Taped conversation between Sal Benoit and Witness Lee circa 1977/8

[bearbear]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

I started a youtube channel called "Witness Lee's Hidden History"

My first video is Sal Benoit and Witness Lee's phone conversation where Lee admits to the money laundering scheme he set up to protect himself from losses in case DayStar failed. Here is the link to the video:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6800733/wlsl/

I feel this conversation deserves a place on youtube for others to find and search for.

Thanks to http://www.laymansfellowship.com/ for the graphic and transcript.

If any of you have ideas for videos please PM me.

[bearbear]

Here's the description of the video:

This is a telephone conversation in 1978 between Sal Benoit, an elder in the Church in Boston and Witness Lee. Witness Lee admits to setting up a money laundering scheme to ensure that he made money even when DayStar failed. DayStar, a company which produced RVs, eventually went bankrupt due to the Iranian oil crisis during the 70s and many Christians in the Local Churches lost their life savings all the while Witness Lee's family was still able to profit.

During an elder's meeting, John Smith of San Diego confronted Witness Lee about this matter. Lee expressed no remorse and remarked that "the saints had lost their virginity".

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf

More about Local Church History:
http://www.lordsrecovery.us/HistoryofHiding.pdf

Ezekiel 34:2-6
What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks. Shouldn't shepherds feed their sheep? You drink the milk, wear the wool, and butcher the best animals, but you let your flocks starve. You have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound up the injured. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with harshness and cruelty. So my sheep have been scattered without a shepherd, and they are easy prey for any wild animal. They have wandered through all the mountains and all the hills, across the face of the earth, yet no one has gone to search for them.

[InChristAlone]

Thank you, brother BearBear.

[awareness]

This recording of Sal and Lee cracks me up. It reveals how Witness Lee acted down at he nuts and bolts level of his work, and his slimy ways with money. This reveals the con side of Lee. He's way too calculating not to be conning Sal ... and in the end, all the saints. The MOTA? More like just another con artist of the age ; using Bible sleight of mind tricks to fleece the sheep. How else was Lee's assets in the millions.

[bearbear]

Witness Lee laughs around 2:43 and the 9 minute mark. He shows no remorse but belittles Sal and acts like he's doing him a huge favor in letting him in on what happened.

These do not sound like the actions of a born again Christian instead it sounds more like the actions of a tare in the Christian church and someone who knows the way of righteousness but willingly turns their back on God's commandments (2 Peter 2:21).

http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite....cteristics.pdf (Point E)

1. Cults: Cults cross biblical boundaries of behavior, especially in immorality and finances.

They twist the Scripture to validate their impurity and lack of financial integrity. False teachers can be detected by their covetousness and immorality (2 Pet. 2:3-18).

By covetousness they will exploit...having eyes full of adultery…heart trained in covetous practices… They allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness. (2 Pet. 2:3-18)

[bearbear]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6800733/wlsl/

I lived couple doors from Lee.There were no millions of laundered money. He lived in a small apartment until we built him a nice (not richy)
duplex which he shared with his son's family. There was no private jet, no fleet of exotic cars. Matter of fact I don't think he owned a car.
Someone would pick him up in that person's car and take him to the meetings.

Sal lent Lee's ministry $100,000 and Lee repaid $100,000. Even I, as a young person, donated $25 to Daystar and I was paid back $25. Money laundering? You brothers are presenting a false narrative. Having been a close associate of this ministry for over 30 years, I know of no one who lost their life saving on Daystar.

Where did you get this information? The Bible says you know them by their fruit. His ministry is responsible for raising up thousands of churches world wide. Check out any one of them to witness the comparatively higher standard of character and love for Jesus Christ among the members.

Btw listen again to the tape. Notice Sal giggle as he hangs up.Who is being disengenuous?
AC.
Anaheim

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by AC

I lived couple doors from Lee.There were no millions of laundered money. He lived in a small apartment until we built him a nice (not richy) duplex which he shared with his son's family. There was no private jet, no fleet of exotic cars. Matter of fact I don't think he owned a car. Someone would pick him up in that person's car and take him to the meetings.

Sal lent Lee's ministry $100,000 and Lee repaid $100,000. Even I, as a young person, donated $25 to Daystar and I was paid back $25. Money laundering? You brothers are presenting a false narrative. Having been a close associate of this ministry for over 30 years, I know of no one who lost their life saving on Daystar.

