Separation and/or Exclusion - God´s way of dealing with unrighteousness

[Raptor]

Throughout the entire Bible, we can see that God deals with unrighteousness among His creatures, whether angelic or human, believers or unbelievers by warning, rebuking, disciplining, and/or punishing. And there is one common element throughout all the different ways that God applies His judgements. This common element is the principal of separation and/or exclusion. God´s judgements are applied in different ways, to different degrees and durations, but the principal of separation and exclusion remains throughout. The following examples clearly show God´s judgements by separation and exclusion:

• When Satan originally rebelled, he was cast out of the third heaven. In the future he will be cast out of the second heaven down to the earth, and then excluded from the earth down into the Abyss, and finally cast into the lake of fire for eternal separation and exclusion.
• The evil spirits mentioned by Peter are separated out and kept in some kind of pits of darkness, awaiting the final judgement.
• When Adam and Eve fell, they were cast out of Paradise and excluded from partaking of the tree of life.
• When Cain sinned, he was driven out and separated from the presence of the Lord.
• God used the flood to cut off all life, all flesh from the earth except Noah and his family.
• Esau gave up his birthright and so was excluded from the double portion of the family inheritance.
• Breaking the law and other conditions according to the statues and ordinances in the Old Testament resulted in different degrees of separation and/or exclusion, from isolation to the cutting off from God´s people and even death:
  • Miriam was stricken with leprosy and separated from the camp for 7 days
  • Countless children of Israel were excluded from the Good Land, including Moses and many were punished with death
  • God´s glory departed from Israel when the ark was captured, separating them from the presence of the Lord
  • David lost the joy of salvation and prayed to get it back and pleaded not to be separated from the presence of the Lord
  • Israel was separated from the land when they were captured and taken to Babylon
• The result of not believing in the Son of God is to perish, which is the ultimate separation from God and exclusion from life
• The rich man that died and went to Hades is separated from Paradise in a place of torment and excluded from any peace, joy, comfort and hope
• Unrighteous Christian workers will be separated from the Lord and excluded from entering the Kingdom of the Heavens
• The evil believer who does not regard the Lord´s coming, abuses other believers and lives immorally will be cut in pieces and grouped with hypocrites, thus being separated and excluded from the Lord and His faithful servants during the Kingdom age
• The five foolish virgins are separated from the wise, they have to leave and buy oil, they are excluded from the wedding feast, the door is shut and the Lord will not open the door. (Matt. 25)
• The lazy and worthless servant who buried his talent is separated from the joy of the Lord and thrown into outer darkness (Matt. 25)
• Certain situations of unrepentant sin or division in the church call for separation and exclusion of a believer from the congregation, i.e. “excommunication”
• Some believers that partook of the Lord´s table inappropriately got sick, (as discipline, separated from health) and some even died (as punishment, excluded from life)
• Believers Ananias and Sapphira were punished with death for their sin, which is the ultimate separation from God´s people and exclusion from life, (yet they are saved eternally). Believers can commit sin unto death, as mentioned in the epistles of John.
• The Judgement Seat of Christ will separate good and faithful believers from evil and unfaithful believers; fire will separate good works from bad works
• Believers that do not meet the requirements to serve and function as an elder or deacon are excluded from that function, especially immoral believers
• Unrighteous believers, who do not repent of sexual sin, idolatry, etc. will lose their inheritance in the kingdom age, being excluded from participating in the blessings of the Millennial Kingdom and ruling and reigning with Christ
• Believers who do not run the race and endure to the end, will be excluded from receiving the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus mentioned in Philippians 3
• The goats in Matthew 25 go away into eternal punishment, which is total separation and exclusion from God and eternal life
• Believers who do not repent, those who do not hear the Spirit and do the required works in Revelation 2 and 3 will be excluded during the Millennial Kingdom from each one of the blessings and prizes mentioned: eating of the tree of life and hidden manna, receiving the white stone, not harmed by second death, clothed in white, walking with the Lord, authority and ruling over the nations, receiving the morning star and crown, made a pillar, sitting together with Christ on His throne
• Some believers who do not prepare themselves will be separated from the Bride. The Bride makes herself ready with the righteous acts of the saints. Those believers who are not ready will not be invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb, they are excluded.
• When the Lord wages war against the beast and the ten kings, He will be accompanied by the called, chosen and faithful believers. Those believers who are not faithful will be excluded.
• Satan, death, those who take the mark of the beast, the Antichrist, false prophet, all unbelievers, all not in the Book of Life are separated and excluded from the holy city and cast into the lake of fire

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

[*]The result of not believing in the Son of God is to perish, which is the ultimate separation from God and exclusion from life

I'm not a Greek scholar and rely on concordances so I asked ChatGPT (model 4) about the verb tense of "belief" in John 3:16

Question: What is the tense of "believe" in John 3:16? Give a detailed explanation.

In modern translations, "believeth" is updated to "believes," which is also present tense.

The present tense in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, indicates a continuous or ongoing action.
The Greek word used in John 3:16 is "πιστεύων" (pisteuōn), which is a present participle. This form of the verb implies not just a single moment of belief but a continuous, ongoing state of believing.
Therefore, the present tense of "believe" in this context emphasizes the necessity of an ongoing, persistent faith in Jesus Christ for one to receive eternal life.
It suggests that belief is not merely a one-time act but a continual trust and reliance on Jesus.
This understanding aligns with the broader theological message of the New Testament, which often emphasizes the importance of perseverance and ongoing faith.

So the implication is that for one to attain eternal life, the belief has to be continuous. True belief in Jesus results in continuous and sustained belief.

