Christian Zionism Influence In the Local Church

[WitnessMe]

Christian Zionism is the first reason I left the Local Church. Witness Lee's heretical teaching is the second reason. I don't think we can critize Witness Lee's heretical teaching while avoid talking about Christian Zionism in Witness Lee's doctrine, since Witness Lee and Watchman's doctrine is based on dispensationalism framework.

I don't know how radical Zionism is within the U.S. local church community, but it's kind of radical within the Chinese community. I can't even stay and listen to what they say. Since Christian Zionism is in Witness Lee's core teaching, it definintely influenced Witness Lee to have biased view on Ishmael, Hagar, and the Samaritan woman at the well. This is what I found out.

Anyway, what is your opinion on this.

Here is a video from Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac talks about Christian zionism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9b8NER1K2o&t=8s

Here is a video from Stephen Sizer talks about Christian zionism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LohMNT_Xtas

[Nell]

Originally Posted by WitnessMe

…
Since Christian Zionism is in Witness Lee's core teaching, it definintely influenced Witness Lee to have biased view on Ishmael, Hagar, and the Samaritan woman at the well. This is what I found out.

Anyway, what is your opinion on this.

WitnessMe,
Please make your case. That is, cite specific references to Witness Lee’s core teaching regarding Christian Zionism, specifically regarding Ishmael, Hagar, and the woman at the well. Include books, chapters and page numbers which prove the bias you believe to exist. Quoting large amounts of text is not necessary. Just provide books, chapters and page numbers.

You have narratives about what others believe, but not what Witness Lee actually said to the Local Church community.


Thanks
Nell

[WitnessMe]

Originally Posted by Nell

WitnessMe,
Please make your case. That is, cite specific references to Witness Lee’s core teaching regarding Christian Zionism, specifically regarding Ishmael, Hagar, and the woman at the well. Include books, chapters and page numbers which prove the bias you believe to exist. Quoting large amounts of text is not necessary. Just provide books, chapters and page numbers.

You have narratives about what others believe, but not what Witness Lee actually said to the Local Church community.


Thanks
Nell

Witness Lee may not be a radical Zionism supporter, but some of the Taiwanese elders in local church are radical Zionism supporters.

This is one of the examples of Christian Zionism docrtine from Witness Lee.

13:28 1But learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near.
13:29 So also you, when you see these things happening, know that 1it is near, aat the doors.

https://bibleread.online/note/the-go...rk/13/#13_29_1

Witness Lee explains that the fig tree parable refers to the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948.

Here is an other example of Christian Zionism docrtine from Witness Lee. Since the English version of life study and crystalized study is locked behind pay wall, I can only show you the Chinese version which is free.

https://simplified.lsmchinese.org/cr...matt_cr18.html

[WitnessMe]

Here is an example of biased view on Ishmael and his descendants, and Hagar.
Witness Lee associates Ishmael and Hagar with negative connotations

"These self-made laws are our Hagars. Whether we succeed or not in keeping our laws makes no difference in the eyes of God because in His eyes even our successes do not count."

"Just as the descendants of Ishmael are a problem to Israel today, so the Ishmael that we have produced remains a problem to us."

https://www.ministrysamples.org/exce...H-THE-LAW.HTML

[Nell]

Originally Posted by WitnessMe

Here is an example of biased view on Ishmael and his descendants, and Hagar.
Witness Lee associates Ishmael and Hagar with negative connotations

"These self-made laws are our Hagars. Whether we succeed or not in keeping our laws makes no difference in the eyes of God because in His eyes even our successes do not count."

"Just as the descendants of Ishmael are a problem to Israel today, so the Ishmael that we have produced remains a problem to us."

https://www.ministrysamples.org/exce...H-THE-LAW.HTML

WitnessMe,

Comparing your link above (from Lee) and the content of your links on Christian Zionism in its commonly accepted definition, it doesn’t seem that WLee addresses Christian Zionism at all. Am I missing something?

"These self-made laws are our Hagars. Whether we succeed or not in keeping our laws makes no difference in the eyes of God because in His eyes even our successes do not count."

"Just as the descendants of Ishmael are a problem to Israel today, so the Ishmael that we have produced remains a problem to us."

Your quotes of Lee above on Ishmael and Hagar are IMHO his poor, failed attempts to mold scripture to fit his “ministry”, and little to do with the actual meaning of the verses. This was his way to make people think that his “ministry” was “special”. In this case, nothing to do with Christian Zionism. What do you think?

Nell

[WitnessMe]

Originally Posted by Nell

WitnessMe,

Comparing your link above (from Lee) and the content of your links on Christian Zionism in its commonly accepted definition, it doesn’t seem that WLee addresses Christian Zionism at all. Am I missing something?