Where did you get this information? The Bible says you know them by their fruit. His ministry is responsible for raising up thousands of churches world wide. Check out any one of them to witness the comparatively higher standard of character and love for Jesus Christ among the members.

Btw listen again to the tape. Notice Sal giggle as he hangs up. Who is being disengenuous?
AC.
Anaheim

AC,

I was never a fan of either Sal Benoit or Max Rapoport. Both seemed to love the power and the perks of their position. Both used the young people for selfish gains, and resulted in many getting badly hurt.

Your assessment of Lee's Daystar, however, is not a complete picture. Not all were paid back. In fact, Max R. rose to prominence going church to church persuading the saints not to ask for their Daystar money back, and to consider it an "offering" to the Lord, albeit not tax deductible.

How dare Lee use his credentials and ministry platform to "extort" money from the saints. Didn't Nee warn Lee never to mix business with the church? Lee also did many illegal financial dealings during Daystar, and as a result, brothers who were Daystar officers warned Lee, and then subsequently resigned when Lee continued. Lee felt that he was above the law.

Daystar is a serious black mark on Lee's legacy in more ways than one.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by AC

I lived couple doors from Lee.There were no millions of laundered money. He lived in a small apartment until we built him a nice (not richy)
duplex which he shared with his son's family. There was no private jet, no fleet of exotic cars. Matter of fact I don't think he owned a car.
Someone would pick him up in that person's car and take him to the meetings.

I don't know that anyone has ever implied that Lee had the intention of making himself wealthy. That might have been said about his sons, and there is evidence that Lee used money from his ministry to support his family. The following excerpt is taken from Philip Lin's book Sacrifice and Sail On. This is from Lee's will, in which he clearly states that up until 1994, money from his ministry was used to support his children, all of whom were adults who should have been supporting themselves.

The purpose of such establishment is not for building up an enterprise for myself or my children to secure any gain. In order to protect the copyright from confusion, I decided that the Gospel Bookroom and the Living Stream Ministry should pay me a royalty. Any excess that I received would be offered to the Lord for His use. Later, the royalty I received became more than before. In addition to offering to the Lord, I used the rest to support those of you children who are in need. At the beginning of 1994, while I was resting in the hospital, I felt that although what I received from my royalty payment was a result of my writing, the source of such writing is the word of the Lord. I vowed to the Lord that after I am taken away by the Lord, beginning from the year after that, I will offer all the royalty to the Lord.

Lin, Philip (2014-07-02). Sacrifice and Sail On: My View of Witness Lee, A Bond Slave of Jesus Christ (p. 277). Sail On Publishers. Kindle Edition.

Originally Posted by AC

Sal lent Lee's ministry $100,000 and Lee repaid $100,000. Even I, as a young person, donated $25 to Daystar and I was paid back $25. Money laundering? You brothers are presenting a false narrative. Having been a close associate of this ministry for over 30 years, I know of no one who lost their life saving on Daystar.

Like Ohio mentioned, many were pressured to "forgive" Lee for the loss of their investments. Regardless of who was paid back and who wasn't, what business did Lee have in asking a church to invest $100k in his business? That is just a bad idea to begin with. Furthermore, it seems he preyed upon the saints support of his ministry and their willingness to give. He could reasonably expect there would be support for investments if he made that kind of request. I have no respect him taking advantage of everyone in that way. If he wanted to start a business, that's not a problem, I don't take issue with that. He just should have just found normal investors or taken out loans like everyone does.

Originally Posted by AC

Where did you get this information? The Bible says you know them by their fruit. His ministry is responsible for raising up thousands of churches world wide. Check out any one of them to witness the comparatively higher standard of character and love for Jesus Christ among the members.

You have to be kidding right? Those in the LC have a comparatively higher standard of character? To what, other Christians? This is what happens when you drink too much kool-aid. First of all, the numerous character lapses of LC members have been mostly hidden from view. Just one example of such a character lapse is when W Lee spoke about how he was God's oracle and even said "Lee has to be famous".

The real "fruit" of the LC is a long trail of destruction behind them. Lots of collateral damage. I can't tell you how many I've seen who dropped out because someone decided to be a little bit too "legalistic" with them, or people who gave so much time to the LC only to be ignored when they encountered problems in life. The picture isn't pretty, but nobody in the LC talks about that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by AC

I lived couple doors from Lee.There were no millions of laundered money. He lived in a small apartment until we built him a nice (not richy)
duplex which he shared with his son's family. There was no private jet, no fleet of exotic cars. Matter of fact I don't think he owned a car.
Someone would pick him up in that person's car and take him to the meetings.

