Local Church Interactions

[ToGodAlone]

Since most of you are/were in the LRC, I was wondering if I could ask about how you interacted with non-LRC Christians while you were in the LRC and how that has changed if/when you left. From my observations and such, it would seem that the LRC frowned upon other Christians since they used the terms "fallen Christianity" or "Babylon" or whatever else. However just because the church says something, doesn't mean everyone followed it strongly, right?

So enlighten me, how were you taught to interact with those in "Babylon?" How did you actually act around/with them? How did that change, or did it change?

I know a lot of you are strong opinioned about church structure and whatnot, but I'm not sure if that necessarily carries over to the actual members within.

Have at it.

[UntoHim]

Methinks your questions are somewhat rhetorical....but since you asked (for it)

In my observation things have changed for the better in this regard over the past 10 - 15 years. (Maybe since WL died in 97?)

Back in the heyday of the Local Church in the 1970s, members were much more "militant" towards other Christians. For example there was a march on a large seminary (Moody Bible Institute I believe) where the members carried placards with slogans such as "down with Babylon" and the like.

I know that back in the mid-70s the Local Church had a significant presence on one of the largest Junior Colleges in So.Calif (Orange Coast College) Not only were we uncooperative with other Christian groups (to say the least), there were times of ugly confrontations which were mostly initiated and/or inflamed by the Local Churchers. There is no doubt that some of these confrontations led to the perception of some that the LC was a cult of sorts.

Of course when one is constantly hearing negative things from the leader of your group (poor, poor Christianity, Judaism is satanic, Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless, etc, etc), then it does have an affect on one's attitude towards others. This negative attitude even extended to members of one's own immediate family who were Christians....even if they were the most devout and orthodox....it just didn't matter if they were not in the Local Church of Witness Lee...they were all to be considered lumped in with poor, poor Christianity.

As I said, I think this horrific attitude has softened a bit, but you can still see it clearly in the words and actions of the blended brothers and other longtime LC members. This is what I think is so harmful and even dangerous about the "Full-Time Training"....These negative stereotypes and attitudes are being instilled in a whole new generation of young people.

I have much to say about my experience since leaving the Local Church but it will have to wait for later.... I'm off to Babylon for the morning!

[Abounding]

My experience is more recent. In my locality definitely less militant. I felt that I was unable to fellowship with other believers because I already had all of the riches and they were poor. If another Christian was to share something with me, I would just smile and think how elementary. Don't I sound like a jerk. I guess I was pretty pompous. As soon as I left, I was amazed at how much I could see and enjoy others fellowship. I was definitely divided. I was taught that other believers were out of the flow of life. Anything anyone said that might not be in line with the ministry was of course out of the flow and wrong. I also didn't feel like it was healthy to fellowship with believers out of the ministry flow unless I was converting them. Any time spent with outside Christians was strictly to convert them. Although we would say otherwise our true intentions were to get them to join us. I know because we would also be praying for them at the prayer meeting that they would see the Church. This prevented any two way fellowship. I did not have any friends outside of the LC. That shows how much time I spent with other members of the body of Christ.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Abounding

I felt that I was unable to fellowship with other believers because I already had all of the riches and they were poor. If another Christian was to share something with me, I would just smile and think how elementary. Don't I sound like a jerk. I guess I was pretty pompous. As soon as I left, I was amazed at how much I could see and enjoy others fellowship. I was definitely divided. I was taught that other believers were out of the flow of life. Anything anyone said that might not be in line with the ministry was of course out of the flow and wrong. I also didn't feel like it was healthy to fellowship with believers out of the ministry flow unless I was converting them. Any time spent with outside Christians was strictly to convert them. Although we would say otherwise our true intentions were to get them to join us. I know because we would also be praying for them at the prayer meeting that they would see the Church. This prevented any two way fellowship.

