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02-02-2013, 11:35 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 713
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The Building and a Bride in the Bible
There has been much discussion concerning Witness Lee’s worth as a teacher. Igzy had shared on The Ministry Becomes the Lampstand thread, post #80,
Quote:
www.ourneedtoexamineourselves.com/BuildingandBrideintheBible.pdf The Building and a Bride in the Bible At the beginning of the Bible and through it to the end, the major line of God’s thought is made clear – that He desires a dwelling place with man and to have the man He created as His loving counterpart. This line of thought begins early in Scripture with Adam and Eve, as she was built by God from a rib taken from Adam’s side, and presented to him as his wife; and this thought is found in Old Testament types of Noah’s ark, the tabernacle, and the temple. It is found in the gospels with Jesus being the Tabernacle of God and also the Bridegroom of the Bride; and it continues in Ephesians with Christ and the church as a mutual dwelling place of God and man, with the church brought into being through Him to correspond to Him in life and love. This line of thought is finalized in Revelation with the New Jerusalem prepared as a Bride adorned for her Husband. (Genesis 2:21-22, John 1:14; 3;29 Ephesians 2:21-22; 5:31-32, Revelation 21:2-3) Seeking the Place Abraham and David were Old Testament saints who cared for God’s habitation. Abraham, in fact, sought more than a house; he sought a city. “By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Hebrews 11:8-10, KJV) Abraham and others who sought a dwelling place “died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth….Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.” (Hebrews 11:13-16, KJV) David was a man who sought God and also His dwelling place. When God wanted to remove Saul as king of Israel after 40 years, he said to him, “But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart....” (1 Samuel 13:14, KJV) In Acts Paul said, “And when God had removed Saul, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, „I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.‟” (Acts 13:22, KJV) When David was made king, he right away wanted to take care of what was on God’s heart - to return the ark of testimony to God’s tabernacle and move the tabernacle to a suitable location. And he made a vow, saying, “Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed; I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob….Arise O Lord into thy resting place; thou and the ark of thy strength...” (Ps. 132:2-8, 11, 13-14) Many Psalms of David were about God’s house, His dwelling place. He declared, “surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever;” and “one thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after, to dwell in the house of the Lord….to behold the beauty of the Lord and inquire in His temple.” (Ps. 34:8; 27:4) As believers, we should be seeking Christ and experiencing Him; and our experience will give us the desire to be in God’s house. David had a heart for this, saying, “O taste and see that the Lord is good” and “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever” (Ps. 34:8; Ps. 23:5). Even though David had a great fall, his repentance was received by God, who did find him to be a man after His heart. In that repentance (Ps. 51), David even mentions that which is on God’s heart, His house. His son, Solomon, would take up the task to enlarge God’s dwelling place from the tabernacle to a temple The house of God must be on our hearts also. In the New Testament we have the grace, love, and fellowship of the three in one God for our portion and participation in the building up of the house of the Lord “in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” (Eph. 2:19-22, KJV) Seeking a Counterpart The dwelling place in the Bible is also related to the counterpart God seeks. This is brought to our attention in both the Old and New Testaments, as the building and the bride progress in a relationship with God toward consummation in a marriage to the Lamb of God in Revelation. Prophets spoke of God as being a Husband to a wife, “I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; and…I was a Husband unto them” (Jer. 31:32); and “Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you” (Jer. 3:14); and “I will betroth thee unto me in lovingkindness, and in mercies” (Hosea 2:19). The Song of Songs portrays the love relationship God desires with man. The seeker of God says, “He brought me to the banqueting house and His banner over me was love”; “My beloved is mine and I am his”. And the Lord’s response is “Behold, thou art fair my love”; “Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb”; “thou art beautiful, O my love…comely as Jerusalem”. In the gospels John the Baptist said: “He that has the Bride is the Bridegroom”. And, Jesus asked, “Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the Bridegroom is with them?” In the New Testament, Christ and the church are shown as husband and wife, Paul writing, “I have espoused you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”; and “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church” (2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:25, 27, 31-32). The church as the enlargement of Christ, is His counterpart and dwelling place. The New Jerusalem is the Bride The building is further enlarged in “the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” The New Jerusalem is the Bride, and also God’s eternal dwelling place. The Marriage Supper In conclusion to the line of the building and a bride in the Bible, there is a wedding and the wife of the Lamb has made herself ready! And, there is a great supper for those invited. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. Then he said to me, “Write: Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!” (Rev. 19:6-8, KJV). The word in John’s gospel that “He who has the Bride is the Bridegroom” is fulfilled here in Revelation, as God gains both a dwelling place and a counterpart; a building and a bride in what has been His quest throughout Scripture (John 3:29; Rev. 21:2-3, 22:17). Lee like David There has been discussion concerning Witness Lee’s worth as a teacher, and one testified to receiving help from his ministry concerning God’s desire for a dwelling place with man. His ministry is full of the truth of this teaching on God’s dwelling place because his ministry is full of the truth of God’s word and is according to His heart. The subject of my writing today was derived from his teaching, which is much more fully covered by him in his book, The Vision of God‟s Building and his Romans life-study on The Divine Romance. These are not books of straw that should be burned. (He has such a book.) His writings are plentiful, rich, and good for God’s building. Witness Lee, like David, had a heart for God and His building. He, from the beginning, continuously exhorted congregations and readers to experience Christ and to build in the church life with gold, silver, and precious stones the building of God, or their work, he warned, would be burned (1 Cor. 3:12-17). He spoke also of the fine linen of the Bride being the righteousnesses of the saints that adorned her. He worked tirelessly on the building of God and on preparing a bride for Christ. If anyone was to tell of all the righteous acts that he did since the day he became a believer, we would have a more fair and balanced approach in dealing with him publicly about our concerns. Like David also, brother Lee did err. We don’t want to see David’s blots on the record; or Abraham’s; or the children of Israel’s, whose twelve tribes are referred to with honor in the book of Revelation. But the word says of those “children”, “Behold, I see no iniquity in Israel;” and of Abraham, he is our father; and of David, that God “found him to be a man after His own heart.” I sympathize with the frailty of fallen man. I have erred myself and have blots. To point out the failings of Witness Lee and list them in the manner often done on this forum, and wipe out genuine contribution of his to the Lord’s work to build His church, is not properly representing him. He misaimed and misdirected the churches; he mistreated and misrepresented brothers. But we should not misaim ourselves and dismiss altogether his six decades of work of faith and labor of love in bearing heavy responsibility and burdens daily in the churches. He is responsible for his mistakes, and he himself has said, “I have made mistakes, even big mistakes” (Eph. L. S., p. 273). Shall we list them? I have already done so in the link below which I call Mistakes to Contemplate. http://www.hidinghistoryinthelordsre...ontemplate.pdf I don’t list certain mistakes referred to on the forum that were from pre-1974 days in which he showed the propensity to do damage. It wasn’t yet affecting the U.S., until he made the move forward in 1974. His position in the background was fine, even if he might have made some mistakes in that earlier going. His fellowship with elders and helping direct churches and giving conferences might have been as it should be in his capacity and function in the Body. How are we to judge that it was not? His ministry and gift was for the churches. His coming forward later, however, and increasingly upward, was not fine. Paul was involved intimately with the churches when with them, and he wrote letters full of love and intimate concern for them; and he gave direction and instruction to them. He had the capacity and the function to do so. But he never came to the foreground; he positioned himself and his ministry in the background to be for the churches. The churches did not have to be for him and his ministry. Brother Lee changed his position when he came forward in 1974. It is not that brother Lee did not care for God’s building. He did care for what was on God’s heart. But, like David, he had discrepancies in his good testimony that he cared for God’s heart only. There is no anointing in me to speak to any pre-1974 problems. In 1970 thru 1973 - my first 4 years in the church life, there was a moving of the Spirit among us that had been going on increasingly since 1962. In January 1974, Lee and Max stormed to the forefront and the changes that took place outwardly changed the spirit of the move inwardly. The move of the Lord was stopped! I witnessed this and so did Don Rutledge, more intensely, as a leader. Many others testify to this, and brother Lee even pointed to this time as being the beginning of a decline, giving his different reasons for it. See Don and Benson in http://www.ourneedtoexamineourselves...entintheLC.pdf for a closer look. Steve Isitt February 3, 2013 Cagayan de Oro, the Philippines |
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02-03-2013, 08:06 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Brother Steve,
If Witness Lee's ministry, (which borrowed so heavily from the ministry of the Plymouth Brethren, without appropriate acknowledgement and credit), was really so wonderful and godly and spiritual and full of "Christ", then we would have to expect it would have produced a great deal of spiritual fruit; for Christ said "He who abides in Me bears much fruit." (John 15:5) And what are "Spiritual fruits"? Paul tells us in his letter to the Galatians: Galatians 5:22-23 "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." And what is the ultimate results of such an abundance of spiritual fruit? John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” Steve, Brother, where is the love? If Witness Lee was (earlier on or ever) such a spiritual giant "raised up by the Lord", then when did we this kind of love from him and his ministry? We're told that such a move of the Lord ought to set the whole city - even the whole world to talking and taking notice! (see also Romans 1:8). But what happened to you, Steve? Were you shown love, gentleness, kindness, goodness, peace and patience? Were Christians in "denominations" outside of the Local Church ever shown these things? Were any who stood in Lee's way ever shown such things? Were any who were "quarantined" shown such things? No. In fact, many were stumbled because of Lee; and the testimonies of those who were stumbled are all here for you to read. Serious damage was done to hearts, minds, psyches, and yes - spirits, because of Lee and his ministry. You know this. What did Christ say about those who cause others to stumble? Mark 9:42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea." Don't be wowed by Lee's vocabulary or Brethren education. You know what became of the Exclusive Brethren, and you can read the testimonies of those damaged and stumbled by that movement too; despite their "high peak truths". That's why we are to judge the tree by it's fruit, and not by the loveliness of it's bark and leaves. Consider what Christ said to those who caused little ones who believe in Him to be stumbled - it was no small matter to Him. It doesn't sound like such a one will even be "saved as though through fire", does it? "It is terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31 Your brother In Christ, Ray |
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02-04-2013, 11:58 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Quote:
The problem here is not that you defend Lee. The problem is you make it sound like you agree with most or all of Lee's teachings, but take exception to some of his actions. I diverge with you here. Many of Lee's bad actions can be directly traced to his bad teachings. Some of these include:
These are just a few. Just because Lee shared some good things, even some great things does not mean everything he shared was good. I think you need to make it clear what you believe about this. The abuse you experienced is directly related to some of Lee's core beliefs. So you can't have it both ways. You either need to reject the bad beliefs, or admit you deserved the treatment you got. But there is a fundamental discrepancy in your worldview that just doesn't add up. |
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02-04-2013, 06:50 PM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
I realize I might sound like I'm all over the map here. I seem to be against Lee. Then I defend a teaching of his. Then Steve segues from my defense to more defense of his own, and I get on Steve for being too much.
Come on, Igzy! Where do you stand? Where I stand is at trying to find balance between two extremes, both of which I think lead to cognitive dissonance, which steals peace. One extreme seeks to dismiss Lee almost totally. This view leads to the dissonance from being unable to rationalize the rejection of ideas and things which genuinely were a blessing. This is could be called the Dump the Baby with the Bathwater extreme. The other extreme wants to hang on to the idea that Lee was intended to be a great leader of a new movement which would revolutionize the Church. The view leads to the dissonance from trying to rationalize all Lee's failings, and also from continuing to accept those teachings of his which should be dropped, because of one's reverence to him. This could be called the Adore the Dirty Baby extreme. The middle ground is this. Lee had some amazing insights, and he had some awful misses. At time he soared. Other times he belly flopped. In short, he was, like everyone else who ever lived except Jesus, unworthy of the kind of devotion the LC afforded him. He is proof positive no one should ever be considered THE minister of this or any other age. |
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02-04-2013, 07:48 PM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Good evening Brother Igzy,
I understand, I think, what you're saying... and secularly speaking, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. If Lee weren't a Christian leader, but was instead a CEO of a large multi-natonal conglomerate who had, on the one hand: 1) Made some poor business decisions in order to benefit his own family (nepotism). 2) Swindled some investors out of their investments, in order to cover the losses of his own company. 3) Maligned his competition in the market place, in order to gain more market share. 4) Black-balled employees who dissented from his decisions. 5) Increased his autonomous authority and greatly decreased his own accountability to his shareholders; becoming a defacto tyrant. But who, on the other hand also: 6) Implemented radical new ideas that increased the wealth of the company. 7) Invested in R&D to develop new products to push his company to the forefront of it's market. 8) Gained market-share to greatly increase the profitability of his corporation. 9) Secured the loyalty of his employees to such an extent that he was able to reduce and even eliminate wages, increase work hours, and yet increase the workload of his employees. 10) Gained the hearts of his own employees to such an extent that when he died, no successor could be chosen; rather, only his previously handed down decisions and minutes from his meetings can be repeated and reiterated, for fear of losing the principles that made his company so strong. ...Such a CEO, were he uplifted to "sainthood" by some, and demonized by others, might indeed be someone we could cautiously learn from. Someone with whom we maybe could take the "balanced approach" you suggest. But Lee was no CEO. Lee was a man who claimed to speak for God as his Oracle of this Age - and that being the case, we must use BIBLICAL, not secular principles, to judge how we ought to weigh his work. And how are we to judge "Oracles"? Jeremiah 23:28-40 "The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the Lord. “Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock? Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who steal My words from each other. Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the Lord, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the Lord. “Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’ Therefore behold, I will surely forget you and cast you away from My presence, along with the city which I gave you and your fathers.I will put an everlasting reproach on you and an everlasting humiliation which will not be forgotten.” The Lord was very clear, in the latter days False Prophets would come. In fact, every book of the New Testament (except one) speaks of False Prophets, and how we are to deal with them (as well as how the Lord deals with them). You have likened, perhaps unintentionally, Lee to a "Baby" in your argument - either a "baby being thrown out with bathwater", or a "filthy baby". But babies are innocent. If they are dirty, it is because they haven't been properly cared for or watched. Lee was not innocent. Lee was not under the care of any others; he claimed authority for himself, and that has very serious repercussions before our Lord. James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." Lee didn't claim to be a "Teacher" of the Word of God, but "THE" Teacher of the Word - and without his footnotes (private interpretations), he taught that one could not properly grow in faith or understanding. How seriously (strictly) will he be judged for that? Further, what you acknowledge as being "genuinely Lee's" were parts of his teachings (interpretations) of the Word. But Jesus Christ our Lord never taught that full understanding of the Written Word was required for spiritual growth or salvation. On the contrary, Christ said that study of the Scriptures (apart from acceptance of Christ as He is - our LORD) was worthless: John 5:39-44 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. "I do not accept praise from men, but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?" Faith saves, not knowledge; and the kind of faith Christ told us he sought was "child-like" faith and repentance. Matthew 18:3 "Then he said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven." So what is child-like faith, to the Israelite and a Father? Children in the Old Testament are commanded to "Honor their Father (and their mother)"; they know their place, they trust completely in their parents to care for them and meet their needs. They are content in all things with their parents provision, regardless of it's material worth. They love their parents with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength. If Christ wanted us to know and understand His every Word (rather than simply trust and obey), then why did He say to His disciples: John 16:12 "“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." And if Christ wanted us to sift through the teachings of false teachers, to gleen what might have been "good' (right) about what they taught, then why did He say to us in His Word: Titus 1:10-11 "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers.... Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake." Igzy, Christ didn't treat false teachers and false teachings with kid gloves. Over and over again the Word of God stresses that false teachers are damned by God, and that we must beware of them. Steve, you have likened Witness Lee to David. There are many, many differences between these two men, and I won't go into an exposition on those differences save to say this: When David sinned before the Lord (with Bathsheba), and was confronted by God's prophet (Nathan), he repented before the Lord. Further, although David prayed on his face before God for mercy for his newborn son, God would not answer that prayer. God told David he was forgiven, but that the sword would never depart from his house. When David's son died, David got up, and worshipped his God - the God who gives, and who takes away. David praised God for His Holiness, and His Righteousness. When Lee sinned, he covered it up. When he was caught, he destroyed the reputations of those who outted him. Lee did not repent, he did damage control, by going on the offensive. Lee did whatever it took to protect his reputation, his standing amongst "his churches" and maintain his religious empire. Witness Lee denies the Righteousness of God, and teaches instead that "the greatest sin before the Lord is not to enjoy Him." That is nothing more than a damnable lie, and you won't find it anywhere in the Bible. If David behaved the way Lee did, (if he accused and 'quarantined' Nathan, if he went after Nathan's supporters by propagating and publishing lies to cover up his crime, if he refused to acknowledge his sin and guilt) do you REALLY think God would STILL have said "David is a man after My own heart"? Brother, there is NO WAY. ...I find it most telling indeed that the Bible says that God disciplines those whom He loves (Proverbs 3:12, Hebrews 12:6), and yet Lee seemingly "got away with it all". He lived a very long life, died with his "empire" intact, and was interred in a monumental cemetary before his weeping followers; upheld as the "perfect God-man" by the LSM loyal. That alone speaks volumes, does it not? |
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02-04-2013, 07:51 PM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 713
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Re: Lee like David cont.