Sal lent Lee's ministry $100,000 and Lee repaid $100,000. Even I, as a young person, donated $25 to Daystar and I was paid back $25. Money laundering? You brothers are presenting a false narrative. Having been a close associate of this ministry for over 30 years, I know of no one who lost their life saving on Daystar.

Where did you get this information? The Bible says you know them by their fruit. His ministry is responsible for raising up thousands of churches world wide. Check out any one of them to witness the comparatively higher standard of character and love for Jesus Christ among the members.

Btw listen again to the tape. Notice Sal giggle as he hangs up.Who is being disengenuous?
AC.
Anaheim

Yer a funny guy bro AC. One of the members out here was an accountant for Daystar. He knows the truth. But you can't handle the truth, as evidenced by your necessity to dismiss Sal.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by AC

I lived couple doors from Lee.There were no millions of laundered money. He lived in a small apartment until we built him a nice (not richy)
duplex which he shared with his son's family. There was no private jet, no fleet of exotic cars. Matter of fact I don't think he owned a car.
Someone would pick him up in that person's car and take him to the meetings.

Sal lent Lee's ministry $100,000 and Lee repaid $100,000. Even I, as a young person, donated $25 to Daystar and I was paid back $25. Money laundering? You brothers are presenting a false narrative. Having been a close associate of this ministry for over 30 years, I know of no one who lost their life saving on Daystar.

Where did you get this information? The Bible says you know them by their fruit. His ministry is responsible for raising up thousands of churches world wide. Check out any one of them to witness the comparatively higher standard of character and love for Jesus Christ among the members.

Btw listen again to the tape. Notice Sal giggle as he hangs up.Who is being disengenuous?
AC.
Anaheim

As far as Witness Lee's living lifestyle, I don't discount your words. However whose land and whose money was used to build the duplex? As for labor, we know in the local churches labor for ministry building projects it's expected to be free of charge. Yet land and building materials are not free of charge.

About Daystar, I know several brothers (one of them being my father) who invested less than $500 and were reimbursed. What is the testimony of those who invested substantially more? One brother I know of passed away from cancer in 2013, so he's not around to testify.
There may have been ones who did lose their life savings and that may be the one of the factors why they're not meeting in the local churches anymore.

Talk about character? Interesting when LSM published their Submission and Authority (est 1990), Nee's word on Character of the Lord's Worker was conveniently omitted. Ironically among the local churches whenever something negative occurs regarding a brother, the phrase "cover the brother(s)" is invoked. As a result, only the positive aspect of a brother is known. 1 Timothy 5:20 is never considered an option while in good standing with LSM. Thus a brother's character (or lack of) is never scrutinized.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by AC

Where did you get this information? The Bible says you know them by their fruit. His ministry is responsible for raising up thousands of churches world wide. Check out any one of them to witness the comparatively higher standard of character and love for Jesus Christ among the members.

We have had more than a few discussions about Witness Lee's "fruit," specifically his two sons Timothy and Philip, both of which were immoral profligates. During the heyday of the 1980's "new way," it was demanded by Lee that all the churches and all the workers be one with and submit to his "Office" manager Philip.

This was the underlying reason for the so-called "storms" of the late 80's in Anaheim, yet Witness Lee refused to admit this, and instead conjured up some global conspiracy and rebellion to overthrow his ministry. Lee lied to cover up the truth, and to protect his kids. Lee thought nothing of smearing the reputations of John Ingalls and others like him whose only "crime" was to speak their conscience and protect the saints.

To me, that was far more disingenuous than anything Sal Benoit ever did.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by bearbear

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6800733/wlsl/

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6800733/wlsl/

I don't think this particular statement came from this conversation. But Lee did use the "this is none of your business, this is my private business" card on Sal a number of times in this conversation.

For those of you who have never listed to this taped conversation between Sal Benoit (Elder in Boston) and Witness Lee (circa late 1977 early 1978) you're in for a real treat!

*** Note: There is a 30-40 second silent gap right at the beginning while Witness Lee is coming to the phone

-

[Lisbon]

I am curious as to who is AC. I invested $1000. In Daystar and all I got back was a receipt signed by WL which I still have as a momento. The receipt stated that I had given the money to Stream publishers which I had hardly heard of.

