Witness Lee vs Baptists

[alwayscurious]

How does Witness Lee differ from other Baptists? (aside from the well-known yet strangely vague and non-concrete ideas/beliefs about the "economy" of God and the ground of "oneness" as Lee and the LC put it)

I have mostly mentally checked out from much of the LC for the past 2 years but since I'm in college and about to finish out in a year, I have began to think of finally starting to meet in Baptist churches and perhaps even attend a Theological Seminary sometime in the future (not sure when but definitely not the FTTA).

A bit lost on how to approach all this, it's as if my mind is unraveling the idea of fully leaving the LC, and as a church kid who grew up in Anaheim, this undoubtedly means losing most if not nearly all of my close friends, connections, and people I care about (and have really become family to me in the span of 21 years) in the coming years...

[TLFisher]

Alwayscurious, my family and I met with a baptist church from 2008-2009/2010. There were similarities. Much like Holy Word for Morning Revival, the baptist church had their ministry publication used for a Sunday school format prior to the sermon. It seems rather transitional for ones coming into the Local Churches into Baptist or vice versa Baptist into the Local Churches. It is baptism by immersion that is practiced.
This baptist church has since dropped the baptist name and is now a Community church. My experience there had been more a burden for community than you would find in a Local church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

How does Witness Lee differ from other Baptists? (aside from the well-known yet strangely vague and non-concrete ideas/beliefs about the "economy" of God and the ground of "oneness" as Lee and the LC put it)
.

Many similarities there, in fact, the original views of a federation of local assemblies / churches drew on Baptist ecclesiastical principals. Both the Plymouth Brethren and the Recovery began this way. Over time, however, they both morphed into a controlling structure similar to the Anglicans and the Catholics, with one ruler at the top.

The Baptist’s are fundamental evangelistic Christians concerning the faith. The flavor of each church determined by the leaders. Many Baptist churches are great communities of believers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Baptist’s are fundamental evangelistic Christians concerning the faith. The flavor of each church determined by the leaders. Many Baptist churches are great communities of believers.

I'd agree, that there's a variety. There are local strongholds run by mini-satraps (unquestioned and even abusive leadership), almost personality cults. Charisma in the worst sense. Many are more pluralistic and open to individual and personal leadings of the Holy Spirit.

I grew up in the Baptist denomination, in teenage went "into the world" and then began seeking a renewal of my spiritual path and was drawn into the Local Church, impressed by commitment to Protestant principles (e.g., many familiar Protestant hymns) and by the "mystical" bent of subjective communion with Christ.

After leaving the LC, I went to a more rigorously-adherent group. All women wore head coverings, no women spoke in group meetings but only at home with husbands, no musical instruments and so on. After a while, I began meeting with the Baptists again, now (years later) I am more open to all believers - all people, really - but less inclined to be "organized" by someone who is well-meaning but ignorant.

So, I think that if you ask the question to 20 ex-LC members, you'd get 20 different answers. Everyone has their own spiritual journey.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

I have mostly mentally checked out from much of the LC for the past 2 years but since I'm in college and about to finish out in a year, I have began to think of finally starting to meet in Baptist churches and perhaps even attend a Theological Seminary sometime in the future (not sure when but definitely not the FTTA).

A bit lost on how to approach all this, it's as if my mind is unraveling the idea of fully leaving the LC, and as a church kid who grew up in Anaheim, this undoubtedly means losing most if not nearly all of my close friends, connections, and people I care about (and have really become family to me in the span of 21 years) in the coming years...

As a church kid who grew up in Anaheim, you face the void if you look away from the LC. Your whole being was constructed, brick by muddy brick, around this entity... I saw pre-verbal children being coaxed to "call on the Lord", complete with fist pumps. So you are trying to unravel a lot. Take your time, be careful & thoughtful, go slow, stay safe. God will be with you every step. Many times you won't perceive it, but when all seems lost, help will arrive and you will continue the journey.

