POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Forcing Gentile converts to adopt Jewish practices is different from the gospel given in the NT. But it's not the only gospel that is different. Suppose Paul had said, "I am the MOTA. Normal rules of accountability like what Jesus taught in Matthew 18 don't apply to me. That's only for the small potatoes." He'd be preaching a different gospel.

You fail to distinguish between falsifying the way of salvation and abusive leadership. Jesus said "I am the way," but with another gospel, the way of salvation is taken away and replaced. In Paul's time that replacement was OT practices such as circumcision. What is "really bad" is when people go to hell because they trusted in dead works and not the blood of Jesus.

I hate to see abusive and fleshly practices by rotten leaders too. There is no way to justify or coverup this stuff. But even Jimmy Swaggert, with his own motel laiazons, still preached the gospel of Christ, believing in the desth and resurrection of Jesus our Savior. These are personal failures that bring shame to His wonderful name, but his followers at least hear good news.

This in no way justifies the sins of ministers. They are held to a higher standard. Discipline for their sins should be made public. But where do we draw the line. If the message of every preacher is discredited by his sin, then there is no more gospel.

[UntoHim]

Ohio,

Yes, the different gospel and the different Jesus that Paul was referring to in Galatians was that of the 1st century Judaizers, and maybe a reference to some others attempting to influence the new believers. But I'm sure you realize that there has been another 2,000 years of church history since. Over the centuries, many false teachers and false prophets have preached another gospel and another Jesus. The different Jesus' started almost immediately after the Lord Jesus' departure, and the different gospels had already been preached during Paul's ministry to the churches. The Lord Jesus warned his disciples "For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray". (Matt 24:5) It seems that Jesus was warning the church about a different Jesus even before Paul. And the apostle Paul warned about another gospel that would be preached after his death: "I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."

I don't know much about that "another gospel" that was preached in first century Galatia. I don't know much about that "another Jesus" that those Judaizes were preaching. What I do know, and what I am referring to, is the another gospel and another Jesus that Witness Lee taught. Unfortunately, I am very familiar with this another gospel that Lee taught, and I am very familiar with this another Jesus that Lee taught. And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Benson Phillips, the president of the Living Stream Ministry, who proclaimed that unless you fully imbibe Lee's gospel and Lee's Jesus, one cannot be sanctified. He also said that anyone who abandons Lee's gospel and Lee's Jesus will never become a great spiritual person. (whatever that means). And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Minoru Chen, the most blended of Blended Brothers. Minoru recently proudly boasted that he was "filled with bother Lee's spirit!" So this is what happens to a person that spends 50+ years imbibing, preaching and teaching Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus. With Minoru, I guess we can ad another another - another spirit. And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Ron Kangas. Brother Ron is so sold out to Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus that he proudly proclaimed that none of the spiritual giants of the past 2,000 years could "match" Witness Lee. That's right...Luther's gospel....no match! Darby's Jesus....no match!

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the message of every preacher is discredited by his sin, then there is no more gospel.

Witness Lee's different gospel and Witness Lee's different Jesus were discredited and debunked by Christian apologists and writers without knowledge or regard for his personal sins. The Daystar debacle has little to nothing to do with the different gospel that Lee preached. Phillip Lee has little to nothing to do with the different Jesus that Lee taught. Take a look at Open-Letter.Com The concerns that are expressed are altogether focused on Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus, and there is no mention of his personal sins. Sorry, but your argument here is without merit.
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[Sons to Glory!]

We've accumulated a number of comments regarding what folks here think is the biggest error. I've quickly gone through this thread and have added a few things (in blue) that people have brought up.

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Preaching a different gospel
14. Preaching a different Jesus
15. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
16. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
17. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
18. The concept of "Recovery"

So there doesn't seem to be any consensus on these things - we seem to be all over the map! Is there maybe a way to consolidate these in some way? That is, have some things on this list occured that are the result of another root cause?

(my vote is those funky, interlocking yellow chairs - somehow I think that's caused the majority of issues!! )

[HERn]

Hi StG!

Does your church have a website? The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is enamored with the local church practices (without the fanatical following of Nee/Lee) and I think he would be interested in learning about your locality.

The reason I'm asking here and not by PM is that members of this site might also be interested.

Thanks for any references or links you may provide.

HERn

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi StG!

Does your church have a website? The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is enamored with the local church practices (without the fanatical following of Nee/Lee) and I think he would be interested in learning about your locality.

The reason I'm asking here and not by PM is that members of this site might also be interested.

