The Great NorthWest - Discussions & Concerns covering NorthWest area of USA

[TLFisher]

To all those interested the 2008 West Coast Christian Conference will be taking place in Tacoma, Washington from July 23-27.


http://www.westcoastchristianconference.com/2008/

[Old Rasputin]

Who is Stephen Kaung? He's one of the speakers at the conference, and his name pops up a bunch amongst old local church veterans.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

He was a coworker of Watchman Nee's from Amoy. He now lives in Richmond, VA and travels extensively to teach mainly among overseas Chinese Christian groups. He started Christian Fellowship Publishers. He is a writer himself and also has translated much of Nee's work. He often worked with TAS when he was alive. I have listened to some of his sermons and my personal opinion is that he is a very insightful and gifted bible teacher.

[TLFisher]

Old Rasputin, when I met Stephen Kaung last summer he indicated an openness to fellowship with the local churches.

Terry

[TLFisher]

I have long been curious about the dynamics why the Church in Moses Lake is no longer received nor regarded as a local church. Is there anyone that can provide insight?

Terry

[TLFisher]

Based from a couple I visited in 2006 whom had years ago met with the Church in Moses Lake, they indicated the Church in Moses Lake met as the practical expression of the church well before being introduced to ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.
By the time I moved to Washington state in 1993, the Church in Moses Lake had then been regarded as a rebel church.
If as Christians we really do have a vision of the practical expression of the church, it should be based on receiving generally.
When a church as Moses Lake isn't received because they had disassociated from Living Stream Ministry, we as members of the Body of Christ must call into question what our receiving is based on.

Terry

[TLFisher]

During the 1986 elders training Brother Lee indicated the source for fellowship would now be the ministry. For many such as the leading brothers in Moses Lake, there had been nearly 20 years in the recovery where basis of fellowship and walk with one another is entirely on Jesus Christ.
This was the vision of practically expressing the daily churchlife.
If continuing fellowship was based on a ministry, this way could not be taken.

Terry

[TLFisher]

West Coast Christian Conference 2010
Dear Brother or Sister:

As a previous attendee of the West Coast Christian Conference (WCCC), this e-mail is to inform you that WCCC 2010 will be held Wednesday, July 28 through Sunday, August 1, 2010 in Los Angeles, California at Biola University. The theme of the conference is, "The way of recovering the testimony of Jesus Christ." We are working hard to ensure the registration process is smooth and convenient.

Please visit us at http://www.acfhome.org/wccc to find out more information about WCCC 2010.

On-line registration will be available April 1, 2010. The registration deadline is July 1, 2010. All attendees must register, with priority given to full-time registrants.

A few things to note:

Accomodations
Biola University has given us a capacity of 700 beds. Space is limited, so early registration is recommended. Rooms are university dorm-style. Families will be kept together. Children under the age of 18 will be assigned rooms with or near their parent or guardian.
Daytime Visitors
Daytime visitors are welcome to participate in all meetings, discussions and meals, but must register in order for us to give an accurate count to Biola University. Please register before the deadline.
Parking
Parking permits are required at all times. Biola University will distribute parking permits to registered attendees only. If you are a daytime visitor, please allow for ample time before the start of the meeting to check-in and receive your parking permit.

Please feel free to contact us with any questions about the conference.


Thank you,

[TLFisher]

International Memorial Day Conference May 25-28
at Hyatt Regency in Bellevue, Washington

http://churchinbellevue.org/wp-conte..._5-20-2012.pdf

[TLFisher]

This summer the West Coast Christian Conference will be held again in the Northwest. I'm only mentioning here as many brothers and sisters who formerly met with the local churches receive the ministering of Christ by Stephen Kaung and the other speakers who labor with him.

http://www.westcoastchristianconference.com/2012/

This year's conference theme is "Christ is All and in All".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

This summer the West Coast Christian Conference will be held again in the Northwest. I'm only mentioning here as many brothers and sisters who formerly met with the local churches receive the ministering of Christ by Stephen Kaung and the other speakers who labor with him.

http://www.westcoastchristianconference.com/2012/

This year's conference theme is "Christ is All and in All".

There are numerous speakers at Seattle Christian Assembly who were formerly with WN. One was Christian Chen. I wonder if they would receive TC since he was ordered by WL years ago to excommunicate Christian Chen.

[TLFisher]

Recently from November 9-11 was the Puget Sound Blending Conference. Here are the links to the messages.

http://churchinseattle.org/downloads/

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

Recently from November 9-11 was the Puget Sound Blending Conference. Here are the links to the messages.

http://churchinseattle.org/downloads/

I have a Cuisinart. Did they get help on that kind of blending?

I know that is ridiculous, but it is always what comes to mind when I read "blending conference."

Originally Posted by Ohio

There are numerous speakers at Seattle Christian Assembly who were formerly with WN. One was Christian Chen. I wonder if they would receive TC since he was ordered by WL years ago to excommunicate Christian Chen.