To verify Chat-GPT's interpretation we can look at the Greek text for John 3:16 in an online interlinear such as https://biblehub.com/text/john/3-16.htm

The word "believes" according to the resource above is assigned V-PPA-NMS

The notation "V-PPA-NMS" in your concordance refers to the grammatical features of the Greek verb "believes" (πιστεύων, pisteuōn) in John 3:16. Let's break down each part of this notation:

V: Verb

This indicates that the word is a verb.
PPA: Present Participle Active

Present: The present tense in Greek usually indicates an action that is continuous or ongoing. So, "believes" here implies a continuous or habitual action of believing, rather than a one-time event.
Participle: A participle is a form of a verb that can function as an adjective or a noun. In this case, "believes" is describing a person who is in the state of believing.
Active: The active voice indicates that the subject is performing the action. The person is actively believing.
NMS: Nominative Masculine Singular

Nominative: This is the case used for the subject of the sentence. It tells us that the participle is in the nominative case, meaning it is functioning as the subject or is referring to the subject.
Masculine: This tells us the gender of the noun that the participle is modifying or referring to. In Greek, nouns and participles have gender (masculine, feminine, neuter).
Singular: This indicates that the noun or subject is singular, referring to one person.
Putting it all together, "V-PPA-NMS" tells us that "believes" in John 3:16 is a verb in the present tense, indicating ongoing action. It is a participle, meaning it describes a person who is continuously believing. The active voice shows that the subject is actively doing the action of believing. Finally, it is nominative masculine singular, meaning it refers to a singular male subject or is grammatically masculine in the context of Greek grammar.

In John 3:16, this description emphasizes that the belief in Jesus is not just a one-time act but an ongoing, continuous state of faith.

[bearbear]

In John 8, Jesus performs a separation among Jewish believers.

John 8:31
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples.”

Jesus encourages the Jewish believers to continue abiding in His word, similar to His message in John 15:1-18.

However, just two verses later, their belief begins to waver, and they start to question His teachings.

John 8:33
They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

Astonishingly, Jesus goes on to reveal that these Jews, who had just moments before professed belief, are actually children of the devil, not of God.

John 8:44-45
“You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.”

These Jews, who initially seemed to be genuine believers, were revealed to be false disciples, much like the second soil in the Parable of the Sower—they believed for a while but eventually fell away. Similarly, like the branches that did not abide in Jesus in John 15, they withered and were ultimately cast into the fire.

They failed to fulfill the promise of John 3:16, as their belief was temporary. Thus, they were exposed as false believers, like tares among the wheat, who did not attain eternal life.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In John 8, Jesus performs a separation among Jewish believers. John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples.” Jesus encourages the Jewish believers to continue abiding in His word, similar to His message in John 15:1-18. However, just two verses later, their belief begins to waver, and they start to question His teachings.

No neccesarily. It was a complex audience, composed of different kinds of people. When the text says "they answered", we don´t really know exactly who or how many answered. It is better to look at the context: Jesus is talking openly in the temple courts to many people. For example, they are described as "people", Jews, Pharisees, many that believed in Him, those who were trying to kill Him, those who did not understand Him, those unable to accept His message, sons of the devil, those who do not believe Him, those who do not belong to God, those who dishonor Him, those who picked up stones to throw at Him.

According to context, it makes no sense that some, those who believed in Him would also be those who did not believe Him. Would those that believed in Him also be those who were trying to kill Him? Makes no sense. There are different kinds of reactions based on different kinds of conditions, diffent kinds of people. It does not follow that those that beleived in Him were now suddenly those that are waivering or those who had been wanting to kill Him. So most likely some believed, some just listened, some opposed Him, some had been planning to kill Him, etc. Generally speaking, it was the Pharisees who were jealous out of their minds, opposing, asking testing questions and those who wanted to kill Him, not all the people.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

No neccesarily. It was a complex audience, composed of different kinds of people.

In the beginning of John 8 it may have been a complex audience but by verse 30, Jesus' focus narrows instead of broadening.

John 8:30-31
As he was saying these things, many believed in him. So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him

Notice the shift to the audience to the Jews who had believed in Him. After this verse there is no indication that the audience changes.

John 8:32-33
“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

The they in verse 32 clearly refers to the audience in verse 31 the Jews who had believed him. To suggest otherwise would be committing eisegesis. The conversation between Jesus and the Jews who believed in him continues in such a manner until Jesus declares they are of their father the devil in verse 44.

This is nothing out of the ordinary as there are accounts of people who had superficial belief in Jesus and later fell away.

John 2:23-25
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Just like in John 8, Jesus did not trust himself to people who believed in his name. He knew what was in each person, meaning he knew their hearts reflected their father the devil and they were not truly born again believers just like in John 8.

This also reminds me of the infamous verse which foreshadows the great apostasy during the end times of self professed believers who will take the mark of the beast to save their own life:

John 6:66
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

A true disciple will continue walking with Jesus. If someone decides to no longer follow Jesus, they are not his sheep.

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Someone who is not a sheep of Jesus does not belong to him and will not inherit eternal life.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In the beginning of John 8 it may have been a complex audience but by verse 30, Jesus' focus narrows instead of broadening.
John 8:30-31
As he was saying these things, many believed in him. So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him
Notice the shift to the audience to the Jews who had believed in Him. After this verse there is no indication that the audience changes.

There is no way you can confirm who is responding. That´s why I´m saying to look at the context of what is going on. Some were desiring to kill Him. That was a desire they already had from some point in the past. It makes no sense that somebody desiring to kill Him would suddenly now believe in Him and then continue to desire to kill Him. Regardless, I don´t see much benefit in trying to figure out these kind of details in these verses. If your point is that some believed and then changed their mind, well there are many clear descriptions of exactly that in other passages.

---------------------------------------------------

When a person believes in the Son of God, in the message of the gospel, all the redemptive work of Christ on the cross is applied to the new believer. He is justified out of faith in the blood of the Lamb and he is also born again by the Spirit. That cannot be undone or lost, it is a positional fact. That position cannot be affected even if that same person later denies the Lord, whether five minutes later, five days, five weeks, five months, five years or fifty. In other words he is saved by grace through faith and cannot lose his salvation. What can change is the condition of the believer, for better or worse, which will affect his relationship with the Lord and his inheritance in the coming age. That can be gained or lost.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

When a person believes in the Son of God, in the message of the gospel, all the redemptive work of Christ on the cross is applied to the new believer. He is justified out of faith in the blood of the Lamb and he is also born again by the Spirit. That cannot be undone or lost, it is a positional fact. That position cannot be affected even if that same person later denies the Lord, whether five minutes later, five days, five weeks, five months, five years or fifty. In other words he is saved by grace through faith and cannot lose his salvation. What can change is the condition of the believer, for better or worse, which will affect his relationship with the Lord and his inheritance in the coming age. That can be gained or lost.

