovery. I am merely just presenting a different perspective. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again, nothing wrong with that. But why aren't different perspectives allowed inside the LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

A good observation and well put I think. The LC experiences of those on this forum cover the full spectrum from terrible experiences and therefore all things LC/WL/WN are bad (or the worst); to those whose had many good experiences along with some not so good experiences, and then were lead to leave the LC. There have also been on here, from time to time, a few strong supporters of the LC and who were active in that group. But those folks are generally few . . . their time posting on here continues for a time and then they usually disappear.

I fall into the camp of those who know for certain that the Lord led them to the LC and count gaining many good things from Him there. I praise the Lord for that experience! But I also praise the Lord that He lead me out of the LC a couple decades later. When He led me to where I've been these past 22 years, I saw that there were indeed many fresh riches of Christ in places other than the LC. It was then that He began to show me how much His love for us is the foundation of everything He does. This understanding of His love as His primary motivator is what began to open up scriptures to me like never before. (In the LC we learned about God's eternal purpose, but not so much about how primary His love for us is!)

Regrettably, this forum can be a little like the political situation in this country, that is, greatly polarized with each side often talking past the other . . .

[aron]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

So at first, with the website banner saying "Making sense of the Lord's Recovery Movement", it may seem like a place for purely discussion.

When I asked on this discussion forum, "How is it that some of the RecV Psalms footnotes say that imprecations (cursing, diatribes) are Christ defeating Satan, whilst most Psalms in RecV are footnoted as "fallen", saying we're called to bless, not curse?" the LC-attending poster replied, "Maybe that's the way it is." Some discussion. If you don't help me here, forgive me if I come to my own conclusions.

I asked, "How can a man who violates Paul's word to Titus on an elder having believing children be a spiritual giant, and apostle of the age?" Such a person who's disqualified to be a local church elder shouldn't be para-church leader. But no answers have ever been forthcoming.

I asked about conflict of interest, that a para-church leader (Witness Lee) asked for investments to fund a for-profit business run by family members (Timothy Lee). Not to mention that the company went belly-up and the money disappeared and when asked by erstwhile investors, Lee said, "That's my business". No discussion from the LC attendees. Not one single response that I'm aware of.

Or that women wrote books like "God's Plan of Redemption" by Mary McDonough, sold by LSM and cited as a basis of "The three parts of man", yet "women can't teach", per Paul? Not to mention Margaret Barber, Ruth Lee, Dora Yu, Peace Wang, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madam Guyon... why the discrepancy of women's roles in the early 'recovery' versus 100 years later? No comments ever came back in answer.

Or that "the economy of God" includes the concept of 'intensification' - where does Paul write of this? John may have referenced it in Revelation 1:4 (or perhaps not), but where did Paul ever reference this? And if Paul didn't teach this in Scripture, why do we think Paul was asking Timothy to make sure this was being taught in Ephesus?

And how come nobody can ask such questions in LC meetings in front of senior brothers and co-workers without being called "negative"? Until someone from the LC addresses these and many more issues, please prepare to have your enjoyment challenged. Hopefully the questions are respectful and not scornful, but be sure that the questions are there.

[SeekingWisdom]

It is not that I believe LSM cannot be critiqued. I agree very much that LSM has a poor attitude towards other Christians. In one of the publications it was written that we should have no attitude of seeing people as simply sinners and Christians. There is no need to mention "Christianity". But countless times have I heard "degraded Christianity" or those "poor Christians" lost in religion. I do not hold the same view as LSM. Unfortunately, many saints subconsciously (or for the really zealous ones consciously) have a condescending attitude towards other believers.

Many times I do question the things in the "ministry" (I prefer to just call it LSM publications), and I do get the weird look from fellow LC members. I appreciate LSM publications but I am deeply concerned about how invasive it has become. And it is used as a tool for control.

Now with the problem involving women/sisters. This is my analysis of how the problem arose.

The leadership value the "vision" to the utmost. So they will do anything to protect it. I remember reading somewhere, Nee or Lee, in the early church life allowed certain sisters to lead. And it became a problem. So as a reaction to this it confirmed their idea that having woman leading is not God-ordained and becomes problematic.