I cut out parts of this section below before posting the paper at the top. I would like to share more of my thoughts on the subject here,
Lee like David, cont. Like David also, brother Lee did err. I am not happy to see David’s blots on the record; or Abraham’s; or the children of Israel, whose names are written with honor on the 12 gates of the of the New Jerusalem in Revelation. But the word says of those “children”, “Behold, I see no iniquity in Israel;” and of Abraham, he is our father; and of David, that God “found him to be a man after His own heart.” I sympathize with the frailty of fallen man. I have erred myself and have blots. To point out the failings of Witness Lee and list them in the manner often done on this forum, and wipe out all he has contributed to the Lord’s work to build His church and prepare a Bride, is not to properly represent the person. He misaimed and misdirected the churches; he misrepresented and mistreated brothers. But we should not misaim ourselves and dismiss altogether his six decades of work of faith and labor of love in bearing heavy responsibility and burdens daily in the churches. He is responsible for his mistakes, and he himself has said, “I have made mistakes, even big mistakes” (Eph. L. S., p. 273). Shall we list them. I have already done so in the link below which I call Mistakes to Contemplate. http://www.hidinghistoryinthelordsre...ontemplate.pdf I don’t list certain mistakes referred to on the forum that were from pre-USA days in which he showed the propensity to do damage, which certainly did come to fruition in the USA. I don’t list them because I don’t know both sides of the story of those occurrences with other leaders or those business dealings, and what happened in the Far East in the sixties didn’t affect the blessing of the Spirit in the USA. Both he and Watchman Nee had very tough jobs in dealing with other leaders. It is not that brother Lee did not care for God’s building. He did care for what was on God’s heart. But, like David, he has discrepancies in his testimony that he cared for God’s heart only. There is no anointing for me to speak to any pre-1974 problems. In 1970 thru 1973, there was a moving of the Spirit among us. In January 1974, Lee and Max stormed to the forefront and the changes outwardly that took place after that changed the spirit of the move inwardly. The move of the Lord was stopped. I witnessed this and so did Don Rutledge in more intense fashion as a leader. Refer to http://www.ourneedtoexamineourselves...entintheLC.pdf (Don and Benson) Make no mistake, you know who I am; I speak the truth about Witness Lee and the trouble he brought to the churches. He was not like Noah whose sin could be covered. He is responsible for untold anguish, suffering, turmoil; division, devastation, and damage in the churches. He has built with straw. Because he and others, especially those he mentored, have done their damage, effecting hundreds and hundreds of people and the oneness in the Body, the truth has to be told about their deviation. So, I have done this for the sake of truth http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...dsRecovery.pdf This book in the link takes apart point by point, or straw by straw, that evil book of lies, and straw, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. It is a sin-ridden book of false witness. Truth is not its concern; headship of Christ is not its concern;keeping the oneness in the Body is not its concern, learning from Lee’s mistakes and listening to the Body is not their concern. The concern in the book is for Witness Lee and his image, to protect his ministry at any cost, and to further an agenda set forth by him. This shows the appreciation of Witness Lee and his ministry is high, but, also the lack of integrity and regard for Christ and a true testimomy. I also have high regard for Witness Lee’s ministry, but not for the men who cannot tell the truth, handle the truth, or even acknowledge the truth, caring only to be in one accord on a path of deviation among ministry churches who support such an evil book and sordid past. |
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02-04-2013, 09:16 PM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,545
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Quote:
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 1 Corinthians 13:1 As you have experienced, all it takes is the utterance of a blended co-worker for one to become persona non grata. Because of man-honoring, all past memories of fellowship is erased out of respect to another man deemed more honorable. I see preference, but I do not see love. In the context of Luke 6:32 what love does exist is conditional. A manner of conditional love saints are stumbled by when they don't measure up. How many times have we read throughout the Bible, "love your neighbor as yourself"? This love is without condition. It is a commandment. |
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02-04-2013, 09:20 PM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Ray,
I think you are still missing my point a bit. I'm not talking about how we should ultimately judge Witness Lee. Because at this point I'm not interested in judging Lee. That's God's job. Lee's dead. I can't stone him and I'm not sure stoning false prophets carries over into the New Testament. And even if it did we couldn't legally carry it out anyway. So what are you suggesting we do to him at this point? I'm talking about what we should do with the things he taught. You are making a strong case for judging Lee harshly. Okay, fine as far as that goes. But that still doesn't tell me what to do with the what he taught. Lee taught redemption. Should I throw that out because Lee taught it? You'd probably say "of course not." Okay then, what should I throw out? Only the things he taught that were different than conventional Christianity? That's an convenient standard, but it's also arbitrary. I think people are ambivalent about Lee because though some of the things he did they can't countenance, some things he taught touched them deeply. It's easy to simply want to wipe his legacy away with a broad brush, and some have taken that path. But that still doesn't satisfy all the questions. |
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02-05-2013, 06:41 AM
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#9 | |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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I'm not weighing on either side of this right now. I'm just asking what people think, because I think the area I'm talking about is a real source of confusion. I know OBW has offered that the source of Recovery blessing was not Lee, but the commitment of the members. That is plausible. But it doesn't explain why the blessing often seemed strongest when we were sitting at the feet of Lee. Can anyone explain? |
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02-05-2013, 09:14 AM
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#10 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,384
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
I'll get to my take on Igzy's question (further below). But first, I will note that my take on his baby-bathwater analysis was not that Lee was the baby, but the teachings we got from him.
And even if we determine that Lee should be entirely rejected, that does not mean that he could only have given us false teachings. But how we determine which might be true will need a different form of evidence than the way we got there the first time. I do not propose that we question that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ because Lee said it. Everyone says it. If he failed to say that, he would have been singled out quickly as a hoax. (Not saying that he was simply a hoax. Just an example.) But of the things we got that are beyond "ordinary" within Christian teaching, we need to take them on more than how we feel about them Feelings are part of the problem, not the solution. Feelings are part of the answer to how we felt blessed when sitting at the feet of Lee. But feelings are just me getting something that makes me feel good. That means that we need something closer to proof. We need to go through a vetting that is not directed by Lee's stories and analogies. We need to question the analogies and stories. Just because a story seems to give an explanation does not mean it is sound or meaningful to the discussion. Quote:
No matter what you say about it, when you have that kind of connection, it provides positive feedback of its own. You feel good from it. Teams, especially successful teams, often have a connection that is more than just being friends. And we were truly all of that. But we were much more. We had something special that others did not have. And we felt even better for it. And what we had was because this odd little Chinese man kept telling us about all the unique things that we were associated with but that very few others were associated with. And those who were didn't even know it, and those who weren't didn't know it either. We were special. And we knew it. And when the man who brought the speciality to us was actually in the room, speaking more of that special word that others were not getting, we performed like puppets on a string. He didn't even have to say anything about us a lot of the time. We just knew that we were learning something that others were not getting or seeing. And when we tried to explain some of this to other Christians, that funny look they gave us was evidence that Lee was right. We were special. We had those spiritual eyes it took to understand spiritual things. And all those poor mooing cows could never see it. Might as well be playing Bach to the beasts of the field. This is even part of the reason that so many of us have problems reintegrating into the whole of God’s people — Christianity. We learned how to pick apart everything about them. But on what basis? Whatever basis Lee gave us. But Lee is the problem, not the basis upon which we determine that others have problems. We need to see and understand that doing many kinds of “servant” things are pleasing to God. Teach Sunday School. Play guitar for worship. Volunteer at a homeless shelter. Do clean-up and painting in poor parts of town. Build with Habitat for Humanity. Occasionally give a little something to one of those beggars on the street — the fries from your combo meal. We felt so “high” at the feet of Lee. But what was the content of it? Learning something higher? Finding a better way to say something? We should be getting our “highs” from obedience to serve. To “do justice” as is mentioned throughout the scripture. To love one another, including our neighbor as ourselves.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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02-05-2013, 08:33 PM
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#11 | ||||||
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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I can give you my opinion on those troublesome questions; and they're fair questions you're asking. Of course, I would be lying if I said I ever personally sat at Lee's feet. I never heard of the man before 2006. That said, I read a number of his books, and heard some of his recorded messages. I saw, just as you did, what kind of sweet (yes, sweet), 'fellowship' we seemed to have with the saints in the Local Churches. I loved many of them whom I knew - and I still do. That's the very reason I come here; because I cannot, in love, remain silent. I must hope and pray that those who are still caught up in the system will have their eyes opened to exactly what they are a part of; and I pray that what I write here causes no one to stumble; that the Lord keeps me close to Him and keeps my heart pure before Him. Let me start by saying that the questions you're asking have also been asked by many others before you. Consider the following testimonies: "I think the first thing we must realize when we look back is the state we were in when we started getting this information. Many of us also believed totally what we'd been told ALL our lives that this way was started in New Testament times and had continued all the years until present. I think our emotional condition during the time we got this information was mass confusion. Disbelief that the man we'd had such confidence in could have possibly deceived us, bewilderment with what could we possibly do now, what do we tell our children, our elderly parents, who in the world could we talk to about this very controversial issues and where does God/Jesus fit into all this? I think the first thought I probably had was fear that I was losing my mind, becoming unwilling, bitter, falling-away--all those things I had been warned against doing. I'd wake up with my heart pounding about out of my chest, perspiring and the dream was some very strict, staunch co-worker of Lee's telling me I'm going to Hell and taking my family and children there with me." or consider: "It takes a long time to recover from the deceptions of the Local Church. There are immediate improvements in one's life, however, when one discovers what really happened historically and learns how the Local Church, like other groups that deceive, manipulates people. Bitterness and anger are normal though you must not let those feelings dominate your life....Your life changes dramatically for the better even though you simultaneously experience emotional pain because you have been lied to for so many years. I have listed things that I have personally experienced and also verified that others have gone through these same feelings...: The most common feeling is the combination of the loss of arrogance and the closer feeling one has toward mankind. This is a great feeling. I no longer feel like I am superior to other people because of the special knowledge that I thought I had possessed....I no longer have to measure everything to how it compares to the teachings of the Local Church...It is wonderful to be free of the burden of constantly imposed guilt. I begin to understand that my own knowledge and skills are sufficient without the need for a "superior" authority telling me what to think or what to do." or how about: "After leaving the Local Church, I had many emotions to work through...anger, fear, sorrow, betrayal, and finally...unspeakable joy! At first I was afraid that I was walking away from God. I can't begin to describe how that felt. Then, as I opened my mind and began to read, I learned about the lies and deception of the Local Church. This brought anger and betrayal. As I began to talk about these discrepancies to Local Church people, they would discount the information and tell me the problem wasn't the LC, but it was me. I was flawed, never had a testimony, if I did have one it was weak. I wasn't praying, reading my HWMR, I was back-biting the leaders of the church, listening to the enemy...whatever....Family members would also turn away from us....The good news is that God did not abandon me. Through Christians that He brought into my life, He showed me that His way was different than the Local Church way. He showed me His grace and love for me personally. I found Him in the bible....Yes I lost a lot by leaving the Local Church, but I've gained more. The relationship I so desperately wanted for years was finally gained, not through religion but by placing my faith in Him. In His finished work on the cross. He didn't die for me because I was GOOD...He died for me because I was BAD....I love Him even more because He also brought my husband and children out of the grips of the Local Church as well" Or... "I can't say it was easy when I finally left the Loca Church. I found myself in great need of the highly energetic relationships that I had experienced in the group. I attended several churches trying to find one that had that energy but I couldn't. You see, the Local Church creates in sense the atmosphere of love and closeness one feels while attending the church. It does this by restricting who you can be friends with, who you have Home Meetings with, and finally who you can have romantic relationships with....I had a nervous breakdown from the stress and finally had to go to therapy. I still at times have that urge to return to the Local Church and I'll tell you sometimes it's very strong, but I know now that I can't- not because they wouldn't accept me back, they would, but rather because I now know what Christianity is truly about. For awhile I fell away from God, but recently have developed a new relationship with Christ, one that has been more powerful than anything I have experienced so far." Now, if you've taken the time to read through those quotes, let me confess to you that I cheated. The quotes are real, but they aren't from members of the Local Churches. They're from (1) the Cooneyites, (2 & 3) from Mormons, and the last from a member of the International Church of Christ. I transcribed these testimonies from the Ex-Holdeman's "One True Churches" website - and they posted them there to show their fellows left behind in the Holdeman Mennonite "One True Church" that their feelings and experiences weren't unique either. Igzy, rather than just answer your questions to the best of my meager abilities, would you be offended if I asked you some questions first? I'm not trying to dodge anything (honest), I just think you're better equipped to answer your own questions than you realize. God lead you here after all, my brother. Quote:
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02-05-2013, 09:19 PM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,384
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
NFL,
I know someone who is badly caught in what you describe in your fourth "hypothetical" scenario. She is constantly disappointed by what she considers "shallow" relationships. Funny thing is that it is not certain that she can pinpoint actually having the kind of relationship that she thinks she should be able to find. I honestly think it is a lingering expectation that the hype from the LRC should be true even if Lee was not and a bunch of the teachings were not.