I had types of experiences; as a churchkid and as an adult.
First as a church kid my high school years were 1983-1986. I was about an hour's drive geographically UntoHim referenced. Just wasn't my experience. Maybe the young people at that time were taught the Word and not the ministry. It was normal to invite friends to Sunday mornings, Saturday nights, and Lovefeasts.
As an adult I realized my behavior was much like Abounding. Poor in Christ and rich in pride. What contact there were with Christians outside the LRC was in context of the ministry. Did they see or not see the ministry? If they didn't see the ministry, don't waste your time. There was the impression only those meeting with the recovery were serious about the Lord. As far as saints in the recovery were concerned, those meeting outside the local churches only saw Sunday morning service as going through the motions Sunday venture. Non-LRC Christians were not 24/7, but only for 2 hours on Sunday morning. I realized my pharisee-like behavior nearly cost me a friend in a sister and her husband.
Several experiences opened my eyes. One in readingThe Normal Christian Churchlife. In reading this book by Watchman Nee I realized the discrepancy between Watchman Nee's minstry and what the LRC practices.
Having spent some time with Christians outside the local churches, I have met numerous saints who are like sponges for the Lord in their seeking and running after Him. I have realized what one blended co-worker was right when he said, "the recovery is not for everyone." That is because meeting in the local churches is based on the ministry and not all Christians want to take or follow a ministry.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Methinks your questions are somewhat rhetorical....but since you asked (for it)

Oh I know what I asked for. It's just that I wanted a personal perspective on it. Consider it rhetorical or whatever, but it's a genuine question that I want to know all of your answers to.

[OBW]

My experience with the LRC began in Jan 1973. Some have considered that the kind of mentality that we thought of Nee and Lee as apostles started at the end of the 70s or the early 80s. But that is not so. As a senior in high school that Winter/Spring, I went back to the old place to return some choir music we had found. Went on a week day, probably during Spring Break. I ran into a youth intern that I had not known and he asked about our place. I mouthed off with some nonsense about following real apostles. I guarantee that I was not savvy enough to make that up. It was at least being said out loud among the people if not taught.

Then, a few years later, there was a family reunion in the Dallas area of part of my mother's family. We ended out going to church with an aunt (my grandmother's sister). It was the first Sunday of the month so they were having communion. My mom made a quiet stink to us about not partaking of their "divisive table." Years later, when we left the LRC, I had a little trepidation about partaking of communion the first few times, and it took me about a year to finally join the choir. It was several years later that I noticed how much I still thought I knew more than most of them.

While I stopped the rhetoric some time ago, I am only now beginning to realize that saying or thinking things like "only care for Christ" is more hype than substance. I began to stop and think what it was that I was thinking when I considered those phrases. Even when I heard it a little in that "Christ v Religion" video. And the answer is that I can't say that it means anything of substance, but rather is a hollow device to demean others while elevating "superior" rhetoric to the position of following and obeying Christ. A way to justify letting meeting life replace real life.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

While I stopped the rhetoric some time ago, I am only now beginning to realize that saying or thinking things like "only care for Christ" is more hype than substance. I began to stop and think what it was that I was thinking when I considered those phrases. Even when I heard it a little in that "Christ v Religion" video. And the answer is that I can't say that it means anything of substance, but rather is a hollow device to demean others while elevating "superior" rhetoric to the position of following and obeying Christ. A way to justify letting meeting life replace real life.

One of the concerns in non-LRC Christianity about everyone speaking is the risk of speaking something that is not scripturally sound. Which brings me to rhetoric of superiority. In my last tour in the LRC one particular brother on several ocassions prophesied how we in the recovery have so much and can see so much and Christianity can't see anything. I strongly disagree, but the danger of speaking such a word in public is too great of bringing others into an aura of false superiority. I brought it to an elder's attention and his reactions was essentially, "just let him grow in life". That was enough for me to realize nothing has changed in the LRC.

[OBW]

Oddly enough, I've seen enough evidence both within the LRC and outside that indicates that, as a whole, Christians who think in ways that are "inner-life" in nature, or that dance around them, tend to think that God is giving them special light; that they see things that are beyond what we know is in scripture.

In other words, they don't need others telling them what they "know" to be true. All they need is themselves and their Bibles.

And then there is a system called the LRC that trains people to see what is not there. They mostly accept all the nonsense that is fed to them. But they have learned. Then some of them leave. They may have seen through the problems with the LRC. But not always through the "special readings." I keep finding them. And I still sometimes let my private "light," whether from the LRC or elsewhere, interfere with my interactions with others.

And worrying about those who are stuck in "old ways" is another problem. Even in arenas where no one has ever heard of the LRC, those who like the old ways despise and warn about the new ways, while those who like the new ways despise and warn about the old ways.

It is a common problem with so many of us. Now add into the mix the extreme thinking that the LRC gave us and we were doomed. At least for a while.