I have written RK with no response asking if there weren't any of the BBs bothered a little in their conscience over charging one and half million dollars to the saints to hear them preach especially after all the bitter words about the hirelings in Christianity.

Lisbon

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I have written RK with no response asking if there weren't any of the BBs bothered a little in their conscience over charging one and half million dollars to the saints to hear them preach especially after all the bitter words about the hirelings in Christianity.

Lisbon

Good for you!

We need more members of the LC's to call those hypocrites to task. We have read literally hundreds of testimonies identifying them as mere hirelings.

AC is or was a member of the church in Anaheim, and has posted a couple times.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6800733/wlsl/

I don't think this particular statement came from this conversation. But Lee did use the "this is none of your business, this is my private business" card on Sal a number of times in this conversation.

For those of you who have never listed to this taped conversation between Sal Benoit (Elder in Boston) and Witness Lee (circa late 1977 early 1978) you're in for a real treat!

*** Note: There is a 30-40 second silent gap right at the beginning while Witness Lee is coming to the phone

-

Witness told Sal that "LSM is my personal business." So who inherited it when Witness passed? Do we know? And who owns it now, and who owns Witness Lee's intellectual property rights now? Somebody owns it, and not the Blended Brothers et al. Who?

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Witness told Sal that "LSM is my personal business."

When Witness Lee wanted your money, it was for God's eternal purpose, or God's move on the earth. When you wanted your investment returned, or an accounting of its whereabouts, suddenly it was his personal business.

To me, the only way to make sense of this is that in his eyes, he was God's Deputy Authority, and in his oriental cultural mindset God's Deputy was the acting God on earth. Whatever he wanted to do or take or say was what God wanted. So there was no discrepancy, if the entire LC was essentially in his pocket, material wealth and all. In the LC, the acting God is God.

It is not coincidental, therefore, that in mainland China, they began calling on his name, "Lord Changshou!! Lord Changshou!!". It was entirely consistent with the cultural imperatives and understandings of his position. Anything less would be inconsistent.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I am curious as to who is AC. I invested $1000. In Daystar and all I got back was a receipt signed by WL which I still have as a momento. The receipt stated that I had given the money to Stream publishers which I had hardly heard of.

I have written RK with no response asking if there weren't any of the BBs bothered a little in their conscience over charging one and half million dollars to the saints to hear them preach especially after all the bitter words about the hirelings in Christianity.

Lisbon

Curious how does a Daystar investment constitute a donation to The Stream Publishers?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

When Witness Lee wanted your money, it was for God's eternal purpose, or God's move on the earth. When you wanted your investment returned, or an accounting of its whereabouts, suddenly it was his personal business.

Yes, my thought's exactly on Living Stream Ministry. On one hand it is a non-profit organization and on another hand it is run as a family business.
It's been said when Phillip Lee was treasurer for Daystar, there were two sets of books the unofficial (accurate) and the official (inaccurate). The offfcial books is what was reported to IRS. Who is to say the same practice wasn't used in respect to Living Stream Ministry?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by AC

I lived couple doors from Lee.There were no millions of laundered money. He lived in a small apartment until we built him a nice (not richy)
duplex which he shared with his son's family. There was no private jet, no fleet of exotic cars. Matter of fact I don't think he owned a car.
Someone would pick him up in that person's car and take him to the meetings.

Sal lent Lee's ministry $100,000 and Lee repaid $100,000. Even I, as a young person, donated $25 to Daystar and I was paid back $25. Money laundering? You brothers are presenting a false narrative. Having been a close associate of this ministry for over 30 years, I know of no one who lost their life saving on Daystar.
AC.
Anaheim

I know of at least one in Anaheim who lost their life savings on Daystar. As to what was said about Lee, I don't dispute any of it. By numerous testimonies, Witness Lee did live very modestly. Can the same be said of his children?
I do believe Witness Lee was a millionaire who lived very modestly. If he wanted any of LSM money to be directed to his children, who was going to tell him no? The blendeds were and still are loyal to the end. There will never be any admission of malfeasance whether committed by Witness Lee or LSM officers.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

I started a youtube channel called "Witness Lee's Hidden History"

My first video is Sal Benoit and Witness Lee's phone conversation where Lee admits to the money laundering scheme he set up to protect himself from losses in case DayStar failed. Here is the link to the video:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6800733/wlsl/

I feel this conversation deserves a place on youtube for others to find and search for.