__________________
Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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02-06-2013, 08:51 AM
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#13 | |||
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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A handful of times I spoke to him, and if you were insincere around him, you would really feel the light shining on you and usually would just shut your mouth and slink away. But one time I felt like it was I who was in the presence of God and he got "burned" by me. It's kind of funny thinking back. Quote:
(Act: 7:55; Acts 13:9; 1Jn 2:20; 1Cor 2:4) Quote:
Your question about mass salvations is fair, but the fact is that kind of thing doesn't happen much in the US anymore. I would say the community church movement has been blessed. But you don't seen cities being turned upside down. So by that standard no one is being blessed at all. I'm naturally a question-asker. I wasn't one of these brothers who just went off the cliff with everyone. I thought about things and weighed them. It got me into trouble. So when I tell you there was something unusual going on in the early days of that movement, believe me it was. Now, there have been other big revivals, manifestations of the Spirit in history. Keswick and so forth. The LC may have been something like that. I think God really wants people to get into the genuine experience of his Holy Spirit--not just gifts, but inwardly. You've seen this emphasis grow in the last few decades. So it's possible, since the LC was one of the few movements really emphasizing that (the Vineyard was another, somewhat), that He stepped in and really confirmed it with a blessing. We took that as a confirmation of everything (local ground, Lord's recovery, yada, yada). But I think it was possibly a confirmation of just two things: oneness and genuine, living experience of the Holy Spirit. But it was a confirmation of something. Whether it was Lee or us or experience or oneness, something was being confirmed. |
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02-06-2013, 11:22 AM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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I was saved for nearly a year, yet I still smoked cigarettes. I was hooked on my Camel Filters since back in high school, and by that time I was living with my daily "curse." I just could not quit my addiction with all my available resources. It was to me both a shameful and a disgusting habit, and that was back in the days when workplace smoking was commonplace. After a few days at my first summer training, the cigarettes were gone ... forever. To all those who knew me, it was just an unbelievable miracle! How could I go on vacation to SoCal and return smoke free. Every day, especially in the meetings, I was filled with the Spirit. Back in those early days, I used to get these "power rushes" up my head, just filled with joy to overflowing. Perhaps WL had little to do with my miracle of deliverance. Perhaps the real source of the blessed anointing was the many other seeking brothers and sisters. Perhaps it was the living and operating Word of God. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps ... I just knew there was a power greater than my own. To be honest, at times I had the same infilling and anointing in the church in Cleveland in those early days. It was so exciting and invigorating. We loved to meet and see what the Lord was speaking in our hearts. By the time the "new way" was thrust upon the LC's, all that experience of the Spirit's anointing was long gone, replaced by human works and manipulations. Like you said Igzy, unless one was there in those early days, it's hard to find anything at all good to say about WL or the Recovery.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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02-06-2013, 04:21 PM
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#15 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Quote:
My point for bringing all this out was to apply some balance to those who go overboard in dismissing what we were a part of back then. Because in my experience that leads to cognitive dissonance, where you try to tell yourself something but your memory and experience tell you something else. Regardless, whatever was blessed about it, it didn't belong to Witness Lee or anyone else. It belonged to God. It was his blessing. It's nothing to be ashamed of or to try to run away from or forget or explain away. I think we should treasure those blessings while at the same time understanding that what some tried to turn it into (the unique move, "Lord's Recovery," only true testimony, MOTA, yada, yada) was all the invention of man, and shows how people can take something of God and ruin it. Sadly, it wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last. At the same time, it is in the past. It's not what is happening now, except that the same Lord over all who made it happen then is rich to all that call on him now. |
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02-07-2013, 07:43 AM
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#16 | |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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Brothers and sisters. Besides the obvious intrinsic value, what is the real difference between gold, silver and precious stones and wood, hay and straw? Is it not that the latter is produced by the labor of man? If a man builds with gold, silver and precious stones it will remain. The wind and rain will come. The fire will come. If what was produced is truly of God it will remain. Whether it be six months, six decades or six hundred years....the gold, silver and precious stones will remain. And no man will have to point out to us and proclaim "see! see! Look at all that gold, silver and precious stones! Those who know God and know his Word will recognize and appreciate, and yes even give credit where credit is due.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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02-07-2013, 08:09 AM
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#17 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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Thank you for answering those questions - I appreciate your honesty, and your testimony. If you would permit me, I would now like to offer some of those answers of mine that you asked about... and in doing that I want to reiterate that I wasn't there with you - any of you - who were with Witness Lee in the flesh. To my mind, that should not detract from what I have to say about his teachings, as I think they've been very faithfully relayed both here and in the published LSM literature. I also have the experience of being a part of Lee's legacy, of seeing both damaged saints and those who are still a part of the group. I have spoken to them, worshipped with them, and lived with them. Igzy, I want to start with your quote above. You can see that I have italicized and bolded what I would say are your "key words" in defining an "anointing" or "anointed leader." Such a thing, you say, should be sensed. I would like to share with you some quotes from a book Watchman Nee published in Chinese earlier in his ministry, about such things as these senses. "....Satan's first work as deceiver... (is) working upon an innocent creature's highest and purest desires, and cloaking his own purpose of ruin, under the guise of seeking to lead a human being nearer to God." "Caught with the bait of being 'wise' and 'like God', Eve is blinded to the principle involved in obedience to God, and is DECEIVED (1 Timothy 2:14)" "The keenest way in which the Devil deceives the world, and the Church, is when he comes in the guise of somebody, or something, which apparently causes them to go God-ward" "The arch-deceiver is not only the deceiver of the whole unregenerate world, but of the children of God also; with this difference, that in the deception he seeks to practice upon the saints, he changes his tactics, and works with acutest strategy, in wiles of error, and deception concerning thing of God (Matthew 24:24, 2nd Cor 11:3,13-15)" "When he (the formerly fleshy or carnal Christian) emerges into the heavenly places, described by Paul in the Epistle to the Ephesians, he will find himself in the very keenest workings of the wiles of the deceiver, where the deceiving spirits are actively at work attacking those who are united to the Risen Lord." "The believers highest experience of union with the Lord, and in the "high places" of the spiritual maturity of the Church, will the keenest and closest battle be fought with the deceiver and his hosts." "The peril of the Church at the close of the age is, therefore, from supernatural beings who are "hypocrites", who pretend what they are not, who give "teachings" which appear to make for greater holiness, by producing ascetic severity to the "flesh", but who themselves are wicked and unclean and bring those they deceive into contact with the foulness of their presence." "Working in the line of teaching, deceiving spirits will insert their "lies" spoken in hypocrisy, into "holiness" teaching, and deceive believers about sin, themselves, and all other truths connected with the spiritual life." "texts are aptly picked out from over a wide field, and so netted together as to appear to give a full revelation of the mind of God; but the intervening passages, giving historical setting, actions and circumstances connected with the speaking of the words, and other elements which give light on each separate text, are skillfully dropped out." "truth alone dispels the deceptive doctrines of the teaching spirits of Satan: the truth of God, not merely "views of truth". "dependence upon a Christ within... is really a resting upon an inward experience, and a turning from the Christ in Heaven, which actually blocks the avenue for the inflow of His life, and disassociates the believers from co-operation with Him by the Spirit." "The counterfeit "presence" of God is nearly always manifested as "love", to which the believer opens himself without hesitation, and finds it fills and satiates his innermost being, but the deceived one does not know that he has opened himself to the activity of evil spirits in the deepest need of his inner life". Igzy, Watchman Nee considered these words so anointed and true that he translated them into Chinese for his people, and taught them in his Little Flock. Many years later, Witness Lee would refute all of the teachings in this book,and openly castigated it and it's original author - as well as Nee's "misdirected" acceptance of such a work.... but that's because it blows Lee's theology out of the water, and it does that with Biblical teaching, Biblical truth. Feelings, senses, and experiences are not to be trusted. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." Matthew 15:19 Can God allow His people, His chosen, to be deceived? Absolutely. Even the disciples, at the Last Supper, when Christ told them that one among them was about to betray Him, did not turn their eyes to Judas. Even when Christ exposed him, by saying that "he who dips his bread into the bowl with me" was the one, they did not believe it. Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve, he was sent out to preach the gospel, to cast out evil spirits and to heal the sick... and apparently, he did all those things - why else was he never suspected? ...And yet it were better for that man had he never been born. Paul said, in 2nd Corinthians 11:12-16 "I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us (apostles) in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." ******************* Interesting you should mention the Keswick Revival, as the quotes above were from a member of the Body whom the Lord raised up in that very place in time. Jesse Penn Lewis, and her book "War on the Saints". Nee was right to translate this work and teach it. The truths expose and cut to the quick, and that can be painful... but the truth also sets free... Praise the Lord! |
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02-07-2013, 08:39 AM
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#18 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
NFNL,
Thanks for the quote and the warning that even God's people can be deceived. While I appreciate your warning about the potential deception involved with subjective experiences, the fact is a Christian is supposed to have them. Verse after verse in the Bible tell us of things which can only be understood from the standpoint of experiencing them. Some examples: Then coming to the borders of Mysia, they headed north for the province of Bithynia, but again the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to go there. Acts 16:7. So while warnings about the potential pitfalls of taking one's cues from our subjective experience are warranted, the fact is they are a essential part of the Christian experience. And since we are supposed to have them, they are supposed to form something of the reality of our lives and worldview. They are not optional or expendable. It's also good to be warned that our experiences should never contradict the Bible. The problem with that is that the Bible cannot be interpreted correctly outside of experience. We need the Spirit to guide us into the correct interpretation, and the guidance of the Spirit is a subjective experience. So it's a bit of a Catch-22. You need the Bible to check your experience, but you need your experience to correctly interpret the Bible. The verses above are prime examples. Without experience, there are all kinds of false interpretations one could take from them. Like all things that really matter, theory is easy. It's application that matters. |
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02-07-2013, 01:51 PM
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#19 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 713
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Re:Up from Babylon
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When Lee came to the U. S., he brought three decades of experience with him, two decades under Nee. He saw much in God’s word; had valuable church life experience; and developed his own ministry. These brothers, Nee and Lee, were outside of organized religion and God blessed them to meet as one on a ground of oneness in a city. God did not agree either with denominations that slice up the Body of Christ into different sections, and pastors shaking hands over the fence. When Witness Lee met up with seekers of the Lord in the U. S., it was he who had the weighty background, and they asked him to meet with them. He naturally became their leader and his ministry began to be released. Regardless of who he learned from, he saw things spiritually in the Bible and could minister them with profound effect among the seeking ones who were his recipients in the early days of the church life in America. There were no pews with a pastor but every saint could function and was encouraged to speak. Like Moses, Lee desired that “you all would prophesy (speak forth Christ).” What a recovery! What a tremendous help to all the churches as they grew and spread around the country, and what a contrast with what we still see today in the best of meeting places, with only a paid pastor doing the speaking. (It has been 12 years since I met in the Local Churches and I have been to many other gatherings of believers. None had access to the weightiness of ministry and decades of experience in their lineage to help usher them into a church life as the local churches did in the U. S. when Witness Lee arrived.) I think Witness Lee had much to do with the harmony among the churches, through conferences, fellowship with leaders, publications, and by his own godly example, as Igzy alluded to. He instilled confidence for a saint’s moving ahead in the local churches, and also hope for the churches and their future, which served to stabilize the churches. His close relationship with Nee for about two decades was a big factor for the confidence and hope the saints had. In other words, the local churches in the U. S. had a history and lineage from China and Taiwan to immediately benefit them and receive blessing of the Spirit from, especially with Lee here with them. Indeed, when they moved to Los Angeles to be near him from around the country, revival came. It came from the lineage; the product of that lineage, Witness Lee; and their heart to meet on a ground of oneness with other believers. Songs poured out of the saints as they were being built up in their localities year after year. They made the songs up themselves from their experience and enjoyment of Christ, and the word and ministry they were blessed to be under. The reason Ohio lost his desire for cigarettes is that he was transferred, solidly, into another realm with Christ as his life and God’s house as his home and dwelling place. It was a place of absolute separation from the world and habitation with God. “They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.” (Ps. 36:8) We were inspired by Old Testament exhortation from Nehemiah to “rise up and build.” God’s people received this call to rise up, to go up, and build, or rebuild, the temple. There was every indication that we were exactly what we were told we were and that we were in a recovery of the truth of God’s word, experience of Christ as our life, and in a church of God’s glory, meeting on a proper ground of oneness. For there, on the proper ground, “the Lord commanded the blessing, even life forevermore.” (Ps. 133) And we had the leadership to open up the way for us. I think Witness Lee and the ground of oneness teaching and practice he brought to the U. S. were key to the amount of blessing of the Spirit received in the local churches. Of course, his teaching on the human spirit and enjoying Christ as our life for the building up of the church were crucial to our experience of the blessing of the Spirit in those days. Many songs came out and filled the supplement pages concerning these experiences, teachings, and practices. But first, we needed to come out of the divisions to be on the right ground for meeting, and for blessing. 1. Down in Babylon, in captivity, Oh, the Lord has stirred our spirit up! Scattered everywhere, without unity, Oh, the Lord has stirred our spirit up! Stirred up! Stirred up! Oh, the Lord has stirred our spirit up! 2. Up from Babylon, where the sects abound, From division we must all rise up! Brothers, Babylon’s not the proper ground; From division we must all rise up! Rise up! Rise up! From division we must all rise up! 3. To Jerusalem, from captivity, God is with us, let us all go up! To the one unique ground of unity, God is with us, let us all go up! Go up! Go up! God is with us, let us all go up! 4. Platters full of Christ, bowls with Spirit filled— All the vessels of the Lord bring up! Bring them to the church as the Lord has willed— All the vessels of the Lord bring up! Bring up! Bring up! All the vessels of the Lord bring up! 5. In Jerusalem, chosen of the Lord, Now the temple of the Lord build up! Serve with all the saints, share in one accord, Now the temple of the Lord build up! Build up! Build up! Now the temple of the Lord build up! Down in Babylon http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/1252 Steve Isitt Cagayan de Oro, the Philippines 2/7/2013 will return Feb 28 to Seattle |
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02-07-2013, 05:24 PM
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#20 | ||
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Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 360
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Re: Up from Babylon
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1. Witness Lee was persona non grata in the Far East due to his financial shenanegins with the saints' money and came to America as an escape from an unwelcoming environment. Using the name of Watchman Nee for credibility he was able to rebuild his ministry in a land of innocents where most people didn't bother to do a background check on his previous detrimental activities. It was only after Daystar that people started to figure out that maybe not everything was bliss and "blessing" with Witness Lee or as he so succinctly put it: I guess they're not virgins anymore! 2. The doctrine of "the ground of oneness" is not about being one with every true believer in a city. It's about being one with anyone who accepts the elders that Witness Lee appointed and who are loyal to him, his ministry and agenda. And to also accept that Witness Lee's materials will be the curriculum of the church. In other words, the ground of their oneness is Witness Lee and it always was Witness Lee and anyone who really knows the backstage history of the LC system in the USA knows this. 3. There were no pews and pastors but there were chairs and elders who supposedly functioned as pastors/shepherds (same word in NT) but were so ill-equipped their counsel was at best sketch. 4. Sure people could speak in the meetings IF their speaking was in "the flow" as dictated by the curriculum as dictated by Witness Lee. Eventually this grew into a simplistic repetition of Witness Lee's content from messages, footnotes, etc. Quote:
2. Regarding so called "weightiness of ministry" that you think is lacking outside the LC system what I guess you mean is most ministers don't spend time on theological abstractions (which they know how to do but choose not to.) Most teaching is about having healthy relationships in marriage and families, outreaching to the community, living a Christ-like life, etc. Practical issues that people face day-to-day in real life. Because after all who really needs to hear messages with 10 syllable word outline titles devised by Witness Lee tape recorders who apparently think talking "spiritually" = actually being spiritual where the rubber meets the road? |
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02-08-2013, 07:38 AM
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#21 |
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Location: DFW area
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
The evidence of the filth in Lee's teachings was already there when I started in early '73. It was in the teachings which had been memorialized in the songs. Songs like "Down in Babylon . . . ." Songs that spoke of our special place as not being a division as we separated from whoever we had been with and stood apart from them all and chastised them.