[UntoHim]

**** I wrote this post yesterday morning but didn't post it until now. Thanks for all the others who have contributed.

Many thanks to Abounding for his post. I think it really captivates the common mindset/experience of most members in a very reasonable and succinct manner. Maybe the real difference today is that the LC members are not as aggressive or verbal as we were back in the day. Also, with the big push of the “Bibles for America” campaign, they have a little more incentive to exercise their version of “politically correct” with other Christians. Still, I think Abounding has given us some insight how the same deep seated prejudices and stereotypes are alive and well in the LC. In a recent experience I had with a current member, when they came to a non-Local Church worship service (so far so good) the brother refused to participate in the Lord’s Table. Even after the pastor/elder read the appropriate passages and invited all who consider themselves as believers and members of the Body to partake, he still refused to participate. Though a bit offended, I realized why he refused….Witness Lee taught that if a Local Churcher would partake of the Lord’s Table anywhere else he would be doing so “unworthily”.

Getting to my experience since leaving the Local Church. As with many (most?) former members I found it very difficult to get up enough nerve to attend any other fellowship. Even though I was beginning to see many of the big problems with the teachings and practices, after about 20 years I still had a deep seated allegiance to the Movement and personal affection/attachment for Witness Lee as a spiritual leader. Even though I had a lot of respect for John Ingalls, John So and the other “rebels”, I could not bring myself to believe that Lee was anything but the one apostle and oracle on earth and that the Local Church was indeed “The Recovery”. For a number of years I still had a naïve assumption that there could be a “recovery of the Recovery”. Of course at that point I was still in the dark about much of the sordid history of the Movement.

So for the first number of years I compared and contrasted every fellowship with the Local Church of Witness Lee. Of course none could measure up. It was very hard to enter into the enjoyment of the worship music. It was either too slow, old and “dead”, or it was too contemporary and “worldly”. The preaching was either too “religious” and full of “dead doctrine” or it was too “worldly” or “fleshly”. Since none had the “flavor” of the Local Church, none could live up to expectations. I tended to gravitate towards larger congregations so I would not have to have much personal contact with other people. For years I still considered other Christians as “babies”, and figured I had much more to offer them than the other way around. Most of the time I figured I had more biblical knowledge than the pastor/elder who was at the front speaking.

It’s hard to put an exact number on how long it was before the Witness Lee/Local Church blinders began to lose their effect. I did find that the more I spent time around other Christians, the more I realized just how bogus the Local Church’s claims of superiority really were. In fact I slowly but surely began to realize that it was me that was spiritually immature and lacking real biblical knowledge – and this after sitting at the feet of the one oracle on earth for about two decades! I soon began to see the wonderful things that had been instilled in my brothers and sisters in Christ, especially the older ones. I began to see that the Lord had not left the Body without men who were truly godly and supremely faithful to His Word.

Fast forward to today. I myself have probably come full circle, and now have more of a built in prejudice against current LC members. I’m not quite sure if this is a function of being out of the Movement for so long, or maybe just being out in the real world of Christianity and seeing what the Lord is doing among his people as a whole.

[ToGodAlone]

From my limited LRC exposure, it seems as though everything you guys are saying about them having a feeling of superiority rings true, even if they don't see it in themselves. The few people I know in the LRC believe their meetings and Bible studies to have more "depth" in them (whatever that means) than other groups'. And of course, they are always reluctant to attend anything put on by another church group. I used the example many months ago of an all campus worship event on my college campus. I was surprised to see a few LRC members there (though I don't think they were the "die-hards" or whatever you wish to call them) and had to drag one along with me almost. It would seem as though the LRC very much preaches that they are the true movement on earth and that everyone else is "lost."

That being said...what do we do about it? Logic says we have to do our best to try to get them out of that mindset, but obviously very much easier said than done. Is there any reasonable means of action that can help them see what's going on?

And not to say that "Babylon" doesn't have its problems either, but at the very least, most groups are open to doing things with other groups. My church and intervarsity are always interacting with each other and hanging out and what not. CRU (or campus crusade I believe it used to be called) joins in sometimes as well. I think in terms of Christianity as a whole, it's very easy to fall into a bubble where you pretty much only interact with people in your church. Not that there's always a feeling of animosity towards other groups, but rather more of a comfort zone thing...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

I think in terms of Christianity as a whole, it's very easy to fall into a bubble where you pretty much only interact with people in your church. Not that there's always a feeling of animosity towards other groups, but rather more of a comfort zone thing...

