|
If you really Nee to know Who was Watchman Nee? Discussions regarding the life and times of Watchman Nee, the Little Flock and the beginnings of the Local Church Movement in Mainland China |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
11-26-2014, 08:20 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
This thread is intended to address parts of Nee’s ministry that aren’t commonly covered or discussed in the LC. I wanted to initially discuss one of Nee’s book titled “The Latent Power of the Soul” It is available to read online here:
http://www.worldinvisible.com/librar...f00.0634.c.htm It can also be found in the Collected Works of Watchman Nee Vol. 10: The Present Testimony Ch 9-11. While reading Philip Lin’s book “Sacrifice and Sail On”, Lin made reference to Nee’s “Latent Power” book, and the obviously peculiar sounding title caught my attention. Out of curiosity, I went ahead and read the book. I was a bit taken aback by this book (even a little freaked out), not so much because of the content, but because I realized that Nee really believed some bizarre things. Over the years in the LC, I have heard references to Nee’s “not recommended” works or people will say stuff like “you have to be careful about reading some of Nee’s books”. I guess this is one of those books. People outside of the LC have essentially said that this book isn't for the faint of heart. Nee himself said that he purposely didn't include the contents of this book in "The Spiritual Man". Nonetheless, I think that it is important to consider who Nee was by taking into consideration all parts of his ministry, not just what the LC focuses on. To summarize “The Latent Power of the Soul”, Nee attempts to prove that Adam originally possessed superhuman abilities that were “immobilized” after the fall. He then goes on to warn that people can still possibly release this “latent” power today. He talks a lot about parapsychology and science from his day (now considered to be pseudoscience). In the latter part of the book, he attempts to apply his teaching to warn Christians against having highly “emotional” experiences of the Lord. I don’t find any value in reading this book other than it being insightful into the “other” side of Nee. I will go more into detail of some of the contents of this book if there is sufficient interest in discussing this subject. |
11-26-2014, 09:28 PM | #2 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 641
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
|
11-26-2014, 09:48 PM | #3 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
At any rate, it has always bothered me that no one in the LC ever gives things like this a little bit of thought. If Nee was influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings, yet we are being warned against reading her writings, what does that imply? |
|
11-26-2014, 10:36 PM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
Posts: 1,376
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Personally speaking, I sure look forward to walking through walls like Jesus did, to disappear and appear like Jesus did, to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. Awww.... to have the MIND OF CHRIST manifested in me, in us !! COME LORD JESUS! When He comes for His Bride, we are going to defy gravity ! We are going to meet JESUS IN THE AIR ! HALLELUIAH TO THE LAMB OF GOD !
__________________
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
11-26-2014, 10:37 PM | #5 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 600
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
|
11-27-2014, 05:27 AM | #6 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-27-2014, 06:30 AM | #7 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 641
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
No skiing is different. Much easier. Heavy sledding means: difficult, rigorous. Here are some synonyms for heavy sledding to make it clearer and some apply to my statement more than others: arduous, rough, strenuous, demanding, exacting, formidable, hairy, hard, harsh, heavy, knotty, laborious, large order, mean, trying, no picnic, taxing, uncompromising, uphill ...
__________________
LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
11-27-2014, 06:56 AM | #8 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 96
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Evan Roberts was emotionally unbalanced and was physically very weak. This took a heavy toll on his body and mental state and he had numerous nervous breakdowns. Jessie Penn-Lewis and her husband took him in and he stayed with them for several years. I would rather suggest that she and her husband helped him to recover and they allowed him to stay with them until he felt he was ready to resume his preaching. This simply did not materialize any time soon. Around 1914 he surprised many by declaring that the Lord would return that year. This alienated him from many, even those close to him. His biggest problem is that he found very little acceptance among the clergy in Wales. He only started with his training to become an ordained pastor but he never completed his studies. This was the reason many looked down on him as "unqualified and untrained". When you read the reports of the Welsh revival of 1904–1905 (often referred to as "awakenings") you cannot but help to conclude that it was much more about the person and style of Evan Roberts. When he stopped preaching after suffering a serious breakdown, the "revival" died a quick death. |
|
11-27-2014, 07:08 AM | #9 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
I wasn't told back then, but have since learned, that JP-L thought that at least some of the Welsh revival had become demon possessed. Jessie taught that Christians could become demon possessed. Thus "War on the Saints." And thus, she stifled Evan Roberts and the revival. She's called the Jezebel of the Welsh revival ... or mockingly, Jezzie. Just goggle "Jezebel of the Welsh revival."