And we often got those high feelings when we sang songs like "Down in Babylon," "We're in the local church, God's chosen ground," and others that enveloped us in speciality. Even the whole idea of being "spiritual" is more a creation of Lee's teachings than of Christ's or Paul's. Paul did not say to be spiritual, he said to be holy. To be righteous. But why do we insist upon understanding the Christian life mostly in terms of Paul rather than Christ? Argue all you want about scripture being scripture and I will agree. But in terms of its content, there is a core. That would be the actual words of God — through prophets in the OT and thorough Jesus in the NT. And the Jews had it right. There is God's speaking and there is commentary. Some of that commentary we call scripture. Some we don't. In the NT, the gospels are the speaking of God in clear words. The rest is commentary. So when it seems that Jesus spent most of his time speaking about righteousness, justice, love, our living, but we think Paul is talking about something different — spirituality — we aren't reading him correctly. He is commenting on what Jesus said, not providing a different way.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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02-08-2013, 12:37 PM
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#22 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Re: Up from Babylon
Quote:
A co-worker may be verbose, eloquent, and able to give good-sounding messages, but this does not correspond to the spiritual reality. Interesting you brought up the phrase abstractions. That's been an obstacle. Re-speaking Lee's ministry may be good for face value at the Lord's Table meeting, but how does what you just respoke translate practically living day to day? I've been in homes of LC saints when it comes to marriage ministry, you won't find it in a LSM publication. You'd need to go to another ministry for marriage shepherding. What about children, issues relating to children? For sisters they may need to visit sisters from the local community church to seek practical care and building. |
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02-08-2013, 12:59 PM
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#23 | |
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Re: Up from Babylon
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02-08-2013, 04:07 PM
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#24 | |
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Location: USA
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Re: Up from Babylon
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'I began to wonder if it really was all over—if there could ever again be new nterprises in the house of God, at least among us. Others who have wished for the same in recent years sought to restore Local Church momentum by resurrecting “sacred cows” from the scrap heap. For instance, they assigned blame to those who messed up the local ground pattern found in Nee and Lee’s early writings. [Steve?] Their logic was that the teaching was right but the people were wrong and so, “Let’s try again, but harder this time!” Then they issued solemn assurances of blessing to those who returned to the local ground blueprint. This, however, hardly constitutes a promising course of action. The new thing would simply be an old thing reloaded and set to explode in the face of yet another unsuspecting generation.'Better this attitude: 'So why bother with any version of an LC future? Well, the desire for a church restart, complete with reupholstering and rebuild, I believe, is a wish for something redemptive. We hope that after all the time, the energy, the tears, the prayer, the sacrifice, and the difficult decisions that made up LC life, something might arise to keep it all from seeming a colossal waste. I am among those hopeful hearts.'But, whatever, Steve, try to move forward. Don't just keep reliving memories of the Recovery like some guy pining for an old flame who died years ago. |
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02-08-2013, 04:20 PM
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#25 |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: Up from Babylon
And this from Myer, Steve, on why the local ground was and is a false hope and a lost cause.
'Although every top level local church worker believes some form of local ground teaching, according to my observation, not one of them practices it. This is never more apparent than when workers enter a city to start a new church. Most establish a group that will be loyal to them, attend their The first century church met in the locality because they were one. They didn't meet as one because they were in the locality. There is a big difference. The local ground doctrine deserves no credit except insofar as it encouraged people to actually value true oneness. In the early LC in the US, I believe that was the case, and hence the blessing. But later the oneness was just the oneness of the movement, and then the local ground became a problem, a dividing ground. |
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02-09-2013, 02:29 AM
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#26 | |
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Posts: 713
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Re: Up from Babylon
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I wonder, Igzy, why you did not refer to my points in post #19, which were in response to the pertinent forum questions: 1) Why there was a blessing of the Spirit in the early days of the church life; and 2) What effect Witness Lee had on that blessing in the local churches in those days. References by me in #19 to the ground of oneness were concerning the early church life in America; not current day Local Church life on a path of deviation from the earlier days. Your posts distracted people from my reference point to thoughts of current day LC misuse of the teaching of the ground; John Myer's thoughts about the ground; and a bit of mockery of me, with advice that I should try to move forward and not be in a pining mode for the past. Do you want to address the points I made? Or evade them? From Post #19 1. Ah, but the American brothers were in the process of a recovery that began with Watchman Nee in China when he was a student seeking the truth of the proper ground to come together as Christians. He and other young brothers could not find scriptural ground for the denominations and began to meet on the ground that they were one with every true believer in the city. They were compelled by their conscience that they could not meet in any other way. Witness Lee a few years later joined them, although he had a successful work going on in Northern China. He could see that blessing was with Nee and his ministry from reports he had heard and the monthly publication by Nee he read, called, The Christian. He was convicted by the truth he found in Nee’s ministry. 2. When Lee came to the U. S., he brought three decades of experience with him, two decades under Nee. He saw much in God’s word; had valuable church life experience; and developed his own ministry. These brothers, Nee and Lee, were outside of organized religion and God blessed them to meet as one on a ground of oneness in a city. God did not agree either with denominations that slice up the Body of Christ into different sections, and pastors shaking hands over the fence. 3. When Witness Lee met up with seekers of the Lord in the U. S., it was he who had the weighty background, and they asked him to meet with them. He naturally became their leader and his ministry began to be released. Regardless of who he learned from, he saw things spiritually in the Bible and could minister them with profound effect among the seeking ones who were his recipients in the early days of the church life in America. 4. There were no pews with a pastor but every saint could function and was encouraged to speak. Like Moses, Lee desired that “you all would prophesy (speak forth Christ).” What a recovery! What a tremendous help to all the churches as they grew and spread around the country, and what a contrast with what we still see today in the best of meeting places, with only a paid pastor doing the speaking. (It has been 12 years since I met in the Local Churches and I have been to many other gatherings of believers. None had access to the weightiness of ministry and decades of experience in their lineage to help usher them into a church life as the local churches did in the U. S. when Witness Lee arrived.) 5. I think Witness Lee had much to do with the harmony among the churches, through conferences, fellowship with leaders, publications, and by his own godly example, as Igzy alluded to. He instilled confidence for a saint’s moving ahead in the local churches, and also hope for the churches and their future, which served to stabilize the churches. His close relationship with Nee for about two decades was a big factor for the confidence and hope the saints had. In other words, the local churches in the U. S. had a history and lineage from China and Taiwan to immediately benefit them and receive blessing of the Spirit from, especially with Lee here with them. Indeed, when they moved to Los Angeles to be near him from around the country, revival came. It came from the lineage; the product of that lineage, Witness Lee; and their heart to meet on a ground of oneness with other believers. 6. Songs poured out of the saints as they were being built up in their localities year after year. They made the songs up themselves from their experience and enjoyment of Christ, and the word and ministry they were blessed to be under. The reason Ohio lost his desire for cigarettes is that he was transferred, solidly, into another realm with Christ as his life and God’s house as his home and dwelling place. It was a place of absolute separation from the world and habitation with God. “They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.” (Ps. 36:8) 7. We were inspired by Old Testament exhortation from Nehemiah to “rise up and build.” God’s people received this call to rise up, to go up, and build, or rebuild, the temple. There was every indication that we were exactly what we were told we were and that we were in a recovery of the truth of God’s word, experience of Christ as our life, and in a church of God’s glory, meeting on a proper ground of oneness. For there, on the proper ground, “the Lord commanded the blessing, even life forevermore.” (Ps. 133) 8. And we had the leadership to open up the way for us. I think Witness Lee and the ground of oneness teaching and practice he brought to the U. S. were key to the amount of blessing of the Spirit received in the local churches. Of course, his teaching on the human spirit and enjoying Christ as our life for the building up of the church were crucial to our experience of the blessing of the Spirit in those days. Many songs came out and filled the supplement pages concerning these experiences, teachings, and practices. 9. But first, we needed to come out of the divisions to be on the right ground for meeting, and for blessing. |
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02-09-2013, 01:06 PM
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#27 | |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: Back Down to Babylon
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I wasn't mocking you. I was speaking my heart to you. You seem hung up on an idealized version of the past about which you've reached some unhealthy conclusions. So things were great back then? That's fine as far as that goes. But please tell us what that means for us TODAY. So far I haven't heard much. You seem to be suggesting that we all need to go back to the way it was then. As John Myer said, that's not going to happen. I've already suggested what I think about that past--that God is always looking for people who are willing to experience his reality in the Spirit and be one around him, so he blessed us initially. That is enough for me to understand what happened back then. The rest of it--such as that Nee and Lee were the bellwethers of "The Lords's Recovery," or that God was vindicating the local ground, or that everything else was Babylon from which we were to go up, go up, etc-- is really just extreme speculation. You can believe it if you want, but there is absolutely no reason to expect anyone else to. I'm not mocking you, I'm trying to understand you. I think a call to return to the past is a BAD PRESCRIPTION. I think it will simply reproduce the same result we've seen--exclusiveness masquerading as oneness. And my purpose here is to try to help people who are dealing with an LC past. So I have to call out what I think are bad prescriptions. That's what I think the Lord wants me to do. I'm currently reading a book on economics. In it the author defends capitalism, but acknowledges its weaknesses. To those who believe that government should control the economy he has this to say--at its extremes such an arrangement can only be enforced through oppression. That's the LRC all over. Its defenders argue that it is the best system. But like a command economy, it can only be maintained through oppression. The local ground results in oppression. "God's unique move on the Earth" results in oppression. The system you defend had the seeds of oppression built into it. Oppression didn't happen because bad guys got in charge. It happened because of the belief that the system was the one true way. Sadly, all the singing about going up from Babylon led to being oppressed in another Babylon. Don't you see that? And where there is economic oppression (material or spiritual) there is eventually going to be a black market--for alternatives to government-issued shoes, or for a decent ministry for women, or for a different set of elders than those who presume to be over the city in which I happen to live. In the world of command economists, which includes LRCers, those who participate in the black market are called "dissenting ones." So it goes... |
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02-09-2013, 02:08 PM
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#28 | ||
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: Up from Babylon
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So what is the true measure of God's blessing among a group of Christians? Is it numbers? Well if so the Local Church of Witness Lee has fallen woefully short. There are a number single location "megachurches" that have weekly attendance with larger numbers than the Local Church has in all it's USA locations put together. Even in the "heyday" of Elden Hall, the Local Church was not particularly blessed with impressive numbers. Is the true measure how long, loud or raucous the meetings are? Is it the enthusiasm, dedication or devoutness of the members? The Local Church was hardly alone in these things. Quote:
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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02-09-2013, 04:44 PM
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#29 | |
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Posts: 360
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Re: Up from Babylon
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02-09-2013, 08:47 PM
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#30 | |
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Posts: 713
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Re: Up from Babylon
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I began with explaining the history, saying, "the American brothers were in the process of a recovery that began with Watchman Nee in China when he was a student seeking the truth of the proper ground for coming together as Christians. He and other young brothers could not find scriptural ground for the denominations in their city and began to meet on the ground that they were one with every true believer in the city. They were compelled by their conscience that they could not meet in any other way." Q. Was this a correct determination of these brothers before their Lord? If so, should our position be any different today? "Witness Lee a few years later joined them, although he had a successful work going on in Northern China. He could see that blessing was with Nee and his ministry from reports he had heard and the monthly publication by Nee he read, called, The Christian. He was convicted by the truth he found in Nee’s ministry, including meeting on a proper ground of oneness." Q. Do you agree that both Nee and Lee met on the ground that "we are one with all true believers in our city" (in early 1930s). Was this ground upon which they met right, and scriptural? I believe their positioning was proper and right with God's heart; but it can only be carried out if in attitude they remain inclusive of others as was these brothers intention in the beginning. And, principally, those in the 60s and early 70s in the lc met on such a ground and blessing came to them in much more abundance than if they had not been meeting on a ground of oneness. Seeking believers were being added to the churches around the country and claiming "we're home!", and this was due to the New Testament reality of coming up from Babylon to Jerusalem, "to the place which the Lord thy God has chosen." |
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02-10-2013, 06:24 PM
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#31 | |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: Back to Babylon
Indiana,
How do you know the Lord was not simply blessing a desire to achieve oneness, rather than the means they chose (locality)? It seems to me that your conclusion is too speculative. The Lord clearly commanded oneness, he did not command locality. The ground of locality has shown itself to be a self-destructive doctrine. Attempts to enforce it lead to oppression and divisiveness. How is that a blessing? If you are going to endorse the ground of locality doctrine then it is incumbent upon you to spell out how it is to be practiced and how it is to overcome the problems manifestly inherent in it. You shouldn't just keep repeating that "Oh, the Lord blessed this wonderful stand." That is not fair to those here seeking to know how to go forward. If you can't provide a way to practice this locality model, then you need to stop endorsing it. I wish you could understand this. The more you wear rose-colored glasses about the ground of locality, while ignoring it's problems, the more you discourage others from moving onto a church model that works and does not result in the abuse seen in the LC movement. Your stand encourages guilt in ex-LCers without providing a way for them to go on. Quote:
This is what I mean when I say you cannot truly tell us how to practice this doctrine. See, here's the thing. If you hold to the locality model, then you have to believe that anyone who doesn't practice it is divisive. And the Bible tells us to shun divisive people.* So how are you going to be inclusive of people the Bible tells us to shun? The only way is to consider them not divisive. But if you do that you've basically said locality doesn't matter. This is just another example of the contradictions in this doctrine. My point is you cannot practice the doctrine without at some level believing that everyone needs to meet with you. That's not inclusiveness, that's presumed ownership. See, it's not about locality, it's about oneness. *This is how LCers can rationalize ignoring other Christians. |
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02-10-2013, 06:45 PM
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#32 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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The Ground of Locality is a Misaiming
So I'll repeat. Contrary to our friend Indiana, I do not think any blessing on the LC movement had anything to do with the ground of locality doctrine. I believe it came, at least partly, because of the genuine desire to achieve a testimony of oneness.
