POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm going to bring this post to the top, in hopes there might be some more dialog regarding this specific topic. I don't want to assume because most didn't respond to it, that there was widespread agreement. But I do think love really might be the bottom-line key to what's missing here. What thinkest ye?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Rereading and reflecting on this thread's topic, I have to agree that the source of pretty much all the LC ills originated from WL (aka MOTA). But let me put forth a little different take on it. I've many times said on here that I praise the Lord he brought me to the group (early 70s) and that then He lead me out again a couple decades later. However, what really started my inner change, was the realization that something was seriously absent - it's when He began to show me that God's love for us really was the key motive in all He does.

In the LC, we were taught "God eternal had a purpose . . . spreading to eternal future." That is true, and I praise the Lord for showing us this. But the tone of of this teaching in the LC was not so much centered on God's love, but rather on the idea that God would get His purpose no matter what, and if any of us stood in His way He would flatten us like a pancake. This thought is off, because actually, God's purpose is all wrapped-up in His great love for us! As 2 Peter 3:9 says, The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God is not about achieving His purpose in spite of us - He is doing it because of us!

The light revealing God's love as His main motivator, is no small realization concerning what scripture is actually telling us about Him and His purpose. For me, it was the single biggest leap forward in my understanding of scripture: I believe wholeheartedly that Love is the key to understanding God and the Bible.

So consider what would have happened if love had been the main ingredient in WL's teaching and LC practice - many of the negative issues on this list probably wouldn't have been present at all. Can I get a witness?

[Robert]

Yesterday I spoke to one brother. He shared about children conference. One brother brought video explaining how God createt the world and about bible why we can believe in it. The main problem was after video. Plan was that parents had to pretend unbelievers and children had to prove their faith. Does it says anything to all of You? Do you see similaritu to LR movement? They invest not in reality but in talking about reality. They invest not in oneness but in producing oneness by obedience to teaching. They trust elders rejecting any correction rather than Holly Spirit able to speak directly to heart. If You do not believe in Spirit and think that You are the only and special tool, then it is obvious that you will protect Your idea because You are the center of it. The first lie was in garden of Eden. Do You now what was that? The idea, that Eve can decide by her own! Witness reach for tools obvious and known for every dictator: fear of loosing fellowship being rejected and ignored. For people who was renewed and hoping that we have family and can rely one on another it is really painful. But mature saint is strong enough to follow God rather than man.
It is not a matter of error. The whole idea of church was wrong from the beginning. Bad attitude, bad and unscriptural ideas. I will be so brave to say, they were false teachers. That is it.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Robert

Yesterday I spoke to one brother. He shared about children conference. One brother brought video explaining how God createt the world and about bible why we can believe in it. The main problem was after video. Plan was that parents had to pretend unbelievers and children had to prove their faith. Does it says anything to all of You? Do you see similaritu to LR movement? They invest not in reality but in talking about reality. They invest not in oneness but in producing oneness by obedience to teaching. They trust elders rejecting any correction rather than Holly Spirit able to speak directly to heart. If You do not believe in Spirit and think that You are the only and special tool, then it is obvious that you will protect Your idea because You are the center of it. The first lie was in garden of Eden. Do You now what was that? The idea, that Eve can decide by her own! Witness reach for tools obvious and known for every dictator: fear of loosing fellowship being rejected and ignored. For people who was renewed and hoping that we have family and can rely one on another it is really painful. But mature saint is strong enough to follow God rather than man.
It is not a matter of error. The whole idea of church was wrong from the beginning. Bad attitude, bad and unscriptural ideas. I will be so brave to say, they were false teachers. That is it.

Thanks. So are you saying you think the LC being "false teachers" is the greatest error?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. So are you saying you think the LC being "false teachers" is the greatest error?

In part WL, yes! I think the title of thread is a bit too general. Would be good to separate Witness Lee's person fro idea of Local Churches. Actally In London there are few districts where saints meet together. So idea is one thing but in fact they are in separate districts. Wold be nice if they see this hypocrisy of so strong proclamation about "one church" in one city. So there is one or five?
According to false teaching. Can we reject Peters letters just because of his hypocrisy? Do You think that after Paul rebuked him he repented? Can we laean from it? Yes! Can we judge Peter? No! Can we take something from what Witness saw? Yes! Can we judge his work and words or decision? Yes! If something was wrong or mistake it is not sin to see it and condemn.