Thanks to http://www.laymansfellowship.com/ for the graphic and transcript.

If any of you have ideas for videos please PM me.

An audio and transcript is above along with a diagram.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Nell

An audio and transcript is above along with a diagram.

I don't personally know anyone impacted by Daystar, but this conversation doesn't sound like a leader, never mind a Christian leader, or MOTA! Huge red flag.

As the leader of an organization and its finances, I would never speak as Lee did in this clip. If I did, I would hope that I would be held to the highest scrutiny and asked to step down from my position.


Lee - "None of your business"

Lee - "No responsibility to answer anyone about this"

Lee - "I must say a word to you, this is too much, too much"

Lee - "The Ministry is my personal ministry" (NOT how ministry works, NOT how non-profits work!)

Sal - "Brother Lee it's not that simple, I just can't see why you evading, because it gives me the sense of something being dark."

Lee - "You have overstepping, you have overstepped your limit, you see? You have no right to ask me about the Living Stream Account. No that is not your (uh) standing."

This is unreal, must listen to entire clip.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Lee - "No responsibility to answer anyone about this"

Though Witness Lee may be dead, this is an attitude that has permeated generation after generation of responsible ones (deacons, elders, coworkers, etc). No responsibility to answer anyone on any issue. Because of that attitude, "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Terry

Though Witness Lee may be dead, this is an attitude that has permeated generation after generation of responsible ones (deacons, elders, coworkers, etc). No responsibility to answer anyone on any issue. Because of that attitude, "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

Amen Terry, he's as good as a gentile taxman to us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I don't personally know anyone impacted by Daystar, but this conversation doesn't sound like a leader, never mind a Christian leader, or MOTA! Huge red flag.

As the leader of an organization and its finances, I would never speak as Lee did in this clip. If I did, I would hope that I would be held to the highest scrutiny and asked to step down from my position.


Lee - "None of your business"

Lee - "No responsibility to answer anyone about this"

Lee - "I must say a word to you, this is too much, too much"

Lee - "The Ministry is my personal ministry" (NOT how ministry works, NOT how non-profits work!)

Sal - "Brother Lee it's not that simple, I just can't see why you evading, because it gives me the sense of something being dark."

Lee - "You have overstepping, you have overstepped your limit, you see? You have no right to ask me about the Living Stream Account. No that is not your (uh) standing."

This is unreal, must listen to entire clip.

Looking back, one of the most striking features of the Nee/Lee programme is the discrepancy between what is assiduously taught, and what is actually practiced by leadership and underlings.

I read a book "Elder's Training" by Witness Lee and he kept going over and over how everything was "for the body" and every decision had to be made with the good of the body in view.

But if anyone tried to point out to Lee (or his underlings) what damage was being done to others by his decisions, they'd would clamp down: "None of your business" or "my personal affairs".

Both Daystar and the installation of Philip Lee as LSM office manager come to mind. In each case, what was taught was blatantly disregarded in personal practice. There are apparently clearly delineated Local Church expectations for everyone, and then there's the Untouchable at the top, who can ignore everything that he's "training" his disciples to live like.

It's hard to imagine how the discrepancy could be any more glaring. And there's probably a cultural element here as well, as the Dong family did the same thing in Brasil. When family or personal activities were raised, which stumbled the rank-and-file, the answer was, "I have no heart to discuss this", and any further questioning was treated as attack or rebellion.

How is this not noticeable by the rank-and-file members? It is so obvious to those outside the system.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Looking back, one of the most striking features of the Nee/Lee programme is the discrepancy between what is assiduously taught, and what is actually practiced by leadership and underlings.

I read a book "Elder's Training" by Witness Lee and he kept going over and over how everything was "for the body" and every decision had to be made with the good of the body in view.

But if anyone tried to point out to Lee (or his underlings) what damage was being done to others by his decisions, they'd would clamp down: "None of your business" or "my personal affairs".

Both Daystar and the installation of Philip Lee as LSM office manager come to mind. In each case, what was taught was blatantly disregarded in personal practice. There are apparently clearly delineated Local Church expectations for everyone, and then there's the Untouchable at the top, who can ignore everything that he's "training" his disciples to live like.

