Two Year Training Testimonies

I have heard that after college, you are expected to go to a two-year training in Anaheim. You attend church classes all day, every day I believe.

Are there any testimonies on how this training went? Benefits? Consequences?

Do you feel it put you behind in life while everyone else was getting jobs after college?

What was the experience like?

Originally Posted by Curiosity

I have heard that after college, you are expected to go to a two-year training in Anaheim. You attend church classes all day, every day I believe.

Are there any testimonies on how this training went? Benefits? Consequences?

Do you feel it put you behind in life while everyone else was getting jobs after college?

What was the experience like?

Here are a couple links about rules and requirements:
http://ftta.org/current-trainees/new...nd-guidelines/

http://ftta.org/current-trainees/new...nd-guidelines/

http://ftta.org/ftta/wp-content/uplo...nAgreement.pdf

I never went but from what I heard from others, it was extremely hard/stressful in the beginning (first 6 months-1 year) and then went uphill from there. I have known a few people who dropped out, but no one really talks about that and they are often looked down on. Also most people become extremely involved in everything related to the "churchlife" after they graduate and often become even more conservative. I have lost friends who came out as totally different people (I was no longer "good" enough). Seems like a good experience (or so they say) for most, but all will admit that it was hard, and if you read the rules, you can understand why. They are completely ridiculous (my opinion). Hope that helps.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have lost friends who came out as totally different people (I was no longer "good" enough). Seems like a good experience (or so they say) for most, but all will admit that it was hard, and if you read the rules, you can understand why. They are completely ridiculous (my opinion). Hope that helps.

To Unregistered:

I assume you're a "Church kid". Thanks for your candid observations. The thing that sticks out to me the most is your comment "I was no longer 'good' enough". (As one who spent about 20 years in the LC movement I know exactly what you mean) After two years of "gospel service", one would think that a trainee would speak and conduct themselves in a manner that comports with the speaking and actions of the Lord Jesus, and even the early apostles.

Yes, the Gospel message does include the annunciation of an exclusive and narrow way, (cf: "no one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:16) yet we see that in the Gospels the Lord Jesus treated individuals with almost infinite grace and mercy. Take for example the woman at the well - while he did expose her sin, at the very same time he offered her eternal life (and while he was at it, dispelled some religious myths). My point here is that the acceptance and living out of the true Gospel will make us a person who expresses grace and mercy to others. I don't see this coming from the LSM Trainees (and I've known many). Instead, for the most part, these dear young ones are filled with the teachings and traditions of men (mostly from one man).

So yes, these kids are changed alright, but not for the better I'm sorry to say.

Wow this training is ridiculous.

You're basically expected to drop every aspect of your life, boyfriends, girlfriends, work, etc.

Somehow, I don't really know how that's even legal to expect people to give up everything for the church.

If my friend really goes into this, I know I'll never get her back. The brainwashing that occurs there has to be hard to reverse.

That's a lot to ask of one person to endure. I don't know that I believe that God asks that of us. I believe God just wants us to live righteous lives and to be lights for others to follow... not that we need to drop everything and drown in some Witness Lee preaching.

[zeek]

Looks like these happy shiny young college graduates are receiving rote indoctrination like I did when I went to Witness Lee's trainings 30 years ago.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The brainwashing that occurs there has to be hard to reverse.

For some perhaps. But for some lucky ones it all suddenly crashes down, like a house of cards. Maybe this will happen for your friend. I know it did for friends that stayed after I left. Eventually it all caved in on them ... like it did me. And they're my friends now.

But I do have to admit, for at least three yrs, deprogramming wasn't easy. Lee is a tar baby. It's hard to get off.

Praise God I'm free is all I gotta say ...

Trainings? Just avoid the whole local church ... and trainings won't be an issue.

[Freedom]

I managed to avoid going to the training. I did not experience much pressure to attend, but even if I did, I would not have caved in. I can say that in general, there is a lot of pressure for college graduates to attend, it seems like those who don't are looked down on and are a small minority.

When I was younger, I actually had the idea that I would be attending the training and that I needed to go. Gradually my mind changed about that over time.

There is a lot that I can say about it, but in order to be concise, I will just say a few things. The first problem I see with the training is that there is the implication that you can't be useful to the Lord or churches if you don't attend the training.

The primary thing that made me not want to attend the training was the realization that it bears no resemblance to how normal people live and interact in the real world. The training rules are a primary example of that. By the time someone graduates from college, they should now how to keep a schedule, dress for work and be a responsible individual. It's almost insulting that they give young people the idea that without attending the training they won't be able to function as a normal human being in life.

One rule that irks me in particular is the restrictions on contact with the opposite sex. That is completely abnormal and they really have no such right to impose those kind of rules. The reason that they can get away with it is because trainees have no problem agreeing to the rules without a single question or doubt.

