David Yonggi Cho - Witness Lee x100?

[bearbear]

The pastor of the largest congregation in the world with 1 million members allegedly fell into the same type of sins as Witness Lee: he made decisions showing that he loved his sons more than the church and broke enough laws to possibly land him and his son in jail for 3 years. The allegations against him are startling similar to Witness Lee:

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/...vid-yonggi-cho

"Cho has three sons. The second and third sons are very productive and work in church-related ministries. His eldest son has been the prodigal. He has been married four times and has been involved in sexual scandals with national personalities. In addition, he has served prison time for investment scams and embezzlement. His scandalized life has been an embarrassment to his family and the church.

Twelve years ago, this son purposely defrauded the church in excess of $12 million in a stock-related scheme. Cho testified that he trusted his elders and son and didn’t check and read the thousands of pages of paperwork, which was prepared for him to sign. Because Cho relied upon the direction of his choice elders and son, he signed the papers. He never received any monies from the transaction."

Fortunately for Pastor Cho, he's still alive and his sin has been confronted so can still repent while he is alive. Witness Lee on the other hand was not as fortunate it seems.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The pastor of the largest congregation in the world with 1 million members allegedly fell into the same type of sins as Witness Lee: he made decisions showing that he loved his sons more than the church and broke enough laws to possibly land him and his son in jail for 3 years. The allegations against him are startling similar to Witness Lee:

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/...vid-yonggi-cho

"Cho has three sons. The second and third sons are very productive and work in church-related ministries. His eldest son has been the prodigal. He has been married four times and has been involved in sexual scandals with national personalities. In addition, he has served prison time for investment scams and embezzlement. His scandalized life has been an embarrassment to his family and the church.

Twelve years ago, this son purposely defrauded the church in excess of $12 million in a stock-related scheme. Cho testified that he trusted his elders and son and didn’t check and read the thousands of pages of paperwork, which was prepared for him to sign. Because Cho relied upon the direction of his choice elders and son, he signed the papers. He never received any monies from the transaction."

Fortunately for Pastor Cho, he's still alive and his sin has been confronted so can still repent while he is alive. Witness Lee on the other hand was not as fortunate it seems.

I hate to generalize but what is it about Asians that make them drawn to dynamic leaders?

[bearbear]

We had this discussion at a church planning retreat because our church has both english and chinese ministry and we realized we needed to reconcile many differences in culture and communication.

Here are some of the conclusions we reached with my own views thrown in:

Chinese and asians in general are culturally trained to obey first and ask questions later. We're a culture that honors, respects and tries not to challenge authority. So we're much more susceptible to hero worship and unquestioningly following leaders. Things tend to be more black and white. We like following commands and absolutes.

Westerners on the other hand need to have dialogue, discussion and back and forth before committing to things. The culture is not as leader oriented as asians though it can be.

For example, when someone doesn't participate or ask questions during a group discussion led by an authority figure, westerners take that to mean that this person is not contributing. However for asians, a person who is asking questions and challenging ideas is more likely to be viewed as a trouble maker and a usurper of authority.

[bearbear]

I think God was merciful to him for exposing his sin while he is alive so he could repent. He expressed great sorrow during his last sermon and said he was unworthy to enter the kingdom of God. That's the kind of thing you'd never hear that from Witness Lee's mouth so perhaps he is a bit more different.

Here's another article that's a bit more negative:

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/engli...al/611326.html

One of the former elders at the press conference, Ha Sang-ok, previously admitted to taking part in giving 1.5 billion won (US$1.4 million) while collecting the book “Madame Butterfly in Paris” from a female vocalist in France named Jeong who anonymously wrote the account about an affair with Cho.
“A sect leader might violate the commandments and do as he wishes, but a pastor cannot do that,” Ha said. “Over the past 14 years, I have met with Rev. Cho many times to try to persuade him to repent and return to being a great pastor, but the corruption has continued. That‘s why I had no choice but to disclose it to the outside world.”


Here's an article hinting at his possible remorse and repentance:
http://www.christiantoday.com/articl....12m/35994.htm

"God forbid, if God calls me back today, I will still be able to go to the Kingdom of God," he was quoted by the website as saying.