The disciples who were prevented from entering the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 7:21-23 were surprised when they were shut out of heaven and perhaps they thought they were positionally justified.

Matthew 7:23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew (ginóskó) you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

In John 10:14 Jesus says "I am the good shepherd. I know (ginōskō) my own and my own know (ginōskō) me". Hence in order to belong to Jesus, he has to know you intimately (ginōskō). That Jesus told those who called him Lord, Lord "I never knew you" means the false believers never belonged to him hence they were deceived into thinking they had true faith. Jesus called them workers of "lawlessness" so they were not obedient. Disobedience is a sign of a false believer. James says that even the demons believe but they are disobedient so saving faith goes beyond mere intellectual agreement.

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Romans 2:6-8
God 'will repay each person according to what they have done.' To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."

Hebrews 10:26-27
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There is no way you can confirm who is responding. That´s why I´m saying to look at the context of what is going on. Some were desiring to kill Him. That was a desire they already had from some point in the past. It makes no sense that somebody desiring to kill Him would suddenly now believe in Him and then continue to desire to kill Him. Regardless, I don´t see much benefit in trying to figure out these kind of details in these verses. If your point is that some believed and then changed their mind, well there are many clear descriptions of exactly that in other passages.

Other commentaries on John 8:33 found on https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/8-33.htm share a more literal reading of the passage and assign Jesus' message to the unbelieving Jews. There is other commentary that supports your view but I think it's reading between the lines. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on this point and moving on.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(33) They answered him—i.e., the Jews who had believed in Him (John 8:31). There is no indication that this answer was made by others standing near, nor would this supposition have been made but for the difficulty of applying some of the words which follow (John 8:40; John 8:44) to those who had ever professedly been believers; but the explanation is to be found in our Lord’s own warning words in John 8:31. He has tested their faith, and they fail in the first steps of discipleship.

Meyer's NT Commentary
John himself has precluded us from supposing any other to be intended, by expressly referring (John 8:31) to those Jews among the πολλοί (John 8:30) who had believed, and emphatically marking them as the persons who conduct the following conversation. To them the last word of Jesus proved at once a stone of stumbling. Hence we must not suppose that Jews are referred to who had remained unbelieving and hostile (as do Augustine, Calvin, Lampe, Kuinoel, De Wette, Tholuck, Lücke, Maier, Hengstenberg), and different from those who were mentioned in John 8:31 (ἀπεκρ. they, indef.); nor do the words ζητεῖτέ με ἀποκτ. in John 8:37 necessitate this supposition, inasmuch as those πεπιστευκότες might have at once veered round and returned again to the ranks of the opposition, owing to the offence given to their national pride by the words in John 8:32. Accordingly, there is no warrant for saying with Luthardt that the reply came primarily from opponents, but that some of those who believed also chimed in from want of understanding. The text speaks exclusively of πεπιστευκότες.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
33. They answered him Or, unto Him, according to the best MSS. ‘They’ must mean ‘the Jews who had believed Him’ (John 8:31): it is quite arbitrary to suppose any one else. The severe words which follow (John 8:44) are addressed to them, for turning back, after their momentary belief, as well as to those who had never believed at all.

Expositor's Greek Testament
John 8:33. But this announcement, instead of seeming to the Jews the culmination of all bliss, provokes even in the πεπιστευκότες (John 8:31) a blind, carping criticism: Σπέρμα … γενήσεσθε; we are the seed of Abraham, called by God to rule all peoples, and to none have we ever been slaves. “The episodes of Egyptian, Babylonian, Syrian, and Roman conquests were treated as mere transitory accidents, not touching the real life of the people, who had never accepted the dominion of their conquerors of coalesced with them,” Westcott. Sayings such as “All Israel are the children of kings” were current among the people. How then could emancipation be spoken of as yet to be given them?

[bearbear]

Positional justification may hold for the true believer but believers who fall away from the faith do not belong to Jesus and hence are revealed to be false believers who are not saved.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Here John makes it clear that those who fall away never belonged to the family of God.

Hebrews 10:38-39
"But my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls."

Here the writer of Hebrews says those who shrink back from the faith are "destroyed". Someone who is suffering a temporary punishment during the millennial kingdom would instead be "disciplined" not "destroyed". And there would be no need to preserve their souls since they are already saved. This is a clear contradiction to the millennial exclusion doctrine.

Galatians 5:7
You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 4:11
I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Paul says of the Galatians believers who at one point held to the true gospel and were running well that they were severed from Christ and fallen from grace. It is by grace that we are saved so Paul is basically warning them of damnation and he was afraid he had labored in vain, meaning it would have made no difference whether he ministered to them or not because by adding circumcision to the gospel they were as good as unbelievers.

1 Cor 15:2 (NIV)
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Phil 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

Paul warns his audience of holding firmly to the gospel because their faith will be in vain if they stop believing. Their destiny would be the same as if they had never believed at all.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The disciples who were prevented from entering the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 7:21-23 were surprised when they were shut out of heaven and perhaps they thought they were positionally justified.

"Many will say to Me on that day...." What day is that? Where are they? When is that taking place?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

"Many will say to Me on that day...." What day is that? Where are they? When is that taking place?

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The context of "on that day" in Matthew 7:22 is Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" so it refers to the last day of judgment where the ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire.

The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to as the "day of judgment" or the "last day" in scripture.

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

You probably know many people in real life who profess to be Christians but live like ungodly men or women. God doesn't care how we label ourselves but what is actually in our heart (Romans 2:28-29).