When looking at the training from the outside, I think you would be hard pressed to find an example besides the training where people are willing to surrender so much of their freedom. Simply put, it's abnormal. Just thinking about it gets me upset. I'm so happy I saw past it all and decided not to attend.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

When looking at the training from the outside, I think you would be hard pressed to find an example besides the training where people are willing to surrender so much of their freedom. Simply put, it's abnormal. Just thinking about it gets me upset. I'm so happy I saw past it all and decided not to attend.

The reason for the excessive legalism was to train these future leaders that their spiritual life and service was nothing without LSM.

In the bi-annual trainings, all the parents and elders of these trainees were constantly reminded of the pitiful job they had done to date, and how much remediation work was needed to be accomplished by LSM / FTTA.

The Great Lakes Area eventually learned that the Trainers used their bully pulpit to poison the young people against the very leadership which had encouraged and financed their attendance in the FTTA. The trainees would return with suspicions directed at their parents, their elders, and the regional leaders, and had serious issues fitting into the church life and normal daily life outside of the FTTA.

[Cal]

The "training" model was something Nee invented and Lee perfected. It's an expression of their domineering natures in the context of backwards mainland China 70 years ago. It's an archaic, extremely flawed model, which produces short-term compliance and long-term stupidity.

The only reason it is still around is because to change it would be to admit something about Nee and Lee wasn't perfect and eternal.

Even the military and most sports coaches have abandoned the strict disciplinarian approach to leadership. There is a better way. Reasonable rules are fine and needed, but rules that exist just to show the trainees that they are being ruled, to break their wills, are abusive.

Every day the LRC becomes more of an anachronism. I feel sorry for the kids that grow up there. They receive a very warped view of life and God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The "training" model was something Nee invented and Lee perfected. It's an expression of their domineering natures in the context of backwards mainland China 70 years ago. It's an archaic, extremely flawed model, which produces short-term compliance and long-term stupidity.

I understand it was said at a aha moment, when two Leebots were talking :

"Witness Lee goes fishing with a straight hook, you have to want to get caught."

If you go to their trainings you have definitely been caught ... at your own peril.

[awareness]

What happened to the video of the training? I can't find it.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The primary thing that made me not want to attend the training was the realization that it bears no resemblance to how normal people live and interact in the real world. The training rules are a primary example of that. By the time someone graduates from college, they should now how to keep a schedule, dress for work and be a responsible individual. It's almost insulting that they give young people the idea that without attending the training they won't be able to function as a normal human being in life.

Very good observation. I would never have thought to put it this way. The real truth of the matter is that, despite their claim to be training these young people in "the proper human living", they end up producing a bunch of semi-robotic clones who cannot relate to the modern 21st century American adult. (I don't know so much about the other foreign Full-Time trainings, but I suspect they are much of the same) Dressing and conducting oneself in a professional manner is all well and good if you are selling a tangible product, but if the product is YOURSELF and supposedly the genuine and historic Gospel as found in the Bible, then people are quickly going to ascertain that you're just a well-dressed recruiter for some little-known religious organization based in Anaheim, California.

One rule that irks me in particular is the restrictions on contact with the opposite sex. That is completely abnormal and they really have no such right to impose those kind of rules. The reason that they can get away with it is because trainees have no problem agreeing to the rules without a single question or doubt.

This is mostly based upon the culture of early to mid 20th century China (Asia in general?). Again, if these young people were controlled enough to make it through a 4 year university without letting the attraction to the opposite sex make them so irresponsible as to not be able to graduate, then I can't see how they couldn't be trusted to make it another 2 years! It's nothing but blatant cult-like control over a very personal aspect of a young person's life.

I remember well when they attacked seminaries, stating that they would never have such institutions. Well, of course they don't! They have TRAININGS. A seminary by any other name is still....a seminary.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the bi-annual trainings, all the parents and elders of these trainees were constantly reminded of the pitiful job they had done to date, and how much remediation work was needed to be accomplished by LSM / FTTA.

Seems a lot as the direction Obama's administration is heading in. You don't suppose Barrack learned his craft from LSM do you? I see many a parallel. Publicly speaking positive words, lack of transparency, etc.
Back to the quote of Ohio's, total disregard of parental responsibility. Remediation work is usurping the role of the parent.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember well when they attacked seminaries, stating that they would never have such institutions. Well, of course they don't! They have TRAININGS. A seminary by any other name is still....a seminary.

It is definitely hypocritical. For the record, I don't have a problem with seminaries, and I think they serve a purpose.

One major problem with the training is that it is basically become something that you either attend, or you should expect to be ignored and looked down upon. In other words, the only way to have a future in the LC is to attend the training.

Those who grew up as "church kids" and didn't attend the training after college seem to be few far between. Since the training has been around since the 90's, those who would have attended when it first started are probably in their 50's now. Of the 30-50 age range, it seems like most have either attended the training or they are relatively new to the LC. I don't see very many who are of the age where they could have attended the training at some point but didn't.