Could you say more about this? Why did WL excommunicate CC, and why did he use TC to do it? Was the excommunication legitimate?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Could you say more about this? Why did WL excommunicate CC, and why did he use TC to do it? Was the excommunication legitimate?

I don't know if the questions can ever be answered. Probably only Witness Lee knew why Christian Chen was to be excommunicated. Why Titus, we can only guess. Many of us know majority of the excommunications are illegitimate. Here is what I can say;

"Lee sent Titus to Sao Paulo to deal with Chen; he happened to be out of town on business. I believe you can imagine the scenario. Much hurtful words and inuendos were spoken by Titus against Chen in his absence (keep in mind Chen was the one who helped Titus when he arrived in the US in poor spiritual condition). Only Chen's wife was in the audience to bear the embarrassment. This was the beginning of the end for Chen."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

Recently from November 9-11 was the Puget Sound Blending Conference. Here are the links to the messages.

http://churchinseattle.org/downloads/

I had listened to the first two messages. The spoken words by itself was good, but when taking into consideration the speakers...."If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

At the 2011 Puget Sound Blending Conference Ron spoke about the Kingdom Principle of Relationships. Specifically referencing the Gospel of Mark 11:25-26

Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.

Does that mean Ron had forgiven John Ingalls? Whom Ron and Kerry had singled out in their book A Response to Recent Accusations?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Could you say more about this? Why did WL excommunicate CC, and why did he use TC to do it? Was the excommunication legitimate?

The excommunication is only legitimate in LC circles. I also have uestions about the details, but TC would only do this because WL told him to. These brothers often operated as a military. If you are ordered to carry out a mission, you do it as a loyal soldier.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The excommunication is only legitimate in LC circles. I also have uestions about the details, but TC would only do this because WL told him to. These brothers often operated as a military. If you are ordered to carry out a mission, you do it as a loyal soldier.

Ohio, as I understood the question was the excommunication Biblically legitimate. To refuse or to acknowledge it (AK, GO, RA) you become persona non grata.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Ohio, as I understood the question was the excommunication Biblically legitimate. To refuse or to acknowledge it (AK, GO, RA) you become persona non grata.

Yes, I facetiously used the word "legitimate."

Thanks.

[TLFisher]

Having been listening to the third message of the 2012 conference, I would recommend listening to Ron's sharing on the Body. Listening to Ron's speaking touched on a chapeter of the New Testament I find referencing many times, 1 Corinthians 12. The subject of the Body is extremely personal. As a single brother I realized the Body is not so narrow. The Body is not inclusive only to Christians meeting in the local churches, but all Christians. A matter I had to repent of having such a narrow view of the Body.

[TLFisher]

Listening to message 3, I have this quote and a following comment for your consideration. First a quote from the message;

"The Body will built itself up through growing in life and through skillful function, but there is a step that precedes this and at the heart of the God ordained way is the recovery and practice of this step. Unless this step is understood and practiced in the Local Churches, the Lord will have no way to complete the building.and therefore no way to return for the bride. So first the Lord is building Himself into our being. In particular He selects certain members of the Body that He will manifest as gifts. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers. And He will make these ones as we saw in the wonderful message this morning, His co-workers. His fellow workers. God's goal to build up the Body will be their only goal. And the Lord will work Himself into them as gold, silver, and precious stones. And then their main responsibility will be to make other believers the same as they are"

He meaning the Lord will select certain members of the Body that He will manifest as gifts? My comprehension when reading 1 Corinthians 12 is as believers, we all have varying mesaures of gifts. Some may have a greater measure of a gift or gifts than another, but each one "is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11,27-31

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Listening to message 3, I have this quote and a following comment for your consideration. First a quote from the message;

"The Body will built itself up through growing in life and through skillful function, but there is a step that precedes this and at the heart of the God ordained way is the recovery and practice of this step. Unless this step is understood and practiced in the Local Churches, the Lord will have no way to complete the building.and therefore no way to return for the bride. So first the Lord is building Himself into our being. In particular He selects certain members of the Body that He will manifest as gifts. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers. And He will make these ones as we saw in the wonderful message this morning, His co-workers. His fellow workers. God's goal to build up the Body will be their only goal. And the Lord will work Himself into them as gold, silver, and precious stones. And then their main responsibility will be to make other believers the same as they are"

He meaning the Lord will select certain members of the Body that He will manifest as gifts? My comprehension when reading 1 Corinthians 12 is as believers, we all have varying mesaures of gifts. Some may have a greater measure of a gift or gifts than another, but each one "is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11,27-31

Looks like the basis for a clergy laity system.

[TLFisher]

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:1-3

Message 4 is much content based on Ephesians 4.

To paraphrase some of what brother James was sharing,

On one hand we have the reality when we meet fellow believers, there's a reality of being one in the spirit. On the other hand there is the oneness of practicality. We are not quite there to be there practically.
In Seattle thousands of believers meet every Lord's day. How come not all can be one practically. All each staying in each own comfort zones.
To remain theoretical about it to accept defeat. There is a need to press on. "Until we all arrive" as seen in verse 13.