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
|
11-27-2014, 07:48 AM | #10 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 96
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Evan Roberts was very independent and spiritually immature. Initially, the main thing that drew people to his meetings, was his habit of "calling out" people. For example, "In the third row on the balcony is a man who hates his neighbor", or something like that. In the early stages of the revival a "guilty one" would stand up and confess, leading to "oohs" and "aahs" and "amens". Some "guilty ones" were regularly openly shamed by Roberts. Later, it often happened that there was no response to his "calling out". This caused him to despair and to become more and more erratic in his conduct. His behavior increasingly certainly did not endear him to many of his followers. Evan Roberts' style was similar to that of the Benny Hinns of today. Jessie Penn-Lewis wrote a well-documented book on the Welsh Revival. She was very positive and credible about the awakening of 1904–1905. I my opinion the main destroyer of the Welsh Revival was Evan Roberts himself, not "Jezzie". |
|
11-27-2014, 10:12 AM | #11 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
It seems that the Scylla and Charybdis of the Christian journey is that we can become "dead letters" people on the one hand (like the Pharisees), and on the other side we can become too enamored of sensory experience and thus unbalanced, easily suggestive and led astray. The local churches of Lee perhaps had the worst of both worlds. On the one hand they were influenced by the jot-and-tittle Exclusive Bretheren. On the other hand they were heavily influenced by the Charismatic and Revival themes. I never forget Witness Lee incessantly pounding the theme that we were dead, dormant, stagnant, etc, and we had to "stir ourselves up" and get revived. People were drunk on the Charismatic experience, not on the Holy Spirit. I still remembered the glassy-eyed look in the meetings: ecstasy, euphoria, and excitement, but very little truth. As soon as you critically examine the Nee and Lee teachings, and compare them to the Bible, they fall apart. So we shouted slogans at each other. Open shaming was habitually practiced, but it was called "training" and so forth. But one sacrificial lamb would be dragged up for all to feed upon. Terrible. But when you soberly examine scripture, you see a vast disparity between what was taught in those trainings and conferences, and what is written. I now have come to believe that the Holy Spirit will indeed come if you remain and abide in the Word. Yes it may involve repetition, it may involve declaration and insistent prayer. But it is not something for public spectacle. It is more like a private mountaintop kind of experience, that when you come down people can see that you are different. When you open your mouth something else comes forth, instead of the usual vanity. What showed me that Lee was selling a pseudo-spiritual experience of soulish excitement with little substance was the fact that he habitually ignored and belittled the Word of God. He declared that much of it was a dry hole, void of Christ or Spirit. He could not have been more wrong. Much of the words which he called "vain" and "natural" and "fallen" and "soulish" was actually full of God's Spirit. But Lee didn't linger there, and wait. He simply aped some 19th century Bible teacher and passed on. He was in a hurry for the next teaching, the next revelation. And we all, hungry for the next wave of excitement, went along with him. We quickly passed over the Word in pursuit of more sensory affectations. The Word became "old" to us, and our excitement became "new". So we remained in ignorance, waiting for the next "revival".