When I was in college on interesting thing I noticed is that virtually all those who were involved in the college work were FTTA graduates. By that I mean, those who were participating in the work on campuses, doing the college conferences and trainings, etc. I always wondered about that, were those who didn't attend the training not good enough to serve with the college students or college work?

I'm sure there are many exceptions to what I have noticed, but I would be willing to bet that they wouldn't let someone who hasn't graduated from the training play any major role in the college work or any other kind of "work".

[KSA]

Are there any testimonies on how this training went? Benefits? Consequences?

The training is to indoctrinate you with LC teachings. I was there when I was a teenager. I enjoyed it, since it was a nicer alternative to staying with my parents who were divorcing then.

In retrospect, the training does not equip you with anything that can be useful in real life. Those who did not become coworkers had difficulties adapting to normal life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The "training" model was something Nee invented and Lee perfected. It's an expression of their domineering natures in the context of backwards mainland China 70 years ago. It's an archaic, extremely flawed model, which produces short-term compliance and long-term stupidity.

This quote is a bit harsh in tone, but useful medicine in that it lets us look at: 1) personality; 2) culture; and 3) effect. All worth considering.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Curiosity

I have heard that after college, you are expected to go to a two-year training in Anaheim. You attend church classes all day, every day I believe.

Are there any testimonies on how this training went? Benefits? Consequences?

Do you feel it put you behind in life while everyone else was getting jobs after college?

What was the experience like?

I did two years in FTTH, in Hamilton, New Zealand. Many parts of it I enjoyed thoroughly, but many parts of it scarred me deeply, hurting me deep within my core.

At the time, being the hardcore brother that I was, PSRP was my favourite activity ever so I was really in my element. I'd wave my fist around with gusto when singing and shout out lyrics mid-song etc, all fun. I was one of those brothers who 'exercised his spirit' like he was competing in the Olympics. But then other times I'd spend hours in prayer, weeping over various trials.

Some examples: In my first semester my security partner was *really* abusive (security guard duty), and when I finally went to the head brother about it, he basically said it was my fault and the Lord was teaching me not to be proud. I had told the leading brother that through all the abuse I was suffering from this abusive brother I always continued to pray for him, but he rebuked me and said that in those prayers, I felt in my heart that I was better than him. So I repented with tears and continued to take abuse from this brother, now knowing that I'm no better than he is and obviously deserve whatever ill treatment he gives me. He spat on my face and I just let it dry without wiping it away, because I wanted to be like Watchman Nee - "Let me love and not be respected".

Another time that same brother pulled a knife on another brother and I went to one of the teachers to tell on him, but he took me with him to go rebuke him and I had to stand there watching while he confiscated the knife - just so the abusive brother knew that it was me who narked. I locked my bedroom door at night for a week because I was so scared he would come beat me up. He was expelled, but only a month or so later.

Another time I felt really unloved because as a team coordinator everybody had demands and expectations on me but nobody showed me any kindness or respect. I was being taught that we were becoming God in life and nature and that God was agape love, but I didn't see the brothers as becoming agape love at all as I was just being bullied for not being good enough every day. Even the main head brother couldn't care less about me, and he always had this intimidating grumpy look on his face. It made it hard to accept what it was that he was teaching us, and made me think of 1 Cor. 13:2 "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing". By that implication, none of what I was being taught meant sh*t and I was wasting my life. Also, there was nothing to live for, because this was the most meaningful thing I ever found in my life so if it means nothing, nothing means anything. More hours spent weeping in prayer.

One time I learned in a class that enjoying anything other than Christ can lead our hearts away from him - literally anything that you enjoy is an idol. I prayed with tears that He would dry up all the enjoyment from my life and that I would never be able to take pleasure from anything other than Him ever again for the rest of my life, so that if I ever backslid, I would have no choice but to return to Him. Thank God He didn't answer that prayer! Just thinking back on it now I realise how f__ed up that prayer was, and the 'ministry' portion that led me to pray it.

As for job prospects? After I graduated I spent a few years on the unemployment benefit, unable to get work. I went to China to teach English because I couldn't get a job in New Zealand. Now that I'm back in NZ I'm starting my own business to make money because I still can't get a job, being in my 30s and having only waitering and English-teaching as work experience. Doing two years of NZTC can't take the full blame for that but it certainly didn't help. Its basically just a huge gap on my CV.

I am sorry you had to deal with that . The full time training is worst than boot camp . They break you down not build you up. I can not wait for the day they are before their knees before their god .

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Bradley

As for job prospects? After I graduated I spent a few years on the unemployment benefit, unable to get work. I went to China to teach English because I couldn't get a job in New Zealand. Now that I'm back in NZ I'm starting my own business to make money because I still can't get a job, being in my 30s and having only waitering and English-teaching as work experience. Doing two years of NZTC can't take the full blame for that but it certainly didn't help. Its basically just a huge gap on my CV.