Without suggesting if Seattle Christian Assembly and the Church in Seattle can or cannot be practically one, what about brothers and sisters who were in the local churches at one time or another.
Could the brothers from the Church in Everett be practically one with Al Knoch (a former elder of the Church in Anaheim who currently resides minutes away from Everett)?
Could Ron Kangas and Benson Phillips be practically one with John Ingalls? Each are Anaheim residents.
Could the Church in Anaheim be practically one with Westminster Church Assembly?
Quite possibly you could go to a bi-annual training. At some point you'll go to a restaurant to eat. Suppose you ran into a former elder who's also dining there. He greets you with grace. What do you say? Or do you shun the brother? Is that an expression of oneness in the spirit?

It just shows as James Lee spoke we're not there yet. We still have a ways to go.

How do you become one practically?
Some items I considered:

Take the Word of God as our one ministry
Take The Holy Bible as our one publication
Take the cross to terminate the flesh
repent and forgive to reconcile past offenses.

[TLFisher]

Just how far are Christians from practical oneness?

I think in the local churches, brothers and sisters vary. Some receiving according to Romans 15:7. While others maturity in receiving is limited to LSM publications.
In my area where I live I know at least 4 assemblies (the local church included) that stress home meetings.
One of the brothers in the home meeting I meet with from ERCC lives on the same block as a local church home meeting I had met with several times. This brother can even describe which house. I have no doubt he and his wife would be received. However with a reciprocal invite, would the response be eagerly accepted? We're currently going through the Gospel of John accompanied by RC Sproul's commentary on the Gospel of John. Would that be too much? Venturing outside what James Lee described as the "comfort zone".
If you're one meeting in the local churches and you feel you're in God's central move and such, sometimes you've just got to meet where your fellow believers in Christ are at. Even if it means "shaking hands over the fence". Impart your gifts to them and likewise they may impart their gifts to you.
Forgive me, but I harbor doubt and skepticism that oneness in practicality can be as a "two way street" in mutuality. My sense as a non-essential item of faith, the LSM publications become essential for oneness in practicality. What seems impossible, is possible with God.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Terry

Forgive me, but I harbor doubt and skepticism that oneness in practicality can be as a "two way street" in mutuality. My sense as a non-essential item of faith, the LSM publications become essential for oneness in practicality.

No question about it: Witness Lee's ministry is the basis of the LC systems' "oneness in practicality". Of course all Christians in a city will never swallow this idea of "oneness". Why should they?

If James Lee came to my church and preached about "practical oneness" and told the truth that he meant joining the LC system and accepting LSM as the one publisher and Witness Lee as the MOTA and the BB as his official continuation we would think he's a weirdo.

As we did some more research we would realize that Ray Graver says the lampstands all went out in the GLA when they wouldn't fall in line with the Anaheim Politburo and would think: "Hey this is what they do to their own coworkers, elders and churches within the system." Does anyone over there at LC HQ seriously believe we would want to have anything to do with that sort of "practical oneness"?

[TLFisher]

Here's an excerpt of what was shared last month:

"I will not be specific. Only the Lord knows how deepened the wound. In this part of the earth, inflicted by the enemy to a gifted person, who had a kind of ministry, but not for the building up of the Body. What was the issue? How much building was the issue of that? What is the outcome? Even this event should be a learning to us. In our being we have the same germ. We need the Lord's mercy. Anyone who serves the Lord as a gift has to pass through radical purification. You're not for yourself! You're not to get a following! You're not for your own thing! You're for God's goal and you're for the saints! And you're to impart what's been wrought in you into them and then just be the same. And we all do the work of the ministry. I believe this will be the way to totally nullify everything the enemy did historically in this part of the earth. Is not only the the situation is resolved outwardly. Is that we're back on track. We're back on track. This is never going to happen among us again! We know the difference now between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body. We can tell the difference. We're not naive children any longer. Lord, we want to contribute to this in the time left. We want to contribute directly to the work of the ministry. So any activity that is not for the building up of the Body of Christ is a work of division. You can have a radio program. You can have a newspaper. You can have Bible studies in your big house. Lots of activity. People are drawn. People are helped temporarily, but it is not for the building up of the Body of Christ. After exercising long forbearance, Brother Lee publicly renedered his view of this situation. He said the brother asked me to speak concerning his work and Brother Lee said it is a division. The ministry as only one goal to build up the Body of Christ."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

"Lots of activity. People are drawn. People are helped temporarily, but it is not for the building up of the Body of Christ. After exercising long forbearance, Brother Lee publicly rendered his view of this situation. He said the brother asked me to speak concerning his work and Brother Lee said it is a division. The ministry as only one goal to build up the Body of Christ."

Pretty spiritual, when you have such penetrating insight as Lee had: "What I do builds up the body of Christ. What everybody else does is a division."