Another example; in the FTTH, they had more relaxed regulations concerning relationships. After relationship problems arose, they began to introduce and enforce strict rules concerning relationships. It was not so much the relationships, but the relationships causing a distraction to the training.

You can see there is a pattern, where a problem occurs, there is a strong reaction to "protect" the vision/recovery. Ironically, even at the expense of the truth and/or the saints.

They are afraid that exposing a certain brothers will damage the recovery. I feel that it is not so much covering the brother, but more protecting this "vision". Thus, explaining the reluctant attitude towards admitting mistakes.

That is just my simplified analysis of the root problems that are in the LC.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

The leadership value the "vision" to the utmost. So they will do anything to protect it. I remember reading somewhere, Nee or Lee, in the early church life allowed certain sisters to lead. And it became a problem. So as a reaction to this it confirmed their idea that having woman leading is not God-ordained and becomes problematic.

Another example; in the FTTH, they had more relaxed regulations concerning relationships. After relationship problems arose, they began to introduce and enforce strict rules concerning relationships. It was not so much the relationships, but the relationships causing a distraction to the training.

You can see there is a pattern, where a problem occurs, there is a strong reaction to "protect" the vision/recovery. Ironically, even at the expense of the truth and/or the saints.

They are afraid that exposing a certain brothers will damage the recovery. I feel that it is not so much covering the brother, but more protecting this "vision". Thus, explaining the reluctant attitude towards admitting mistakes.

I think you hit on something here regarding this valuing the vision above all else. That is how I remember the Recovery - all about the vision and God's purpose. As I have conveyed many times on here, the impression I got there was that God was primarily a God of purpose and He would get His purpose no matter what. While there's some real truth to that, and I praise the Lord for seeing that He has a high purpose, what got conveyed was that if you stood in the way of His purpose, He would crush you! This promotes fear.

The proper way of seeing God's purpose is that God is love - HE LOVES US and He has a plan and purpose resulting from His love for us.

Of course, one part of the vision of the Recovery is that His practical purpose is with local churches. Nothing inherently wrong with that statement, as all Christian groups are practically local, but saying you have THE VISION of oneness and therefore others just need to see that vision is most elitist and divisive. And in order for the organization of the LC and LSM to continue, that vision must be protected at all costs, resulting in another manmade division.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

Now with the problem involving women/sisters. This is my analysis of how the problem arose.

The leadership value the "vision" to the utmost. So they will do anything to protect it. I remember reading somewhere, Nee or Lee, in the early church life allowed certain sisters to lead. And it became a problem. So as a reaction to this it confirmed their idea that having woman leading is not God-ordained and becomes problematic.

If you attempt to acknowledge shortcomings in the LC as you've done here you won't be treated with contempt and scorn. It's a refreshing change from the "hear no evil" of LC apologists, with the strange juxtaposition of lauding of the early lionesses of the recovery church, followed shortly thereafter by disparaging remarks about "spiritual sisters". The disconnect couldn't be more glaring, and nobody can acknowledge it for fear of being labeled. So everyone sits there and takes it. And what happens to the enjoyment? Diminished significantly, if not removed altogether.

So your ability to acknowledge this is huge. I hope you enjoy your discussion on this forum. I've learned a lot here. Mostly I just use if for a sounding board for ideas. Yes, we often talk past each other but then one feels that one's being heard, which is gratifying. Hoping you get the same experience. As far as the "bitter ex-member" thing there may be truth to that but when people don't get heard they get frustrated. A little acknowledgement goes a long way to healing, and removing bitterness. Blessed are the peacemakers.

[SeekingWisdom]

Yes, it grieves me greatly when I see problems covered up or dismissed all for the sake of "keeping the vision" and "oneness" (a term which is widely misused/practiced in the LC). I wonder where is the love. I hope that these "responsible brothers" would acknowledge their mistakes, that they would repent.

But allow me to say this, may the ones that have suffered find much comfort and grace. He is the righteous One, and vengeance is His. May they be released from the bitterness and find peace and joy in the Lord.

May His love prevail in all of us.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

Yes, that is correct. I am now registered.