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

I'm sure some have fared better than others. I can think of some I knew who did just fine afterwards without becoming a full timer. Some of the "church kids" I know that attended knew better than to "drop everything" when they attended the FTT.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

Are you implying that ending up as a full-timer isn't a success story?

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

Bradley,

Thanks for having the courage to share. It will help many who have likewise suffered.

My story: about 20 yr ago I left the LC, and because my consciousness had been dominated by the immersive "church life" I was adrift.

After about 5 mostly purposeless and frustrating years I got a revelation, that I was on earth to help others. Like many, I'd been misled by the false dichotomy of "sacred" vs "secular" realms. God is King of everything!

I purposed to help others, and my life took an immediate turn, and I never looked back. Every day is it's own reward.; every day is full of challenge, opportunity, meaning, and grace.

I started on the bottom and worked and worked. I loved every minute. I have been promoted 4 times & now make decent wages, but that never mattered. The Lord provides always.

I've been led by 2 principles: "What you do to the least of these my brothers, you do unto me", and "Whatever you do to others, God will do to you." That's it: simple but it's never failed to guide, to encourage & to strengthen.

The Lord bless your journey with peace, joy & love. I believe you have a great adventure waiting.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Are you implying that ending up as a full-timer isn't a success story?

K,

I wasn’t thinking of that when asking my question.

This site spends alot of time discussing the negative aspects of the Witness Lee churches - as it should, it is our duty to warn others. But there are true Christians in these Churches, so I was wondering if anyone could share success stories. We could also include Full Timers on that list that are working as servants of Christ and not the LSM.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

Sadly enough, what I also observed is that those who were the most enthusiastic about attending the training were usually the ones who fared the worst. The reason being is that either the training didn't meet their expectations, or in more extreme cases, their enthusiasm was used against them.

One example in particular comes to mind. A brother I knew my whole life was the model prospective trainee. He went through high school and college with every intention of going to the training, and all plans revolved around that. Once he got in the training, however, he was assigned to a team to serve in a locality the trainers very well knew he didn't want to be in. Actually, no one wanted to serve in that locality, because the elder there who was overseeing the trainees was known to be mentally unstable. The trainers in Anaheim very well knew this.

Needless to say, this brother was devastated and dropped out of the training. I was shocked to see something like that happen to someone who was so dead set on going to the FTT. It definitely was a factor influencing my eventual decision to not attend the FTT. After year or so, this brother was somehow coerced to come back and complete the training (serving in the same locality), under the guise of being made to think that he just needed more 'perfecting'.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

I dont believe that. You put the 2 year 'gap' on your resume and treat it like any other bible qualification. You also highlight the transferable skills gained at the training. Many young people have gaps nowadays from going travelling and exploring the world anyway.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I dont believe that. You put the 2 year 'gap' on your resume and treat it like any other bible qualification. You also highlight the transferable skills gained at the training. Many young people have gaps nowadays from going travelling and exploring the world anyway.

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

WOW!!! Are you serious? I would say I'm sorry but I can't help but to think you probably dodged a bullet....

It seems like they're in no position to turn people down. Do you know how often they do that?

Maybe if they sense you can think for yourself, you're obviously not going to be a good fit.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

K,

I wasn’t thinking of that when asking my question.

This site spends alot of time discussing the negative aspects of the Witness Lee churches - as it should, it is our duty to warn others. But there are true Christians in these Churches, so I was wondering if anyone could share success stories. We could also include Full Timers on that list that are working as servants of Christ and not the LSM.

Sorry, I couldn't help but take the bait

I truly believe there are true Christians in the LC. I guess I believe, even for the "success" stories, that it's really not a success if you're mislead in your faith with bad practices common to a group.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

I'd like to make a few comments about Titus Chu's "trainings," which he could never call a "training," because only W. Lee was supposedly qualified to "train," so he called them "labor." Look back, some of this talk is pretty childish. Anyways ...

TC's plan was very considerate of young people's career paths. His time frame was reduced to 10 month, but more importantly at least for college students, he preferred that students participate while in college, because it was far easier for them to return to college for their junior or senior year, than it would be to enter the work force.

Secondly, the focus of study was not Lee's materials, but the Bible. Lee's books could be used as reference, but he felt all the saints needed a foundation in scripture before reading ministry books. Personally I felt greatly benefited in the areas of Bible study and public speaking.

Yes, from these "labors" some began to serve full-time, and they were often selected rather than called by the Lord, but very few had difficulty reentering "civilian" life.

Here have been some of my observations..

The ones with the best job prospects seem to be the ones that trained in the healthcare industry (medicine, dentistry, nursing, pharmacy etc.) who worked for a year or two before attending the FTT and maintained a relationship with their employer during the FTT.

The few that get married soon after the FTT are for the most part "normal" (if you get my drift) and have done right for themselves by breaking the rules a bit while in the FTT.