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Jesus says the Father will judge those who reject him at the last day. God will also use the words that Jesus spoke to judge us so we can't rely on the writings of Govett, Panton, Lang, Lee or Nee on doctrines like positional justification to defend ourselves. Hence why I am trying to focus on scripture and not doctrinal statements. Someone who rejects Jesus and his words is not saved according to

John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

so Jesus himself also uses the term "the last day" to refer to the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the millennium kingdom. It is perhaps labeled as "the last day" to refer to the "last day" of the old creation before the new heavens and new earth.

In Matthew 7:21-23 the judgment sounds final "I never knew you, depart from me". There is no indication that Jesus is giving them a second chance. This is consistent with the last day of judgment. If they were his sheep, Jesus would have known them at some point. Only sheep who belong to Jesus are saved.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

These false disciples besides not being sheep were likely not even goats. The context of this warning are false prophets who disguise themselves as wolves in sheep's clothing earlier in verses 15-20 who are ravenous on the inside. Not only are they are not born again but as wolves, they are like Satan who is a roaring lion looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8-10).

Matthew 7:15-20
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The context of "on that day" in Matthew 7:22 is Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" so it refers to the last day of judgment where the ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire.

The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to as the "day of judgment" or the "last day" in scripture.

The "Day of Judgment" begins with the pre-millennium Bema Judgment Seat of Christ and ends on the same thousand year long "Day" with the Great White Throne judgment. Both judgments have fire. (I Cor 3.15) When these "workers of lawlessness" will be judged is determined by whether their sins have been forgiven and they have received the gift of eternal life. Admittedly there are most probably "workers of lawlessness" in both camps.

The fiery lake of the Great White Throne, prepared for the devil and His angels, is called the "Second Death." (Rev 20.14; 21.8) Rev 2.11, however, provides a great reward for those faithful believers in Smyrna who were suffering grievous persecution while on earth. They will NOT be touched by the fire of the "Second Death." This verse strongly informs us that some believers, however, WILL be touched by the "second death."

bearbear, you have a mindset that prevents you from understanding anything Raptor and I have written. I wish you could read what I call the "Kingdom Authors," ones like Govett, Land, Panton, et. al. Just because Nee/Lee taught from some of these same authors does not make their teachings wrong in this regard.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The "Day of Judgment" begins with the pre-millennium Bema Judgment Seat of Christ and ends on the same thousand year long "Day" with the Great White Throne judgment. Both judgments have fire. (I Cor 3.15)

The difference between the fires in both judgments is that during the Bema seat judgment, the works are being burned up (1 Cor 3:15) whereas during the Great White throne judgment, the souls are the ones being destroyed in fire.

The context of Matthew 7:21-23 are bad trees who produce bad fruit. If the works were being burned then the fruit would be burned, instead the trees are being burned which is consistent with souls being thrown in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). Hence the "last day" in Matthew 7:22 is referring to the Great White Throne judgment not the Bema seat judgment.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

bearbear, you have a mindset that prevents you from understanding anything Raptor and I have written. I wish you could read what I call the "Kingdom Authors," ones like Govett, Land, Panton, et. al. Just because Nee/Lee taught from some of these same authors does not make their teachings wrong in this regard.

I am doing my best to interact with all the scripture and points you all are making but you and Raptor seem to be ignoring the scripture I am sharing perhaps because it is so hard to deal with because millennial exclusion is directly contradictory to the scripture I shared.

I have a much easier job since there is so much evidence against millennial exclusion in scripture and I am discovering more as I post. Defending this view is really hard using just the bible and not Govett, Lang or Panton's writings and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I am doing my best to interact with all the scripture and points you all are making but you and Raptor seem to be ignoring the scripture I am sharing perhaps because it is so hard to deal with because millennial exclusion is directly contradictory to the scripture I shared.

I have a much easier job since there is so much evidence against millennial exclusion in scripture and I am discovering more as I post. Defending this view is really hard using just the bible and not Govett, Lang or Panton's writings and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

bearbear, by your "standards" none can be saved. All will perish in the burning lake.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. -- Hebrews 10.26

Please introduce me to one Christian who has never "sinned willfully."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

bearbear, by your "standards" none can be saved. All will perish in the burning lake.

You are criticizing me for applying the same standards described in the warning passages to those who will inherit the eternal kingdom of God instead of the millennial kingdom. But by that reasoning, no one would inherit the millennial kingdom as well.

I didn't setup those standards, all I am doing is sharing scripture and trying to communicate its direct meaning and offering very little interpretation.

Why do you think Jesus warned narrow is the way to life and few find it? And that many will try to enter but not be able to? Was he lying or telling the truth? If Jesus taught us to speak plainly and that our "yes" should be "yes" and our "no" should be "no" (Matthew 5:37), it would make sense that he would apply the same standard to himself in his sermons. If this is the case, he is likely unhappy with those who are re-interpreting his words to mean something else.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23-24
And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. -- Hebrews 10.26

Just as New Testament grace should not be used as a license for deliberate sin (Romans 6) but was intended for unintentional sins to empower Jesus' followers trying to walk the narrow way that leads to life, the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were also intended to atone for the people's unintentional sins according to

Hebrews 9:7:
"but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people."

This is in reference to passages such as Numbers 15:30-31 (NLT)
“But those who brazenly violate the Lord’s will, whether native-born Israelites or foreigners, have blasphemed the Lord, and they must be cut off from the community. Since they have treated the Lord’s word with contempt and deliberately disobeyed his command, they must be completely cut off and suffer the punishment for their guilt.”

Willful sin such as murder and adultery resulted in stoning in the law of Moses and the writer of Hebrews is saying how worse a punishment there will be for false Christians who use grace as a license to sin since they are profaning not the blood of animals, but the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:26-31
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Please introduce me to one Christian who has never "sinned willfully."

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Practicing righteousness is hard -- that's why it takes practice. We may start out bad at it but with time one can get better. Regarding practicing sin, there are self professed Christians who practice sin and apparently get better at it and never take any actions to stop and repent.