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
|
11-27-2014, 11:00 AM | #12 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
When I have more time, I am going to provide some quotes from Nee's "The Latent Power of the Soul", and I think it will be immediately evident just how peculiar some of his views are. I do realize that some here may fully agree with Nee, and that is fine. My goal is not to claim that Nee was wrong, but rather to look at some of Nee's teachings that may be considered aberrant. |
|
11-27-2014, 11:43 AM | #13 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Quote:
But does that really concern US? What concerns us is Nee and Lee. They're much closer to us. Lee came down from Nee. Nee came down from Penn-Lewis. And after being acquainted with both sides of Nee -- his ministry and private life -- it's no surprise Nee was drawn to demonology. Why? Because he was struggling with his own demons. At the same time he was delivering a unbelievable ministry, he was also falling for the forbidden fruit of women. And. In "The Latent Power of the Soul," he speaks of the latent power of the soul .. no dah. His ministry proves he was no stranger to that power. In his early days, when he was falling weak to the flesh, the saints looked up to him like he was a deity. Talk about fighting demons. And of course, much closer up, we have come to be acquainted with Lee's demons. What roll did Penn-Lewis play in all this, and by the way, G.H. Pember? We'll never fully know. But there's enough there to smell a rat.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
||
11-27-2014, 05:16 PM | #14 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 600
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
|
11-27-2014, 05:17 PM | #15 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 600
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
|
11-28-2014, 11:01 AM | #16 | |||
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Before I get into the specifics of Nee’s teaching on humans having a “latent power” in their soul, I wanted discuss how he arrives at this conclusion. Chapter 1 of “The Latent Power of the Soul”, is full of speculation by Nee, as well as an extremely literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3. Nee argues that because God gave Adam dominion over the whole earth, it would have necessitated him to be much more powerful that we are today. Consider the following excerpt from chapter 1:
Quote:
I’m sure that Adam had different capabilities that we have now, however, isn’t it a bit much to say that he had power “a million times over ours”. How does Nee know this? It is nothing but speculation, and it may or may not be true. To further show what kind of “power” Adam had, Nee then goes on to say that in order to name all the animals it would have required incredible brain memory. He also discusses the size of the Garden of Eden and what it would take to manage it: Quote:
After all this speculation on what kind of “power” Adam had, Nee discusses what happened to it after the fall: Quote:
|
|||
11-28-2014, 11:35 AM | #17 | |||
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Now I will point out some things that Nee says about this “latent power”. This also comes from chapter 1. Here 2 quotes on how Nee thinks this “latent power” works:
Quote:
Quote:
Here is something else that Nee says which is just as peculiar: Quote:
|
|||
11-28-2014, 12:06 PM | #18 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
And he was obviously writing under the spell of Penn-Lewis, as he quotes her over and over again, as an authority on these matters. And Penn-Lewis was too far-fetched to use as springboard. As a result Nee couldn't help but be far-fetched. And I think that's being kind. As I think all this latent power of the soul is actually a little tetched. But it suits Nee's sense of specialness, by condemning all of man's religions as products of the latent power of the soul. At this point Nee was a budding MOTA.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
|
11-28-2014, 12:33 PM | #19 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
|
|
11-28-2014, 12:57 PM | #20 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
|
11-28-2014, 02:25 PM | #21 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 641
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
You also have CLC publishing Nee’s books which provided legitimacy. In addition, you have a legitimate co-worker of Nee in WL who had established churches in Taiwan following the revolution in China. What was not to believe? They may have been like us at some point…believed they had found unique insight into the Bible because of their exposure to Christian writings which quite honestly were not “traditional fundamental writings” although they were certainly Christian but with a unique twist. Obviously the entire “local church” idea sprung out of Nee’s exposure to Darby and Brethren teachings, his surroundings (as I noted previously) and the 1881 "Little Flock Hymn Book" (Brethren). Didn’t we all believe we had found something unique that was not available in Christianity when we first were involved with the LC? When I first became involved in the LC and was introduced to pray-reading and calling out “Oh Lord Jesus” I thought, wow, a practical way to carry out the message of WN in his books since I had already read them and shared them with whomever would listen. I was also introduced to “The Normal Christian Church Life” at the same time by WN and because of the other writings I had been introduced to by WN (via Angus Kinnear) I was willing to buy into the whole picture. The craziness developed out of Lee’s insistence on controlling everything and some of his unusual practices which really didn’t accomplish what we all thought they would: the Normal Christian Life. It became the Abnormal Christian Life in kind of a crazy Church Life structure. Whether Nee or Lee were megalomaniacs is beyond the point. It is how these individuals affected us and overall they turned the "local church" experience into a cult like culture which is still going on today.