Then theres the ones who were kind of oddballs to begin with and come out of the FTT even more peculiar and have no idea to to function in the real world. They end up serving full time which kind of makes them odder and then finding someone to marry gets even harder. By then they are approaching their 30's and end up in some semi-arranged marriage situation.. often a 30 something year old sister with a 20 something year old brother which I have nothing against if they genuinely love each other, its just a bit of a trend I've noticed.

I have particularly noticed that with sisters the desperation to get married is REAL! Lets be honest for us women our "market value" only decreases with age. By the time they are approaching 30 you can smell the desperation from a mile away which I can imagine is only more off putting to men.

Then there are the stories of a bunch of FTT sisters practically fighting over the same 1 or 2 brothers... usually the token white minority male.

But what can you expect when from the age of 11 you are constantly warned about the opposite sex at every single camp/conference/training. They even go so far as to word it like, "We are all brothers and sisters. You do not kiss/have sexual relationships with your brothers or sisters so why is it any different in the church life? It is only ok when you are older and have finished the training." ACTUALLY insinuating incest because....logic! (I actually heard this as a high schooler).

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LaLaLaLaLa

But what can you expect when from the age of 11 you are constantly warned about the opposite sex at every single camp/conference/training.

Going a little bit off topic...Having gone through the constant warnings in my LC upbringing, I certainly did not want my children going through it. Especially for ones who are obedient to the warnings you end up being dysfunctional in relating to the opposite sex as people. I didn't want my children subjected to those feelings.

Originally Posted by Terry

Going a little bit off topic...Having gone through the constant warnings in my LC upbringing, I certainly did not want my children going through it. Especially for ones who are obedient to the warnings you end up being dysfunctional in relating to the opposite sex as people. I didn't want my children subjected to those feelings.

Completely agree. Everything about the way the LC handles relationships is so unnatural and dysfunctional. And then the elders get all concerned about the ageing unmarried sisters...!?

It always amused me how people in so called degraded christianity seem to have no problem finding a partner and getting married. Having been exposed to more degraded christianity than your regular church kid I observed that many of them meet when they are in their teens or early 20's and for the most part develop completely healthy, respectful, loving relationships which lead to marriage. Meanwhile in the LC you get constantly bombarded with guilt/shaming tactics all through high school, college and the FTT and as a result are incapable of fostering a healthy relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

To imply as you are that 2 years is ruining someone's career prospects for life is ridiculous.

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

WOW!!! Are you serious? I would say I'm sorry but I can't help but to think you probably dodged a bullet....

It seems like they're in no position to turn people down. Do you know how often they do that?

Maybe if they sense you can think for yourself, you're obviously not going to be a good fit.

No the reason they gave was that I didn't have enough work experience to be able to get a good career at the drop of the hat in case the elders decided to stop supporting me financially. Basically, if I was to serve, I would have been dependent. If I had served for a decade or something, and then they said "okay go get a job", I would have been screwed. So they wouldn't let me serve for my own sake.

That motivated me to learn internet marketing, I taught myself web design and SEO with the motivation that one day I would be able to support myself financially but still have the whole day free to serve the church and the gospel. As it turns out I don't care about the 'church' anymore, hardly even think about the gospel much less preach it, and my online business is just beginning to make money.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

Thanks Unreg - about how many people were in your FTTA class? Of those, are there more that have left the faith? I've visited headquarters in Anaheim, its a pretty wild place... I would appreciate hearing more about your FTTA experience.

On a separate note, if you have any interest in hearing about my testimony and experience with Jesus, shoot me a message.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

To imply as you are that 2 years is ruining someone's career prospects for life is ridiculous.

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

There is some truth to what you're saying here... but I can also tell you've never run your own business or hired anyone before.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LaLaLaLaLa

Meanwhile in the LC you get constantly bombarded with guilt/shaming tactics all through high school, college and the FTT and as a result are incapable of fostering a healthy relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

Very true. I have quite a unique story how I get married to be saved for another time, but how I got there was a salvation by the Local church dysfunction of being single. If you're a single brother and you want to approach a single sister, you feel as if all eyes are on you. Who knows how much worse a single sister would feel being approached by a single brother? Guilt trip shaming is the result.
My experience with elders only intensifies the dysfunction. I open up to an elder expecting compassion and counseling, but instead I get "maybe you're meant to remain single". A possibility, but not a compassionate or encouraging word. Only supports the notion LC elders administrators of a system rather than shepherds of a flock.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

It is inexplicable because it does not have anything to do with a career path, and any potential employer that is smart isn't going to bring up the subject of religion or religious activities.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

That is a generalization.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

The LCM teaches a false dichotomy of "God's work" vs. having a career. Everyone has a basic responsibility to be able to provide for themselves and their family:
1 Tim 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

Unreg,

I also went agnostic for 2 or 3 yr post-LC. Focused on job, school, life. Learned to think again. Learned to be nobody. I was no longer 'special' thru association, part of 'God's best'. I was just another doofus out on the street.