I think examples of willful sin are defrauding saints of 501c donations and money laundering the profits in an LLC, promoting a adulterous and rapist son into an ministry office position and writing a book to slander the prophets who confronted the person about such wrongdoing and things of that nature. These are easily avoidable sins even to unbelievers and it is incredible that a Christian leader would be involved in such immorality and still claim the name of Christ.

We were under Witness Lee's leadership in the LCs and he did not offer a good example for us to follow and I think that reverberated throughout leadership down to the lay members which resulted in a bad culture, at least in the LCs outside of the midwest and other places.

There are some healthy churches who do have leaders with good examples who are sold out for Jesus who do create a culture of holiness and love so I think it is possible and I have observed people who do live in a manner worthy of their calling who have been my inspiration.

Many evangelicals outside of the LCs hold to a theology that their eternal destiny is at stake if they live in sin and not just temporary discipline in their after-life so they have all the motivation to live holy lives. However God also uses that opening to reveal himself as a God of love so many are able to transition from fear to love and obey Jesus out of love. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Phil 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

When you become born again, God changes your heart so that you will love the things he loves and hate the things he hates so it gradually becomes easier to live in holiness because it becomes your desire to live righteously through the Holy Spirit. Without an inward change it is impossible to live holy lives. The law is not enough to change us but the Holy Spirit is able.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

2 Timothy 3:5 (NLT)
They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!

[UntoHim]

Here is a comprehensive excerpt to give some wider context to the quote of the day I have provided on the homepage. It is a very tough and dry read, but I think it is well worth the time for anyone serious about developing a serious theological/biblical understanding of this matter. In posting this, I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with any part of what Augustine wrote here. Admittedly, Augustine was a man of his time, and no doubt was influenced by the socioreligious dynamics of his day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER XVIII. Faith and Works
Augustine of Hippo
Enchiridion - On Faith, Hope, and Love

There are some, indeed, who believe that those who do not abandon the name of Christ, and who are baptized in his laver in the Church, who are not cut off from it by schism or heresy, who may then live in sins however great, not washing them away by repentance, nor redeeming them by alms--and who obstinately persevere in them to life's last day--even these will still be saved, "though as by fire." They believe that such people will be punished by fire, prolonged in proportion to their sins, but still not eternal.

But those who believe thus, and still are Catholics, are deceived, as it seems to me, by a kind of merely human benevolence. For the divine Scripture, when consulted, answers differently. Moreover, I have written a book about this question, entitled Faith and Works, in which, with God's help, I have shown as best I could that, according to Holy Scripture, the faith that saves is the faith that the apostle Paul adequately describes when he says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but the faith which works through love." But if faith works evil and not good, then without doubt, according to the apostle James "it is dead in itself."144 He then goes on to say, "If a man says he has faith, yet has not works, can his faith be enough to save him?"

Now, if the wicked man were to be saved by fire on account of his faith only, and if this is the way the statement of the blessed Paul should be understood--"But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire"146 --then faith without works would be sufficient to salvation. But then what the apostle James said would be false. And also false would be another statement of the same Paul himself: "Do not err," he says; "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the unmanly, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."147 Now, if those who persist in such crimes as these are nevertheless saved by their faith in Christ, would they not then be in the Kingdom of God?

But, since these fully plain and most pertinent apostolic testimonies cannot be false, that one obscure saying about those who build on "the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay, and stubble"--for it is about these it is said that they will be saved as by fire, not perishing on account of the saving worth of their foundation--such a statement must be interpreted so that it does not contradict these fully plain testimonies.

In fact, wood and hay and stubble may be understood, without absurdity, to signify such an attachment to those worldly things--albeit legitimate in themselves--that one cannot suffer their loss without anguish in the soul. Now, when such anguish "burns," and Christ still holds his place as foundation in the heart--that is, if nothing is preferred to him and if the man whose anguish "burns" would still prefer to suffer loss of the things he greatly loves than to lose Christ--then one is saved, "by fire." But if, in time of testing, he should prefer to hold onto these temporal and worldly goods rather than to Christ, he does not have him as foundation--because he has put "things" in the first place--whereas in a building nothing comes before the foundations.

Now, this fire, of which the apostle speaks, should be understood as one through which both kinds of men must pass: that is, the man who builds with gold, silver, and precious stones on this foundation and also the man who builds with wood, hay, and stubble. For, when he had spoken of this, he added: "The fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abides which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burns up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." Therefore the fire will test the work, not only of the one, but of both.

The fire is a sort of trial of affliction, concerning which it is clearly written elsewhere: "The furnace tries the potter's vessels and the trial of affliction tests righteous men." This kind of fire works in the span of this life, just as the apostle said, as it affects the two different kinds of faithful men. There is, for example, the man who "thinks of the things of God, how he may please God." Such a man builds on Christ the foundation, with gold, silver, and precious stones. The other man "thinks about the things of the world, how he may please his wife"; that is, he builds upon the same foundation with wood, hay, and stubble. The work of the former is not burned up, since he has not loved those things whose loss brings anguish. But the work of the latter is burned up, since things are not lost without anguish when they have been loved with a possessive love. But because, in this second situation, he prefers to suffer the loss of these things rather than losing Christ, and does not desert Christ from fear of losing such things--even though he may grieve over his loss--"he is saved," indeed, "yet so as by fire." He "burns" with grief, for the things he has loved and lost, but this does not subvert nor consume him, secured as he is by the stability and the indestructibility of his foundation.