From my understanding, when you look at the face of this website you have the following:

* Testimonies of coming out from the LC
* Denouncing of the works of Nee and Lee and even the persons
* LC being a cult

So at first, with the website banner saying "Making sense of the Lord's Recovery Movement", it may seem like a place for purely discussion. But a lot of the threads involve rehabilitation, tips on how to recover from traumatic experiences in the LC, etc. Declaring all the works of Lee (and maybe Nee) should be thrown out. Of course, this may not be the feeling or representation of the all the members but at the face of this website, this is what is presented.

So it would seem to be a hostile environment for those that are still enjoying their time in the LC or do not have anything personally against the LC.

I would like to ask, if someone shared a post about a positive experience or testimony concerning the LC, how many members here would be offended, hold with contempt, or assume that it was fabricated/fake. Or be very suspicious.

Please do not misunderstand. I am not dismissing the experiences and testimonies of those that have suffered in the LD's Recovery. I am merely just presenting a different perspective. Nothing more, nothing less.

I personally have not posted here because I do not know how to contribute. I have a tendency of just observing. But I have recently gained an interest in having a bit of dialogue with the people here.

My standing as a LC member:
I think there are many things wrong with the LC. I think LSM played a huge factor to that problem (along with a number of other things). But I still see the believers here as dear brothers and sisters. As do I see any fellow believer (regardless of whether they are in the LC).

SeekingWisdom, welcome to the forum -

Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that there have indeed been 1) threads started by members sharing positive experiences (as well as calling this site "negative") and 2) maybe even an actual thread started specifically asking what are some positive things people got from their time in the LC.

There are different ways to share positive experiences. Some ways imply that the negative experiences aren't real, and those will be met with contempt, because they are an attempt to silence and negate and invalidate real pain. Some ways give their own experience which happens to be good, while also acknowledging the bad that others have experienced. I have seen plenty of people agree when the good experiences are obviously truthful or are plainly not intended to send a contrary message about the painful things people have endured.

SW, is there anything specific that caused you to recently gain an interest in having a bit of dialogue here?

I agree there are many things wrong with the LC. My concern is the nature of what is wrong. The things that are wrong, to me, point to a deeper, hidden, systemic and frankly dark core that needs to be brought under the shining of a 10,000 kilowatt bulb. The things that are wrong are an interwoven, interconnected, interdependent, network mesh of deceptively "off" teachings that are just subtly crooked enough to negate the gospel while making the followers think they are extra-specially chosen by God, when really they are just specially deceived.

In the Bible when we are dealing with false doctrines, teachings that lead people astray, false apostles that abuse the sheep, the pattern is repeatedly to do something about it. Teach the healthy things, watch your life and teachings closely, don't be lead astray, don't put up with false apostles, etc... Vengeance is the Lord's, yes. But speaking the truth and calling out sin and darkness is also ours.

[SeekingWisdom]

I read through quite a lot of the material testifying against LSM and the LC. I invested a lot of time reading through testimonies, open letters, and even some recordings. I occasionally check for new threads on this website. All of it was for the sake of drawing a picture of what LSM and LC was, and what it has become. So I didn't bother posting here because my intention initially was not to have a discussion but to investigate into this multifaceted problem and gain understanding of the root of all the problems.

I can't do much to change things in a big way, but hopefully by understanding the problems I could gain some wisdom and live a life that properly expresses Him. And have positive influence to the people around me, especially believers in the LC.

But sorry, I have digressed. To answer your question:
I wasn't too sure what to discuss, or even what and how to reply. Nor did I give it much thought. But as I scrolled down the front page of this website my attention was caught with the question "Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?". It made me think, it might be beneficial for me to have a bit of discussion with the people here. Gain new perspective and some light.

Yes. I agree with you on that. But I lack the wisdom to address this issues in a proper way as a young brother. For me, it does not seem as simple as just exposing the sin and darkness (not too sure if that is what you meant by calling out). Or exposing sin and darkness in such a way that leads to life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

I read through quite a lot of the material testifying against LSM and the LC. I invested a lot of time reading through testimonies, open letters, and even some recordings. I occasionally check for new threads on this website. All of it was for the sake of drawing a picture of what LSM and LC was, and what it has become.

