Revelation 2:26,27

[Raptor]

"And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father."

This is a warning and promise spoken to believers. It is a conditional statement, i.e. IF you are victorious you will rule with Christ; therefore if you are not victorious, you will not rule with Christ over the nations.

The calling is addressed to believers. They have overcome the world by believing in Christ and have eternal life. Yet they still need to live a sanctified and fruitful life to the end, and be victorious over the flesh, the world and Satan in order to receive the top prize of ruling during the Millenial Kingdom.

Do not be deceived by the sugar coated, watered down, leavened teachings that misguide you saying that just because you are a believer, you automatically qualify to be a king.

[Ex-LC-Rosemead]

I agree with you, being saved is an active duty or spiritual duty that we have to learn. God is going to test us like He tested Job and we have to remain under that testing or tribulation until He comes or is finished with us, that is, until He deems us mature enough to rule and reign with His Son. He wants perfection and will get it if we work with Him. Getting saved is only the first step in God's plan, our spiritual life and growth starts after getting saved or ends if we so choose. Those epistles that Jesus told John to write in Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of incentives to go on with Him. His ultimate goal is discussed in 1 Cor. 15:23-28.

[PeterG]

Reward... not easy. And I think the Bible does not put it in the foreground for good reason.

Certainly for everything that Jesus has overcome, we will not receive the reward. And that encloses everything we mean by “sanctification”.

Therefore „overcoming“ in Revelation seems not to be overcoming “the world, the flesh and Satan”. Not in the sense like in the Gospels and Paul, where the gospel enters the world. It is the overcoming of things that try to destroy what already has overcome in Christ. It’s the overcoming of spiritual degeneration.

And that’s why John adresses it at the church, which is the spiritual goal of this era. God wants His church, for which Christ already died, not to lose its standing, not to give up what it posseses. And where this does happen, God looks out for at least some individuals who do not fall over, but faithfully hold on to His work until the end. They might be worthy for some more tasks.

Sheep PeterG

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Certainly for everything that Jesus has overcome, we will not receive the reward. And that encloses everything we mean by “sanctification”.

Sanctification is one of those truths that has two aspects, both supported with verses. Best described as positional and conditional. Positional sanctification is based on what Jesus has done. All genuine believers are saints by virtue of having been bought by the blood of the Lamb. Like in 1 Cor. 14:33, "For He is not the God of disorder, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints." Here sanctification is given by virtue of being a believer.


Positional sanctification is based on the living of the believer, their choices and willingness to submit to the Lord and obey His Word and live a holy life, day to day. Like in Hebrews 12:14, "Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord,". Here living a sanctified life is something to pursue, to work for.

A genuine believer is a saint in a general sense, but if he is watching porn, he is not a saint in a specific sense. All saints have eternal life, and will never lose it. Yet only the believers who in addition choose to live a holy and sanctified life and are victorious will receive the reward in the Millenial Kingdom.

[PeterG]

I understand what you mean. And we can make the “positional/conditional” distinction in a technical sense. But Jesus died for all our sins, even the ones we have a choice in and commit willfully. There is no reward for not watching porn anymore.

Likewise, there are no “general” and “specific” saints. But what there are are foolish and wise saints, awake and sleepy, understanding and ignorant. The wise, alert and understanding ones will remain faithful to God's intentions until the end. They have an advantage for this “victorious” behavior. But not because gaining power over certain personal sins.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by PeterG

But Jesus died for all our sins, even the ones we have a choice in and commit willfully. T

Yes, and that´s why a believer will not go to the lake of fire, all our sins have been forgiven. But that does not mean that the Lord will not discipline you in this age or the next for sins or sinful living. Especially unconfessed sins. Ananias and Zaphira willfuly sinned and the Lord punished them with death in this life. There are many other cases.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Therefore „overcoming“ in Revelation seems not to be overcoming “the world, the flesh and Satan”.

Sure it is, both directly and indirectly. Is there any other source for things you need to overcome? Satan is above us, the world around us, and the flesh in us.
Just read Revelation 2 and 3. Of all the items mentioned to overcome, which is not related to any of those three?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by PeterG

There is no reward for not watching porn anymore.

"But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white." Rev. 3:4-5 If watching porn is not soiling your garments, then what is? If you soil your garments (Jude 23) you will be judged as not worthy. If you do not, you are considered as worthy. Why is this so hard to understand? Please just read the Bible.