It is not incredible that something like this should occur after this life, whether or not it is a matter for fruitful inquiry. It may be discovered or remain hidden whether some of the faithful are sooner or later to be saved by a sort of purgatorial fire, in proportion as they have loved the goods that perish, and in proportion to their attachment to them. However, this does not apply to those of whom it was said, "They shall not possess the Kingdom of God," unless their crimes are remitted through due repentance. I say "due repentance" to signify that they must not be barren of almsgiving, on which divine Scripture lays so much stress that our Lord tells us in advance that, on the bare basis of fruitfulness in alms, he will impute merit to those on his right hand; and, on the same basis of unfruitfulness, demerit to those on his left--when he shall say to the former, "Come, blessed of my Father, receive the Kingdom," but to the latter, "Depart into everlasting fire."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
~

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Matthew 7:21-23
The Great White Throne judgment is also referred to as the "day of judgment" or the "last day" in scripture.

Did you know that many verses refer to "that day" as the second coming of the Lord and the Judgment Seat of Christ?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Did you know that many verses refer to "that day" as the second coming of the Lord and the Judgment Seat of Christ?

Yes but Jesus also uses the term "that day" to refer to the final judgment in Luke 10:12.

Luke 10:11-12
But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you.
Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

I hope we all are in agreement that the residents of Sodom who were known for raping outsiders (Gen 19:5) and neglecting the poor (Ezekiel 16:49-50) are not going to make it to the Bema Seat judgment and later inherit the eternal kingdom of God.

So "that day" has also been used as a reference to the Great White Throne judgment and Jude 1:7 confirms the residents of Sodom are headed for the lake of fire.

Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

The entire context of Matthew 7 leading up to verses 21-23 points to the day of final judgment.

Matthew 7:13 (NLT)
“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.

Matthew 7:19-20 (NLT)
So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

Based on the context, there is no reason to associate Matthew 7:22 with the Bema seat judgment and Jesus' words "I never knew you, depart from me" echo the final judgment that the false believers who called him "Lord" never belonged to Jesus and were never his sheep. In Matthew 7:20, Jesus said you can identify people by their fruit and these false believers were workers of lawlessness who produced bad fruit from bad trees while claiming to be good trees. They were never born again and their insides reflected their father the devil.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Augustine

It is not incredible that something like this should occur after this life, whether or not it is a matter for fruitful inquiry. It may be discovered or remain hidden whether some of the faithful are sooner or later to be saved by a sort of purgatorial fire, in proportion as they have loved the goods that perish, and in proportion to their attachment to them. However, this does not apply to those of whom it was said, "They shall not possess the Kingdom of God," unless their crimes are remitted through due repentance. I say "due repentance" to signify that they must not be barren of almsgiving, on which divine Scripture lays so much stress that our Lord tells us in advance that, on the bare basis of fruitfulness in alms, he will impute merit to those on his right hand; and, on the same basis of unfruitfulness, demerit to those on his left--when he shall say to the former, "Come, blessed of my Father, receive the Kingdom," but to the latter, "Depart into everlasting fire."

This is an interesting take on the purgatory concept from Augustine and maybe as far as you can take it without violating what is clearly shown in scripture. Augustine's writings reflect the early church's understanding of warnings concerning the kingdom of God as being eternal and not temporary in nature. The early church fathers were commanded by the original Apostles to carefully follow their teaching and not to deviate from it for fear that leaven would creep into the church. Because of this, it is nearly impossible for any of the Apostles to have held to the millennial kingdom exclusion idea as described by Govett, Lang and Panton, so this doctrine would be more akin to the leaven that the Apostles warned against.

Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Galatians 5:9
A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough

[bearbear]

I asked ChatGPT-4o for a brief summary of Augustine's writings on Faith and Works shared by UntoHim earlier for easier reading.
It is interesting how the issue that we are now discussing also arose in early 5th century church history.

Can you give a brief summary of Augustine's writings here "(Text)":

In this passage, Augustine addresses a theological question about the salvation of Christians who live sinful lives without repentance. He challenges the belief held by some that such individuals will be saved through a purgatorial fire due to their faith alone, despite their persistent sins.

Augustine asserts that this belief is flawed and not supported by Scripture. He emphasizes that true saving faith must be accompanied by good works, as described by the apostle Paul and James. He argues that faith without works is dead and that those who live in sin, such as fornicators and idolaters, will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

He interprets Paul's statement about being "saved through fire" as referring to a purifying trial in this life, where believers may suffer loss and grief over worldly attachments but ultimately remain faithful to Christ. Augustine suggests that this fire tests the quality of each person's works—whether they are valuable (gold, silver, precious stones) or perishable (wood, hay, stubble).

Augustine allows for the possibility of a purgatorial fire after this life, but only for those whose sins do not disqualify them from the Kingdom of God, and who have shown repentance and almsgiving. He concludes that without repentance, even those with faith will not be saved.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yes but Jesus also uses the term "that day" to refer to the final judgment in Luke 10:12

Yes, but what is interesting is that you do not quote any of the instances where it refers to THE great day, the greatest day in all history, the revelation of Christ from heaven, His second coming: revealing and manifesting Himself in all His glory, coming to judge the Antichrist, False Prophet, the armies of the world, the Nations, resurrecting, judging and rewarding His saints and establishing His Kingdom on the earth.

I can show you why Matt. 7:22 is "that day," the Judgement Seat of Christ if you are interested. Are you interested?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, but what is interesting is that you do not quote any of the instances where it refers to THE great day, the greatest day in all history, the revelation of Christ from heaven, His second coming: revealing and manifesting Himself in all His glory, coming to judge the Antichrist, False Prophet, the armies of the world, the Nations, resurrecting, judging and rewarding His saints and establishing His Kingdom on the earth.

I can show you why Matt. 7:22 is "that day," the Judgement Seat of Christ if you are interested. Are you interested?

I was thinking more about it yesterday and I'm also open to the possibility that if Matthew 7:21-23 was the Judgment Seat of Christ, it could mean that false believers get an earlier judgment and are sent to outer darkness or hell in preparation for the final judgment, the lake of fire. In that sense it could be an earlier "final judgment". This seems to be what's happening in Luke 12:46. The unbelievers are not yet in the lake of fire at the second coming but they could be in hell or outer darkness.

Luke 12:46 (KJV)
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Looking at this more, you could be right that it refers to the judgment at the second coming. In the parable of the talents the worthless servant is judged at the same time as the faithful servants.