__________________
LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
|
11-28-2014, 05:36 PM | #22 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
In the LC, whether anyone will admit it or not, there is the pressure placed on everyone to be "spiritual". Actually they will usually say just the opposite that we shouldn't strive to be "spiritual". When you look at the example set by LC leaders, it is obvious that there is a heavy emphasis on spirituality. At the surface it seems like this is a good thing to emphasize. Several years ago, I witnessed someone in the LC have a complete mental breakdown over the period of several months by attempting to be too "spiritual". Nee and Lee did know how to convey teachings that at least sounded good, but they didn't know how to properly put these teachings into practice. That's not even to mention teachings that should have never been put into practice in the first place. Did the ministries of those like Jessie Penn-Lewis have anything useful? Maybe, but my concern is that Nee did not know what he was dealing with. As a young man, he encountered all kinds of writings that may have sounded good, but did he really know what he was getting himself into? Did he really know how to separate the wheat from the chaff? I really feel like Nee and Lee were playing with fire. They felt they knew it all, and they were reckless. To us their ministries just seemed to offer a good alternative to the status quote. |
|
11-28-2014, 05:50 PM | #23 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
In our local elders and deacons meetings we read thru Nee's Normal Christian Church Life together. I had somehow naively thought that this book was the definitive "blueprint" for our practice of the churchlife and the work of ministry. Was I wrong! What we had at LSM had nothing to do with Nee's writing. Page after page of Nee's writing was violated by the practices of LSM, which btw did not start with the Blendeds, but with Lee decades earlier. What Lee developed at LSM had nothing to do with either the Bible nor with Nee's book.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-28-2014, 06:04 PM | #24 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
So it's no wonder we had so many failed marriages, mental breakdown, and general "disconnects" with real life. Evil workers simply considered these as collateral, the inevitable consequences of spiritual warfare. Their callous attitudes towards personal pain infected the whole system. With either Anaheim or Cleveland at the helm, I eventually concluded that individual member churches existed solely for the prosperity of the leadership at headquarters. We served only to build their empires and provide them glory here on earth.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-28-2014, 06:23 PM | #25 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 641
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
|
11-28-2014, 06:38 PM | #26 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
I feel like there are several factors at play here, the most obvious being the required submission to the BB's. This is what renders the local elders and shepherds powerless. I think that even if the BB's are removed from the picture, there is still a problem. I have no knowledge of how Titus is, but I get the impression that he might feel that the teachings of Nee and Lee (to a lesser extent) are completely acceptable if practiced in the absence of the BB's and Anaheim. Is this correct Ohio? I really feel that many of Nee's and Lee's teachings, when put into practice, are prone to failure. Since I am most knowledgeable of Lee's teachings, I can comment on him more. I have read all kinds of WL's writings on shepherding, the "God-Ordained Way", etc. If these teachings really were what they are made out to be, then why are they a failure time after time? Why are brothers in 2014 still trying to bring churches into the practice of PSRP? I refuse to participate in that kind of nonsense, because I know better. Most in the LC don't, so they are lead down a path destined for failure. Most of the time, I think that failure just results in discouragement, but the instances of strained marriages, mental breakdowns, etc are what are particularly troubling to me. From what I have read of Nee's writings, many things could be dangerous if taken too seriously. I think "The Latent Power of the Soul" is a prime example of that. Nee's more mainstream teachings seem more "safe", but even then great care has to be taken regarding how they are put into practice. Just look at what Lee did with Nee's concept of a local church. |
|
11-28-2014, 06:51 PM | #27 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
I've always understood that Nee never really had a solid opportunity to put his concept of the local churches into practice (Steve Isitt's recent writing on Nee provides insight on that), so the concept of local churches were left to Lee's imagination. Lee's version does not match what Nee conveyed in the NCCL, and I think Lee himself eventually realized that. He was quick to oust brothers when they pointed out the disparities between the current state of the local churches and what the NCCL describes. That's not even considering how "correct" Nee's view of the local church is. |
|
11-28-2014, 06:54 PM | #28 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 600
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
|
11-28-2014, 07:11 PM | #29 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 600
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Perhaps it's six of one, half dozen of the other? My point is, maybe Lee was genuinely trying to build what Nee proposed. Or, maybe he was using Nee as a springboard to build up his own little family empire. Perhaps a little of both. But we can at least acknowledge, whatever it is exactly, it didn't turn out so well.
__________________
And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
|
11-29-2014, 03:53 AM | #30 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-29-2014, 06:05 AM | #31 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
The assessment of "divisions" is subjective, based on how you want to see things, and how you want to interpret the words of someone writng 2,000 years ago. I have mentioned already that 'ecclesia' had meanings different from what we call 'church' today. Today we massage our terminology, and we can have multiple 'meetings' of 'one church'. But we're just re-arranging words according to preference. So we end up condemning others, and congratulate ourselves for doing the same thing. And how is the unification of the church under Nee and then Lee any better than revived popery?