The danger of leaving LC blinders behind is that we instinctively and reflexively look for new blinders to put on. God will indeed put you on a narrow way, but assuredly it won't match your preconceptions of what that should look like. See how many times the disciples were "amazed beyond all measure." If your journey doesn't contain such astonishment as your concepts crumble and new worlds open, then I'd question it, asking why you're so resolutely comfortable.

In Psalm 119 (NIV) it says, "I run in the pathways of Your command/You have set my heart free." The juxtaposition is of being shut in by God, constrained on the narrow way, and then whole universes open! So amazing... the way of sin is the way of death, but the way of obedience opens new vistas. It's always there, but disobedience and disconnect kept it hidden. Only obedience opens up freedom.

And only Jesus Christ fulfilled this - we were disobedient, shut up in sin, but then by the miracle of faith we saw His obedience, his "broad place", and we were suddenly transferred, with Him, into the Land of the Living (see, e.g., Psa 27).

[aron]

To rephrase post #4, it's not unimportant where you meet or with whom you meet, as a believer. But all of us have unique journeys - what family and family culture we're from, our socioeconomic status, our (dis)abilities, and what circumstances we're in. For example, a person in a sparsely-populated area will have different choices of "where to meet" vs someone in a small village, vs another in a large urban area. God knows all of this, and placed you where you are.

Irrespective of circumstances, however, each of us is responsible for developing the narrative of our journey. Not Pastor Bob at the Community Church, not Witness Lee, not our parents or peers. My own take on the gospel story is that Jesus is/was the Spotless Obedient Lamb of God. He said, "I came to do the Father's will." Everything he did and said was the Father's will, made flesh. He was the Word (God's spoken command) made physically manifest, dwelling among us. And now, just as he obeyed the Father, so we're supposed to obey him - see, e.g., John 15:9-12. My sense is that both relationships in John 15 are predicated on obedience. "Just as I do 'x', so you also do 'x'" - they're presented as an equivalent pair.

Part B of my narrative, the practical working-out part, is God's economy as practiced and taught by the NT principals, starting from and building upon Jesus. Paul took Jesus' core teaching of "do unto others" and "when I was hungry you fed me" and made it the new ecclesiastical standard, using it as a thematic bridge in uniting the gentile and Jewish wings of the church. See Ephesians 2 for Paul's view of his core mission. Then Paul spends 2 chapters in 2 Corinthians (chaps 8 & 9) on this practical outworking of the gospel, as well as considerable portions of other writings.

Jesus' teaching was, "Give to those who cannot repay you, and your reward will be great in heaven." That's God's economy according to Jesus. With that view in mind, we look at the charge of the Jerusalem leaders to Paul to "remember the poor", to which he replied that he was eager to do so, and then at the end of Acts (24:17) he's back "with alms for my nation". And then we see the remonstrances in his epistles to set aside something for the poor of Jerusalem.

The revealed NT pattern of the community of grace is that it's our vehicle to collectively do "good works" for those who can't repay us. I believe that's how Paul and the NT disciples saw themselves following Jesus. The Master went around doing good works, according to Acts 10:38, and the thematic NT charge is that we're to obey him in this, just as he was obeying the Father. If we do so, we fulfil the Royal Law to love one another (James 2:8). When you read James' and Paul's writings in this light, it looks as though both are presenting the same gospel. It is God's love manifested.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

...
I have mostly mentally checked out from much of the LC for the past 2 years but since I'm in college and about to finish out in a year, I have began to think of finally starting to meet in Baptist churches and perhaps even attend a Theological Seminary sometime in the future (not sure when but definitely not the FTTA).

A bit lost on how to approach all this, it's as if my mind is unraveling the idea of fully leaving the LC, and as a church kid who grew up in Anaheim, this undoubtedly means losing most if not nearly all of my close friends, connections, and people I care about (and have really become family to me in the span of 21 years) in the coming years...

Today I have been "out" of the Local Church of Witness Lee longer than I was "in" it. Since that time I have not replaced "it" with another "church".