It's hard to believe that someone as seasoned as dear brother Drake could be so naive as to the effects this would have upon the general LC population. Lee taught us for decades that he was different, he was better, he alone was upright regarding the high standards for ministers of the New Covenant. We believed him and unreservedly bought into his program.

Lee taught us that all Christianity had failed, had become degraded, had become hopeless and helplessly divided. They were satanic, demonic, and Christless. He derided them continuously, from the top to the bottom. He used their failures to highlight the dramatic contrast with the "Recovery," the Lord's "testimony," the unique N.T. churchlife on the "proper ground" of oneness.

We also believed his word games. Christianity had those horrible "pastors," but we had "co-workers and full-timers." They "went to church," but we "went to meetings." They had the "low" gospel, but we had "God's Economy." They had those evil controlling "denominations," but we had the the "high peak ministry of oneness." They were merely "Christians," but we were the "saints" of God! Life was so good! The differences were endless. There was no end to the contrasts and criticisms which Lee had for the greater body of Christ.

Then, after every storm, "leaks" would occur. Rumors and whispers were heard. Brother Lee would then assure us it was all "fake news" from ambitious and rebellious lepers. For shame, for shame. Can't they just bear the cross? Can't they just "leave like gentlemen?" Nothing here folks, just move along! Life in the enchanted, emerald city of "Ozaheim" is all good. See all'ya'all at the next training. Hallelujah for Christ and the Church!

Then the internet "Toto" pulled back the curtain for all to see.

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything. the daystar money was used on mansions and other luxuries in taiwan. the money was invested in indoor tennis racket company his son owned. overseas christian stewards was the fake unregistered corp lee, chang and another crook used to funnel money out of san francisco to taiwan. my father was the treasurer in denver. he saw cash handed to the elders. my brother was in charge of literature in spokane. he read all the stuff no one was supposed to see. he committed suicide.

bill lawson, john so are phonies. they sat down when i told them to stop lying in boston about the tape and sal. God will be their judge.

[UntoHim]

I'm going to let this post stand as is for the time being, however I would appreciate it if there are people out their who could confirm the most serious claims in this post. If there is no confirmation whatsoever forthcoming in a timely manner, the most serious claims will be edited.
UntoHim
Forum ADMIN
-
Here is the transcript of that infamous phone call between Sal Benoit and Witness Lee circa fall of 1978
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf
-

Originally Posted by Unregistered

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything....

Hi,
I know you are not a young man now, just based on that post. I don’t know you personally, but just want say a couple things:

I know it’s probably been very difficult to come up here and write these things if it’s all true as you claim. You know, carrying things like these for decades is a hard process, and exposing them is even harder. When you know the truth, but you live a lie is demoralizing. I feel extremely bad for your brother, must be difficult for you to deal with it also, and I’m not sure if your pops are still alive to see the suffering. I pray that God gives you strength not to take the same route, but expose this system for what it is, especially if you have the facts. There are people here and all over, who need help from men who know this system from inside, to step up and speak up. I pray for you, and may God give you strength and wisdom to speak out. It’s better to have peace with the Almighty, that to keep silence for the sake of peace with crooks.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm going to let this post stand as is for the time being, however I would appreciate it if there are people out their who could confirm the most serious claims in this post.

Does it make more sense to let the post stand as-is but simply have a response such as yours immediately following stating that the claims need to be confirmed or backed up? If you edit it, then people who read it after the timeframe you have in mind will not have the chance to corroborate or not. Maybe someone in a year will come across the thread and be able to confirm.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything. the daystar money was used on mansions and other luxuries in taiwan. the money was invested in indoor tennis racket company his son owned. overseas christian stewards was the fake unregistered corp lee, chang and another crook used to funnel money out of san francisco to taiwan. my father was the treasurer in denver. he saw cash handed to the elders. my brother was in charge of literature in spokane. he read all the stuff no one was supposed to see. he committed suicide.

bill lawson, john so are phonies. they sat down when i told them to stop lying in boston about the tape and sal. God will be their judge.

None of this sounds fabricated. Bits and pieces of corroborating evidence have been posted by other witnesses over the years on various internet venues.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

None of this sounds fabricated. Bits and pieces of corroborating evidence have been posted by other witnesses over the years on various internet venues.