[PeterG]

In the letter to Sardis - who is called to repentance there?

... Okay, before somebody is saying that we're not in school: It's the church. And those who are praised are those who do not participate in HER sins. Anything else makes no sense - even in the overall context of the seven sendings. It’s not about some personal holiness that would have nothing to do with the sins of the Church. Notice also what the church is rebuked for! It is explicitly stated.

[PeterG]

Maybe we could agree on this position:

„What then is the reward, and what is the gift? We were saved because of the gift. God gave the gift to us freely by His grace; therefore, we were saved. The reward pertains to the relationship between us and the Holy Spirit after we were saved. When we were saved, we were related to Christ. This relationship allows us to obtain the gift that we are absolutely unworthy of receiving. Similarly, after we have been saved, we have a relationship with the Holy Spirit. This relationship allows us to obtain the reward which we could not otherwise obtain by ourselves. If one believes in the Lord Jesus as Savior, accepting the Lord Jesus as life, this one is saved before God. After he is saved, God immediately puts this one on a pathway, so that he will run in the race and will obtain the reward placed before him. A Christian is saved because of the Lord Jesus. After he is saved, he has to manifest the victory of Christ by the Holy Spirit day by day. If one will do this, then at the end of the race, he will obtain the heavenly glory and the heavenly reward from God.“

Guess who this is from. :-)

[PeterG]

May I add one more thing from WN on this matter:

"The Bible tells us of a very serious truth. Although someone may have eternal life, he may still be rejected from the kingdom of the heavens. One verse that speaks of this is Matthew 7:21: “Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.” The persons in this verse all address the Lord as “Lord.” The Lord will make a distinction between those disciples who can enter into the kingdom of the heavens and those who cannot. The Lord clearly shows us here that the condition for entering the kingdom of the heavens is doing the will of God. Although some have been saved and have called Him Lord, and although they have also done some works, without doing the will of God they nevertheless cannot enter into the kingdom of the heavens. The reward of the kingdom of the heavens is based on the obedience of man. If one is not faithful while living on the earth, though he will not lose eternal life, he will lose the kingdom of the heavens. When the time comes for the heavens to rule, that is, when the Lord Jesus comes the second time, some will not be able to enter the kingdom, but will lose it instead."
(WN, Special Grace and Reserve Grace, 1950)

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Of course I don't want to distort this forum. But may I add another thing from WN on this matter:

"The Bible tells us of a very serious truth. Although someone may have eternal life, he may still be rejected from the kingdom of the heavens. One verse that speaks of this is Matthew 7:21: “Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.” The persons in this verse all address the Lord as “Lord.” The Lord will make a distinction between those disciples who can enter into the kingdom of the heavens and those who cannot. The Lord clearly shows us here that the condition for entering the kingdom of the heavens is doing the will of God. Although some have been saved and have called Him Lord, and although they have also done some works, without doing the will of God they nevertheless cannot enter into the kingdom of the heavens. The reward of the kingdom of the heavens is based on the obedience of man. If one is not faithful while living on the earth, though he will not lose eternal life, he will lose the kingdom of the heavens. When the time comes for the heavens to rule, that is, when the Lord Jesus comes the second time, some will not be able to enter the kingdom, but will lose it instead."
(WN, Special Grace and Reserve Grace, 1950)

After coming out of the LCs and meeting with other believers it was a shock to me that many did not view salvation the same way as Watchman Nee did and how we were taught in the LCs. I used to think all Christians believed like we did.

From studying church history, I can’t find any record of this view of salvation until Robert Govett in the 19th century. If someone can truly be saved and still be a worker of lawlessness why do you think God hid this revelation in church history until 1800 years after Christ?

Early church writings do not support this view. Here is a quote from Polycarp, disciple of the Apostle John in his epistle to the Philippians chapter 2:

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm

Polycarp (c. 110 AD) - Epistle to the Philippians 2:3
But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise us up also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, false witness; not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,

Yet, in the same letter, Polycarp emphasizes that we are saved by grace because good works are the result of saving faith.

Epistle to the Phillippians 1
In whom, though now you see Him not, you believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; 1 Peter 1:8 into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that by grace you are saved, not of works, Ephesians 2:8-9 but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

If someone can truly be saved and still be a worker of lawlessness...