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
|
11-29-2014, 01:15 PM | #32 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Additionally, many of the larger "local churches" now have multiple meeting halls in one city, being divided by "districts" or sections of a city. If the ground of locality doctrine defines the boundaries of a city as a local church, then how come they now subdivide cities? Another thing that comes to mind is that many meetings are divided by language (ethnicity). I see lots and lots of division in the LC, the very thing they speak out against. I also don't intend to claim that the doctrine of "local churches" when practiced correctly according to Nee, would be anything better. I mentioned earlier that I get the impression that Nee probably never had a solid opportunity to see how his teaching on "local churches" played out. Considering that he himself was excommunicated from the Shanghai Assembly, maybe he himself realized later on that his teaching wasn't going to work like he thought. |
|
11-29-2014, 03:56 PM | #33 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 968
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
I think another de facto division has entered the LSM-associated local churches and that is between those who have graduated from the full-time training and those regular ones who have not.
|
11-29-2014, 04:31 PM | #34 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
|
11-29-2014, 05:01 PM | #35 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 734
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
My sister in law also attended and had a mental breakdown during the training. She left with what looks like life long schizophrenia from all the stress and criticism from the trainers (she could never be on time for the meetings and they constantly shamed her and made her write reports on ministry lessons/outlines each time). After she came away with mental illness, there was very little sympathy for her from LC members but instead she still received a lot criticism and blaming. The training pretty much ruined her life. It's a good thing you didn't go if you were pressured to do so.
__________________
1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. |
|
11-29-2014, 07:01 PM | #36 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Secondly, what's the difference between an LC with Chinese meetings and workers, and a church which actually labels themselves as Chinese. WL made a strong case that the reality was in the name -- call it by the "right name" and we alone will have all the heavenly blessings God has to give.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-29-2014, 07:07 PM | #37 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Which by the way is the definition of hypocrisy. Can anyone explain the substantive difference between the "Church in Cleveland, Hall 2" and the "2nd Church of Christ" located in Cleveland? Word games. I grew weary of them. So I finally left.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-29-2014, 07:12 PM | #38 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
I do know that one of the triggers for adult onset psychosis is an overwhelming stressful situation like that which occurs during rejection or shaming.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-29-2014, 09:12 PM | #39 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 641
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
|
11-30-2014, 09:50 AM | #40 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,223
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
|
11-30-2014, 11:09 AM | #41 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
The push now, from what I hear, is not only to go to the FTTA, but to "serve the ministry" afterward. It would be interesting to see the numbers of how many are on payroll in England and Europe today, compared to 5 or 10 years ago. The FTTA is now the pipeline to serfdom the Living Stream Ministry. To me this is the slavery Paul mentioned in Galatians 5:1. Once you say yes you are in the pipeline and subject to further demands. "The leech has two daughters: give, give they cry."
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
|
11-30-2014, 01:03 PM | #42 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 734
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Actually during one of the winter or summer trainings they made an announcement that anyone "with psychological problems should not apply to the FTTA", suggesting that my sister in law was not the only person to develop mental illness during the training. The irony was my sister-in law probably along with many others was perfectly healthy before going into the training. She was a normal happy and joyful person who loved Jesus. After she left, she became a totally different person and the joy and happiness left her completely and she was later diagnosed with schizophrenia (had to be hospitalized and given life-long medication). Yet along with what aron said, I agree the FTTA isn't a place to find rest or be rehabilitated. As they themselves say, it's a place "to get trained", therefore anything goes. The FTTA is a Witness Lee cloning factory that only takes model LC saints as input to mold them into hardcore soldiers for the "Lord's Recovery". Any saints with defects and don't fit the standard model are to be thrown away and discarded. Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." The only good thing to come out of it so far was that it opened my wife's eyes to what the LC leadership was really like in the hypocritical way they and the elders of my LC treated my sister. It opened the door for me to share all my feelings with my wife and lead her into reading more of LCs history. After we left, we even got calls from my wife's aunt (her and her husband are elders of an LC in Texas) telling her "not to blame the ministry" for what happened to her sister. In their eyes, even though they were family, they couldn't bring themselves to blame the ministry which was beyond reproach. If something went wrong, my sister-in law was to blame and not the toxic environment in the FTTA and the absence of love in the LC elite.