Oneness was the right goal. But the local ground was the wrong approach, the wrong emphasis. This is a subtle, but important, distinction. And as we know Satan is the king of subtlety. We desired oneness, but we chose the wrong tool. Oneness appeared in localities in the first century because of oneness, not because of locality. Trying to use locality to enforce oneness is like trying to use a rooster to make the sun rise. It's getting things backwards. If we are for oneness, we don't need to worry about the boundaries of our churches. But declaring that the boundary of our church is the city does not make us any more one than we were before we made the declaration. In fact, it may make us less one, because once we make the declaration, we are stating at some level that we are more legitimate than other gatherings. So I'll repeat again, all we need is an attitude of oneness with all other Christians based on our common faith. We do not need to declare we are standing on the ground of locality. There is not one instance in the NT of any church making such a declaration. |
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02-10-2013, 09:43 PM
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#33 | |
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Member
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Posts: 713
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Re: proper ground of oneness is on the mark
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Concerning "genuine desire to achieve a testimony of oneness," it comes more intensely for ones meeting on a ground of oneness with a ministry furnishing them light on God's goal and heart's desire for the oneness, opened up to them through the word of God by able ministers. When Nee took the position he did in humility on a ground of oneness, more light came and it didn’t stop. His ministry was for the churches to build up the house of God on a proper ground. Then Lee came to the U. S. after at least 18 years with Nee - learning, observing, and gaining Christ. The ground of oneness made complete sense to the seeking American believers, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Don Rutledge among them; Benson Phillips, Don Hardy, and Samuel Chang were there too. All were experiencing the blessing of meeting on the ground of unity and growing into a temple of the Lord and being built together into a habitation of God in spirit in their localities. But their impetus came from abroad and ushered them in to their experience in the U. S. churches. There is no confusion or guilt when we are in the light. Why, why, why would we sing, “we are home, we are home, we are home!" if that sense did not resonate in us “all”. We could sing in this way because we were home! And the light was shining on the ground of unity open to all believers. Debbie Neilsen came and was captured her 1st meeting with tears; Sandy Prince came and was captured in her 1st meeting, with tears. Sherman Robertson came and was captured his first meeting, visibly amazed. Ray Desimone came, Pat and LeAnn Stocklin came, all captured right away, the light shining and the saints rejoicing, and the light dispersing the darkness. Considering the ground of oneness in these links, is the fellowship appropriate if taken in a humble spirit? Witness Lee booklet on The Ground of the Church http://twoturmoils.com/GroundoftheChurch.pdf Nee and Lee in the church in Shanghai http://twoturmoils.com/Thelocalchurchinshanghai.pdf Brother Igzy, and brothers and sisters, such a way was made for the Lord because brothers had taken a proper stand together, and the light came, and so did the people. Nee and Lee were not “just men” who could now be tossed to the side and something new innovated. They were men of revelation, and men of God. The mistakes they might have made did not take away from the light they brought through many of the teachings they ministered in the church, God’s house and dwelling place. Witness Lee wrote this hymn and many more that help us to see and love what Christ died for and what we live for. I think we should be quite thankful for the help they rendered to the churches in the U. S. and acknowledge their extreme worth to the cause of Christ. 1 Thy dwelling-place, O Lord, I love; It is Thy Church so blessed, It is Thy joy and heart’s delight And where Thy heart finds rest. 2 For her, Thyself Thou gavest, Lord, That she be Thine, complete; For her, I too my body give, Thy heart’s desire to meet. 3 For her, Thou hast become my life, That she my living be; For her, I would forsake myself, That she be filled with Thee. 4 The Church is Thy beloved Bride, Thou in Thy Body seen; She is my joy and heart’s desire, The one on whom I lean. 5 In her, Thy full supply, O Lord, Thou dost to me impart; In her am I possessed by Thee To satisfy Thy heart. 6 Thy dwelling-place, O Lord, I love; It is Thy Church, Thy home; In it I would forever live And never longer roam. |
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02-11-2013, 07:54 AM
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#34 | |
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Member
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Posts: 360
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Re: Up from Babylon
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As I mentioned earlier in the 1960s there was cultural turmoil in the U.S. and in this kind of ferment the Jesus People movement emerged as did the LC system, etc. i.e. these kind of churches offered alternatives to young people searching for a different way of doing things. Your theory is that only the LC system was outside of Babylon and therefore got the blessing. The fact that places like Calvary Chapel which came out of the Jesus People movement also received much blessing and still does to this day somehow does not fit into your very limited narrow-minded scheme of things. |
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02-11-2013, 09:24 AM
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#35 |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: Up from Babylon
Indiana,
Although I'm all for unity, I do not see that the Bible teaches that the house of God should be build on the "proper ground" and that ground is unity. The Bible teaches that dwelling together in unity is "good and pleasant" and receives a blessing of the Spirit. But the idea that unity is the ground on which the church is built, I do not see that teaching in the Word. Please point me to the verses that teach this. If you google "ground of the church" you will only find references to it from either Lee or his followers. I don't see any other significant Christian teacher that teaches this idea. This should be a red flag. After fifty years in this country, no one has picked it up. Yet, there is a strong movement for genuine unity among Christians now, even in cities. Our pastor has taught on this. But he doesn't teach "the proper ground of oneness," and with good reason. It's an open invitation to another "we have the right stand, you don't" movement. A few years ago I felt I got a strong speaking from the Lord. I wondered, as I've been doing aloud again recently, why the LC got such a blessing if they were wrong. I felt the Lord said to me, "The desire for genuine oneness pleased me. But they went about it wrong." I didn't understand so much then, but over time it's become clearer. The focus on locality, the claims of being the Church in such-and-such-city in anything but the most general terms, was wrong. Yes, Nee and Lee were men of God... and they also were just men. And so are you and I. There are many other Christian men and women of God who have lived and served and gone to be with the Lord who you never heard of. Many of these saw unity as clear or clearer than Nee and Lee did. The only difference is they did not start movements. I still feel there is a lot of uncalled for hero worship with you toward Nee and especially Lee which you do not need in order to carry on. And I don't believe that is healthy. It just seems you are waving the Nee/Lee flag instead of the Jesus flag. I understand a little pushback toward this board. But, honestly, is that all it is? |
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02-11-2013, 11:30 AM
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#36 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Up from Babylon
Quote:
Based on the Lord's own words to the Samaritan women in John 4:21-24, I can never again be convinced that a certain ministry or congregation is forever blessed because of some correct doctrinal standing. Unfortunately, that same apparent "stand" which many thought was the source of blessing turned out later on to foster a rotten root of pride and arrogance. The real tragedy is that many Christian congregations seem forever doomed to repeat the failures of Laodicea. Philadelphia, however, remained healthy because they never stopped to consider how "rich" they were. Our heavenly Father desires those who worship in spirit and reality. These two ingredients far supersede any correct doctrinal standing. Where we are physically at seems to have little consequence, as the Lord taught the Samaritan woman. Nearly every congregation and denomination now extant once enjoyed God's smile and heavenly blessing, otherwise they would have vanished long ago. At one time, many Methodist and Presbyterian congregations were very blessed by God, though it may be hard to ascertain that now. Regarding the topic "Up from Babylon," Judah needed to return to God in heart and spirit long before the Babylonians removed them from the promised land. God blessed the returning remnant, not because they physically returned, but because their hearts had returned to God. Because their hearts returned to God, they now longed for the same things which God desired.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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02-11-2013, 06:22 PM
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#37 | |
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Member
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Posts: 713
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Re: Up from Babylon
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"young people searching for a different way of doing things." You make light, AW - former pastors came into the local churches; blue collar and white collar professionals came in with their families, many bright, young college students came in, and me just "looking" for truth, and something real, and real people. People of different races came in...all sorts of people were drawn to the local churches and their enjoyment of the Person of Christ "in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" 1 Tim. 3:15). "Your theory is that only the LC system was outside of Babylon and therefore got the blessing. The fact that places like Calvary Chapel which came out of the Jesus People movement also received much blessing and still does to this day somehow does not fit into your very limited narrow-minded scheme of things." AW, I have a couple of well-educated, culturally-diverse friends in Seattle who believe that by my being a Christian I have a "very narrow-minded scheme of things". - that believing Jesus died and rose from the dead is believing a fairy tale; that believing the Bible, written by mere men, that believing Jesus actually lived (no one can prove it, you see), that not accepting other beliefs and appreciating their ways of life (Muslims and their Koran;Mormons; Buddhists, etc.) that not accepting gay marriage and life-style is having a "very narrow-minded scheme of things." They are serious and somewhat hurt that I could not be more open-minded. They think I have such a good heart and potential for doing good that I limit myself... (They are friends, but at arms length.) At any rate. I certainly am bound by what I see. And, I have shared some things with you as a testimony, AW. You don't have to receive my testimony. I have reasons why I have limited appreciations elsewhere, but having been "banned" for 12 years from LC meetings, I have had the occasional experiences of attending other gatherings of believers, 10 months in one place, and have met many born-again believers, 5 nights in a row recently at a Philippine Baptist conference; for 2 months going into the village with a Philippine Assembly of God pastor to visit and care for some people, and start a couple of Bible studies. |
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02-11-2013, 06:35 PM
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Re: Up from Babylon
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1) Other people have accused you of having a narrow view of other things, (and in each of those cases, we Christians would agree with you that they were wrong). and 2) That your narrow view about the matter at hand (the "blessing" of the early Local Church movement), is because you are "bound by what you see". There's a disconnect there. First of all, you seem to be equating faith in the LC system to faith in the basic tenets of Christianity. That is just like a Catholic (for example) equating Catholic dogma to basic faith in Christ. It nearly suggests that disbelief in one is equal to disbelief in the other. I hope you did not mean to say that. Secondly, you're being "bound by what you see" would lead me to ask "where else have you looked?". It seems to me that if you really think that God blessed the LC, and then later left it, that you would be better off seeking Him wherever He is now... because if you think He's still in the LC, then you have to ask why you aren't. He is a God of the living, not the dead - and He is still very much active on this Earth today; if not in the Local Church. |
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02-11-2013, 06:55 PM
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#39 | ||||
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Re: Up from Babylon
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Witness Lee and his ministry was indeed the basis of oneness in the LC system in the 1960s and 1970s. The ground of locality doctrine was then as it is today a facade. When the elders and coworkers signed the letter in 1986 declaring that Witness Lee was indispensable to their oneness this was merely stating the obvious that had existed for over 2 decades already. Quote:
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Of course I don't think you're purposely lying so the only other 2 alternatives that I could think of is that you are ignorant of the facts or are narrow minded and refuse to accept the idea that any other church in the 1960s and 1970s in the US could be blessed except the LC system. That's how I came up with narrow minded! |
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02-11-2013, 08:41 PM
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#40 |
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
AW, It is quite interesting the black curtain you have drawn over the early American scene on the other thread. I haven't read everything over there, but I did contact Priestly Scribe who is now trying to salvage the toll taken on our concepts of an early blessed America. When was that time of blessing? is now a good question, to me anyway, though I won’t be commenting past the little bit here.