That is merely self-referential subjectivism masquerading as objective truth. When it builds a reinforcing system around itself it is hard to bring down. Paul in 2 Corinthians 10 talks about bringing down "high things" which are opposed to the knowledge of God. I would posit that such are the mental construct(s) behind that kind of teaching, presented here by Terry.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

Here's an excerpt of what was shared last month:

"I will not be specific. Only the Lord knows how deepened the wound. In this part of the earth, inflicted by the enemy to a gifted person, who had a kind of ministry, but not for the building up of the Body. What was the issue? How much building was the issue of that? What is the outcome? Even this event should be a learning to us. In our being we have the same germ. We need the Lord's mercy. Anyone who serves the Lord as a gift has to pass through radical purification. You're not for yourself! You're not to get a following! You're not for your own thing! You're for God's goal and you're for the saints! And you're to impart what's been wrought in you into them and then just be the same. And we all do the work of the ministry. I believe this will be the way to totally nullify everything the enemy did historically in this part of the earth. Is not only the the situation is resolved outwardly. Is that we're back on track. We're back on track. This is never going to happen among us again! We know the difference now between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body. We can tell the difference. We're not naive children any longer. Lord, we want to contribute to this in the time left. We want to contribute directly to the work of the ministry. So any activity that is not for the building up of the Body of Christ is a work of division. You can have a radio program. You can have a newspaper. You can have Bible studies in your big house. Lots of activity. People are drawn. People are helped temporarily, but it is not for the building up of the Body of Christ. After exercising long forbearance, Brother Lee publicly renedered his view of this situation. He said the brother asked me to speak concerning his work and Brother Lee said it is a division. The ministry as only one goal to build up the Body of Christ."

I'm sure that they had specific things or even a single thing in mind. But they avoid directly speaking of it.

Was there any indication of whatever "it" was that they are getting beyond? That they were "over"?

Or were the faithful to just accept that something had been going on but it was now "over"?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm sure that they had specific things or even a single thing in mind. But they avoid directly speaking of it.

Was there any indication of whatever "it" was that they are getting beyond? That they were "over"?

Or were the faithful to just accept that something had been going on but it was now "over"?

Well OBW, I think you know as well as I do. When as adults choosing to go elsewhere for fellowship while the parents continue to meet in the local churches. Same applies here. Ron in his speaking, "In this part of the earth", many would infer to the Puget Sound region where Seattle is. Where brother Ron says, "inflicted by the enemy to a gifted person, who had a kind of ministry", that would recognized as meaning Bill Freeman. Of course there are other hints to direct the listener to know who he was talking about without being specific.
The saints from Seattle who moved down to Scottsdale was years (85-87?)before I moved (93) to Washington state. Some of whom were younger gifted brothers whose parents continued to meet with Washington state localities. As to being over it, in my first local church home meeting in 1994, following the meeting part of the conversation centered around "the rebels" who went to Scottsdale. Having been out of the churchlife for a period of years, I wasn't clear by what was meant as rebels or whom?
A few years later one of the brothers from Scottsdale came up for his sister's wedding (as she and their mom still met in the local churches). As for one who was presumed to be a rebel, I was quite impressed with the brother and how well he was received by the saints from our locality. Though meeting in fellowship apart from the local churches, he was still family; a member of the Body.
Are they any more over it know than then? I don't know. Perhaps the concept among some in the local churches needs to change from "Us and Them" to, "are you pressing on with the Lord where you fellowship"?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

Here's an excerpt of what was shared last month:

"I will not be specific. Only the Lord knows how deepened the wound. In this part of the earth, inflicted by the enemy to a gifted person, who had a kind of ministry, but not for the building up of the Body. What was the issue? How much building was the issue of that? What is the outcome? Even this event should be a learning to us. In our being we have the same germ. We need the Lord's mercy. Anyone who serves the Lord as a gift has to pass through radical purification. You're not for yourself! You're not to get a following! You're not for your own thing! You're for God's goal and you're for the saints! And you're to impart what's been wrought in you into them and then just be the same. And we all do the work of the ministry. I believe this will be the way to totally nullify everything the enemy did historically in this part of the earth. Is not only the the situation is resolved outwardly. Is that we're back on track. We're back on track. This is never going to happen among us again! We know the difference now between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body. We can tell the difference. We're not naive children any longer. Lord, we want to contribute to this in the time left. We want to contribute directly to the work of the ministry. So any activity that is not for the building up of the Body of Christ is a work of division. You can have a radio program. You can have a newspaper. You can have Bible studies in your big house. Lots of activity. People are drawn. People are helped temporarily, but it is not for the building up of the Body of Christ. After exercising long forbearance, Brother Lee publicly renedered his view of this situation. He said the brother asked me to speak concerning his work and Brother Lee said it is a division. The ministry as only one goal to build up the Body of Christ."

With Bill Freeman's passing last Friday, I thought of this word spoken by Ron Kangas last November. Assuredly in the aftermath of what Ron spoke in Ecaudor, he was not going to mention Bill Freeman by name. Many of those in attendance knew exactly who Ron was referring to.
In light of what Ron spoke in November 2011 on Mark 11:25-26, I had hoped there would be a heart change towards brothers like Bill Freeman who parted was from LSM fellowship.

Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]

Ron did speak some words of truth I can testify to. "We know the difference now between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body. We can tell the difference. We're not naive children any longer." No, I am not a naive child any longer. I can tell the difference between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

With Bill Freeman's passing last Friday, I thought of this word spoken by Ron Kangas last November. Assuredly in the aftermath of what Ron spoke in Ecaudor, he was not going to mention Bill Freeman by name. Many of those in attendance knew exactly who Ron was referring to.
In light of what Ron spoke in November 2011 on Mark 11:25-26, I had hoped there would be a heart change towards brothers like Bill Freeman who parted was from LSM fellowship.

Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]

Ron did speak some words of truth I can testify to. "We know the difference now between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body. We can tell the difference. We're not naive children any longer." No, I am not a naive child any longer. I can tell the difference between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body.

Wow, it is amazing how judgmental this guy is in his speaking. Seems like he can't wait till the great white throne of judgment.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow, it is amazing how judgmental this guy is in his speaking. Seems like he can't wait till the great white throne of judgment.

Please elaborate? My post or Ron's message?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Please elaborate? My post or Ron's message?

"I will not be specific. Only the Lord knows how deepened the wound. In this part of the earth, inflicted by the enemy to a gifted person, who had a kind of ministry, but not for the building up of the Body."

Judgmental

"What was the issue? How much building was the issue of that? What is the outcome? Even this event should be a learning to us. In our being we have the same germ."

Judgmental

"We need the Lord's mercy. Anyone who serves the Lord as a gift has to pass through radical purification. You're not for yourself! You're not to get a following! You're not for your own thing! You're for God's goal and you're for the saints!"

Judgmental. When he says "we need the Lord's mercy" this is not in reference to his personal testimony but in relation to his judgement of someone else. It is repulsive. He implies that he was not purified by the Lord's blood, hence the "need". He is accusing him of getting a following, doing his own thing, not being for God's goal, and not being for the saints.

"And you're to impart what's been wrought in you into them and then just be the same. And we all do the work of the ministry. I believe this will be the way to totally nullify everything the enemy did historically in this part of the earth. Is not only the the situation is resolved outwardly. Is that we're back on track. We're back on track. This is never going to happen among us again!

Judgmental, repulsive, heinous.

We know the difference now between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body.

Judgmental. Despicable. Are we talking about Hitler? How long has he been dead?

"We can tell the difference. We're not naive children any longer. Lord, we want to contribute to this in the time left. We want to contribute directly to the work of the ministry. So any activity that is not for the building up of the Body of Christ is a work of division. You can have a radio program. You can have a newspaper. You can have Bible studies in your big house. Lots of activity. People are drawn. People are helped temporarily, but it is not for the building up of the Body of Christ. After exercising long forbearance, Brother Lee publicly renedered his view of this situation. He said the brother asked me to speak concerning his work and Brother Lee said it is a division. The ministry as only one goal to build up the Body of Christ."

Judgmental. What is very clear to me is that when we all do appear before the Lord's judgment there are going to be fireworks over this. One way or the other someone has called down judgment on themselves. This is one of those times I am glad to be merely a spectator.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Here's an excerpt of what was shared last month:

"I will not be specific. Only the Lord knows how deepened the wound. In this part of the earth, inflicted by the enemy to a gifted person, who had a kind of ministry, but not for the building up of the Body. What was the issue? How much building was the issue of that? What is the outcome? Even this event should be a learning to us. In our being we have the same germ. We need the Lord's mercy. Anyone who serves the Lord as a gift has to pass through radical purification. You're not for yourself! You're not to get a following! You're not for your own thing! You're for God's goal and you're for the saints! And you're to impart what's been wrought in you into them and then just be the same. And we all do the work of the ministry. I believe this will be the way to totally nullify everything the enemy did historically in this part of the earth. Is not only the the situation is resolved outwardly. Is that we're back on track. We're back on track. This is never going to happen among us again! We know the difference now between someone getting a following and someone burdened for the Body. We can tell the difference. We're not naive children any longer. Lord, we want to contribute to this in the time left. We want to contribute directly to the work of the ministry. So any activity that is not for the building up of the Body of Christ is a work of division. You can have a radio program. You can have a newspaper. You can have Bible studies in your big house. Lots of activity. People are drawn. People are helped temporarily, but it is not for the building up of the Body of Christ. After exercising long forbearance, Brother Lee publicly renedered his view of this situation. He said the brother asked me to speak concerning his work and Brother Lee said it is a division. The ministry as only one goal to build up the Body of Christ."

I'm confused. Who said this? To whom? Where?

Please try to be more informative about when you are posting and when you are quoting others. There are software features which can help, such as wrapping quotes in a box, using colors, italics, etc.