An internet forum may function as an echo chamber in which consensus views get amplified and contrary observations don't get as much traction. To gain a comprehensive picture requires a fair amount of independent searching, which may in turn lead the searcher to find themselves in the minority, or on the outside. Why? Because the echo chamber doesn't want them, either.

But that's an occupational hazard, one perhaps worth the challenge, as different voices need to speak out. Each one has a distinct view, none are entirely useless, nor are any all-encompassing.

Somewhat related, I heard of Shoichi Yokoi, who surrendered to U.S. military in 1972, after hiding in a cave on Guam island for 28 years, waiting for Imperial Japanese Forces to come and rescue him in the glorious victory he'd been promised, and that he and so many gave all to see.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoichi_Yokoi

When you invest so much, and expect so much, you may reject evidence to the contrary, even when it piles up that your hopes are vain. Now, some may say this about me, that I believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. They'll say, "There's no God", or "Even if God exists why would this Jesus be the Way". Yet I stubbornly persist in my faith.

So even while I commend LC members for their faith, and partly agree, I ask them to consider to what extent their group doesn't accord with the NT or maintain coherence in its own testimony. Where would Mary McDonough be today in the LC? Women can't teach right? Yet her book is offered on LSM websites and her teaching "God's Plan of Redemption" is referred as instrumental to WN and WL's subsequent work. Not to mention Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Dora Yu, Peace Wang - where would they find room to function in the LC of 2021? Yet they're lauded today as lionesses of the Lord's recovery. Not to mention Ruth Lee, Margaret Barber, Elizabeth Fischbacher (WN's amanuensis who traveled with him to Keswick and transcribed him). Do any notice the obvious contradiction?

How could Paul ask Timothy to make sure to teach a version of God's economy that includes intensification, if John hadn't yet penned his Apocalypse on Patmos?

Why did the pillars in Jerusalem ask Paul to remember the poor, to which he said he was eager, and not, "I don't care for that - I'm only here for God's economy"? What if their request in Galatians 2:10 was part of God's economy? You know, all Jesus' teachings: "Give and it shall be given to you, pressed down, shaken, running over" and "Store up for yourselves treasure in heaven where moths can't eat and rust can't corrupt and thieves can't steal" and "give to those who can't repay you and you'll be repaid in the resurrection"? What if Paul's writings on this theme in 1 Corinthians, Romans, 2 Corinthians (2 chapters!) are on this very subject of God's economy?

How could WL be minister of the age if he didn't control his adult children from abusing the church members? How can you violate Paul's word to Titus (1:6) on local church elders and be a para-church apostle?

Why did "the age turn" when WL passed? Suddenly no more revelation, no more "fresh bread", just curating the deceased MOTA's revelations? The age of spiritual giants ended when WL passed? What Bible verses, if any, were referenced for that bold claim?

Watchman Nee read some 3,000 spiritual classics, so-called. Clearly these were from many sources, not all were MOTAs. Why can't we also read many authors and create our own synthesis? If there's a ministry of the age for each successive generation, why did WN obviously draw on other, non-MOTA sources? Clearly WN violated the "One Publication" principle if he drew on a library of 3,000 books in his spiritual development.

Why was David supposedly wrong to wish his enemies harm in Psalm 3, and yet wishing others harm in Psalm 68 was a type of Christ's victory over Satan? The RecV footnotes are not consistent. Has anyone else noticed this?

I asked some of these questions a while back and an otherwise eloquent LC attendee replied curtly, "Why don't you examine yourself" and "maybe that's how it is". Well, I'm not being promoted as God's oracle, and maybe that's NOT how it is. At some point, the accumulated mass of evidence becomes compelling, that the LC isn't actually what it's presented as. It's neither consistent in its own self-testimony, nor with Scripture, nor with the long record of Christian witness over the centuries.

[aron]

Following the last post, for those Local Church members still holed up in their cave, two further questions for consideration and discussions:

Why did the leader of a non-profit organization start a for-profit corporation, and ask members of the non-profit (the church) to invest in the for-profit (Daystar), which company was run by his son? If Timothy Lee was the President of Daystar, didn't that create the appearance of a conflict of interest for his father Witness Lee? If he was the Seer of the Divine Revelation, couldn't he see that there was an apparent conflict of interest? For that matter, couldn't anyone see? Some could, as Don Rutledge has attested here. But if so, then why could no one speak up?