I have listened to books on tape of biographies on John Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, and Washington, and listened to the book, Mayflower, just last year on the astonishing facts of history regarding the Indian removal operation in very early America, that somehow evaded detection through our school book learning. You have had much more exposure to the negative side of early America, so when we need to draw the black curtain and show what the landscape really was, then we need someone capable of drawing it. If that is you, my only wondering right now is what you may be missing. You have the knowledge but do you have God's thought and what is significant to him about America and its roots on a positive side. In other words, is He looking past your knowledge to something He sees. I am just asking and that is where I am at with you, respecting, actually, your straight talk on the subject and other subjects you have addressed. I myself have drawn a huge black curtain over the Local Church landscape from 1974 till present and have seen a much different history from the sixties and early seventies to point people to, with deep respect for what the Lord had done with those standing on a ground of oneness in this country during that period. (refer to www.lordsrecovery.us I am not pointing to negative things during this period, because that is not worth doing. You would sully the picture needlessly. No black curtain, brother, needs to be drawn here. But learning about the testimony gained in local churches from the 1920s to January 1974 concerning the recovery of Christ as life for the building up of the church; the recovery of a proper church administration; the recovery of many Bible truths on Christ and His counterpart, the church, should be in the reader's best interest to obtain. You and others have all the knowledge of Witness Lee's sins, faults, or perceived sins and faults and failings, during this time, and therefore cancel out what Don Rutledge, who was close to the scene, has set forth as significant history to report, which regards blessing during a certain era – the sixties and early seventies; and movement men in the next era, with the LC drive off the ground of unity and blessing, which began in January 1974, and is going strong today. You can go ahead and point out that the Lord was doing other things also in other places. Don Rutledge also spoke of this in his two chapters of church history, an unfinished work. I am with the view that I feel is of significance to report on this forum, and put onto a website as a memorial. www.lordsrecovery.us www.lordsrecovery.us |
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02-11-2013, 09:08 PM
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#41 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Re: Up from Babylon
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As for the ground of locality doctrine, when the objective is to come under a ministries fellowship; the impact is lost. |
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02-12-2013, 01:21 PM
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#42 | |
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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If you want to do LC system history that way well OK but I don't and neither do a lot of other people because we know otherwise. |
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02-12-2013, 08:11 PM
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#43 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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What led Witness Lee to North America? 1. Was it something divine? 2. Was it the World's Fair of 1962? 3. Was it due to the situations in Taiwan and Philippines being unreceptive to Witness Lee, he had to go somewhere for his ministry to be received? |
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02-12-2013, 08:25 PM
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#44 | |
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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I believe that people who “know otherwise" than Don Rutledge has reported are thinking too much, not applying themselves to the discerning of times and seasons. That is to say, such ones don’t know as they ought to know. They do not balance their contributions on the forum with "the good and bad existing simultaneously along the time line." Their balance weighs heavily on the negative side; blinded, it seems, by what they know. Have you read Don’s fellowship on local church history, and how he, with love, reported the pertinent things, the developments, the inclinations of heart in his brothers that later became more clearly manifested? He put matters into perspective as a father and mother might, overseeing the history, carefully, in heart; and with discernment of the meaning and worth publicly of what he was sharing. Witness Lee was his friend and loved Don; he personally was a help and encouragement to him. In reporting the truth about him, Don was honest, yet respectful concerning brother Lee; and also loving. This is not the case with those “who know otherwise”, in near total disregard of Witness Lee. John Ingalls, by the way, when I interviewed him in 2001, sitting in the LR of his home he spoke in the tenderest manner of Witness Lee. I then spent 5 hours with Bill and Barbara Mallon and he was exceedingly soft also. Both brothers, plus Al Knoch, were like this, but fully bewildered that the brother who brought such light and life to them could be the same one manifest to them in the late eighties. Don's Fellowship http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...DonBookch1.pdf http://www.makingstraightthewayofthe...ChapterTwo.pdf Steve Isitt 2-13, 2013 The Philippines |
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02-13-2013, 07:14 AM
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#45 | |
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Location: DFW area
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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Do you not recall that the two portions that you give are but the beginning of a much longer history that has yet to be completed? Do you recall that he stated (in the forum, not in the chapters) that he was giving the view from what he remembered and thought during the time being reported? In other words, he indicated that as things either changed, or became known later, that would be the place at which it would be entered. So using Don's unfortunately halted history as evidence of how it should be done is misguided. He chose a manner to report in those chapters. But in his posts, he had more to say. Still only from what he now knew and not just repeating what others had since reported. His way is not "the way to do it." Neither is it a bad way. And if the goal was to reach those who had simply let the long cascade of hiccups be "covered" like Noah in the tent, it is a reasonable approach. Agree with the view of the times. But as time moves forward, reveal some of the behind-the-scenes things that should have raised eyebrows but did not because it was hidden. Eventually reveal the truths concerning things that were behind so many of those sudden "turns" that were blamed for casting so many off at different times. It is a truthful account. But it is also a truthful account to discover that what we could think are changes starting in the mid 70s are really just more of the same going back to the 40s. With the truth being that the same man was always there, trying to make money and letting churches bail him out when he failed, but constantly bringing words of honey to entice their ears so they won't just turn on him. You think we are just throwing stones at a prophet of God — a true apostle. But there is evidence that before he left mainland China we has already well down a path of corruption. Before he rose to the lead, he was likely already disqualified. That makes his voice that of a wolf. Of a charlatan. It really doesn't matter if some of what he mixed in was OK, or even pretty good. Oddly, the things that so many think are his best stuff are the most skewed and unsupported. But he has to many of us fooled. We like his view of things. Maybe we don't like rose-colored glasses. But we like coke-bottle glasses. We like looking through the eyes of the little man who taught us that elders cannot be challenged. That sexual immorality should be covered at the expense of righteous men. That is the true character of the man that so many thought of as the acting god. I can't conceive of how it is that you want back into that fellowship.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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02-13-2013, 07:40 AM
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#46 | ||
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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So now Don Rutledge's report is the official history of the LC system? That's a decision you have made? But...only when it's convenient for you to do so right? As you indicated in another thread your position is that the LC system was blessed in the 1960s and 1970s because of their ground of locality doctrine. I pointed out the glaring flaw in this view i.e. other churches were blessed in the 1960s and 1970s who did not espouse the ground of locality. Here is what you wrote: "You can go ahead and point out that the Lord was doing other things also in other places. Don Rutledge also spoke of this in his two chapters of church history, an unfinished work. I am with the view that I feel is of significance to report on this forum, and put onto a website as a memorial." Indiana again I say I really don't care how you do LC system history and you can even try your level best to get others to follow along and do it your way and those who refuse you can label as "not knowing as we ought to know" or any other term you want to use. You can even call me a leper if you like! |
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02-13-2013, 08:32 AM
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#47 | |
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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In 1952 Stephen Kaung moved to NYC and began to meet with the Local Church there that had been established by Chinese immigrants. ( I point this out because it was neither Stephen Kaung nor Witness Lee that "brought the recovery" to America.) In 1958 Witness Lee as part of a longer trip went through LA and visited a church associated with Austin-Sparks. In 1959 Samuel Chang moved from Hong Kong to LA and began meeting with that church. Witness Lee also visited LA and met with some from that church in 1960 while passing through on a longer trip. In the Spring of 1962 some from that church decided to start The Church in Los Angeles and held meetings in Samuel Chang's home. (Witness Lee did not start it.) During that year Witness Lee was at the World's Fair in Seattle with his son Tim. But his efforts failed there and he therefore owed a lot of money to disgruntled investors and lenders back in the Far East. He already had his return plane ticket and events scheduled but he couldn't go back so he said the Lord told him to stay in US for His recovery. He canceled his ticket and the events in the Far East and stayed in LA. Let's think about that. A 56 year old man with a family and work to do is told by God to stay in LA and meet with a handful of people for His recovery? Not go home and take care of your responsibilities and face the music and clean things up and then I may down the road lead you to move to LA? What sounds more like God's speaking and leading? |
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02-13-2013, 04:45 PM
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#48 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: Bulletin Board
Steve sent me an email about this thread and asked me specifically to join the discussion.
It seems the thread is about a number of teachings that Steve learned in the LRC that are good teachings. I also am thankful for these teachings. I do not like the paragraph that compares WL to David, I think those kind of judgments are inflammatory and are better made by the Lord Jesus. Perhaps if I share some personal experiences it might help. Igzy is focused on those people who are stuck in limbo in trying to decide to leave the LRC or not to leave. There are also those that had positive experiences in the LRC and cannot figure out what to make of those experiences in the light of the fuller picture of who WL really was. Perhaps this experience might help them. I was on a Pee Wee football team. I think it was when I was in sixth and seventh grade. We went undefeated for both years. We flew to Florida and Texas to play bowl games. We were told that we were “National Champions” both years, but that calculation is based on GPA and other strange calculations like how much time our 3rd string played. About four years later this coach was accused of molesting kids on the football team. It was front page news and I was outraged. I went to some of the other players from my old team to find out how we should respond to this slander about our coach. They confirmed in private that he was a child molestor. This was devastating to me. But then my father told me something I have never forgotten. He said “he was a good coach”. He did not mean that this guy should be coaching, or that he shouldn’t be locked up, what he meant was that all the things that made us a good team were a result of good coaching. Yes he belonged in jail, but that doesn’t mean you can’t walk away with a lot of good lessons. In hindsight we were a very well coached team, and the coach was a child molestor. Both things were true. For some reason the “ground of the church” doctrine is a lightening rod on this forum. I based my decision to leave the LRC on this doctrine. I visited another congregation and realized they were much more in line with the concept of embracing all genuine believers in the city than the LRC was. I agree that the application of this teaching in the LRC is divisive and arrogant, which Igzy has stated. However, I find plenty of NT justification to say that any congregation meeting as the church in a city should be open to and embrace every genuine believer in that city, and that principle is the “ground of the church”. I have concluded that a “single eldership” in a city is not practical and have discarded that concept. As long as every believer in a city accepts the 7 ones in Ephesians (One God, one Lord, etc.) then that is sufficient for me. And this brings me to the idea that Steve wants to reform the LRC. To me it is abundantly clear that there are many things that the LRC must repent of. They have become very divisive, perhaps the most divisive Christian group that I am familiar with. Considering the emphasis on “oneness” and condemnation of “division” in their teachings this is extremely hypocritical. If they receive mercy from the Lord to see they are blind, and naked and poor then perhaps they will repent. Telling them that WL, like David, was a man after God’s heart, is in my opinion, not an effective path towards repentance. But what is made very clear on this forum is that everyone associated with the LRC is painted with the same brush as WL. It is not possible to be in the LRC for any length of time without having a crisis of conscience. I only met Phillip Lee once, but I knew immediately that he was a lascivious man of flesh that had no business being involved in a spiritual ministry. This caused me to question RG’s judgment (because he seemed blind to what was very obvious) and WL’s judgment. When I got the report of John Ingall’s leaving the LRC I knew something smelled rotten. Finally when I saw that the church in NYC was a divisive sect and did not embrace every believer in the city I felt free to walk away. I am reminded of the verse “your righteousness is as filthy rags”. When you try to balance out the bad with the good it is like mopping up a filthy mess with rags. You are left with “filthy rags”. I am pretty sure that the word here is actually more specific, I think it means “menstrous rags”, so this filth refers to blood. Being a “good coach” does not compensate for being a child molestor. Being a good Bible teacher doesn’t compensate for the sins you have done. Until the LRC sees this they are going to continue to be blind, and poor, and naked. |
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02-13-2013, 07:37 PM
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#49 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: Bulletin Board
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Just like some of us were, many in the LC's are just ignorant of what the "coach" in Anaheim was doing. Hence, they may have many wonderful experiences with the rest of the team, and like you said, "walk away with a lot of good lessons."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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02-13-2013, 08:16 PM
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#50 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Re: Bulletin Board
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02-13-2013, 08:41 PM
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#51 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Re: Up from Babylon
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02-13-2013, 10:58 PM
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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Carol Garza
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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02-14-2013, 07:16 AM
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#53 | |
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Posts: 7,105
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. If we use this criteria does he really appear to be that "anointed"? 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons… 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? Witness Lee appeared to be "rich" in the spiritual realm, cloaking himself with his relationship with Watchman Nee. This attitude of who was spiritual, who had "spiritual authority" who had "weight" was prevalent in the LRC. • How can seemingly serious and thoughtful Christians be so deceived by someone you clearly see as a false teacher? Know this, the trying of your faith works patience. James 1:3 God is perfecting us, and this experience is in line with His plan. James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. We would not have fallen into this trap if we were not enticed to be "in the group", "the Lord's elite army", etc. Enticed by our own lust. James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Far too many in the LRC are merely hearers of the word, not doers. You recently chided Steve for not being able to start home meetings with WL's ministry. Why don't you share some more on your success in starting home meetings and what you have done. • Why would God seemingly bless the ministry of a false teacher? Why confuse followers in that way? If any man lacks wisdom let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5 God didn't "confuse" followers. We lacked wisdom. God is ready and able to answer your prayer for wisdom. James 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. 5:4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. You have to look at the "seeming blessing" in the light of eternity. This ministry should be a warning to all that we live and walk in the light of eternity. James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. Look at the book of Hebrews chapter 11, why were the righteous seemingly "cursed"? What about Job? God's view is eternity. • What does one do with the truly innovative teachings of a false teacher? James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? WL boasted of faith, great faith, but when you examine his works they seem to be more and more threadbare and moth eaten. James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Any truly "innovative" teaching is simply a revelation of the word of God. The gift came from God, not WL. Let the Lord judge if he was faithful to bring this gift to God's people. What does a former follower do with those teachings that he felt blessed him and he even treasured when he finally concludes there were elements of a false teacher in the source? James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. This is what we should do with our experience in the LRC. |
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02-14-2013, 10:39 AM
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#54 |
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Posts: 713
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
I have been trying to get back to answer questions. What I have responded to took many hours, although it might not appear so. I have been sick(not terribly) and also weak, not eating much, (which is how I got sick) and have been a bit too much on edge in what I have said; but I have wanted to continue with answering questions, as these of yours, Igzy, about Witness Lee's teachings, which I might still be able to get to.