Terry, if you would spend a little more time polishing your posts, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't know if the questions can ever be answered. Probably only Witness Lee knew why Christian Chen was to be excommunicated. Why Titus, we can only guess. Many of us know majority of the excommunications are illegitimate. Here is what I can say;

"Lee sent Titus to Sao Paulo to deal with Chen; he happened to be out of town on business. I believe you can imagine the scenario. Much hurtful words and inuendos were spoken by Titus against Chen in his absence (keep in mind Chen was the one who helped Titus when he arrived in the US in poor spiritual condition). Only Chen's wife was in the audience to bear the embarrassment. This was the beginning of the end for Chen."

Is this statement in quotes written by you or someone else?

What is the source of this information? Is there more detail?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm confused. Who said this? To whom? Where?

Please try to be more informative about when you are posting and when you are quoting others. There are software features which can help, such as wrapping quotes in a box, using colors, italics, etc.

Terry, if you would spend a little more time polishing your posts, it would be greatly appreciated.

I was under the impression it was a quote from something Ron Kangas shared based on hearing that Bill Freeman had died.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I was under the impression it was a quote from something Ron Kangas shared based on hearing that Bill Freeman had died.

So you are confused too?

Bill Freeman passed away last week, but this thing is dated last November.

So Kangas is now a prophet?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So you are confused too?

Bill Freeman passed away last week, but this thing is dated last November.

So Kangas is now a prophet?

What is this that has come to the son of Kangas? Is Ron also among the prophets?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Please try to be more informative about when you are posting and when you are quoting others. There are software features which can help, such as wrapping quotes in a box, using colors, italics, etc.

Terry, if you would spend a little more time polishing your posts, it would be greatly appreciated.

Ohio, in general when I post:
1. I use quotation punctuation.
2. Most of the time, but not always I place what I am quoting in bold.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is this statement in quotes written by you or someone else?

What is the source of this information? Is there more detail?

It's in quotes, so I did not write it. It come in the form of personal communication.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I was under the impression it was a quote from something Ron Kangas shared based on hearing that Bill Freeman had died.

No, ZNP. The source of the message has a link via post #12. It was from November 10, 2012.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

It's in quotes, so I did not write it. It come in the form of personal communication.

So you are not saying who wrote it?

[TLFisher]

http://westcoastchristianconference....5/default.html

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

http://westcoastchristianconference....5/default.html

If you look at the proposed conference, it starts with Acts 13:36, and the eternal purpose of God. Then the messages go on to the "heart of the divine revelation", the epistles of Paul. Paul's epistles also show us the eternal purpose of God. It would be interesting to see the connection, thematically, between his extemporaneous speech in Acts 13, and his more developed letters. Okay, so far so good.

One thing that interested me is that Luke has Paul is speaking to the Jews, and Paul keeps tacking on "those of you who fear God", i.e. the non-Jew proselytes, in his address. (See vv 16, 26, 43, and especially vv 46-48.) These people had been marginalized in the OT schema, and Paul saw that they were now "front and center" in God's heart. Thus his oral ministry clearly was recognizing the Gentiles, even though he was speaking in a synagogue in front of the Jews.

But here's what I want to get to: look at what Paul uses for the basis of his argument: the same thing as Peter did in Acts chapter 2. Paul uses the Psalms.

32 We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.’

34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,

‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’

35 So it is also stated elsewhere:

‘You will not let your holy one see decay.'

36 Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

38 Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

Paul quoted three OT passages, and two of them were the Psalms. Yet, when WL moved on to the "heart of the divine revelation" (Colossians, Philippians, Galatians) it was as if he forgot all of that. Paul had used the shared awareness of the OT as his basis for exploring the meaning of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ from the dead. The faith in Jesus was based upon shared understandings of the OT proclamations. Yet WL in his explanations avoided this wherever possible. Only what the NT text forced him to acknowledge, would he do so. Otherwise it was either warped into "Christ and the Church", or dismissed out of hand as "fallen men's concepts". What a loss.

I hope Kaung et al do a better job, this summer. Otherwise, what's the point? More empty words by people who make a living manufacturing words. More distractions. They say that they are looking away unto Jesus, but they are looking away from the text. What Jesus do they see, then?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I hope Kaung et al do a better job, this summer. Otherwise, what's the point? More empty words by people who make a living manufacturing words. More distractions. They say that they are looking away unto Jesus, but they are looking away from the text. What Jesus do they see, then?

Please understand I mean no disrespect to Kaung et al. Maybe they are far above me. But this is a web site on the LC, and I am commenting on the Jesus that I saw presented in the LC. I hope Kaung does a better job. Really. Now, I wrote once of a guy who was supposedly a "crazy lover of Jesus", but when I went into his home there was a black-light poster on the wall, bought in a roadside gas station for 20 dollars. There was his Jesus, looking down! This fellow really wasn't interested in the Bible. He had his "Jesus" on the wall, and that was good enough for him. But I'm sorry, that isn't good enough for me.

Now, imagine if you will, a guy at work who always talks about examining the Bible. Every week he tells you they are studying Ephesians 2, or 1 John 3, or whatever. Wonderful, right? Then he invites you, and you're curious so off you go. You arrive at the address, and there they are in a room, and on the wall are colored blotches and funny noises coming out of the loudspeakers.