[Ohio]

This may say strange to some of you, but I'm not as troubled by corrupt church leaders who just steal money and have affairs, as I am with what Lee did (to John Ingalls and many others) when he attempted to destroy all those whose only fault was protecting God's people from his and his family's abuses.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not as troubled by corrupt church leaders who just steal money and have affairs, as I am with what Lee did (to John Ingalls and many others) when he attempted to destroy all those whose only fault was protecting God's people from his and his family's abuses.

When I see Witness Lee telling his followers, "What business is it of yours if I put an admittedly unspiritual person in charge of my business affairs?" it really doesn't matter so much to me that this person eventually got caught molesting the help. At the moment Witness Lee installed the admittedly unspiritual Philip Lee as manager of Living Stream Ministry, he showed his true colors. He showed what kingdom he was building.

And at the moment he had the saints building motor homes and had sisters posing next to these vehicles in advertisements, Lee clearly showed what he was doing. It is irrelevant that the whole thing collapsed, leaving the Local Church "investors" with nothing but a sour taste.

Irrespective of how these deals turned (and they decidedly turned bad), the fact that this so-called minister and shepherd set these deals up in the first place indicates that his standing was not as a servant of the flock. Witness Lee was in the wrong position. His "business decisions" clearly show that.

Suppose Philip Lee had been an effective business manager, and had kept his hands to himself? Suppose Timothy Lee had done a good job as Daystar's President, and overseen construction of profitable vehicles? I say it is largely irrelevant: Witness Lee had revealed himself for all to see. Don't say God didn't warn you.

That these business decisions were disastrous and Lee subsequently burned the messengers of the bad news rather than repenting is merely the corroboration of what in retrospect should have been self-evident to any discerning person all along.

(And I write as one who sat in the meetings, saying Amen, even as red flags were waving all around me. I willed myself to see what I wanted to see.)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This may say strange to some of you, but I'm not as troubled by corrupt church leaders who just steal money and have affairs, as I am with what Lee did (to John Ingalls and many others) when he attempted to destroy all those whose only fault was protecting God's people from his and his family's abuses.

Among other things Witness Lee had a mean streak a mile wide. Kangas more than appears to have one too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Among other things Witness Lee had a mean streak a mile wide. Kangas more than appears to have one too.

Looking back I find it amazing that Recovery leaders were able to convince us that their "mean streak" was actually "spiritual." All "effective" Recovery leaders used their bully nature to establish their own position in the program.

Ironically and supposedly it was a female British missionary named Margaret Barber who recovered this lost method of "perfecting" the saints. Then Nee taught Lee, and Lee taught others, like Kangas and Titus Chu. Too bad there is no scriptural basis for it.

It really is a worldly method of governing, as seen in many companies, but can be quite effective. Unfortunately, many Christian leaders forsake the Lord's commands, and decide that lording it over the saints is a small price to pay for increased productivity and loyalty, all the while keeping the troops informed as to who is their "commander-in-chief."

[bearbear]

In 1 Samuel 12 Nathan confronts David concerning his grievous sins. From Nathan's words, it's evident that although the Lord had not decided to kill David, he was ready to lay the smackdown on him. Among the judgments listed, the Lord said his newborn child would have to die, and his wives would be defiled by one closest to him. Imagine if in this state, David resisted Nathan, made false accusations against him and threw him out. It's likely God would have smited him immediately, considering the seriousness of the moment.

This is basically what Witness Lee did, except he wasn't struck down but he got away with all the fiascos he masterminded pretty cleanly. This is epitomized by the shrine LSM's built for him after his passing. Despite the honor and praise he received among those faithful to him, we can only imagine what Witness Lee is going through right now on the other side and it probably isn't something to be jealous of.

As we discussed in a different thread, God seems to restrain himself from smiting folks down in New Covenant times. This goes along with Matthew 12:20

"a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory;"

I think God is reserving the majority of his judgment during the church age until the second coming.

With this in mind, I am at peace Witness Lee is getting what he deserved in eternity (or the thousand years for those that lean towards this view). My greatest fear is that I would end up like him and I wouldn't want to be in Lee's shoes on judgment day for sure. I feel like the one positive thing about his record is that it gives us a negative example of what not to do so we can all learn from it.

That said, it's unfortunate so many had to suffer even several decades after all the worst scandals went down. However I think whatever damage Lee did, God is able to heal. I think we just have to trust that he is able. God gives us grace when we're willing to receive his help through faith by believing that he can do it.