"These self-made laws are our Hagars. Whether we succeed or not in keeping our laws makes no difference in the eyes of God because in His eyes even our successes do not count."

"Just as the descendants of Ishmael are a problem to Israel today, so the Ishmael that we have produced remains a problem to us."

Your quotes of Lee above on Ishmael and Hagar are IMHO his poor, failed attempts to mold scripture to fit his “ministry”, and little to do with the actual meaning of the verses. This was his way to make people think that his “ministry” was “special”. In this case, nothing to do with Christian Zionism. What do you think?

Nell

The videos are just to educate the readers about Christian Zionism.

Here is an example of the Christian Zionism influence in Witness Lee doctrine. Unfortunately, the Life Study is in Chinese, if you have English version, it's Matt 63 in Life Study. Witness Lee claimed that the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 fulfill prophecies regarding the restoration of Isreal.

https://www.lsmchinese.org/lifestudy/matt63.html


Also, here are the negatives words the Witness Lee used regarding Samaritans, mixed blood, false, decadent.

"The Samaritans claimed to be the descendants of Jacob. At most, they were his descendants by mixed blood."

"The Jewish religion was very sound, proper, real, and genuine, but the Samaritan’s religion was false and very decadent."

https://bibleread.online/all-books-b...ead-online/11/

You see the patterns here? In Witness Lee's mind, Jews are superior, Arabs and Samaritans are inferior. Is Witnees Lee racist, or this is the correct interpretion for the scriptures?

Jews - Pure blood vs Samaritans - mixed blood
Issac - Good guy vs Ishmael - bad guys, trouble makers

Israel is the chosen one, and Abrabs and the rest are the cursed one or the impure one. These are the common ideas within Christian Zionism to justify the establishment of the nation of Israel today.

[PeterG]

Hi WitnessMe,
I agree with Nell on the question: What do YOU think?

Don't you believe that God's prophecy was fulfilled with the founding of the state of Israel in 1948?
Are you against Christian Zionism in the general sense that Christians support Israel? - because it has a special meaning in the Bible and our Christianity stems from it.
Or are you only against extreme, radical Zionism that hates Arabs and possibly even considers them inferior in a racist way? - which of course can never be a “Christian” position.

[WitnessMe]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Hi WitnessMe,
I agree with Nell on the question: What do YOU think?

Don't you believe that God's prophecy was fulfilled with the founding of the state of Israel in 1948?
Are you against Christian Zionism in the general sense that Christians support Israel? - because it has a special meaning in the Bible and our Christianity stems from it.
Or are you only against extreme, radical Zionism that hates Arabs and possibly even considers them inferior in a racist way? - which of course can never be a “Christian” position.

My stand on Christian Zionism is clear. That's the first reason I left the local church, not Witness Lee's heresy. It's against Christian belief that God want to establish a nation on the world and build the temple. Jesus is the temple.

John 18:36 - “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Israel and Hebrews in the Old Testament are the shadows of the Church and Christian in the New Testament. Church and Christian is the fulfillment of those prophecies.

You tell me. If Christian Zionism is a good doctrine then why it leads biases against Arabs? Is God biased? Does God favor one race over others?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by WitnessMe

My stand on Christian Zionism is clear. That's the first reason I left the local church, not Witness Lee's heresy. It's against Christian belief that God want to establish a nation on the world and build the temple. Jesus is the temple.

John 18:36 - “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Israel and Hebrews in the Old Testament are the shadows of the Church and Christian in the New Testament. Church and Christian is the fulfillment of those prophecies.

You tell me. If Christian Zionism is a good doctrine then why it leads biases against Arabs? Is God biased? Does God favor one race over others?

WitnessMe,

It would be wise to include a disclaimer of some sort in your statement to the effect of “this is my interpretation”, etc. You are clearly reducing the mind of God to human standards, human thoughts, feelings and values…with a little politics mixed in.

Job made a big mistake like this in his presumptions to God and here are God’s thoughts on the matter:

Job 38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,

In all of chapter 38, God takes an amazing attitude with Job. I love the above phrase “word’s without knowledge”.

So, is God biased? Does God favor one race over another?

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Does this verse indicate God’s bias? God is the creator, builder, owner of this universe. He invented bias.

This is my interpretation.

Nell


Added note (10/13/24):
“Prejudice blinds men, even in their treatment of the Word of God, if a faulty rendering coincides with their preconceptions.” Bushnell

[Bible-believer]

Rom. 9
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[Bible-believer]

A mystery is something that you’re to believe that you can’t explain. Romans 11:25 deals with the restoration of Israel.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.