Uncovering Witness Lee & "The Lord's Recovery" by Stephanie Hu

[bearbear]

Stephanie Hu, a Christian content creator has recently released a series titled Uncovering Witness Lee & "The Lord's Recovery"

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVKlpJ58gBU
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls19R6iXRL8
Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SUcMRe8USo

Stephanie comes from a typical evangelical background and encountered the group during her senior year in college after joining a bible study with Christians on Campus. After attending a college conference she encountered a lot of red flags and started researching Witness Lee's teachings.

Here are some quotes from Part 2 around 17:28

Lee says that if we just say say oh Lord three times we will be saved. Please tell me, please show me in the Bible please, show me in the Bible where it says just say oh Lord three times and you will be saved. If you can show me where that is in the Bible I will change I will redact my statement but please show me in the Bible where it says that. That is such a dangerous thing to say. We have to repent we have to change our direction of life, we need to be focused on Jesus the whole time we're preaching and not about ourselves and not about just saying a few words words and just repeating a few words. It's not about that it's about changing our heart and having full complete faith in the savior in Jesus.

[Ohio]

This old lie has been endlessly yanked out of context. For all his faults, WL was fundamental concerning being saved. The context here was Romans 10, believing that God has raised Jesus from the dead. What do we do with v. 13? “WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Mumbling the words “o lord Jesus” is ABSOLUTELY NOT the same as Calling on the Name of the Lord. The former is vain babbling, the latter is commanded by scripture.

Can we at least have honest discussions here?

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For all his faults, WL was fundamental concerning being saved. The context here was Romans 10, believing that God has raised Jesus from the dead. What do we do with v. 13? “WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

In my view, WL deviates significantly from the fundamental aspects of salvation. The widely used “Mystery of Human Life” track by LC focuses on concepts such as man being as a vessel to contain God, the life-giving Spirit, and God's dispensing, spreading and saturating man as life. These teachings are questionable and were not addressed by Jesus or the apostles in the New Testament when preaching the gospel. Moreover, this track simplifies key concepts like repentance, faith, baptism in water, and receiving the Holy Spirit.

I recall my own experience when preaching the gospel on the streets or campuses and using the “Mystery of Human Life” track where we failed to discuss the necessity of genuine repentance, confession, renouncing sins, and restoring one’s past. We also neglected to emphasize a personal, lifelong commitment to Jesus, instead pressuring people to simply say “Lord Jesus” or repeat prayer after us, rather than encouraging them to pray in their own words.

Romans 10:13, which quotes Joel, aligns with Joel's call for the people of Judah to repent, mourn, and seek God's mercy with fasting and heartfelt prayer. To me, this represents a more authentic understanding of calling on the Lord.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

Romans 10:13, which quotes Joel, aligns with Joel's call for the people of Judah to repent, mourn, and seek God's mercy with fasting and heartfelt prayer. To me, this represents a more authentic understanding of calling on the Lord.

Good point. That reminds me of 2 Timothy 2:22 which also ties calling on the Lord with repentance.

"So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart."

In Elijah's day, the god whom you worship was the one who you would call on.

1 Kings 18:24
"Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The God who answers by fire—he is God.” Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”"

So it would make no sense to call on the Lord but not repent of sin, since turning away from sin and towards God in faith is part of our worship.

Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.”

[Bible-believer]

A saint and I co-worked with a local church for gospel preaching and feeding last year. We went door to door to visit "saints" that we were told they were. I asked them whether they knew who saved them, some said no, and some said they did know who Jesus was.
I was and am worried about whether they are truly saved.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

In my view, WL deviates significantly from the fundamental aspects of salvation. The widely used “Mystery of Human Life” track by LC focuses on concepts such as man being as a vessel to contain God, the life-giving Spirit, and God's dispensing, spreading and saturating man as life. These teachings are questionable and were not addressed by Jesus or the apostles in the New Testament when preaching the gospel. Moreover, this track simplifies key concepts like repentance, faith, baptism in water, and receiving the Holy Spirit.

I recall my own experience when preaching the gospel on the streets or campuses and using the “Mystery of Human Life” track where we failed to discuss the necessity of genuine repentance, confession, renouncing sins, and restoring one’s past. We also neglected to emphasize a personal, lifelong commitment to Jesus, instead pressuring people to simply say “Lord Jesus” or repeat prayer after us, rather than encouraging them to pray in their own words.