Thanks for any references or links you may provide.

HERn

Sure! And if they have any questions, I'll do my best to answer. Scottsdale Church

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Sure! And if they have any questions, I'll do my best to answer. Scottsdale Church

Thanks! I forwarded him the link.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So there doesn't seem to be any consensus on these things - we seem to be all over the map! Is there maybe a way to consolidate these in some way? That is, have some things on this list occured that are the result of another root cause?

The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to.
Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Curious

The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to.
Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

So what you and Aron are saying is the root of much of it is pride and unrepentance?

[UntoHim]

I'm a little afraid that any extensive search for a "root cause" will lead us to be missing the forest for the trees. In the case of this thread, that would be missing out on what are the actual "greatest errors". Furthermore, expanding the list out to include such ostensibly innocuous things such as meeting hall chairs, and even "the concept of recovery", would be taking our eyes off the ball in my view.

For some teaching or practice to be considered "in error", there has to be an established biblical truth or set of truths that the teaching or practice has departed from. All biblical truths are necessarily exclusive. If something is actually a truth, then by definition it is exclusive. If it is true that the sky is blue, then it cannot simultaneously be considered as red.

And this is how I have determined that the greatest error of Witness Lee and his followers is that they have departed from the biblical Gospel, and the biblical Jesus. The historical, biblical Gospel - the irreducible, unassailable, all-sufficient Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Gospel first preached by John the Baptist, then by the Lord Jesus himself, then by first generation apostles and disciples, then by the 2nd generation of disciples and believers, and then by all genuine disciples and believers down through church history until this very day. The true Gospel has two main components: The Giver - God Himself - "For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son". The receiver - "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". Any Christian teacher who takes away from, adds to or distorts in any way, shape or form, this Gospel is preaching another gospel. There is no lower gospel. There is no higher gospel. If one is not preaching and teaching this true Gospel, they are indeed preaching and teaching "another gospel".

Now we come to "another Jesus". At the very heart of the historical, biblical Gospel is the historical, biblical Jesus - The Lord Jesus Christ - the only begotten Son of the Blessed One - the Christ - The Messiah - The Anointed One - The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world - Jesus Christ the Righteous - The Living One who was dead and is now alive forevermore - And his Name is called the Word of God - The historical, biblical Jesus who is presented, described, quoted, loved and hated, praised and scorned, mocked and worshipped, crucified and resurrected, raised from the dead and taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God - the Lord Jesus Christ who is there within the pages of the Gospels. There is no such thing as a true, biblical Jesus apart from the Bible. There is the true Jesus, and there is another Jesus. There is no partially-biblical Jesus. There is no semi-biblical Jesus. There is no extra-biblical Jesus.
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[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

I agree with the above. The root cause is seen in Genesis 3: disobedience, sin, death. The rest of it, including WL creating his own ad hoc theology whose only consistency was that it consistently benefitted his guanxi network, follows. The inability to admit any error and to learn from mistakes, to admit ignorance and learn from others, are part of the theology's course.

[Curious]

May I suggest to UntoHim that we are talking different angles of the same truth. I think aron and I are looking at motivation, and you are looking at the resulting actions of wrong motivation. As the thread is digging for the ‘root’ of the problem, my conviction is that it always starts with motivation.

God promises to give wisdom freely to us, we just need to ask. But when we are off in our heart motivation, our deep hidden real agenda, we go astray and seek wisdom ourselves to prop up our actual goal and miss the voice of wisdom, and her insight. (‘her’ according to proverbs personification of wisdom)

On post 10, Ohio stated the following: ‘At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power’. I agree that all of StG’s 18 points, (except for the yellow chairs), can be chalked up to these two agendas. Only I could vamp the pride one up to grandiosity of self, or pride in its extreme, on the MOTA claim. All control embedded in the 18 points is to facilitate the pride and lust for power, so it’s a motivation but only to serve another, deeper root motivation. Rebellion at the root of the original division, (ie WN’s desire to separate and form his own church), immaturity, (as a permanent, unchanging state, that is), unrepentance, all of these are expressions of, and/or serving the root pair. Pride and lust for power. Even lust for power could be attributed to serving the greater purpose of pride perhaps.

Fully agreed, the tangled-up rabbit-warrens of modalism and other theological errors are very important to unravel . The twisting of the gospel so as to try to support the root agenda, has created much confusion and hurdles for people and need attending to.