Matthew 25:30
And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Notice that the servant is labeled "worthless". We throw worthless things into the trash just the same as what Jesus is doing. If the servant had a chance of inheriting eternal life, he would not be worthless

Jesus also refers to hell as the garbage dump Gehenna in Mark 9:47 just like what is happening in Matthew 25:30.

I guess I had been indoctrinated by my LC background to associate the Bema Seat judgment with only positive rewards. Thank you for leading me to realize the Bema Seat judgment could also result in judgment of false believers to an eternity away from God.

Would you care to interact with the context leading up to Matthew 7:22? Would you agree that Matthew 7:14 and Matthew 7:19 are referring to the final judgment leading up to the lake of fire?

Jesus says you can tell a tree based on its fruit just before Matthew 7:21-23 and in this passage he then gives an example of trees claiming to be good by calling Him "Lord, Lord", but by being workers of lawlessness are producing bad fruit and revealed to be bad trees whose end is to be burned according to Matthew 7:19

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:21 fits perfectly with Matthew 7:19 and the merged verse would convey the same meaning:

"Not everyone who claims to be a good tree will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who actually bears good fruit and shows that they are a good tree"

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by bearbear

When you become born again, God changes your heart so that you will love the things he loves and hate the things he hates so it gradually becomes easier to live in holiness because it becomes your desire to live righteously through the Holy Spirit. Without an inward change it is impossible to live holy lives. The law is not enough to change us but the Holy Spirit is able.

I believe Witness Lee took the concept of the eternal security of salvation to an extreme. He taught that a simple audible call upon the name of Jesus guarantees eternal salvation. This shifted the focus away from the redemption through Christ's death, true repentance, and lifelong belief and trust in the Lord to a more sensual dispensing of divine life into the human spirit.

As a result, there may be individuals in the LC who have never heard and experienced the true saving grace of God through the Holy Spirit that enables us to live holy lives.

I think discussions about the way of salvation are important topics for both former and current members alike. Personally, while not directly related to the LC or this forum, some stories of near-death experiences remind me of the seriousness of becoming a disciple of Christ and committing one's life to doing God's will, which is not what Witness Lee taught.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I was thinking more about it yesterday and I'm also open to the possibility that if Matthew 7:21-23 was the Judgment Seat of Christ, it could mean that false believers get an earlier judgment and are sent to outer darkness or hell in preparation for the final judgment, the lake of fire. In that sense it could be an earlier "final judgment".

This is impossible: A false believer, (an unbeliever that has the appeareance of a believer, but is not a believer) will not appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. Only believers will appear at the JSoC. There is no such thing as "an earlier judgement" for unbelievers.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

This is impossible: A false believer, (an unbeliever that has the appeareance of a believer, but is not a believer) will not appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. Only believers will appear at the JSoC. There is no such thing as "an earlier judgement" for unbelievers.

I think we both believe that many will be thrown into outer darkness during this judgement. I use the word many since Jesus says “many” will come to me on that day in Matthew 7:21-23. In contrast Jesus also says that few will be saved in Matthew 7:13-13. Hence, it logically follows that most are revealed to not be saved in this judgment since “many” is larger than “few”. This also matches Jesus’ warning that many are called but few are chosen in Matthew 22:14 when the undressed wedding guest was thrown into outer darkness.

So kingdom exclusionists could be right about the sequence of events leading up to the great white throne judgment. However they are wrong in that not only are the false believers excluded from the millennial kingdom but they could also be thrown into the lake of fire 1000 years later at the white throne judgment. Jesus totally disowns them in Matthew 7:21-23 and in Matthew 25:1-13 in the parable of the wise virgins saying “I never knew you”. They were not his sheep and did not belong to him (John 10:14).

This seems to be what is being described in Matthew 13 as the weeds who were hard to tell from the wheat are getting separated just like in the sheep and goats judgment in Matthew 25. The weed who are masquerading as wheat are then burned in the lake of fire just like the goats were who felt entitled to enter heaven but were denied and ended up with everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46). I’m not saying these are the same events but the same theme appears to be playing out. There is no indication in scripture from Genesis to Revelation that God ever saves or accepts the worship of hypocrites who do not repent and continue in lawlessness.

Indeed we see an example of “kingdom exclusion” from the eternal kingdom of God as the angels remove the weeds “out from his Kingdom” to be burned in everlasting fire in Matthew 13

Matthew 13:36-43

“Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.” Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!”

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I think we both believe that many will be thrown into outer darkness during this judgement. I use the word many since Jesus says “many” will come to me on that day in Matthew 7:21-23. In contrast Jesus also says that few will be saved in Matthew 7:13-13.

You are mixing too many things, too many scenarios and they are not the same. You are missing the nuances and details. It´s better to go slowly, point by point, one by one. The point that I was making is that the Judgement Seat of Christ is only for believers.

So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:9-10

Can you see that point, that the JSoC is only for believers?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Raptor

You are mixing too many things, too many scenarios and they are not the same. You are missing the nuances and details. It´s better to go slowly, point by point, one by one. The point that I was making is that the Judgement Seat of Christ is only for believers.

So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:9-10

Can you see that point, that the JSoC is only for believers?

When Paul says that "all" will appear before the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5:10, he may primarily be addressing believers in his audience. However, this does not logically exclude unbelievers or false believers from this judgment. The passage emphasizes that all will receive recompense for deeds done, whether good or bad. This theme aligns with Paul's description of the "day of God's wrath when His righteous judgment will be revealed" in Romans 2:5-11:

Romans 2:5-12
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Just as in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "each person" will be repaid according to what they have done. Those who persist in doing good, through being born again, are rewarded with eternal life. Those who follow evil will receive "wrath and anger." This latter group, following evil, cannot be the followers and sheep of Jesus, to whom He gives eternal life, as stated in John 10:27-28.

John 10:27-28
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand

In Romans 2:12, Paul asserts that these followers of evil will "perish apart from the law." In contrast, those who have the hope of inheriting eternal life will "not perish" (John 3:16).