__________________
1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. |
|
11-30-2014, 02:53 PM | #43 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
I wish I could go more into detail in regards to some of those I know in the LC. Simply put, I have seen some who have had panic attacks, severe depression, pent up anger, and the list goes on. Something that is a common factor in all of these situations is that LC elders and BB's do not accept any responsibility for their involvement in these things. Furthermore, what is saddening, is that many times these individuals end up blaming themselves for their problems. Back when the CRI published their "We Were Wrong" journal, something that they lauded the LC for is the "dedication" of its members. I think they said something like the LC is one of the most dedicated groups of Christians that they have seen. On the surface this sounds like something good, a positive attribute of the LC. From my point of view, this is actually quite a big problem. When such a high level of devotion/dedication is expected, that those who can't measure up are consequently put in a position where they feel like they are inferior. I know that some in this position will just end up feeling discouraged, however, this can easily be the beginning of a much worse mental decline. |
|
11-30-2014, 03:22 PM | #44 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Quote:
And I'm not talking ecumenicalism. I'm talking about receiving one another in the name of Jesus Christ. Either you do or you don't. Either you place burdens on others or you accept them as they are. Either you ignore your neighbor or you love them with the love of God, who sent His Son for us while we were yet sinners. I remember LC saints who would drive past one meeting to go to another that they felt was more "one" with "the ministry". And so forth. We can go on and on how we played with words in the LC, to have our cake and eat it too. The names that you register with the government doesn't make you more or less pleasing to God.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
||
11-30-2014, 04:50 PM | #45 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
|
11-30-2014, 04:59 PM | #46 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,223
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Sorry, but, based on my experience, I fail to see how churches are different than any other social group.
__________________
Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
11-30-2014, 05:33 PM | #47 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 600
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
Maybe those who break down in Marine boot camp had a predisposition to psychosis (i.e., an underlying chemical issue in their brains, that was already present). Or, perhaps they just succumbed to stress in a highly stressful environment. I'm not sure we can make too many assumptions about what that "means" for an individual.
__________________
And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
|
11-30-2014, 05:41 PM | #48 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,223
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
|
11-30-2014, 06:20 PM | #49 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 641
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami |
|
12-01-2014, 10:30 PM | #50 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,636
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
First of all, for those experiencing mental, emotional or psychological issues, there is really no help whatsoever. Perhaps the most help someone could expect to get is "fellowship" with an elder. In all the cases I've seen the "help" that brothers will try to provide is to encourage someone to attend more meetings or say something that totally marginalizes that person's problems. Another issue is that the LC takes a "cookie cutter" approach to practices. There is the strong belief that what works for one person works for everyone. This causes more problems that most in the LC realize. The idea that all college graduates should attend the FTTA regardless of individual situations or needs is a prime example of that. I think this type of mentality sets some up for failure or in some cases, mental breakdowns. |
|
12-02-2014, 01:43 AM | #51 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 600
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
We all know how reserved the culture in the Recovery can be. We also know how tight-lipped the leadership can be. How many such cases must it have taken before they would make such a public announcement? How many people have gone from the Full-Time Training to psychiatrists? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early in a state of mental exhaustion? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early due to physical symptoms which may have been brought on by prolonged/chronic stress? Very serious stuff, folks.