Eventually I came back to God, and to the Jesus of the Bible, but on entirely different terms. No longer was I interested in being dominated by an all-too-human assembly. If I saw something, it was because I saw something, not because someone else told me that I saw something.

Been there, done that. As the hymn's chorus put it, "No, no, no no no - I'll never go back anymore. . . "

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Thanks Unreg - about how many people were in your FTTA class? Of those, are there more that have left the faith? I've visited headquarters in Anaheim, its a pretty wild place... I would appreciate hearing more about your FTTA experience.

On a separate note, if you have any interest in hearing about my testimony and experience with Jesus, shoot me a message.

I think there were around 100 in my graduating class. I am only aware of one other person that either graduated with me or within a year that left the faith.

Honestly I had a great time in the FTTA. I felt full of purpose and really enjoyed the environment and the people I was around. I was gung-ho and all-in. There were some hard times and personal sacrifices that I regret in hindsight. However at the time it really felt like God's plan for me and that I was "one with Him in His economy." It's really only in retrospect that I see the whole experience as whacky to understate the matter. So yes, I enjoyed the FTTA.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think there were around 100 in my graduating class. I am only aware of one other person that either graduated with me or within a year that left the faith.

Honestly I had a great time in the FTTA. I felt full of purpose and really enjoyed the environment and the people I was around. I was gung-ho and all-in. There were some hard times and personal sacrifices that I regret in hindsight. However at the time it really felt like God's plan for me and that I was "one with Him in His economy." It's really only in retrospect that I see the whole experience as whacky to understate the matter. So yes, I enjoyed the FTTA.

How do you go from being "one with Him and His economy" to seeing the experience as whacky? As an agnostic, what do you attribute your feelings of oneness to God's economy?

The short answer to your first question is that it was an intellectual journey that lasted about two years. During that time I learned about topics in psychology, biology, and skepticism in general which after some time caused me to turn a critical eye on my own faith. Eventually I left the faith behind.

Your second question is the easy one. I would just say that my feeling of oneness to God's economy are my own feelings. Perhaps they were profound and "spiritual" but its just an experience. I can still reproduce it today if I want. Or I could have a similar sensation meditating in a non-theistic way. Our brains are capable of producing these types of experiences. I don't see this at all incompatible with a materialistic, atheistic worldview.

[Truthseeker]

Lee always says that we can hear God speaking through the Church as a body of Christ. I guess so but not only in the local churches under the LSM control but among all the true and faithful Christians regardless of his or her own denominations. I can hear God's speaking very clearly through all of you that Full time training and its regulations are all ordained by the human being not divine ordinance.

I went to FTT after college and ended up leaving after 5 months due to illness.

I was sick in some way for almost half of my time at the FTT. but it got worse the longer I was there. Eventually my mum told me to come home and after talking with an elder I did.
Initially, I intended to go back once I was well enough. It took me almost 4 months to get fully well again, including an emergency visit to the hospital for a severe infection.

By the time I was well enough I decided not to go back and looked for a job instead.

When I got sick I learnt I was not the first person to leave because of sickness and even found out there is a brother who still has chronic fatigue syndrome years after he left the training.

[Weighingin]

Is this the right place to inquire about the experiences of those who have attended the Middle-age Training? So far, the ones I have spoken with describe it as a positive experience.

[UntoHim]

Sure, this is the right place!

I have heard it is somewhat less restrictive than the regular FTT. I only know about the one in Anaheim, but I think there are several across the USA and maybe some other countries?

Just as with all the FTT's, it seems they are heavily populated with Chinese/Taiwanese/Asians. A very sparse few Caucasian/Hispanic/Black Americans.
-

[BeardedFool]

Be very careful. The local church trainings are focused on control of the will: your will controlled by the church (ie. the leaders of the church). Their control is couched in religious terms and they manipulate your feelings to get this control, but ultimately it has nothing to do with your actual relationship with God. Your noble desire to grow closer to God and be useful to Him is warped and twisted by the local church to serve their ends and purposes. The tree is made known by its fruit, and the fruit of the local church is rotten.

[Drake]

-1

Wow, I didn't know that Bearded Fool.

You were in the training subjugated to the evil empire? Once your will is captive its very hard to break away...

How did you ever escape?

Be afraid... be very afraid...

Drake

[BeardedFool]

Drake, your sarcasm makes light of a very serious issue. There are only 2 possibilities that I see:
1. You don't know what you are talking about.
2. You are still drinking the cool-aid.

Yes, you should be very afraid, in all seriousness. And as to how I escaped, it was through a great deal of pain and suffering, broken relationships, and true damage.

Millstones and goats.

[Ohio]

Beloved brother Drake has a long history of dismissing every deprecating observation made about LSM and LC leadership. He has been with the LC's since the mid-70's, passing through every "storm," yet he refuses to admit anything short of perfection with Lee and the Blendeds. He constantly mocks those who speak up.