• MOTA -- Made him unaccountable. [i.e., minister of the age, ed.] • Extreme views of spiritual authority -- led to abuse and control. • Extreme view of separation from "the world" -- isolated people, making them vulnerable to suggestion. Closed door on legitimate options and leading. • Belief in one organizationally unified eldership per city to whom all should submit. -- More oppression and closing the door on reform and fresh starts. • Declaring his movement the unique move of God -- Again, locking in a following and limiting options. • Becoming God -- Confuses one's own nature with God himself. I had started this thread, saying, “There has been much discussion concerning Witness Lee’s worth as a teacher.” Later, I brought up his ground of oneness teaching. I said, “I wonder, Igzy, why you did not refer to my points in post #19, which were in response to the pertinent forum questions: 1) Why there was a blessing of the Spirit in the early days of the church life; and 2) What effect Witness Lee had on that blessing in the local churches in those days. I continued, "References by me in #19 to the ground of oneness were concerning the early church life in America; not current day Local Church life on a path of deviation from the earlier days. Your posts distracted people from my reference point to thoughts of current day LC misuse of the teaching of the ground; John Myer's thoughts about the ground; and a bit of mockery of me, with advice that I should try to move forward and not be in a pining mode for the past. Do you want to address the points I made? Or evade them?" _end OBW shared something to which you responded, “I know OBW has offered that the source of Recovery blessing was not Lee, but the commitment of the members. That is plausible. But it doesn't explain why the blessing often seemed strongest when we were sitting at the feet of Lee. Can anyone explain?” Then I explained. And, AW responded, "It seems to me that Indiana is trying to tie the "Lord's blessing" in the early years of the LC system in America to the ground of locality. – AW “This is right AW. I was tying the blessing to the ground of oneness taught by Nee and Lee and practiced in the 60s and early 70s in America. This I shared in response to the question on the forum 1) Why there was a blessing of the Spirit in the early days of the church life. "I began with explaining the history, saying, "the American brothers were in the process of a recovery that began with Watchman Nee in China when he was a student seeking the truth of the proper ground for coming together as Christians. He and other young brothers could not find scriptural ground for the denominations in their city and began to meet on the ground that they were one with every true believer in the city. They were compelled by their conscience that they could not meet in any other way." Q. Was this a correct determination of these brothers before their Lord? If so, should our position be any different today? "Witness Lee a few years later joined them, although he had a successful work going on in Northern China. He could see that blessing was with Nee and his ministry from reports he had heard and the monthly publication by Nee he read, called, The Christian. He was convicted by the truth he found in Nee’s ministry, including meeting on a proper ground of oneness." Q. Do you agree that both Nee and Lee met on the ground that "we are one with all true believers in our city" (in early 1930s). Was this ground upon which they met right, and scriptural? That is, were they right to say there is no ground given in the Bible for denominations, I said, "I believe their positioning was proper and right with God's heart; but it can only be carried out if in attitude they remain inclusive of others as was these brothers intention in the beginning. And, principally, those in the 60s and early 70s in the lc met on such a ground and blessing came to them in much more abundance than if they had not been meeting on a ground of oneness. Seeking believers were being added to the churches around the country and claiming "we're home!", and this was due to the New Testament reality of coming up from Babylon to Jerusalem, "to the place which the Lord thy God has chosen." Will you come back to this, Igzy, and answer clearly before those members you are concerned about; and before forum members; and before God and all others looking in if you believe these brothers’ took an appropriate stand in their city. This is important for you as an administrator of this forum to state if you concede that this was the right stand. I mean without evasiveness, Igzy; and, if you believe they took the correct stand that God could bless, should a different stand be taken today? Was the principle right? without concerns and references for the problematic side of taking such a stand. You were also evasive or didn't touch this important question What effect did Witness Lee have on that blessing in the local churches in those days? I shared about this and numbered the paragraphs. You skipped right over these points and later dismissed both Nee and Lee outright as to the impact they had in the local churches and the blessing the churches received under their care and oversight. 2. When Lee came to the U. S., he brought three decades of experience with him, two decades under Nee. He saw much in God’s word; had valuable church life experience; and developed his own ministry. These brothers, Nee and Lee, were outside of organized religion and God blessed them to meet as one on a ground of oneness in a city. God did not agree either with denominations that slice up the Body of Christ into different sections, and pastors shaking hands over the fence. 3. When Witness Lee met up with seekers of the Lord in the U. S., it was he who had the weighty background, and they asked him to meet with them. He naturally became their leader and his ministry began to be released. Regardless of who he learned from, he saw things spiritually in the Bible and could minister them with profound effect among the seeking ones who were his recipients in the early days of the church life in America. 4. There were no pews with a pastor but every saint could function and was encouraged to speak. Like Moses, Lee desired that “you all would prophesy (speak forth Christ).” What a recovery! What a tremendous help to all the churches as they grew and spread around the country, and what a contrast with what we still see today in the best of meeting places, with only a paid pastor doing the speaking. (It has been 12 years since I met in the Local Churches and I have been to many other gatherings of believers. None had access to the weightiness of ministry and decades of experience in their lineage to help usher them into a church life as the local churches did in the U. S. when Witness Lee arrived.) 5. I think Witness Lee had much to do with the harmony among the churches, through conferences, fellowship with leaders, publications, and by his own godly example, as Igzy alluded to. He instilled confidence for a saint’s moving ahead in the local churches, and also hope for the churches and their future, which served to stabilize the churches. His close relationship with Nee for about two decades was a big factor for the confidence and hope the saints had. In other words, the local churches in the U. S. had a history and lineage from China and Taiwan to immediately benefit them and receive blessing of the Spirit from, especially with Lee here with them. Indeed, when they moved to Los Angeles to be near him from around the country, revival came. It came from the lineage; the product of that lineage, Witness Lee; and their heart to meet on a ground of oneness with other believers. 6. Songs poured out of the saints as they were being built up in their localities year after year. They made the songs up themselves from their experience and enjoyment of Christ, and the word and ministry they were blessed to be under. The reason Ohio lost his desire for cigarettes is that he was transferred, solidly, into another realm with Christ as his life and God’s house as his home and dwelling place. It was a place of absolute separation from the world and habitation with God. “They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.” (Ps. 36:8) 7. We were inspired by Old Testament exhortation from Nehemiah to “rise up and build.” God’s people received this call to rise up, to go up, and build, or rebuild, the temple. There was every indication that we were exactly what we were told we were and that we were in a recovery of the truth of God’s word, experience of Christ as our life, and in a church of God’s glory, meeting on a proper ground of oneness. For there, on the proper ground, “the Lord commanded the blessing, even life forevermore.” (Ps. 133) 8. And we had the leadership to open up the way for us. I think Witness Lee and the ground of oneness teaching and practice he brought to the U. S. were key to the amount of blessing of the Spirit received in the local churches. Of course, his teaching on the human spirit and enjoying Christ as our life for the building up of the church were crucial to our experience of the blessing of the Spirit in those days. Many songs came out concerning these experiences, teachings, and practices and filled the supplement pages. 9. But first, we needed to come out of the divisions to be on the right ground for meeting, and for blessing. "The rest of it--such as that Nee and Lee were the bellwethers of "The Lords's Recovery," or that God was vindicating the local ground, or that everything else was Babylon from which we were to go up, go up, etc-- is really just extreme speculation. You can believe it if you want, but there is absolutely no reason to expect anyone else to." _Igzy No reason, Igzy? There is plenty of reason and the witness in my spirit and in the spirit of many others, and, I believe, deep in you. |
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02-14-2013, 11:52 AM
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#55 | |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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So what you're asking is that we all pretend that the last 30 or 40 years of Local Church history NEVER HAPPENED? Sorry, but many of us can't do this my brother. I can't do this for the sake of my conscience. I can't do this for the sake of the truth. I can't do this for the sake of the younger ones and for any who are considering joining the Local Church movement. So you, brother Steve, and others may want to paint the rosy picture. You may want to tell everybody about the good times in the good ole days. If you feel this is your calling then you are free to do so. There is a place for you and others who feel this way on the forum. But for me (and many others here) we feel a different calling. I myself experienced many of the "positive" things you write about. I received lots of teaching, most of which I thought was biblical at the time. I learned a lot of practices, most of which I thought were healthy and biblical at the time. Now I have been out of the LC movement for many years. I've come to know, in my heart AND in my mind, that many of these teachings and practices were neither healthy nor biblical. Many I now view as extremely unhealthy and some teachings even heretical.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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02-14-2013, 02:08 PM
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#56 | |
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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In other words, UntoHim, I am asking, Was the principle right? Can you answer this? There is no need to put before the onlookers, in referring to me: “So what you're asking is that we all pretend that the last 30 or 40 years of Local Church history NEVER HAPPENED? Sorry, but many of us can't do this my brother. I can't do this for the sake of my conscience. I can't do this for the sake of the truth. I can't do this for the sake of the younger ones and for any who are considering joining the Local Church movement.” And, what does this mean, UntoHim? And, what are you saying about me, publicly? You don’t hear what I am actually saying, and so invent things. You have had on the forum, intermittently, a loud, offensive, and careless mouth, as has Igzy. You don’t know how much harm the two of you have done over the years to current and former members and seekers of truth with your abusive, sarcastic speech and disregard for the truths they uphold. And, disregard of the positive aspects of the Local Churches and their history that you overturn on your forum, with glee. You are the ones confusing people, because you take their appreciation of the positive things and destroy them. You cannot even handle the ground of oneness question intelligently. I am handling it with sensitivity to the principle of the teaching. You brothers just come in and blow it up, and don’t care what the onlookers think who are hurt by your speech against this fellowship and other truths they adhere to. UntoHim, there are many attributions made on this forum applied to me that are not fitting that I hope to get to and address. You and others misrepresent me habitually, and now AW is following suit. And, I want to get to him also. I don't know how closely you read what I write; you certainly don't refer to points well that I have made, or defend your position well. Maybe due to time restraints you don’t take much time. In your responses to me on the forum you are superficial and many times erroneous. Did you read thoughtfully this latest post of mine? Or just wing thru it and throw something up there to automatically refute me publicly, skating on the surface as you go through your 3 minute post. I don't think it is possible that you read this or any post I have made on this thread with care. Am I right? I spent 3 hours on this post. Did you spend even 3 minutes to read it? I also spent 8 hours on another. And, here is what you said in response to that post #19. At least you got to the two essential questions I had wanted answered. But again, your post was half-hearted and superficial, to say the least. There is no depth to your speaking, no breadth, no interest – you just talk and put up something to dismiss me. ________________________________________ Originally Posted by Indiana I wonder, Igzy, why you did not refer to my points in post #19, which were in response to the pertinent forum questions: 1) Why was there a blessing of the Spirit in the early days of the church life? UNTOHIM answered: "There is always a measure of blessings when "two or three are gathered in my name". But God's blessing does not necessarily signify God's approval. God's approval can only come with the knowledge of and continuation in the Truth. The original disciples and apostles experienced a great deal of blessing while the Lord Jesus was among them, but the Lord did NOT pray to the Father to "bless" them - he prayed that they would know the TRUTH, and be guided into all TRUTH. The blessing they received did not help them when the trials came...When the Shepard was persecuted all the blessed sheep scattered. It was only when the Spirit of Truth came to dwell in them did they go and boldly proclaim the Gospel. "So what is the true measure of God's blessing among a group of Christians? Is it numbers? Well if so the Local Church of Witness Lee has fallen woefully short. There are a number single location "megachurches" that have weekly attendance with larger numbers than the Local Church has in all it's USA locations put together. Even in the "heyday" of Elden Hall, the Local Church was not particularly blessed with impressive numbers. "Is the true measure how long, loud or raucous the meetings are? Is it the enthusiasm, dedication or devoutness of the members? The Local Church was hardly alone in these things. Quote of my 2nd question in UNTOHIM's post: 2) "What effect did Witness Lee have on that blessing in the local churches in those days. References by me in #19 to the ground of oneness were concerning the early church life in America; not current day Local Church life on a path of deviation from the earlier days." UNTOHIM answered, “Not much to say here except to challenge you to consider this - What effect did Witness Lee have on the Local Church movement for the 25 or so years after Elden Hall? These 25 years make up about 70% of Lee's time here in America. Sorry but "selective memory" does not work here in the information age. This is the real world, not a Local Church conference meeting where we all just shout out AMEN! to everything.” I wasn’t asking about “25 or so years after Elden Hall.” I have done that already more than anyone. Why are you talking about it? References by me in #19 to the ground of oneness were concerning the early church life in America; not current day Local Church life on a path of deviation from the earlier days. |
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02-14-2013, 03:27 PM
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#57 |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,333
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Steve,
I'm very sorry you are under the weather. I'm calling on all our members and lurkers to pray for Steve. Give yourself time to heal. I hope you are feeling better soon. I'm busy at work right now. I will address your questions as soon. But will you give me assurance you will answer my direct questions if I answer yours? (Luke 20:2-8) Get well soon, Igzy |
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02-14-2013, 05:33 PM
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#58 | |
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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02-14-2013, 07:51 PM
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Posts: 3,824
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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02-14-2013, 10:05 PM
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Location: USA
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Steve,