__________________
And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
|
12-02-2014, 08:55 AM | #52 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
|
01-21-2022, 07:08 PM | #53 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
In addition to running numerous business enterprises, Nee was evidently a large land-holder, as well. By his late 20s, Nee was one of the foremost Christian apologists in China, free to do what he wanted. He was a rock star, who could think, do, or say whatever he wanted. In the article covers interpenetration of the Communists and the Little Flock operatives, after WWII. The narrative is very different from what we heard. The Little Flock had true power - political, social, economic. Many government leaders were Little Flock members, functioning as moles. And vice-versa. Why do you think there was a lag between Communists taking over in 1949, and Nee's arrest in 1952, and then four years between his arrest and eventual trial? Because the two heavy-weights were sorting it out. Eventually in 1956 the communists attacked the Little Flock leadership and broke its power completely. But before 1956, the LF had a lot of secular power in China. It's a different reality than what we were fed. Watchman Nee and the Little Flock Movement in Maoist China, by Joseph Tse-Hei Lee. Church History; 2005;74(1)
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
|
10-16-2022, 11:40 AM | #54 | |||||
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Hello,
I stumbled on this article from https://www.thepathoftruth.com/false...gglesworth.htm. It’s addressing two people Nee and Wigglesworth (never heard of this guy), so some quotes might be confusing. Couple of interesting takes on Nee. I will quote couple of paragraphs here from the article. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
…………………………………… P.S Also, this book mentioned in this thread should have exposed Nee for who he truly was, but the people of the local church have hid it, and I have been told never to read this book. I found this post to be interesting and reminded me of something that happened in my own life. Quote:
I got to talk to one of these lieutenants once, and asked him “why do you treat these young men this way?”, and he answered, “the goal of these exercises is to completely break an individual to nothing, make him feel like he is lower than a everything that exist, psychologically, emotionally, and physically, so that after that portion is complete, I can mold out of them anything I wish!” That sounded as something I have heard from some FTTA trainees over the years. Unfortunately, the lieutenants of the local church are very good at breaking people to nothing, it’s the second part that they have zero clue about. By the way, I have never found any scriptural bases for these kind of trainings or to what they do to these young men and women in there. No wonder that some that make it through it, look, sound, act, speak, even have the same gestures as Witness Lee did. So much for pointing people to God, and following Jesus Christ as they claim to do! |
|||||
10-16-2022, 03:32 PM | #55 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Unregistered,
Great observations. I think I have mentioned a couple times on the forum that a frequent comment from many trainees, after graduating after two years in the FTT and coming back to their locality, was, "I don't know how to be". They really had been broken down. A schedule full of deadlines throughout the day, running them all over here and there, punishments for any infraction, whether a missed deadline, whether a hair on their bed, whether a wrinkle in their sheets, whether talking past curfew, whether wearing a piece of red clothing, etc.... they were punished with assignments to read the very ministry that was supposed to be nourishing to them, some of them reaching the end of their term with a large backlog of punishments. Some of them received letters in their cubbies indicating that their infraction meant that they had a divided heart or were not absolute for the Lord. Stories of leading brothers raiding sisters kitchens for things like coffee (IIRC), etc... And any failure in this environment is heightened to the extreme because they feel like they are a failure before God. Not loving God enough, not living up to His expectations, never good enough, ever. This is not a place where people's children go to get built up. Too many are as you describe - they leave the FTT with mental problems or health problems they did not have before. There is a known percentage of people in the training on antidepressants or medications of that nature....known because the doctor brothers and sisters prescribe them, rather than lobby to have changes made for the sake of the trainees instead. On the flipside, I know cell phones did not used to be allowed, and now they are. I also think they extended the allowed sleep time by 30 minutes due to so many reports of exhaustion. So no, they are not total monsters, but ...... their claim that this is the "best place for a young man in God's plan" or whatever is a complete lie. Trapped |
10-17-2022, 09:28 PM | #56 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Re: The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee
Quote:
No pun intended, I don’t believe that anyone with a sound mind would send their child to FTT, if they have any hope and faith in God. It’s only a person who has not only lost his way, but is willing to sacrifice their child on the altar of these spiritual exhibitionist like Lee and Nee, and the current crop of their contaminated fruit. Extravagant obsession with self righteousness, and untamed desire to redo or repeat the completed work of Christ, will lead to unequivocally dire tragedy, anguish and despair. These trainings are nothing more than a set of exorcises of self will, derived from communist erudition, and some aspects that were concocted by Ignatius of Loyola, in his spiritual exercises manifesto. In its essence, they are opposed to God or any spiritual perspicacity, meant to raise religious coldhearted brutes, who for the sake of their wild unattainable maxims, would be willing to destroy even themselves. Martyrdom is the ultimate triumph, human pedestal is an alternative conquest! We’ve seen both in the local church, nether of which brought any life or even a speck of veridical reality as was promised. Generations were and are being wrecked, without any or very little fighting back. People are petrified to stand up, forfeit everything if necessary, to gain the ultimate prize of freedom, liberty, which can only be received by trusting in what already has been accomplished for everyone! Do it yourself kits, are more attractive and more fulfilling on the outside, which is the only thing that’s offered by the local church! May God shine His light into this dark abyss, so that those that are truly seeking Him, will find redemption, but those that are fretful of the light will hightail like cowardly hyenas who prefer darkness to get their coveted prey! |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|