"What's this?", you ask. "Oh, this week we are studying 1 Corinthians 11... it's on head coverings and the Lord's supper"

What? What does that have to do with looking at colors on the wall, and funny noises?

"Well, you see, our leader has a program which converts the original words in Greek to associated colors and noises. It is a proprietary program, which he gained after years of study."

----------------------------

WL, similarly, had an "algorithm" which he called God's economy which allowed him to see things that no one else had seen. And, importantly, it allowed him to dismiss things others had seen. Even writers of the Bible! And what was left? Where was the "love your neighbor"? Where were good works?

It was said of Jesus, that "he went around doing good works" - this was spoken by Peter, his close disciple, as an introductory word to the attentive gentiles in Acts 10. If you Google "he went around doing good" it will pop up first on the page. It is front and center - it isn't hidden, folks! Yet in WL's interpretive algorithm it simply vanishes! Amazing! Works are dead! Only faith saves. Yet, faith in what? What is the Jesus you proclaim? The "processed and consummated Triune God, whom we masticate to become God in life and nature and consummate the New Jerusalem"?

So we preach faith, but faith in what? In our interpretive algorithm? And what is left of the Bible, once it has been run through your interpretive machine? No, thanks.

[aron]

Let me re-cast my argument, here. If Paul talks in Acts about the "eternal purpose of God", quoting the OT, and then later presents something else, in his epistles, WL would take the first and superimpose it on the second. Even if changing context no longer made it as applicable, he'd get some grand, over-arching theme and plow the entire Bible with it, and who knows what kind of monstrosity would emerge from his "revelation"? WN would do the same thing: he'd find a "theme", and bring it places it probably didn't belong. But he'd get us to uncritically assume it did, usually because he put it so dogmatically. It was a confidence game, and we took his confidence as our own.

Now please don't think I am painting Kaung and company with the same brush. I don't know how they operate. Perhaps quite differently. But forgive me if I'm gun-shy, with people finding "the eternal purpose of God" and dragging it through irrelevant scriptures.

[TLFisher]

An old post from the old Bereans forum

http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=40532

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

An old post from the old Bereans forum

http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=40532

Though the subject why the letter was necessary wasn't named, I'm fairly certain it's one I knew previously or know currently.
One phrase that caught my attention in respect to the brothers defense of Sherman:
He also never mentioned the name of anyone other than Brother Lee in any of his sharing.

Christians who may visit the local churches would be put off by mentioning of a particular minister such as a brother Lee. See 1 Corinthians 1:12.

[Indiana]

Stephen Kaung at 100 years old arrived here in Seattle by plane yesterday from Richmond VA. And he "looked good", said Godwin Sun after the prayer mtg last night. Brother Kaung is a former co-worker of Watchman Nee. And Godwin was among the young people following Witness Lee before T. Austin Sparks came to Taipei; but thereafter began to follow T. A. Sparks, and later also Kaung. Both brothers Stephen and Godwin, will give a message each at the conference next week.

http://westcoastchristianconference....5/default.html

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Stephen Kaung at 100 years old arrived here in Seattle by plane yesterday from Richmond VA. And he "looked good", said Godwin Sun after the prayer mtg last night. Brother Kaung is a former co-worker of Watchman Nee. And Godwin was among the young people following Witness Lee before T. Austin Sparks came to Taipei; but thereafter began to follow T. A. Sparks, and later also Kaung. Both brothers Stephen and Godwin, will give a message each at the conference next week.

http://westcoastchristianconference....5/default.html

This Sunday morning I looked down my row, the fifth row, and saw that Stephen Kaung was sitting at the end and across the aisle from me, unnoticed by "everyone". That is the way he prefers, to be unnoticed, with his focus on Christ always and on the good of the Body.

He had been conversing with Godwin's son, Ben, and I had not recognized brother Kaung yet, but I wondered why Ben was so intently interested in this elderly brother and looked down the row again and then recognized who he was talking to.

After this Lord's table meeting I saw that at his age Brother Kaung struggled to stand up but did make it without assistance, and took his cane and began to walk unassisted, with his wife strides ahead of him, his sister also ahead of him, and Godwin's wife also ahead, and he was alone and though they are accustomed to this ability of his to get around, I thought I should meet him at the head of his aisle, help him out the door and to the car. As he came up the aisle, and saw me waiting for him to help him, he broke into his big smile and I looked beside me and Ben was there. He knew we were waiting there to help him. And, Ben did, and those I mentioned. I introduced Stephen to a new brother and told him, "James is a new brother here, you can say hello to him." And he did, smiling, and then continued on his way slowly out to the car.

He is scheduled to give the 1st message of the conference, July 22. He does look good. I am amazed at him and sense that the prospects of the increased labor and burden in this assembly are promising, in life and increase and building up of the Body of Christ, here, and in other places associated with Stephen Kaung. This is my own feeling and not intended to promote him...