This is what I've noticed to be true. Whether you meet in the local churches, denominations, or non-denominations, that is children tend to meet with the churches or fellowship of churches how they were raised. As these children have become adults and begun families of their own, they raise their children in the same churches. I think for many to consider meeting anywhere else will take them out of their comfort zone.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I myself have probably come full circle, and now have more of a built in prejudice against current LC members. I’m not quite sure if this is a function of being out of the Movement for so long, or maybe just being out in the real world of Christianity and seeing what the Lord is doing among his people as a whole.

What exactly do you mean by prejudice? Please ellaborate.

[UntoHim]

Terry, I think I'm probably more apt to generalize that all current LC members think exactly alike....have the exact same views of Witness Lee and now the blended brothers. This would be doing the same thing that LCers do to other Christians, no? I do my best to try and resist the temptation to generalize people, especially our brothers and sisters in Christ.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Terry, I think I'm probably more apt to generalize that all current LC members think exactly alike....have the exact same views of Witness Lee and now the blended brothers. This would be doing the same thing that LCers do to other Christians, no?

I realize the potential for such a trap, but it's really difficult to differentiate who does and who does not. In terms of generalties I'm sure there are those who cling to the same views as the blended brothers. Then there are brothers and sisters whose views are reserved for private conversations. As brought up in another post, much of their Christian life is in the local churches. This is their comfort zone. Which is why they would not be so quick to come on this forum in candid conversation and whom they open up to would be much more guarded. That is not wanting to risk being quarantined by not being politically correct.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

This is what I've noticed to be true. Whether you meet in the local churches, denominations, or non-denominations, that is children tend to meet with the churches or fellowship of churches how they were raised. As these children have become adults and begun families of their own, they raise their children in the same churches. I think for many to consider meeting anywhere else will take them out of their comfort zone.

To an extent, it's like brand loyalty. You grow up with it as a kid and never learn to use anything else. I might be in the minority in how I think just because of my personal experiences and opinions, but it seems like people tend to stick close to "home" as it were. I think in the case of something like the LRC though, their comfort zone seems to be far more hostile than everyone else's. At the same time though, it seems like the LRC and the rest of Christianity don't really attempt to get along either. LRC calls everyone "Babylon" and "Babylon" calls them a cult. I think the difference between the LRC is that they refuse to branch out to anything not in the LRC. From my experience at least, everyone in "divisive denominational churches" would be fine getting together now and then and doing things together. My campus church contains people from all of those "divisive denominations" and Evangelical churches and even a few Catholics as well. Hard to define that as divisive, wouldn't you think?

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

That is not wanting to risk being quarantined by not being politically correct.

The fact that this quarantine even exists is a troubling matter in itself...

[A Sojourner]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

. From my experience at least, everyone in "divisive denominational churches" would be fine getting together now and then and doing things together. ?

This also has been my experience too. I left the LC about 3 1/2 months ago, and the Lord directed me to a fundamental bible church( rather quickly I might add), just a few minutes from where I live. One of the brothers asked me if I would like to come to a gathering at another brothers home one evening. I replied that I would like that very much . Yep, the Lord plopped me right down in the middle of a home meeting with a group of brothers/sisters that have been meeting for 35 yrs., with members of 3 congregations present. Poor,no.. degraded, hardly..fallen, get outta here! I went home really thanking the Lord for this experience.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by A Sojourner

One of the brothers asked me if I would like to come to a gathering at another brothers home one evening. I replied that I would like that very much . Yep, the Lord plopped me right down in the middle of a home meeting with a group of brothers/sisters that have been meeting for 35 yrs., with members of 3 congregations present. Poor,no.. degraded, hardly..fallen, get outta here! I went home really thanking the Lord for this experience.

I have had this experience too. In the city I live in, I know of at least 4 congregation (the Church in ______ included) that advocate weekly home meetings. How many home meetings represent saints from multiple congregations? Not many. Problem is an inability to go beyond your comfort zone. Those in the local church home meetings don't want to participate in any home meeting apart from the ministry. That may be the case for home meetings whose attendees meet with denominations or non-denominational churches come Sunday morning. I have felt blessed the past few years being part of a home meeting where the basis of our gathering is not where we meet on Sunday mornings. Generally that's been lost among many Christians.