Hi Bearbear,
That's exactly what I don't believe! I don't believe that these two things, being saved and being lawless, fit together. And therefore I can't imagine that God makes distinctions between us in terms of our holiness. I believe that we all look the same to him and that he only looks at Christ. That's why I said: If there is a reward for only some Christians, such as reigning with Jesus, it must have to do with something "else".

[Nell]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Hi Bearbear,
That's exactly what I don't believe! I don't believe that these two things, being saved and being lawless, fit together. And therefore I can't imagine that God makes distinctions between us in terms of our holiness. I believe that we all look the same to him and that he only looks at Christ. That's why I said: If there is a reward for only some Christians, such as reigning with Jesus, it must have to do with something "else".

In my opinion, lawlessness exists because of sinful behavior. Of course, Eternal salvation would not be negated by such sinful behavior, e.g. lawlessness.

The gospel of Salvation includes confession that you are a sinner, repentance, ask for forgiveness. Sinful behavior continues over a lifetime as does the need for confession of and repentance for sin, and prayer for forgiveness.

In my opinion, I believe that figuring out such matters as our holiness, rewards, reigning with Jesus, etc., is seriously above our pay grade.

I don’t know what you mean that being saved and being lawless, “fit together.”

Nell

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Nell

I don’t know what you mean that being saved and being lawless, “fit together.”

They do NOT fit together.

Originally Posted by Nell

In my opinion, I believe that figuring out such matters as our holiness, rewards, reigning with Jesus, etc., is seriously above our pay grade.

I agree! All I wanted to say was that

"And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father."

seems to mean more than overcoming individual sin. The emphasis on "overcoming" in Revalation 2-3 is on remaining faithful and steadfast and courageous towards God's work until the end. And that God demands this from the entire local church. And where the church fails, God looks to his overcomers (as in the Old Testament).

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Nell

In my opinion, lawlessness exists because of sinful behavior. Of course, Eternal salvation would not be negated by such sinful behavior, e.g. lawlessness.

I've heard an analogy like this to describe what being a worker of lawlessness means:

1. True Christian who struggles with sin ➡️ falling in dirt and getting back up

Proverbs 24:16:
"For though the righteous fall seven times, they rise again, but the wicked stumble when calamity strikes."

2. Worker of lawlessness ➡️ rolling in dirt and enjoying it

1 John 3:9:
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

It can be hard to distinguish between the two-- just as Jesus suggested it could be hard for us to know between the wheat and tares. All the disciples were surprised when Judas was revealed to be the betrayer yet the thief on the cross who repented at the last hour was saved.

Outside of the LCs, this is a common topic of discussion in evangelical Christianity. For example, Mike Winger, a well known bible teacher on youtube actually has a whole teaching on this titled "When to be scared you're NOT a genuine Christian":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiAc1v899nQ

Originally Posted by PeterG

Hi Bearbear,
That's exactly what I don't believe! I don't believe that these two things, being saved and being lawless, fit together. And therefore I can't imagine that God makes distinctions between us in terms of our holiness. I believe that we all look the same to him and that he only looks at Christ. That's why I said: If there is a reward for only some Christians, such as reigning with Jesus, it must have to do with something "else".

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Are you suggesting that only Christians who persevere in good works will reign with Christ? And that those who are not lawless but fail to continue in good works are saved but will not reign?

I've thought about this question as well but I'm not sure because of the parable of the talents. The one talent servant who hid his gift was thrown into outer darkness/hell. And in the parable of the day laborers, all the laborers are saved and rewarded with salvation though they worked for different periods of time. In the parable of prodigal son, the son repented and he made the decision to work for his father. Jesus also ties good works and eternal rewards with salvation in this verse:

Mark 10:29-30
"Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life."

Paul also paraphrases Jesus in Romans:

Romans 2:6-7
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Are you suggesting that only Christians who persevere in good works will reign with Christ? And that those who are not lawless but fail to continue in good works are saved but will not reign?

I don't know, of course, but I'm leaning in that direction. As one thing is for sure: God is not just searching us individuals, he is searching his kingdom, his uncorrupted area in this world. So I would put it this way: I am open to the idea that those who in the last days persevere in God's work with his church, those who are real "co-workers", will also co-govern.