[NewManLiving]

I was blessed with the opportunity to attend the Christian Family Conference several weeks ago in VA. I had been listening to the livecast for several years. I decided that I must attend this year. Needless to say - I had a wonderful time! The meetings were full of the Holy Spirit and we were all joyously filled. They were Christ centered with emphasis on the preeminence of Christ and our need to be faithful stewards. I was not surprised to meet many that were formally with the LC. But I was surprised to meet one wonderful brother who has been attending for several years and is currently active with the LC. He did admit he was coming to an impasse and would need to make a decision. He said he could no longer shepard the new LC converts with a good conscience knowing what he knows and how he felt. He has been in the LC for some time and he was quite honest about the deadness that has been allowed to persist within the LCM system. What impressed me the most was the simplicity of the saints and their devotion to Christ. They are very normal people who truly desire to step aside and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal what is on His heart. It is unfortunate that I had missed out on this ministry for years because I had been influenced by statements made against brother Kaung from members and leaders in the LSM system


The Father loves the Son with the deepest love and Has given Him all things and Has made Him head over all things. I often ask the Father if I could love the Son with His love. Now that would be love!!!

Have a wonderful time brother

[NewManLiving]

One further note: you should see their book room - filled with the works of many servants of Christ. It was the most impressive I have seen. Many of the books I had been looking for myself. I really appreciate the writings of Lang, Pember and Govett. They had books by these authors that I was unable to find elsewhere. It was quite refreshing to know that God has many oracles. The only qualification is absolute surrender and devotion to Him. The Holy Spirit loves to reveal the Mystery of God to us -- Christ

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

It is unfortunate that I had missed out on this ministry for years because I had been influenced by statements made against brother Kaung from members and leaders in the LSM system

Obviously the feeling is not mutual because brother Stephen is open to fellowship with them.

[Freedom]

After Brother Nee passed away, the first one who spoke of receiving ministries was Brother Stephen Kaung; he was the leader in receiving ministries. Well, so Stephen Kaung has received ministries until today. More than thirty years have passed and have become history. What is the result? Now, may I ask, what is Stephen Kaung's ministry? I do not believe that even he is able to tell us what his ministry is.
http://www.afaithfulword.org/articles/BriefAccount.html

The above quote is an example of a LC criticism of Stephen Kaung. Because it's taken from afaithfulword.org, it's obviously a statement Lee made that the blinded brothers used to support their "One Publication" edict.

I wonder how "receiving ministries" be possibly be a valid criticism of anyone? I guess Lee/LSM must have been living on a different planet. If anything, Lee could have chosen to work with Stephen Kaung, who could have been a peer to Lee and perhaps "balanced" him out a little bit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The above quote is an example of a LC criticism of Stephen Kaung. Because it's taken from afaithfulword.org, it's obviously a statement Lee made that the blinded brothers used to support their "One Publication" edict.

I wonder how "receiving ministries" be possibly be a valid criticism of anyone? I guess Lee/LSM must have been living on a different planet. If anything, Lee could have chosen to work with Stephen Kaung, who could have been a peer to Lee and perhaps "balanced" him out a little bit.

That same paper had this to say about Titus Chu ...

After one of the past turmoils among us, a question was asked to Brother Lee about how the gifted brothers involved in the turmoil could have been preserved along with the work they had done. Brother Lee answered that the only way was for the gifted brothers to join Brother Lee in his work with no special region or task, and for them to simply work for the ministry in any way assigned to them, as he had done with Watchman Nee. In our present case, it would mean that you would join yourself and those co-workers loyal to you to the blending co-workers, with the continuation of your previous work left to the fellowship of their coordinated oversight. Instead of doing this, you have continued to build up your own work with your own co-workers.

In other words, a few blendeds will rule the GLA LC's while TC comes to the FTTA and cleans the restrooms, so that he can learn "lessons."

[TLFisher]

Taking what Freedom had posted:

After Brother Nee passed away, the first one who spoke of receiving ministries was Brother Stephen Kaung; he was the leader in receiving ministries. Well, so Stephen Kaung has received ministries until today. More than thirty years have passed and have become history. What is the result? Now, may I ask, what is Stephen Kaung's ministry? I do not believe that even he is able to tell us what his ministry is.
http://www.afaithfulword.org/articles/BriefAccount.html

The brothers from afaithfulword ask what is Stephen Kaung's ministry? If they would be receptive to Stephen, he could answer their question. However as I have seen Stephen Kaung's ministry is in the New Testament ministry. That is to minister Christ.
I suspect why DCP is focused on Stephen Kaung is (1) he's a viable alternative to Chinese speaking Christians in the local churches and (2) following the 1990 quarantines of John Ingalls and Bill Mallon (http://thecentralpoint.com/index.html), Stephen received them when Stephen Kaung, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls worked on the Rivers magazine along with Max Rapaport, Paul Kerr, and Devern Fromke (http://fromke.com/#). Not withstanding, John Ingalls and Christian Chen were co-speakers along with Stephen Kaung at various conferences.
Not that Stephen needs to take heed to any quarantine edicts LSM issues, but anyone who receives a quarantined brothers receives a black mark on the LSM scorecard.