POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Since the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the very heart and the root of the Christian faith, it stands to reason that any significant departure from, much less perversion of, this Gospel will lead any group of believers - no matter how sincere - into a system of error. Witness Lee taught that he had a "higher gospel". We should have all known that this was in error. Unfortunately, most of us were gullible babes, silly little "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Eph 4:14) Most of us were pretty clueless, and decidedly and blissfully ignorant of the danger we got ourselves in to. Before we knew what hit us, we were singing at the top of our lungs "Oh I'm a man, I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"

So what's the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church? Well, maybe the greatest error was a "different gospel"....and from this different gospel sprung forth all the errors we have been talking about. From this different gospel came forth a "different Jesus". From this different gospel came forth erroneous teachings, understandings and views about God and about Man. As I noted a little earlier in this thread, when you get the nature and character of God wrong, you really don't know God at all. What you really know is a mere caricature of God - a distorted and erroneous counterfeit of the true God, the creator of heaven and earth. What you really know is a different Jesus, a mere caricature of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself up for us at the cross. What you really know is not the Spirit of Truth, our only hope of ever being guided into the truth, but a caricature of the Holy Spirit, which is another spirit, the spirit of error.(1 Jn 4:6) And this is why our discussions about the trinity and modalism are so very important. Lee got God wrong. Lee got Jesus wrong. Lee got the Spirit wrong. Lee got Man wrong. Lee got the church wrong. Oh dear Lord Jesus, have mercy on us! Lead us into all truth. Your Word is truth. Only your Word is truth. Save us from any system of error. Wake us from our stupor.
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That's interesting. And back in the time of the 60s and 70s, as babes, with a fresh experience of the Spirit flowing through us - we were all probably a little ga-ga with WL saying it was a higher, mo-better gospel! So we swallowed and kept swallowing the whole thing.

And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?

Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
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Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:16-21)

Compare and contrast this Gospel with the gospel of Witness Lee.

If you think the Lee's gospel is the same, I will ask you to supply us with many quotes of Lee over the past 30-40 years of his ministry that comport with the passage I have quoted above. If you cannot easily do this, well then I would say that this is the answer to your question.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:16-21)

Compare and contrast this Gospel with the gospel of Witness Lee.

If you think the Lee's gospel is the same, I will ask you to supply us with many quotes of Lee over the past 30-40 years of his ministry that comport with the passage I have quoted above. If you cannot easily do this, well then I would say that this is the answer to your question.
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I have seen a lot of commercials on TV recently with Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham. I thought he was preaching the true gospel, and when I heard him, I would pray for others to believe his message. Now I wonder.

His message did not exactly match the verses above. It was quite different.

Are you now saying that his brief gospel message on TV was a "different gospel?"

[aron]

I don't know about Frank Graham, but WL preached a different gospel. Anytime Matthew 18 principles are overturned and new principles like "drunken Noah" are inserted, it's a different gospel.

There are a lot of pseudo Christian groups like this. The founder/leader cannot, by definition, be wrong. So evils are done in the leader's name, and overlooked. Anyone who points out the obvious is condemned and expelled.

In this, they clearly "hate the light" as UntoHim's quote of John 3 says.

[Ohio]

There is an astronomical difference between "preaching another gospel" for salvation and the abusive authoritarian LSM practices that undermine Biblical principles like Matthew 18, I Cor 6, or I Tim 5. They are two different worlds. Ask Apostle Paul. He only referred to the Judaizers as those who brought "another" gospel, a "different" Spirit, or "another" Jesus. To be clear, Paul was referring to the OT practices of circumcision, Sabbath, Kosher, holidays, etc.

Characterizing WL in this way goes beyond the scripture. Paul did not condemn all his opponents in this way, and neither should we. If so, then Peter in Galatians 2 is a cult leader with another gospel. This is similar to labeling all those that we disagree with as being in a cult. I have never met with a church that was not at one time labeled a cult, heretical, etc. but Christians tend to reserve "another gospel" for the likes of Mormons and JW's.

Even Peter's gospel message in Acts 2 and Acts 3 do not look like John's gospel message in John 3. Ask Boxjobox. John speaks of Jesus as God, the Only Begotten Son, while Peter speaks of a man, who died for us, and was raised from from the dead. Peter demands repentance while John demands believing. Sound real "different."

So is the book of John or the book of Acts the real gospel, and which is "another" gospel? Which is the real Jesus, and which is "another" Jesus? Can I get saved thru the message of Acts 2 and 3, or must I get saved thru the message of John 3? Or are they both bad, and I must get saved thru the message of Romans 10?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

The context for Paul's use of this phrase "different gospel" was the Judaizers message who preached that we must be circumcised in order to be saved. This occurred in Antioch resulting in the Acts 15 council. This happened to the Galatian believers who were subsequently lost. This was a constant struggle in the Gentile world after they heard Paul's gospel. Nearly every book of the NT shows the struggle between the true gospel of grace, and the "different gospel" brought by the Judaizers.