All of this has been there in fragments for anyone who bothered to look. Don Rutledge, an eyewitness and intimate of the inner circle, said that Daystar was for Witness Lee's son Timothy. It wasn't a burden of the Lord to the prophet but rather the request of a wealth-seeking family member.

Regarding Watchman Nee, when he resumed public ministry after WL managed to restore him, he called for a practice of "handing over" of possessions to his ministry's aegis. But did he himself hand over? No, in fact he was a businessman. And notice who he was in business with: his brother. Family. It was a guanxi network.

How much of the handing over went to training centres, full-timers, gospel tracts, and how much right into the Nee family business? We do know that he got in trouble with the church leadership for his personal business dealings with his brother. Another piece of evidence: we also know that when the communists took over WN and his inner cadre moved 'ownership' of possessions to 63 church members, to hide the fact that they were wealthy property owners. Where did all that property come from? From his business, or from the "handing over"?

Nobody knows, because nobody talks in the LC. But all the pieces are there, plain to see.

Everyone who knows, also knows that if and when the smoke ever cleared, after the communist persecutions, all those 63 loyal property-receivers would then have to hand it back over to WN. It was his own personal business, just like with WL and Daystar, according to the tape of the Sal Benoit phone call.

Then there's the Dong family in Brasil... the pattern is unmistakable. The church is a vehicle to pad the family nest. Anyone who notices gets booted, and the rest try very, very hard not to notice.

[Matt Anderson]

I had to read through this thread a couple of times after reading how some of the more serious claims about this taped conversation had not been established/corroborated.

First of all, the transcript and the diagram were both done by me.

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf

The diagram was generated solely based on the content of the taped conversation. I listened to the conversation closely, transcribed it and analyzed it using my understanding of corporate law and fraud under US law. My knowledge on these topics is not advanced, but I know the essentials.

Based on my analysis, I put together the diagram so that those listening to (or reading) the conversation could map the impact of what was being said.

As for corroboration, I have personally met with two brothers who were present at the time of this call. One of them was in the room with Sal when the call to Lee happened. The other was in the next room and participated in some discussion after the call.

So, I know by the mouth of two witnesses that the call happened and that the substance of the call matches the recording.

So, my question is this to "whom it may concern". What serious claim has been made that has not been established?

Thanks,
Matt

[UntoHim]

Matt,
Here is the post of concern (#27 by Unregistered Guest)

Originally Posted by Unregistered

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything. the daystar money was used on mansions and other luxuries in taiwan. the money was invested in indoor tennis racket company his son owned. overseas christian stewards was the fake unregistered corp lee, chang and another crook used to funnel money out of san francisco to taiwan. my father was the treasurer in denver. he saw cash handed to the elders. my brother was in charge of literature in spokane. he read all the stuff no one was supposed to see. he committed suicide.

bill lawson, john so are phonies. they sat down when i told them to stop lying in boston about the tape and sal. God will be their judge.

I then posted this:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm going to let this post stand as is for the time being, however I would appreciate it if there are people out their who could confirm the most serious claims in this post. If there is no confirmation whatsoever forthcoming in a timely manner, the most serious claims will be edited.
UntoHim
Forum ADMIN

In my view, "the most serious claims" would be Philip Lee sleeping with an elders wife, and also that this poster's brother committed suicide after reading "all the stuff no one was supposed to see". If this was coming from an established, credible forum member I would not be as concerned, however, it is coming from a Unregistered Guest who, thus far, has not provided any further collaboration. I have asked anyone who has collaborating information to post it here on this thread. I will leave my interpretation of "in a timely manner" off the board for now.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Matt,
Here is the post of concern (#27 by Unregistered Guest) -

In my view, "the most serious claims" would be Philip Lee sleeping with an elders wife, and also that this poster's brother committed suicide after reading "all the stuff no one was supposed to see".
-

I could see how the facts of the first claim (elder’s wife) would get altered slightly, passed on by word of mouth, but multiple witnesses have corroborated the immorality of the Office Manager with the offices of LSM.

This second claim might not be publicly known. Perhaps the stated facts were true (brother read “stuff,” and later took his life) but the correlation weak.