As to finding the base root of all this confusion, I put a lot of weight into ‘God judges the heart,’ as it is the source of our direction. When the motivation is about self, as satan’s attempt to elevate himself testify in the 5 ‘I wills’ of the book of Isaiah chapter 14, that’s where the corruption begins. I think it's clear that WN, and certainly WL, are guilty of this error. My own ancestors are guilty of this error, and with the right opportunity, I know myself well enough to see, I am/could become critically at risk of this error too. The lesson is to be wise to know and be wary of this risk.

[UntoHim]

Thanks for your reply Curious, I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. I wanted to repost one of your earlier posts, because I think it kind of illustrates the "truth" that you speak of:

Originally Posted by Curious

You know I was thinking, the core or original error might just be the separation from the established denominations and forming a Christian Church in China that had no accountability or connection to any balanced Christian group. Doing this too soon, without having learned much foundational lessons needed before branching off and separating themselves.
If they had moved towards autonomy gradually, and experienced healthy accountability, (as many protestant denominations have had good systems of internal accountability), they could have grown into something valid and productive.
They became autonomous and independent to 'young', to immature, and too bound to Chinese culture and spirituality. In their rebellion, immaturity and cultural blinkers, they were bound to go astray in a multitude of ways. They missed figuring out what had really happened to cause denominations to be formed in the first place, judging them negatively but not giving it all deeper thought. And they had not dealt with pride, vanity, and egotism first. There was no internal checks and balances to keep things on track. It's therefore no surprise that the superior and exclusive spirit has risen up amongst them, as well as many other human vices.
Its their first steps that set them in a bad direction I'm thinking. Their history that is the first thing to blame.

Excellent and comprehensive treatment of the history of the Local Church movement.

I guess my burden was/is to address the greatest errors in doctrine and teaching. (not so much addressing the practices, although many of the practices are unbiblical and unhelpful at best, and many are actually very harmful in my view) Actually, it's very difficult to judge one's "motivation", even if they straight up tell you what there motivation is. A person, especially a Christian, can have the best of intentions and motivations, yet find themselves totally out of the will of God, and even worse, operating in a manner which is in opposition to the will and purposes of God. One could have the best of intentions and motivations and find themselves teaching and preaching another gospel and another Jesus. How I see it, the actual root of many (most) of the problems we see in the Local Church of Witness Lee have their fundamental roots in the false and heretical teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. All the outward aberrations and errors in practice have their roots in the false teachings, and not the other way around as you brothers have proposed. But hey, maybe it's just two different sides to the very same coin. You guys are probably right. It's not a hill that I'm ready to die on, much less even fight over......now pass the mashed potatoes and gravy!
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[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to. Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. .. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.

I wanted to come back to this. WN started out getting trained in the Christian walk, by someone who'd given up on fellowship, who was so misunderstood that she went solo. WN got under her wing, and there, he chafed under cooperating/submitting with other students. He famously chafed under Leland Wang, who went on to become the "Billy Graham of China" by some accounts. Nee didn't want to go along with Wang, to submit to Wang's leadership. Barber made him do so because Wang was older. I remember Lee writing about this.

Later, Nee got separated from Wang over some manufactured pretense, and took over the Shanghai Church Assembly hall, which Wang had started. Then, suddenly Nee "recovered" authority and submission. Suddenly it's not about your conscience, but unquestioning obedience. Funny how that works. The rebel soul gets in power, suddenly he/she discovers that obedience is paramount.

And more rebellion - Barber had told Nee not to read 'mystics' but he read them anyway. The lure of forbidden fruit was evidently too strong, and pulled him in. Then, he wrote the "Spiritual Man" which was mostly plagiarized J Penn-Lewis. If you read the publisher's note to the 2nd Edition they admit as much. But in China, plagiarizing doesn't have the same onus as the West, and they said that it was a kind of honoring.

So Nee got famous copying a book that he was told not to read... he was, what, 22 years old? Lee said that when he first read something by Nee, he thought he must be some old guy, so spiritual and wise. Oops. Not so... just a young guy showing off. Doesn't the Bible warn us about this?

Then, look at his ideas. All over the place but always they benefit the person of the idea's originator, Mr. Watchman Nee. Just like Lee did years later, where every conference was a chance to tighten the noose a little more. Nee discovered "localism" and pried the Chinese away from the Western influence. Then, he discovered "centralism" and the "Jerusalem Principle". He went 180 degrees and nobody notices? Lee did the same thing. We had to sort "early Lee" with "later Lee" to figure out where we stood v/v his teachings.