On a related note, how could a book publisher who set doctrine for the church by selling their books, then tell the church that it could have only one source of books sold in church? Again, this clearly created the appearance of a conflict of interest.

Now, if humankind were perfected then we wouldn't care about such apparent conflicts. But humankind isn't perfect (which btw is a main point of the Bible), so clearly self-serving rules and practices as seen above indicate a compromised leadership to objective observers. Until LC members begin to discuss this, and explain that it's somehow otherwise, most will probably reach such conclusions. And "maybe that's how it is" doesn't make an explanation.

And until LC members make some effort to openly sort through it, we'll have the persistent vision of Shoichi Yokoi sitting in his cave in Guam, vainly waiting for the Imperial Navy to sail up and defeat the surrounding U.S. forces. The cave may seem safe and secure, but the Japanese have moved on, and gotten on with things. I'm sorry but the news is that the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere didn't succeed. The war's over... long over... it's 1972, man. The war ended a long time ago.

I remember in the late '80s and early '90s that we were promised if we just gave ourselves fully to the New Way, the Lord himself would return in 15 years. We were drunk with anticipation, we were reeling under the proposed glory of it all. I do remember the giddiness of those meetings. O what joy, we all shouted. What golden opportunity has come to us! Then 28 years later, a few are still sitting in a cave wondering where's the navy. At some point a light should go on.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

From my understanding, when you look at the face of this website you have the following:
* Testimonies of coming out from the LC
* Denouncing of the works of Nee and Lee and even the persons
* LC being a cult

Firstly, thank you so much for coming to our forum and registering. Please forgive me for not welcoming you sooner.

Your critique of our little forum is legitimate and certainly understandable. Conversely, I hope and trust that God would show you that many of the testimonies and critiquing by the former Local Church members here are also legitimate and worthy of your thoughtful consideration.

So it would seem to be a hostile environment for those that are still enjoying their time in the LC or do not have anything personally against the LC.

Again, a legitimate and understandable concern for someone in your position. Yet I must tell you that it would probably seem a lot less of a hostile environment for current members if they would come and take advantage of the opportunity for open discussion that this venue provides. And I probably don't have to remind you that no such opportunity or venue is provided by the powers that be there in Anaheim.

I would like to ask, if someone shared a post about a positive experience or testimony concerning the LC, how many members here would be offended, hold with contempt, or assume that it was fabricated/fake. Or be very suspicious.

Again, this is an open forum. So long as the rules of the forum are followed, positive testimonies are welcomed! What I can't guarantee you is that some of the former LC members here won't be critiquing, and maybe even give a little push back. Being a longtime former LC member, I do appreciate and understand that it can be very disconcerting and uncomfortable when one's testimony is not welcomed with a round of hearty "AMEN"s. And so long as this is understood then all will be well with all concerned.
-

[SeekingWisdom]

It's good to be here, thanks for the welcome.

I am personally not critiquing the website, I am just merely stating my observations and providing a possible insight as to why the LC members may not want to post here. I could also be way off.

For me, I normally do not get involved with online discussion forums. I think there is some inertia to become involved in something like a forum. People tend to just lurk anonymously rather than contribute because it takes a bit of effort.

I don't look for "Amens" or confirming words. Nor do I avoid critiquing, I welcome it. So if anything I say is inaccurate, do point it out please.

Now to address some of the issues that @aron pointed out.

I believe that WL mishandled the financial matters and that is probably an understatement. I see it as something that is quite scandalous because WL is a figure of great influence. I do not think that anyone should involve the church for personal financial ventures. From what I have observed, it seemed like WL had become commercially minded with the excuse of being pragmatic/practical. And he downplayed the matter, or at the very least in his mind, it was a matter of little significance; just a minor hiccup.