I've said this on this forum many times, but, among Christians today I think there is far too much emphasis on "church", and finding the "right church" and how to do church "right".

I fellowship with other Christians on a regular basis. I have attended other organized Christian groups from time to time, but I was never led by the Lord to become a permanent part of any group.

My prayer from the day I walked away has been "Lord, don't let go of me." As such, I have grown to believe that my walk with the Lord, on a very personal basis, is far more important than finding a "church" to replace the one I walked away from.

As believers, knowing the Lord and walking in His light, and obeying his voice, and following Him is all we have ever been charged with. In this light, we won't need to ask questions about which replacement for the LC should I go to.

All organized churches today are organized by man. Witness Lee was right about this. What he did not acknowledge is that his own "Church" was organized by man, too. He organized his own "church". Jumping out of Lee's organization into another organization, without the Lord's leading, can lead to another mistake. What's the alternative?

John 10:27-28 KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This is a pretty amazing verse. Hearing his voice and being known by him and following him...what more could we ask for? It's not about finding another "church". It's about learning to hear his voice...listen to his voice...obey his voice... and.... here's the big one ... following HIM.

The result? Eternal life; never perish; a permanent place in his hand. Do we really need more than this?

If there's a replacement organized church for you, he will let you know. If not, just keep talking to him. Keep listening to his voice. He knows you. Get to know him. Follow him.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

All organized churches today are organized by man. Witness Lee was right about this. What he did not acknowledge is that his own "Church" was organized by man, too. He organized his own "church". Jumping out of Lee's organization into another organization, without the Lord's leading, can lead to another mistake. What's the alternative?
Nell

I have yet to find a church that is willing to venture beyond their prescribed doctrinal subset of the Bible. Members yes, but not the leaders. I have been shut down nearly every time I opened my mouth. Why are leaders so paranoid by members sharing from the scripture? In this regard, other churches simply mimic so much of the bad behavior we discuss concerning the Recovery.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have yet to find a church that is willing to venture beyond their prescribed doctrinal subset of the Bible. Members yes, but not the leaders. I have been shut down nearly every time I opened my mouth. Why are leaders so paranoid by members sharing from the scripture? In this regard, other churches simply mimic so much of the bad behavior we discuss concerning the Recovery.

I suppose I have been blessed, then. The bible study I am currently attending at a self-proclaimed non-denominational church allows for many instances of wrestling with scriptures alongside those who are sitting beside us (we are grouped at several round tables). Even the pastor of that study is open to having his thoughts and statements analyzed and challenged once he's done with whatever he's prepared to give us, and he's often honest in telling us that he doesn't have all the answers and is pretty much in the same boat as us. More than anything, it seems like he tries to drive discussion with questions and prompts rather than simply give a sermon or having us repeat stuff from some ministry book. He views his "sermon" as simply his thoughts on the matter and encourages the attendees to do the share their thoughts with each other to figure it all out together.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

... figure it all out together.

At its best, that's what this forum has been for us, a place to figure it all out together. Occasionally, when disparate voices are woven together as one, it feels supernatural.

Originally Posted by aron

...if we do so, we fulfil the Royal Law to love one another (James 2:8). When you read James' and Paul's writings in this light, it looks as though both are presenting the same gospel. It is God's love manifested.

Back to my point of watching a new interpretation of 'God's economy' unfold in front of me, the most satisfying part was that James and Paul no longer were separated into 'natural' and 'high peak' components. They were saying the same thing: give to those who can't repay you, and you'll be rewarded in the resurrection of the righteous. "As ye do to these the least of my brethren, ye do to me."

In the RecV hermeneutical corpus, one saw a weird dichotomy where the disciples were selling their stuff and giving to widows in the first few chapters of Acts, and the Jerusalem Pillars telling Paul to "remember the poor", and then you had the "high peak mystical stuff" of the indwelling Christ, the ''tea-ification'' and so forth. It was a NT that had been thematically riven asunder, with "high peak" sections contrasted with "low" or "natural concepts" sections. With my new reading, I had a unified whole in front of me. There's one gospel, one Lord, one faith, one baptism...