Romans 10:13, which quotes Joel, aligns with Joel's call for the people of Judah to repent, mourn, and seek God's mercy with fasting and heartfelt prayer. To me, this represents a more authentic understanding of calling on the Lord.

Not that I am endorsing any individual Gospel Track, but there has never been one which covered the complete Gospel of God. We need the entire Word of God for that. Did you know that it was NOT WL who wrote that tract?

But the more serious point in this discussion is crossing the line from critiquing WL to critiquing scripture. That is quite serious. Let me mention a few points.

Are we not "vessels" created by God to contain Him?

• But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory (Romans 9)
• But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us (2 Cor 4.7)
• Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. (2 Tim 2.20)

Careful there ThankfulForever777; not only rejecting WL you go further and also reject the Word of God, thus becoming a "dishonorable vessel."

Does not the Bible say "Whoever calls on the Name of the Lord shall be saved?" (Romans 10.13) Do you believe this verse, or have you rejected it? Does it only apply to Jews who are fasting? Is not "calling on His name" also partly a "heartfelt prayer?"

Are you not now taking Paul's word in Rom 10.13 out of context? As the wise adage declares "Bible text without context is a pretext for proof text."

[UntoHim]

Ohio and others,

I think that Stephanie Hu put a lot of time and consideration into these videos. I think she not only showed a good heart and spirit, but also did the work of a true Berean. She should not be considered as some mean-spirited "opposer" of Witness Lee, or anyone else for that matter.

I don't think that it's fair at all to say that Stephanie, ThankFulForever77 or bearbear are "rejecting the Word of God", and they certainly are not in danger of danger of "becoming a dishonorable vessel" for not agreeing with Witness Lee and his followers' private interpretation of Romans 10:13. This term/practice of "Calling on the Lord" has been interpreted in a number of ways by almost innumerable Christian teachers, scholars and apologists over the past 2,000+ years. The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no evidence of any kind that the first generation disciples taught and practiced calling on the Lord in the manner which is taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Nor is there any clear record of the earliest of church fathers/teachers/scholars teaching/practicing calling on the Lord in the manner which is taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Any claim that Witness Lee's teaching on this matter are biblical sound or historically accurate is an argument from silence.
-

[bearbear]

Ohio, I'm not sure if you've seen the entire video series before making a judgment on her exposition. In Part 3, Stephanie carefully explains her objections and presents evidence showing how Witness Lee places an excessive emphasis on the outward, physical act of calling on the Lord. She demonstrates how this focus diverges from the intent found in scripture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SUcMRe8USo

Here's a part of the transcript:

Let’s start with exercising your spirit and what Witness Lee says about it. This is what Witness Lee says:
“We all must learn to praise. Let us sing and praise Him and forget about our mind. We must often say or sing, 'Oh Lord, Amen, Hallelujah!' The more we say, 'Oh Lord, Amen, Hallelujah!' the more we breathe Him in. In the past, we used the wrong organ; we used the mind instead of the spirit to contact the Lord. But John 4:24 says, 'God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit.' In the past, we did not worship God in our spirit but in our mind. Now the Lord wants to turn us from the mind to the spirit, from the doctrines to the spirit, so we all must learn how to exercise our spirit to praise the Lord.”.....

Here you can see that Witness Lee really emphasizes singing and praising, just repeating “Oh Lord, Amen, Hallelujah” and forgetting about the mind and the doctrines. This is related to what I talked about in part two if you want to check that out......

If you’re in The Lord's Recovery, in the local churches, or in the college clubs, I’m not here to condemn or bring you down. The whole purpose of this series is to compare what you’re learning with the Bible and to show that it’s not biblical. Thankfully, there are many other churches that are based on the Bible and the truth of the Lord and will not twist His Word to fit their desires.

There is hope, and God is alive and well. He will lead you to the truth. This is a good reminder for all of us to be discerning, aware of what we’re learning, and always to abide by the Word of God and nothing else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ohio and others,

I think that Stephanie Hu put a lot of time and consideration into these videos. I think she not only showed a good heart and spirit, but also did the work of a true Berean. She should not be considered as some mean-spirited "opposer" of Witness Lee, or anyone else for that matter.