Resuming in general: when I see all fruits of what he has done and said, i think nothing will happen if we throw away all these teaching togather with blind following. Just for any case. I thought You catch my line about tools. You can not replaced Holly Spirit's work. I can talk and write books hoping that You will step in my foot prints. But it does not work like this! Paul had hope and prayer only. One planted another add water, but only God can give a growth. That was my point. So if You push me to be more clear and adequate to thread: The biggest mistake of WL was hope and self confidence that he has a tools. He had know how. If You have just 100 saint led by Holly Spirit with different will and level of growth, how Yo can have Know How and create rules and principles! It had to lead to dictatorship. This is exactly against Lord Jesus' pattern- no pattern! Just live! I do not know how it happened and when, but little by little he believed more in himself than in Lord. This is amazing what he was saying and how he was acting. But raelly I am free of judging him permanently as person. May be he was reconciled with God last day and we will see him as overcmer? Do not ask who ascend to heaven... So except few obvious heresies ( God -man, preparing bide to cause Lord come earlier, relying on Holly Spirit that He will do all work for us without coowork, and few others) there was many good things. But remember, that he had read so many books of ancient brothers that even he was pride that he stands n others arms. If so, hen what was realy hi personal revelation. To wake up and check what is actually real, is better to reject all his books and grow in natural way under God's light. If You take photovoltaic panel it will transfer Sun light to cables and than make light in bulb.But is light in bulb Sun? Good servant is rather like a mirror than any transformator. So who care what Paul saw, and John and Peter and Witness?If there is no help and divine revelation causing You better relationship with God then this is vanity. But if in that ministry is something what God uses to bring You closer to Him, praise the Lord! I can find certain hidden thought in many books. On eof You said: we can not deal with it in one shot! But I hope all our thought can help others to deal with past and see what was wrong.

p.S. I found phonecall ercorded in 70's with WL and some brother. It was so nice to hear normal rude brother saying in terrible way" It is not your bussines" Yes, he was simply brother like me who need Grace, Just a sinner saved by grace. I regret that only few can be familiar with this tape. So let him R.I.P and go on! The Bible is base for us , Not WL or WN in XX century. God bless you!

[Awoken]

All of these things listed in the topic are problems but I think they all essentially stem from a lack of humility in front of God. The Lord instructed Moses to take off his sandals when he approached the burning bush because it was sacred ground. I kept thinking about that when things about the LCs started troubling me again. In Asian households you take your shoes off when you come in the house both for purposes of cleanliness and as a sign of respect to the host, so you're not tracking all the dirt from outside all over the place.

In the LCs there is a ton of talk about being "in spirit" but not a lot of talk about being led by the Holy Spirit. You can be "in your spirit" and still be proud as a peacock (see: John and James wanting to call fire down on the unbelievers).

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Awoken

All of these things listed in the topic are problems but I think they all essentially stem from a lack of humility in front of God. The Lord instructed Moses to take off his sandals when he approached the burning bush because it was sacred ground. I kept thinking about that when things about the LCs started troubling me again. In Asian households you take your shoes off when you come in the house both for purposes of cleanliness and as a sign of respect to the host, so you're not tracking all the dirt from outside all over the place.

In the LCs there is a ton of talk about being "in spirit" but not a lot of talk about being led by the Holy Spirit. You can be "in your spirit" and still be proud as a peacock (see: John and James wanting to call fire down on the unbelievers).

Good point, Awoken!
I am full of conclusions but no time really o put all of them here.
Recently I refreshed my contact with saints from Pentacostal Church from my youth. I have sweet memories from that time. When I visited them year ago, I felt like God was there! They are so humble and respectful to Bible and glorifying Lord from heart This hard to explain! How much different it is to pride tone of all LR leaders. They do not preach so much about we are sinners. They lost balance . We have to overcome flesh and sin. But when there are no testimonys about daily life with honest sharing, then we have only theology and empty words about overcoming. I prefer to heave fear of God and not miss That Day, then follow pride current flow and hear from God: Go apart from me... Fear of God is beginning of wisdome. Humility, humility and again humility. When we lose balance then we have such a words from Ron Kangas or Minoru Chan. If You sin against one man, go and apolgize one man. But if You sin against thousands...? I am curious if they will say one day: We were wrong and we are sorry! There is no such a spirit in them!
Ready to spend milions on suing saints? To protect name of organisation? WoW!
So, I am glad You also see this lack there.
This is good lesson for us to bring revelation from God back to Him as promised Isaac. Revelation from God is not to made human movement. It is to build the Body. And even worst thing is, that all I say is written in their books! But they did not apply it!
When I hear Ron or Minoru, theirs speech is so stinking of human power!
Ok. enough. I have to control this holly anger in me.

P.S. To be clear I do not recommend Pentacostal Church the same as any other. i can only recommend saints personally. That was my testimony. You can find churches under same name but so much different. Even here in one city was division in pentacostal church because young people needed drums and loud soulish modern christian music but older silver haired people preferred hymns with words full of meaning and more respectful. Where was Love?
I need real hollines in my life. All those symbols in LC and head full of knowledge did not help me in darkest days in my life. Only verses from Bible.