Others may discover different things as well, I'm giving an example of what may lay ahead, if one's willing to let go of what's behind.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In the RecV hermeneutical corpus, one saw a weird dichotomy where the disciples were selling their stuff and giving to widows in the first few chapters of Acts, and the Jerusalem Pillars telling Paul to "remember the poor", and then you had the "high peak mystical stuff" of the indwelling Christ, the ''tea-ification'' and so forth. It was a NT that had been thematically riven asunder, with "high peak" sections contrasted with "low" or "natural concepts" sections. With my new reading, I had a unified whole in front of me. There's one gospel, one Lord, one faith, one baptism...

Others may discover different things as well, I'm giving an example of what may lay ahead, if one's willing to let go of what's behind.

For me personally, the anointing in the Recovery ended with the Life-Studies in 1984. The New Way, the Crystallization Study, the High Peaks, HWfMR, etc. added nothing. Repeating these messages was basically a waste. Whenever I did speak in the meetings, I had to leave the message doctrine from the handouts and find the anointing in the word. Repeating teachings from Anaheim (or Cleveland) was just tasteless, and mental gymnastics.

[alwayscurious]

Thank you all for the responses. It'll be quite a future trying to break down a lifetime of being told one thing, when in fact, it was mostly never true to begin with.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

Thank you all for the responses. It'll be quite a future trying to break down a lifetime of being told one thing, when in fact, it was mostly never true to begin with.

Amen to that. Despite serving in the college campus, children's meetings, and YP meetings over the last seven years, I've had no contact from just about everyone I once associated with since I left. That's several dozen loved ones, young and old, that I've known all these years. Just one brother who is still in it keeps in contact with me, yet even he is considering leaving. It was "easier" for me in that I was absolutely resolved to leave and break off from them, but not emotionally. I steeled my will and did not falter in my decision to leave once I made it, but my heart was still broken. Still, it was a process that felt like chains being removed. It feels like I've come out of deep waters and can breath again. It also helped to have strong spiritual guidance from family and friends outside of the Recovery. I hope you're able to find strength and healing on this journey of yours.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I suppose I have been blessed, then. The bible study I am currently attending at a self-proclaimed non-denominational church allows for many instances of wrestling with scriptures alongside those who are sitting beside us (we are grouped at several round tables). Even the pastor of that study is open to having his thoughts and statements analyzed and challenged once he's done with whatever he's prepared to give us, and he's often honest in telling us that he doesn't have all the answers and is pretty much in the same boat as us. More than anything, it seems like he tries to drive discussion with questions and prompts rather than simply give a sermon or having us repeat stuff from some ministry book. He views his "sermon" as simply his thoughts on the matter and encourages the attendees to do the share their thoughts with each other to figure it all out together.

Yes, ACF you have been blessed!

Some dear brothers, perhaps sheltered far too long in their own comfort zones, become quite threatened by others’ ideas from the Bible. It exposes their own insecurities as leaders. They may teach that we all are necessary members of the body of Christ, yet become panicked when these other members actually share.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

As a church kid who grew up in Anaheim, you face the void if you look away from the LC. Your whole being was constructed, brick by muddy brick, around this entity... I saw pre-verbal children being coaxed to "call on the Lord", complete with fist pumps. So you are trying to unravel a lot. Take your time, be careful & thoughtful, go slow, stay safe. God will be with you every step. Many times you won't perceive it, but when all seems lost, help will arrive and you will continue the journey.

The danger of leaving LC blinders behind is that we instinctively and reflexively look for new blinders to put on. God will indeed put you on a narrow way, but assuredly it won't match your preconceptions of what that should look like. See how many times the disciples were "amazed beyond all measure." If your journey doesn't contain such astonishment as your concepts crumble and new worlds open, then I'd question it, asking why you're so resolutely comfortable.

alwayscurious,

I hope this doesn't depress you, but I just want to provide a caveat to what aron said, just based on my and others' experiences as church kids who left the LC.