You sound uncharacteristically peevish. I say get some rest, get well and things will seem better in the morning. You feel you are being misunderstood and misinterpreted? Well, welcome to the world of internet forums, where misunderstanding is a way of life. Let me try to make things simple. I believe I've already answered your questions. But I'll say what I think again. The blessings of the early days of the Recovery in America was, IMHO, not on the local ground principle, but rather on the desire for oneness. These are different things, and the difference is subtle, but important. (There were other factors: sincere, focused devotion to God, unusual amounts of Bible reading, and so forth.) If you want to give credit to the local ground principle, that's your business. I don't buy it. I don't believe the NT teaches it. The NT clearly teaches oneness. It never ties oneness directly to the local ground in a clear way. Now, there is nothing wrong with believing that there is one church in a city. There is scriptural basis for that. But that church does not have to have one organized leadership group, what you call eldership. The Bible shows examples of city churches, and home churches, and it never makes clear that the home churches are the city churches. To believe they are one in the same is a leap of interpretation that the Bible doesn't support. You might want to believe they are the same, but you can't use the Bible to support that belief, because the verses aren't there to support it. So to answer your question clearly enough, I hope, here's what I believe: The believers in the early days of the LC movement in America were right in principle to be for oneness. But they were not right in principle to believe oneness meant believers in a city had to be organized under one eldership and call themselves "the church in such-and-such." Oneness is a much more important principle than locality. If you take care of oneness, locality will take care of itself. But again to take care of oneness does not mean one eldership. You talked that everybody needed to come out of divisions and get on the right ground. In the first place, you can be on the so-called right ground (if you are talking about locality) and still be divisive, and you can be in what you would call a division and be taking care of oneness. So I do not accept your prescription. Second question: How much was Witness Lee a factor in the blessing of the LC movement in the early days? My answer. I don't know. I think he had some good things going about him and contributed. I know he at times was filled with the Spirit. I take exception with people who flat call him a false prophet, because I don't really know what that is and it makes him sound like he was barely a Christian. But he did teach some things that were wrong. No one's perfect. My questions about Lee recently were rhetorical. I wanted people to think about them. I didn't mean to imply that they had to come to a certain conclusion. But whatever Lee was, he's gone now. We have to deal with the here and now. What is the way to go on? I am not placing my hope on fixing the Recovery. If you want to dedicate you life to that, that's your business. But I'm here to help people realize that's not the only way to go on. Everything about you seems to disagree with that, and that's fundamentally how we differ. If you want to understand me, Steve, it's really simple. I have very little respect for any person or movement that says people have to follow him or be in their group to go on with God in a full way. I just have no respect for that. Share all the good things about Lee you want. But don't expect me or anyone else to have to follow him or the movement he started. Neither he nor they have a monopoly on anything, and it's very sad for you if you think they do or if you think you need to go around acting like they do. Still praying for your health. Hope you get better soon. Igzy |
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02-15-2013, 08:11 PM
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#61 |
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Posts: 713
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
Always Learning,
I have been writing in response to Why there was such a blessing in the local churches in the U. S. pre-1974. And it was partly because people were coming out of denominations on their divisive grounds and coming up to Jerusalem to the proper ground - to the place which the Lord your God shall choose to put His name there. I say, when that position was taken by Nee and brothers in China the word of God opened more to them. What the saints in America inherited came out of Nee. Lee came out of Nee. New Testament ministry came out of Nee and Lee at a high level and with rich, full content in a stewardship to the saints of grace to bring them into a Christ-centered church life full of vision and purpose and function as members. The songs came out, the saints were rejoicing, and “we were home”. I am not denying that there was blessing elsewhere though they were not meeting as we were, “on the ground". All I was doing was answering the two questions, Why the blessing and Was Lee responsible for the blessing in any way? I was dealing with 1962 thru 1973. Don Rutledge saying that some blessing also occurred in other places does not cancel out my testimony or his. What remains to be shown is what is meant by the blessing received in the local churches and outside of them. Time does not allow most of us to go into such a study. But the question of what is meant by blessing would be answered and the difference in what is meant by blessing in the local churches and outside of them would be made exceedingly clear. Concessions 1. I could be wrong in some things I say, and that I have said lately. I should not get involved in so much talking. For example, I am not comfortable addressing the history from the Far East and from 1940s – 1960s type of thing when I haven’t been engaged in a study of the ins and outs of that period. 2. As far as “expertise”, if I have any, it is soundly in the corner of dealing with the blending brothers and Witness Lee in the late 80s turmoil. It took 2 years to write Deviating from the Path in the Lord’s Recovery, which was edited thoroughly 5 times by a Local Church brother, a long-time LC bookroom manager, who agrees with my writings and appeals to the brothers. 3. These rules that I heard about yesterday that I continually violate, or whatever, I do not have a handle on or want to be subject to. Do expectations on a Christian forum need to correspond to secular forum rules? Can Christians share their piece and be at peace that they don’t have to become subject to inordinate time and effort writing further? No response expected. 4. Twelve years ago I was let go by the LC leaders and in my travels and visits to other places, I have seen a lot of need for a ministry such as is found in the Local Churches. So I speak strongly about the LC ministry partly because of the experience I am under and the poverty I see. The need is great for a ministry that can “touch people, move them, and cause them to see.” –Watchman Nee There is some ministry that is helpful in ways that the ministry of Witness Lee could not help much with, as Terry and AW pointed out, and ZNP. This is true. A book I read lately, The Forgotten Commandment, by Paul Evans, is such a ministry on the absence of love and the lack of understanding of the command to love among Christians. He is giving seminars and has come here, and a pastor who I was visiting with another pastor gave me the book and they both had been thru the seminar. I never heard such fellowship in the LC and feel they and we, everyone, would profit from the book and a seminar where people are touched, problems are addressed, and love is exhibited and learned. The way I feel is that the LC needs some of these ministries or books we pick up on family or finances or relationships, or on the word (like from Charles Stanley), others; and that many Christians need the ministry that is so unveiling of God's eternal purpose that the LC have, enjoy, and profit from. Something else greatly needed in places I have been, whether in America or here in the Philippines, is songs and hymns, which are in abundance in the Local Churches, music that conveys Christ as life to be experienced and enjoyed by us, and about the church life that comes out from that Christ in our daily life and our attention to Him. Others might appreciate the music they have found outside of the Local Churches. This has not been my experience. Rather, I see a big need. |
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02-16-2013, 01:04 PM
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#62 | |
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Posts: 360
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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I don't accept your before and after scenario and neither do a lot of other people. In a previous post on this subject you mentioned: John Ingalls, Al Knoch and Bill Mallon. To my knowledge these men do not think the so called blessing left in 1974. If anything they think it left with the New Way "flow". I would suggest when the blessing came and went is a moving target that changes depending who you are talking to at the time. Furthermore I don't accept your cause and effect conclusion for two main reasons: 1. If you want to talk in terms of "blessing" other groups were being blessed that did not meet "on the ground" and 2. Witness Lee and his ministry was the ground of oneness in the LC system before and after 1974. Regardless of his dogma about the ground of locality doctrine he was very fast and loose in it's application when it suited his purposes. (And IMHO used it as a convenient excuse not to work with others as peers or mentors e.g. TAS who interestingly enough both Watchman Nee and Stephen Kaung could work with.) In any event I gave several concrete examples of backstage events that went on in the US prior to 1974 and you choose to ignore them and instead made ad hominem attacks on those "who know otherwise" i.e. who don't agree with you. But I will offer two more examples so if not you than at least other readers understand why I have this position: 1. Prior to 1974 there was a migration "flow". Many families moved out of LA and elsewhere to start LCs in different cities a/k/a "taking the ground". Soon thereafter there was a consolidation "flow" because several of these migrations were considered failures. Some families who couldn't move again were left behind with no LC any longer meeting "on the ground". So in effect Witness Lee said now there is an LC there and now there isn't going to be one anymore - playing with people's lives and the ground of locality doctrine. And he left these people who couldn't move with a dilemma: now that there is no more Jerusalem and we can't meet in Babylon what are we going to do? While they were wrestling with this conundrum Witness Lee had moved on to his next "flow"! 2. There was an LC started by some Chinese immigrants. The elders came from a LC in the Far East plus a local brother. They had been meeting for several years on the ground of locality. They sold Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, Stephen Kaung, TAS books, etc. They attended conferences with Witness Lee. They listened to reel-to-reel tapes of Witness Lee. They invited Witness Lee to visit them and minister - which he did several times. But the elders were not tied directly to Witness Lee. So Witness Lee decided to send from Elden Hall some people to migrate to this place and make one of them an elder who was beholden to him. Immediately upon arrival they caused a division because they didn't want to meet where the church was already meeting. When they couldn't get their own way they set up another LC "meeting on the ground" in that city. So now before 1974 there were two LCs in that city. Further they totally disrespected and undermined the existing eldership. At one time they visited one of these brothers in his home and before his family were so insulting he had to ask them to leave his house. Of course Witness Lee was fine with all of this and the LC his people from Elden set up was the one he recognized as the "true church" in that city. Do these kind of activities indicate some sort of great blessing prior to 1974 because of the ground of locality? I don't think so. But you can if you want! |
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02-16-2013, 05:28 PM
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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The "consolidation" flow was quite another matter. Note that it came out of that 1974 directive thrust upon all the leaders. I have talked at length with some who felt that "consolidation" was not the Lord's leading.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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02-18-2013, 02:32 PM
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#64 | ||
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Location: DFW area
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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The following would be a true statement: What the followers of Lee in America inherited came out of Nee. And Lee came out of Nee. But the assertion that the "New Testament ministry came out of Nee and Lee . . ." is not supported by the studies I have done. Nee did not handle the Word of God well. In the few somewhat random books that I have opened to see what he wrote, I have almost consistently discovered that he would almost immediately start redefining things such that he created a premise for the rest of his book that was not actually supported by the words in the scripture that he used. For example, insisting that "power" means "authority." That "authority" can be substituted for "power" where it is found in the verses he targets, and so a pattern of authority is developed from verses that do not actually mention or imply authority. Based on this somewhat consistent pattern, I cannot agree that the Word was actually "opened" to Nee and Lee. They were not getting things out of the scripture. It would be more correct to say that Nee, then later Lee, would put into the scripture enough "changes" to reset "reality," then bring out of this revised word (no longer Word) and create what you and so many others call "the New Testament Ministry." Based on the scriptural nonsense out of which Nee and Lee taught, we were lead to believe that there was a "ground" that had something to do with political divisions, most specifically city boundaries. And discovering that "rule" was said to be discovering Jerusalem. It is fantasy. You believe it because you want to believe it. Your believe it because it makes you into a special Christian. No matter how many times we referred to ourselves as "just a little brother (or sister)" inside we considered ourselves quite special because we were "in Jerusalem" while all those other Christians were "back in Babylon" (another misreading of scripture by Nee and Lee). Until you are willing to actually look at the underpinnings of the garbage teachings that gave us those feelings of superiority, you will continue to cling to a lie. And while Nee and Lee may not have set out to lie to us, Satan did and he used Nee and Lee.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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02-19-2013, 08:06 AM
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#65 | |
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Location: DFW area
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Re: Bulletin Board
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As for your story, I like it. It does portray a complicated reality. And in the world, reality is complicated. People who are advocates for important causes often have other issues that would disqualify them from other things. As part of the American trend in tolerance, we would tolerate his/her advocacy of one cause even though disqualified for another. But in the Christian realm, things that might seem unrelated are a basis for disqualification from many other things. And among those are any kind of Christian leadership. It doesn't matter how much of a teacher's words are wholesome, if they are not qualified to teach (among those that should be refused, among other statements made in scripture) then they are not to be heard. The problem with this kind of story is not the story itself. It is that it is given as evidence that it is OK to be double-minded in the Christian realm. It is not OK to cheat your followers, make bold lies to discredit those who could expose your errors, but we can still get great benefit from your teaching. At least once, Paul essentially said that this was not correct. In at least one case he dismissed certain teachers without reference to what it was they were teaching. Based on other aspects of their personal life and the manner of leading, they were disqualified. This story, though thought provoking, does not change the underlying principle. It tugs at our hearts. But it does not excuse Lee or Nee. It is provided as a basis for dismissing the scriptural mandate for a softer, kinder, more American way.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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02-19-2013, 05:45 PM
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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But what does Steve Isitt write in his own words as found in his work on the hidden history in the recovery? "In the summer of 1965, Brother Lee came back to Taipei. He decided to get rid of those coworkers who disagreed with him. Consequently, there were thousands of people who left the church. At that time almost 30% of the regular members left, a most serious situation being that about 80-90% of the young members who were college students left the church. Brother Lee’s action in 1965 has been referred to as a “cleansing massacre” to get the church to line up with him only...In other matters in the Far East, toward the end of the 1950’s co-workers in Hong Kong, the Philippines, Singapore, and Malaysia had serious differences with Brother Lee because of the absolute authority he exercised, which was hard for them to take. Everything was dictated by him, and he would not take any input from others." Steve knows quite well from his own research things that were going on in the LC system prior to 1974 and I have given many more examples as well. Quote:
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02-26-2013, 11:19 PM
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Re: Up from Babylon
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As to the matter of gay marriage, Leviticus is quite clear on homosexuality, in-breeding, etc. No Steve, it is not about being narrow-minded, but a product of faith. The best comparison I could think of would be for a Jew or Muslim to drop their position on pork, or any other animal considered unclean to eat. |
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02-27-2013, 06:12 AM
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#68 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: Up from Babylon
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05-27-2015, 07:21 PM
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#69 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,545
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Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible
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__________________
The Church in Los Angeles 1971-1972 Phoenix 1972-1973 Albuquerque 1973-1975 Anaheim 1976-1979 San Bernardino 1979-1986 Bellevue 1993-2000 Renton 2009-2011 |
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10-05-2024, 09:52 AM
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#70 | |
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MEMBER
Join Date: Sep 2024
Posts: 41
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Re: Up from Babylon
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may I pick up this one, even though this great debate is older? Because the last sentence captures what I feel myself. There can be no stable “ground of oneness” as long as our human oneness needs it’s own ground. Would you agree? Indiana may be mistaken above in attributing the term to Watchman Nee, it's certainly not in „Rethinking our Work“ from 1937. It's probably more of a typical case where Lee, who uses the term, goes beyond Nee and things start to loose balance. (I personally believe that Nee valued Lee less for his theological talent than for his organizational one). However, I do wonder: if there is a „proper gound“, which is Christ, if the proper ground is the gospel, the gospel of reconciliation and of restoration of our unity with God - is it then possible that we have no unity and still stand on proper ground?? Maybe self-deception is the problem? I also agree with Cal’s: „Trying to use locality to enforce oneness is like trying to use a rooster to make the sun rise.“ And that any group with the attitude “we have the right stand, you don't” is not solving the problem of lack of unity, but rather makes it worse. But how about we say, “As long as we live apart from each other, we ALL miss the right stand.” In Watchman Nee’s very last message from 1951 we find thoughts along these lines. And I quote him from 1934: „Due to the outward ruinous appearance of the Church today, however, the division among God’s people is so serious that no group of believers — including ourselves — can freely call itself the local assembly.” Last edited by PeterG; 10-05-2024 at 07:39 PM. |
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