If you have read the transcript (from the call concerning Daystar) and even the way the brothers speak to and how they refer to WL, shows they had a deep respect for WL. Along with their great appreciation for what WL has seemingly done for them, they were willing to probably overlook or remain ignorant to the situation. Probably easier for the brothers that were not directly involved with the matter. To give an analogy, I guess you can imagine someone that you hold to the highest regard, with much respect, ends up doing something questionable. Would you not be somewhat reluctant to address this problem. Would you not hope that it was simply a misunderstanding or something that could not be helped (unforeseeable risk). From the transcript, you can tell the brother was desperately hoping that WL would either admit the mistake or just be transparent. Now I am not justifying the actions of overlooking the issue. Just providing may be a new perspective.

Concerning the one publication work. Yes there is a conflict of interest. Members are free to read from other sources but it is repeated again and again that you will be wasting your time. That WL and WN has already done the work and have extracted the "cream of the crop" from the wide selection of Christian books so no need to look further. Not all members have this view, but this is the widely accept view concerning reading from other sources.

Now from my point of view, I consider LSM and the local churches to be separate entities. And I hope that one day, there would be a proper separation. We get statements like LSM is just a publication office but obviously it has been integrated deeply into the LC, especially in the bigger localities.

One of the bigger problems that I have faced recently is the fact that people, and unfortunately those that are in influential positions have a tendency of speaking with inaccuracies. What I mean is that they say things that they don't actually mean. So misunderstandings are common. I understand we can make a mistake in our speaking but saints that are teaching others or speaking in a position of influence should be careful with how they handle they truth and how they convey it. Sometimes some of the trainers sacrifice the accuracy of the truth they are trying to convey for the sake of making a point which may not even be that relevant. (P.s. this is a problem in the LC that I am facing).

I am not too sure what you were trying to get at with "humankind were perfected" comment. If you could elaborate/clarify it would be much appreciated.

And yes, there are inconsistencies in the ministry books. I acknowledge that. So as I said, I only take what I think is valuable.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

I don't look for "Amens" or confirming words. Nor do I avoid critiquing, I welcome it. So if anything I say is inaccurate, do point it out please.

I also welcome you and get your motives. Although I like 'amens' I don't need them. It's a good exercise to write publicly and think aloud as it were*, and to accept others' critiques.

Originally Posted by SeekingWisdom

I'm not too sure what you were trying to get at with "humankind were perfected" comment. If you could elaborate/clarify it would be much appreciated.

I was playing on James Madison's thought [Federalist Papers] that if men were angels, then government would be unnecessary. But men are not, so government, constituted with corrupted men, tends to corruption itself. Thus, said JM, there must be checks and balances. With religious organisations, we begin with good intentions. But eventually, because humankind isn't perfected, those well-meaning entities become the antithesis of their original purpose. So there must be transparency, accountability. (In WL's organisation there's been neither, so forgive us if we suspect the worst.)

Suppose we see people in Uganda without running water, and say, "Let's create a group to raise money, go over and help." All well and good, and some may do just that. But others may raise millions and years later we hear that they pad expenses, have luxurious offices and country club memberships. And three wells got dug. So $46 million dollars got raised and three wells got dug and 45.995 million got siphoned off by the family of the founder.

If you think I'm overboard, see KP Yohannon and Gospel for Asia. It reeks. (and now he's tight with Hank Hanegraaf, what a surprise)

Regarding tolerance and/or deference with Daystar in particular, I see three types of enabling, or lack of accountability. First, as you noted, those who hold leaders in regard because of position. The NT says that believers should respect those in authority, both religious and secular (not as man-pleasers but respecting God's ordering).

Then there's the intimidation factor, as ones who speak up get expelled from the assembly, and publicly reviled. Last, there's corruption, as followers who pushed to have Daystar [i.e. Lee family] loans forgiven are now on LSM payroll, as are their family members. I can't prove a causal connection but that's the impression.

Maybe Ravi Zacharias started off meaning to serve God, but look how it played out - even his family got sucked into the money/power/abuse vortex and tried to cover him after the lid blew off. It's not surprising, knowing humanity, yes even Christian humanity. Jim Bakker also began with good intentions, a genuine convert with a heart for the flock. But once on television the money began to flow, and ''here a little, there a little''...it goes to order, and to disorder.

*My verse for this sort of discussion, of multiple competing options being played out, is Acts 15:7. There was diversity of view, but one accord in fraternity.