Therefore, it is clear that the judgment seat of Christ includes both true believers and false believers, with each receiving recompense according to their deeds.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

This is impossible: A false believer, (an unbeliever that has the appeareance of a believer, but is not a believer) will not appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. Only believers will appear at the JSoC. There is no such thing as "an earlier judgement" for unbelievers.

"Earlier" being the time of the Lord's 2nd coming? Before the Millennium?

Then what about the "goats" in Matthew 25.41-56?

It is my thought that all the believers will be judged by the Lord first in the air (I Cor 15.51-52; I Thess 4.16-17; 2 Cor 5.10; Rom 14.10)

Once the Lord touches the earth, then judgment begins with all the unbelievers. Some will be rewarded as the "nations" and "inherit the kingdom" (Matt 25.34) and others will be judged with "eternal fire."

Comments?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

When Paul says that "all" will appear before the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5:10, he may primarily be addressing believers in his audience. However, this does not logically exclude unbelievers or false believers from this judgment. The passage emphasizes that all will receive recompense for deeds done, whether good or bad. This theme aligns with Paul's description of the "day of God's wrath when His righteous judgment will be revealed" in Romans 2:5-11:

Paul says "For we must all." The context determines the antecedent of "we," clearly referring to the "saints in Achaia" (2 Cor 1.1)

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul says "For we must all." The context determines the antecedent of "we," clearly referring to the "saints in Achaia" (2 Cor 1.1)

Saying all people in group "A" will attend a meeting consisting of groups A and B doesn't logically mean that the meeting will consist exclusively of group A.

In Revelation 14:14-20 it seems that the true believers take part in the first harvest which may point to the first bodily resurrection but the rest will participate in the grape harvest leading to God's wrath where their corpses remain on earth awaiting the second resurrection at the great white throne. They appear to happen very closely together so it's not unlikely that both harvests of souls will be judged closely together or at the same time.

Revelation 14:14-16
Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man. He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

Revelation 14:17-20
After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

"Earlier" being the time of the Lord's 2nd coming? Before the Millennium? Then what about the "goats" in Matthew 25.41-56? It is my thought that all the believers will be judged by the Lord first in the air (I Cor 15.51-52; I Thess 4.16-17; 2 Cor 5.10; Rom 14.10). Once the Lord touches the earth, then judgment begins with all the unbelievers. Some will be rewarded as the "nations" and "inherit the kingdom" (Matt 25.34) and others will be judged with "eternal fire." Comments?

Yes, it´s very complicated. There will be several judgments at the Lord´s coming, depending on many factors, for example: whether a person is a dead or a living regenerated believer, or an unbeliever, or alive and either Nations or Jew, or an angel or demon, or before or after Millenial (and I´m probably missing something.) This is what I see so far in this order:

Before Millenial
Judgment Seat of Christ: in the air, only for all regenerated believers, so the dead and resurrected saints or the raptured alive saints. Rewards or suffering and loss, recognition or discipline (1 Cor. 3:12-15, I Cor. 15.51-52, 2 Cor. 5:10, I Thess 4.16-17, 1 Thess. 5:13-17, 2 Thess 2:1, 1 Pet. 4:17, Rev. 11:18b, 14:14-16)
The Heavenly Court and the One seated on the horse: Antichrist and False Prophet: judged, caught and thrown alive directly into the lake of fire (Dan. 7:10c, 26. 2 Thess. 2:8, Rev. 19:19-20).
Glorious Throne: on the earth, sheep and goats, living Nations (not regenerated) are judged by their works during the age of Tribulation. Good workers, righteous, "good fish" rewarded with inheritance of the Kingdom and entrance into eternal life, being the Nations during the Millenial. Bad workers, living tares, "bad fish" are judged with eternal fire and punishment in the lake of fire (Matt. 13:40,42, 47-51, 25:31-46).
Twelve Thrones: apostles judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matt. 19:28)
Saints: world and angels judged by saints (1 Cor. 6:2,3, 2 Pet. 2.4?, Jude 1:6?) (what does this mean ).

After Millenial
Fire: Deceived Nations and Devil: last rebellios Nations killed by fire and devil thrown into lake of fire (Rev. 20:9-10).
Great White Throne: all the rest of the dead throughout history including those that died during the Millenial. All the dead in the sea (Matt. 8:29 demons?) and those in Hades are judged according to their deeds and the Book of Life. If not in the Book, then into the lake of fire, Death and Hades into lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15).

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I believe Witness Lee took the concept of the eternal security of salvation to an extreme. He taught that a simple audible call upon the name of Jesus guarantees eternal salvation. This shifted the focus away from the redemption through Christ's death, true repentance, and lifelong belief and trust in the Lord to a more sensual dispensing of divine life into the human spirit.

As a result, there may be individuals in the LC who have never heard and experienced the true saving grace of God through the Holy Spirit that enables us to live holy lives.

I think discussions about the way of salvation are important topics for both former and current members alike. Personally, while not directly related to the LC or this forum, some stories of near-death experiences remind me of the seriousness of becoming a disciple of Christ and committing one's life to doing God's will, which is not what Witness Lee taught.

Agreed. A turning point for me was realizing that many verses that were also mentioned in the LCs are actually describing being born again and not just sanctification. Much of evangelical Christianity (including my pastor of a non-denominational bible church) also shares this understanding and we in the LCs somehow missed the memo..

Someone who believes in divine facts about Jesus but lives the same as they did prior is not actually born again. To be born again you actually have to trade your old life which was controlled by sin for a new life which is controlled by the Holy Spirit. It is an exchange and when evangelicals say "give your life to Jesus", they are referring to this. It was hiding under our nose all along because the very sacrament of baptism represents dying to our old life and being reborn as a new creation in Christ. Just as Israel was freed from slavery under Pharoah after crossing the Red Sea, so too are Christians freed from being enslaved to sin after being born again and controlled by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Colossians 3:9-10
Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Ephesians 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.