[Matt Anderson]

UntoHim,

Thanks for the clarifications. I am all up to speed now! Matt

[UntoHim]

At one point the actual taped conversation was up on YouTube. At another point it was removed, but then put back up on Vimeo, and now I see it has been taken down again. Does anyone out there still have the taped audio of this conversation between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit?
-

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In my view, "the most serious claims" would be Philip Lee sleeping with an elders wife, ...-

IDK if PL actually did that or not. But what I do know, is that Timothy Lee for sure was having an affair with a leading brothers wife in Anaheim for many years. The husband eventually found out.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

IDK if PL actually did that or not. But what I do know, is that Timothy Lee for sure was having an affair with a leading brothers wife in Anaheim for many years. The husband eventually found out.

Is this referring to the same series of events referenced in John Ingalls account, “Speaking the Truth in Love,” or is this another?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is this referring to the same series of events referenced in John Ingalls account, “Speaking the Truth in Love,” or is this another?

I´m not sure which events you are referring to specifically. Weren´t all the main problems JI was trying to deal with about PL?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is this referring to the same series of events referenced in John Ingalls account, “Speaking the Truth in Love,” or is this another?

It’s about money. Loaning funds between non-profit organizations and for-profits, which is an SEC violation. Sal loaned Lee the money from the church in Boston (a non-profit). Lee paid it back, but that wasn’t the issue. Lee was a de facto representative of a for-profit company. This left Sal hanging as an unwitting part of a fraudulent scheme.

This may have been alluded to in STTIL, not sure.

Nell

[UntoHim]

The events surrounding this phone call between Lee and Benoit took place a full decade before the events and concerns addressed by John Ingalls in Speaking the Truth in Love. To be sure, there were crossover issues, such as the abuses, excesses, and financial shenanigans and malfeasance of Witness Lee and his sons, Timothy and Philip. I don't believe that Timothy was mentioned in StTiL. I could be wrong about this.

Of course we know now that "the most important decision in my life" that Sal Benoit was referring to in this call was to unhitch his wagon from Lee and Company, and join league with that notorious, despicable and deposed rebel Max Rapaport (who only a few months earlier was considered Lee's righthand man and heir to the throne of the Lord's Recovery) We also know that Benoit had already made his decision, and so had many other members of the church in Boston. And thus began the first major "rebellion" in the Local Church of Witness Lee in America.

Unbeknownst to us foolish and gullible Americans, these kind of uprisings and "rebellions" were old hat to the old Chinese gentleman Lee. By this time, Lee could dispatch of even the most respected and prominent LC members with one arm tied behind his back, and without even breaking a sweat. History would repeat itself about 10 years later, and although Lee ended up in the winner's circle again, this time the victory came at the price of losing hundreds upon hundreds (thousands?) of LC members. Even from his grave there in Grace Gardens, Lee seems to have the power to enforce and reinforce his position as movement leader, albeit the last 25 years through the "Blended Brothers", and their silly, unbiblical edicts such as "The One Publication". May God have mercy.
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[Ohio]

True. We constantly heard about these “10-year storms” which regularly swept thru the Recovery. There was even a “storm” in Taipei which forced Lee and Sons to come to the US. None of these so-called “storms” was ever a rebellion, but a reaction to corruption at the top by faithful men of God.

I would never trust a single historical statement coming out of LSM. Everything is revisionist and hagiography. If they told me the sun was shining outside, I would need independent corroboration.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

At one point the actual taped conversation was up on YouTube. At another point it was removed, but then put back up on Vimeo, and now I see it has been taken down again. Does anyone out there still have the taped audio of this conversation between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit?
-

I have the same question. Does anyone have a link to the recorded conversation?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I had to read through this thread a couple of times after reading how some of the more serious claims about this taped conversation had not been established/corroborated.

First of all, the transcript and the diagram were both done by me.

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf

The diagram was generated solely based on the content of the taped conversation. I listened to the conversation closely, transcribed it and analyzed it using my understanding of corporate law and fraud under US law. My knowledge on these topics is not advanced, but I know the essentials.

Based on my analysis, I put together the diagram so that those listening to (or reading) the conversation could map the impact of what was being said.

As for corroboration, I have personally met with two brothers who were present at the time of this call. One of them was in the room with Sal when the call to Lee happened. The other was in the next room and participated in some discussion after the call.

So, I know by the mouth of two witnesses that the call happened and that the substance of the call matches the recording.

So, my question is this to "whom it may concern". What serious claim has been made that has not been established?

Thanks,
Matt

Still looking for the audio.

Nell

[UntoHim]

I have the audio again, (thanks to Matt) Anyone interested can PM me for a copy.
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