I totally agree with his description about leaving, and about taking time, going slow, staying safe, God will be with you every step, etc... I've seen lots of people who throw EVERYTHING away, live a life the opposite of everything they heard in the LC no matter what it was, and then go through a lot of grief as they circle back later to sort through the good and bad, which, if they had done so initially would have saved them from dealing with lots of additional problems and regrets. So I would say don't throw away everything, but instead, question and examine everything. And it's going to take a lot of time to do this, and it will be exhausting and it will seem never ending. But that way you can take things piece by piece and actually look at them and decide with as clear a head as possible what is good to keep versus what is rotten to discard.

I guess where I want to put in my caveat is on the "when all seems lost help will arrive" as well as say that, frankly, although it is true God will be with you every step, it very well might not feel like it at all. You might feel like He's abandoned you or doesn't see you or is busy with other things and has left you to flounder on your own. This doesn't mean He actually has, but it means you might go through some time, maybe even a long time, where you feel forgotten or forsaken, like David in Psalm 13.

I'm just saying that because for some reason, in the LC, due to the "testimonies" we always heard in the meetings, it was easy to get the impression that things always end up fixed, or God always brings a person just at the right time every time, or any number of those unrealistic situations. But that's not real life. Sometimes God working all things for good takes a long time, or it's a good, but a "hard good". I don't mean to be depressing, but I just want to make sure that you don't feel that familiar "something must be wrong with me" condemnation if you don't experience the "amazed beyond measure" or astonishment or world's opening stuff aron referenced. One "amazed beyond measure" reference is in Mark 7:37, but it's in response to Jesus making the deaf hear and the mute speak. But, our lives are not going to be marked by literal tangible miracles performed right in front of us like that. Sure, I was amazed at how utterly wrong and stupid Lee's teachings turned out to be, and I was amazed at the simplicity and light burden of the real gospel, but it's not like life-after-LC is one amazement beyond measure after another. On the contrary, it can feel a lot like "what on earth do I do now?" instead. The comprehensive nature of the LC means that without it, life might feel weird for quite a while.

And you might find yourself dealing with feelings of loss, grief, betrayal, anger, etc...all of which are reasonable and legitimate.

My point is, it's okay. If you feel any of this hard stuff, it's normal and common, and you can still get through it, and it doesn't mean that God actually has forsaken you. Just don't be discouraged, thinking the problem is you or that you should be doing better already. Hopefully you'll have a bearable time of it, but I felt like I needed to throw in another angle of experience so you know that plenty of church kids struggle after leaving, and it's very normal.

Since you are in college, make the effort to make and keep non-LC friends. Losing an entire group of human connections, even if they were fake and Lee-centered, is a big part of how hard it is to leave. After college, it's all the harder to make new friends, so take advantage of the year you have left to forge connections.

Keep posting on this forum if you need advice, feedback, encouragement, etc.

Trapped

[alwayscurious]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Hopefully you'll have a bearable time of it, but I felt like I needed to throw in another angle of experience so you know that plenty of church kids struggle after leaving, and it's very normal.

Since you are in college, make the effort to make and keep non-LC friends. Losing an entire group of human connections, even if they were fake and Lee-centered, is a big part of how hard it is to leave. After college, it's all the harder to make new friends, so take advantage of the year you have left to forge connections.

Keep posting on this forum if you need advice, feedback, encouragement, etc.

Trapped

Thanks Trapped for the helpful reply. It means a lot knowing others have gone through this in their own journey.

Do you happen to have any type of relationships with ones who are still in the LC? Has anyone kept in touch (perhaps even back then after you left)?

And if you don't mind me asking, how exactly did you leave (aka process perhaps?), and what were the reactions of those who knew you the most back then?