And on and on, until Watchman Nee's final confession at the Chinese Communist Show trial. Storms and rebellions and purges. Then Witness Lee brought the circus to the USA. Southern California was a tree ripe for the picking. And off it went again. Immaturity and Rebellion, Mark IV with Confusion and Terror Mark IV to follow. When I came in, they called them "storms" and didn't want to talk about them. Just call O Lord, he'll change your life....it was all about thoughtless conformity. Just be simple, enjoy the riches, brother! But we were following what had all started 80 years earlier with some young Chinese 'rebel' who didn't want to go along, but to strike out on his own. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

Originally Posted by Thrift Books Dot Com

It's hard to believe that Watchman Nee had only been a Christian for a few years and was in his early twenties when he wrote The Spiritual Man. This is the first and only book of any substantial size that Nee himself ever wrote, and it is the most comprehensive treatment of spirit, soul, and body ever written.

Author: Watchman Nee

Cited by: 10

Publish Year: 1968

[Curious]

Wow, I didn't know all that information, though I had some of a picture mainly from other posts on this forum.

So how could I be right in my assessment without even knowing chunks of the actual actions of Watchman Née? The answer is, because humans are predictable. 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' these sayings persevere and continue to be relevant because generally, all humanity is flawed in the same ways. Even those persons in history who have done great things and seemed not to be driven in this way, were often ones who identified and struggled against this tendancy in themselves. I could assess as I have concerning Née and Lee through having learned some basic truths about human nature from other sources, (and processing those with God's help).

I say this to encourage others. What you have learned through your experience of the LC equips you and me to have greater wisdom, understanding, discernment, and perception going forwards. (Though only as you and I sort it out, seperate it from our own reactions to it, and start to see it in a bigger frame of life). Then it becomes our treasure within. What we know and understand protects us henceforth and for the rest of our lives. As well it protects our families and anyone else who may listen to us.

Satan's fall from heaven has similarities with the fall of Adam and Eve. Reaching out to become the glorious one, rather than to worship Him. (... 'You will become like God' ....first step). Its the lie within the LC too. ('I am the center and the meaning of the universe'!.... words of well known LC song). No surprises, it's all very old and predictable. God must be so bored by it all!! And the more you know it, the more you can see it around us, and easily aroused within us too.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ohio,

Witness Lee's different gospel and Witness Lee's different Jesus were discredited and debunked by Christian apologists and writers without knowledge or regard for his personal sins. The Daystar debacle has little to nothing to do with the different gospel that Lee preached. Phillip Lee has little to nothing to do with the different Jesus that Lee taught. Take a look at Open-Letter.Com The concerns that are expressed are altogether focused on Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus, and there is no mention of his personal sins. Sorry, but your argument here is without merit.

Looks like neither you nor Ohio understood, which is perhaps on me, because I tend to state my gut reaction or end point and then enumerate why, at least to my satisfaction. But it often doesn't work, so I'll try again.

The basis of the Christian faith is repentance. In the Bible, humankind is separated by sin. Separated from God, from self, from each other, from creation. The call of the NT gospel is to repent - Jesus and John the Baptist both came out of the desert calling all people to repent. Those who wouldn't repent - scribes, lawyers - were singled out for approbriation.

So where to we find NT scripture to lead us to think this is no more relevant? Where do we see one single special brother or sister, to whom the Matthew 18 rules don't apply? It's not about sin, but about repentance. Where do we see justification for saying, "Brother 'X' is always right, even when he's wrong." Where do we see, "I don't care for right and wrong [read, sin] but only for the sense of life"? Ohio brings up Jimmy Swaggert... good example, actually: suppose Witness Lee and Philip Lee had publicly repented, with tears, like JS did? Then there might be some hope for this movement. They did not, and there is none. It is a different gospel. Suppose WL and son Timothy sat down in front of the church, post-Daystar, and said, "The money's gone. Here's what happened." .. and gave a full accounting, transparent? Then there might be hope for their gospel. They did not, and there is none. Until there is repentance there is no hope.

Suppose Jimmy Swaggert, post-exposure, had buried or relocated the involved parties, run all the witnesses out of town as "rebels", and terrorised the church not to speak of his affairs? Then he'd be preaching a different gospel. Not the gospel of Jesus Christ but the gospel of self. Just like WL did.

That's why all the open letters about theology don't really impress me. They are not wrong, but they are unnecessary. I don't care how many apologists like Hank H they dredge up to say it's just a misunderstanding, if we just realize what is meant by 'persons' and 'energies' and 'essences' then it's all good. No, Hank, it's not all good. It's all bad.