I constantly remind him of how LSM came to the Midwest and divided every LC, all in the name of "oneness," suing several LC's for their property, so he won't talk to me any more.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by BeardedFool

Drake, your sarcasm makes light of a very serious issue. There are only 2 possibilities that I see:
1. You don't know what you are talking about.
2. You are still drinking the cool-aid.

Yes, you should be very afraid, in all seriousness. And as to how I escaped, it was through a great deal of pain and suffering, broken relationships, and true damage.

Millstones and goats.

Bearded Fool,

I'LL add a 3rd to your list of possibilities. .... in fact, I recommend you put it at the top.

#1 You are embittered so you are making stuff up and given to exaggeration ... possessing a heart of revenge that justifies slandering other christians.

Admittedly, there are only a handful of posts from which to draw that conclusion so the sample size is small ... but I think we know what to expect from you going forward.

Welcome to the forum,,, should be interesting

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bearded Fool,

I'LL add a 3rd to your list of possibilities. .... in fact, I recommend you put it at the top.

#1 You are embittered so you are making stuff up and given to exaggeration ... possessing a heart of revenge that justifies slandering other christians.

Drake, have you ever asked yourself why so many former members would appear "embittered" about their experience in the LC's? What have they to gain by making things up? People leave churches all the time; they just move on. Why then do you accuse them of a "heart of revenge" for speaking up?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, have you ever asked yourself why so many former members would appear "embittered" about their experience in the LC's? What have they to gain by making things up? People leave churches all the time; they just move on. Why then do you accuse them of a "heart of revenge" for speaking up?

Or why folks like me who aren’t embittered post on this forum to warn about the LSM and their ministry churches...

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by BeardedFool

Be very careful. The local church trainings are focused on control of the will: your will controlled by the church (ie. the leaders of the church). Their control is couched in religious terms and they manipulate your feelings to get this control, but ultimately it has nothing to do with your actual relationship with God. Your noble desire to grow closer to God and be useful to Him is warped and twisted by the local church to serve their ends and purposes. The tree is made known by its fruit, and the fruit of the local church is rotten.

"ends and purposes" - such as? ... gospel outreach and bible distribution...that's the main thing that people do after the training..and for young people.. get married, get a job, buy a house etc.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"ends and purposes" - such as? ... gospel outreach and bible distribution...that's the main thing that people do after the training..and for young people.. get married, get a job, buy a house etc.

Just like young Mormon missionaries, who after 2 years of serving LDS Church "end and purposes", get to return home, get jobs and have families. Talk about fallen Christianity. . . . if you only knew!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Just like young Mormon missionaries, who after 2 years of serving LDS Church "end and purposes", get to return home, get jobs and have families. Talk about fallen Christianity. . . . if you only knew!

Or Baptist missionaries?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Or Baptist missionaries?

Does the Baptist church have the same rigid, hyper-centralised command-and-control structures as the LDS and the LSM? I do see similarities: all these groups have mandates to go forth & tell the great unwashed masses about the Bible and Jesus Christ. But in the case of the LDS and LSM, the Bible and Jesus, aka "the gospel message", are merely foils, introductory to the special revelation of God's special anointed prophet raised up in these last days, and the cloistered group that follows the teachings of said prophet without question.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

William Franklin Graham, Jr. (November 7, 1918 – February 21, 2018), better known as Billy Graham, was an American Evangelical Christian minister and evangelist. He was a member of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I don't recall Billy Graham ever requiring hearers to show up at his home church, and read his books. And because of this he's derided by LSM Blenders as "not building the church"! With the LSM, the gospel is merely the prelude to the real motive, the real "ends and purposes", which is building up the LSM-affiliated church, and kow-towing to ministry leadership. Jesus and the Bible are set aside as soon as they've served their purpose, which is getting feet through ministry turnstiles.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Does the Baptist church have the same rigid, hyper-centralised command-and-control structures as the LDS and the LSM? I do see similarities: all these groups have mandates to go forth & tell the great unwashed masses about the Bible and Jesus Christ. But in the case of the LDS and LSM, the Bible and Jesus, aka "the gospel message", are merely foils, introductory to the special revelation of God's special anointed prophet raised up in these last days, and the cloistered group that follows the teachings of said prophet without question.

To your point here -- many brothers over time became suspicious that the so-called "New Way" and the FTT in Taipei of the 1980's were more about Lee and LSM taking control of all the LC's than it was about the preaching of the Gospel.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Or Baptist missionaries?

There are scores of Baptist flavors, but I don't think any take the Mormon and LSM route of 2 year trainings where they ride bikes in white shirts and ties and knock on doors. The Local Church is quickly becoming a cult in that they insist on using the writings of WL to interpret the NT. Once the old guard like RK, DT, EM dies off the next generation of WL acolytes with no history or connection with the genuine church will lead the local church movement into worship of the person of WL. It's already happening in China.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by HERn

There are scores of Baptist flavors, but I don't think any take the Mormon and LSM route of 2 year trainings where they ride bikes in white shirts and ties and knock on doors. The Local Church is quickly becoming a cult in that they insist on using the writings of WL to interpret the NT. Once the old guard like RK, DT, EM dies off the next generation of WL acolytes with no history or connection with the genuine church will lead the local church movement into worship of the person of WL. It's already happening in China.