I don't think that it's fair at all to say that Stephanie, ThankFulForever77 or bearbear are "rejecting the Word of God", and they certainly are not in danger of danger of "becoming a dishonorable vessel" for not agreeing with Witness Lee and his followers' private interpretation of Romans 10:13. This term/practice of "Calling on the Lord" has been interpreted in a number of ways by almost innumerable Christian teachers, scholars and apologists over the past 2,000+ years. The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no evidence of any kind that the first generation disciples taught and practiced calling on the Lord in the manner which is taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Nor is there any clear record of the earliest of church fathers/teachers/scholars teaching/practicing calling on the Lord in the manner which is taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Any claim that Witness Lee's teaching on this matter are biblical sound or historically accurate is an argument from silence.
-

UntoHim and others, I'm just trying to "save the baby" so it doesn't get "thrown out with the bathwater." I realize I'm walking a fine line here, but I think it's a distinction worth making. I'm not defending anything out of LSM, but just the truths in scripture, which surely need to be rightly divided, e.g. the preciousness of the riches of the Lord by calling on His holy name in times of need (Rom 10.12) compared to that ugly, mechanized, robotic, faithless, heartless practice of vain repetitive babbling. (Matt 6.7; 15.8-9; Isa 29.13)

Sorry if it seemed that I pushed a little past "center," because it appeared to be needed just based on the posts I read, and not the extended youtube videos. I tried to point out where - I felt - the line was crossed. I have concluded that it's always better to reinforce the scripture itself positively while exposing the errors of WL and LSM.

The reason for this is simple - too many precious children of God have left the faith while exiting the LC. They couldn't discern truth from error, so they discarded everything. This is a tragedy I confront all the time with my family and friends.

Peace and love to all.

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Careful there ThankfulForever777; not only rejecting WL you go further and also reject the Word of God, thus becoming a "dishonorable vessel."

Does not the Bible say "Whoever calls on the Name of the Lord shall be saved?" (Romans 10.13) Do you believe this verse, or have you rejected it? Does it only apply to Jews who are fasting? Is not "calling on His name" also partly a "heartfelt prayer?"

Are you not now taking Paul's word in Rom 10.13 out of context? As the wise adage declares "Bible text without context is a pretext for proof text."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOjG-pLQiJc

This video (link above) is a prime example of how the gospel is presented in the LC and how it contrasts with a more biblically grounded message. When I first saw this video, it raised many red flags for me, helping me recognize the significant differences between the gospel-less and false Witness Lee's version of the gospel and a more orthodox, biblical gospel presentation.

In brief, a young college student, who had grown up in the LC her whole life, was asked how she would share the gospel with her non-Christian friends.

She responded by saying she would tell them to "call on the name of the Lord" because the Bible says that those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. She would teach them to say, "Oh Lord Jesus" and encourage them to exercise their spirit. Her focus was on helping them realize they have a human spirit and that they need to exercise it to know God, not in a formal or religious way. She also mentioned that when her friends feel bored or uninterested in life, she would tell them that they weren’t made to be filled with anything from the world, but to contain God.

In contrast, the Christian man who recorded the video presented what I believe to be a more biblical gospel message. He says something like this:
"You know that God exists. He is the Creator, and He gave you a conscience to know the difference between right and wrong. You know it’s wrong to steal, lie, and blaspheme. One day, you will stand before God, who made you, to give an account for your life. He will judge you by His moral standard. We have all sinned, and because of our sin, God will judge us with eternal punishment in hell. But God, in His mercy, provided a way of escape from His righteous wrath. Two thousand years ago, God the Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ—fully God and fully man, without sin—into the world. He lived the perfect life that we failed to live. Jesus Christ voluntarily died on the cross, bearing the punishment we deserve. He defeated sin and death by rising from the grave. Now, God commands us to turn to Christ in faith, to trust in Him and His finished work on the cross, to receive forgiveness of our sins, and to be reconciled with the God who made us, receiving the gift of eternal life with Him."

[Ohio]

ThankfulForever777 LSM is notorious for yanking verses out of context. The verses prior to Rom 10.13 speak of believing in your heart and confessing with your heart that God has raised the Lord Jesus from the dead, the Saviour who died on the cross for our sins. The verses after it speak about going out, preaching the Gospel, believing the message about our Saving Lord. Notice how they mechanize "calling" without hearing the gospel, repenting, believing, confessing, etc.

Without the foundation of faith in the message of the truth of the Gospel, good words on our lips may be nothing more than vanity. But for those who believe the Gospel, the Lord of all is rich to all who call upon Him.

When WL launched into his "scientific" method of faith, sometime near the "Perfecting Training" in the early 80's, his ministry seriously declined. Many of us saw that. Everything became a "how to." Next up was that horrible "New Way" which began in 1985.