Of course Baptists don't go door-knocking (actually they can, I used to do it for a baptist church, they didn't do it themselves they hired us to do it I wasn't even a member) - these days they preach the gospel using puppetry, clowning, hip-gyrations in spandex and magic.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Of course Baptists don't go door-knocking (actually they can, I used to do it for a baptist church, they didn't do it themselves they hired us to do it I wasn't even a member) - these days they preach the gospel using puppetry, clowning, hip-gyrations in spandex and magic.

I bet you like them hip gyrations don't you? I heard RK confess several times that sometimes on the internet that a few clicks will get you somewhere you didn't expect. Actually, as a new believer I participated in Tuesday night visitation where we knocked on the doors of visitors who attended our Lords Day meeting.

I have to admit that I am astonished at Evangelical's claim that some Baptists don't do their own visitation but, instead, hire it out. I have been a member of the Baptist church all my life and I can ASSURE you that they do, indeed, do their own visitation both to follow up on visitors who came to one of their services and to minister to those who have not attended in a while or who are needing prayer/help. Rarely do you ever get to just "fade away" from a Baptist church--they come and visit to make sure all is well if they have not seen you for a while. Never once, in my entire long life, have I ever heard of any Baptist church hiring out their visitation! The LC may need to pay multiple "job-dropping full-timers" to get the job done but most Baptist churches have several dedicated and devout members who eagerly do visitation on Tuesday or Thursday nights. They will, indeed, "leave the 90 and 9" and go looking for that one lost sheep. People matter to them.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have to admit that I am astonished at Evangelical's claim that some Baptists don't do their own visitation but, instead, hire it out. I have been a member of the Baptist church all my life and I can ASSURE you that they do, indeed, do their own visitation both to follow up on visitors who came to one of their services and to minister to those who have not attended in a while or who are needing prayer/help. Rarely do you ever get to just "fade away" from a Baptist church--they come and visit to make sure all is well if they have not seen you for a while. Never once, in my entire long life, have I ever heard of any Baptist church hiring out their visitation! The LC may need to pay multiple "job-dropping full-timers" to get the job done but most Baptist churches have several dedicated and devout members who eagerly do visitation on Tuesday or Thursday nights. They will, indeed, "leave the 90 and 9" and go looking for that one lost sheep. People matter to them.

Evangelical loves hasty generalization just like his MOTA.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have to admit that I am astonished at Evangelical's claim that some Baptists don't do their own visitation but, instead, hire it out. I have been a member of the Baptist church all my life and I can ASSURE you that they do, indeed, do their own visitation both to follow up on visitors who came to one of their services and to minister to those who have not attended in a while or who are needing prayer/help. Rarely do you ever get to just "fade away" from a Baptist church--they come and visit to make sure all is well if they have not seen you for a while. Never once, in my entire long life, have I ever heard of any Baptist church hiring out their visitation! The LC may need to pay multiple "job-dropping full-timers" to get the job done but most Baptist churches have several dedicated and devout members who eagerly do visitation on Tuesday or Thursday nights. They will, indeed, "leave the 90 and 9" and go looking for that one lost sheep. People matter to them.

How did you find this forum and what prompted you to share (aside from the misguided thoughts of a poster).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have to admit that I am astonished at Evangelical's claim that some Baptists don't do their own visitation but, instead, hire it out. I have been a member of the Baptist church all my life and I can ASSURE you that they do, indeed, do their own visitation both to follow up on visitors who came to one of their services and to minister to those who have not attended in a while or who are needing prayer/help. Rarely do you ever get to just "fade away" from a Baptist church--they come and visit to make sure all is well if they have not seen you for a while. Never once, in my entire long life, have I ever heard of any Baptist church hiring out their visitation! The LC may need to pay multiple "job-dropping full-timers" to get the job done but most Baptist churches have several dedicated and devout members who eagerly do visitation on Tuesday or Thursday nights. They will, indeed, "leave the 90 and 9" and go looking for that one lost sheep. People matter to them.

Careful, if you tell people that your church does door knocking you will be compared to the Mormons and JW's.

If you read my post carefully I gave one of my experiences and did not generalize that to all baptist. It was a long time ago but a Friday if I recall, I was given leaflets to hand out and the details of the baptist church on them. We went two by two, in pairs, boy-girl, boy-girl, at the time what I thought was strange was that we were door knocking the streets surrounding the church, we did not venture too far. At the end everyone had to give an account of how many leaflets were given out.

The LC has many devout members too who go out as a family and door knock their surrounding streets. Full-timers are not really paid to door knock streets, they go to campuses and help run the student groups. They are not responsible for coming to your street and door knocking your neighbors because you are too lazy to do it.