POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

15. Those worthless golden yellow interlocking chairs.

YES! I don't miss those at all. (they musta got a good deal on them, because they were everywhere!)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

YES! I don't miss those at all. (they musta got a good deal on them, because they were everywhere!)

Those chairs were apparently a vehicle to "recover" or "restore" son Timothy's finances, post-DayStar Motorhomes. Timothy got a good deal on them, not sure anyone else did. But we'll never know, because when WL was asked where the money went, he said that was his personal business.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

It's a personal journey. Don't impose your "vision" on others. That is not the gospel message. The gospel (to me) is that Jesus lowered himself to nothing, and through his humbling we're reconciled, restored, both to God and to one another. Everything that needed recovery was done on the cross, and in the grave. The empty tomb was a witness, and the angels reminded the astonished entrants of this simple fact. "He is not here - he is risen"

Since the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the very heart and the root of the Christian faith, it stands to reason that any significant departure from, much less perversion of, this Gospel will lead any group of believers - no matter how sincere - into a system of error. Witness Lee taught that he had a "higher gospel". We should have all known that this was in error. Unfortunately, most of us were gullible babes, silly little "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Eph 4:14) Most of us were pretty clueless, and decidedly and blissfully ignorant of the danger we got ourselves in to. Before we knew what hit us, we were singing at the top of our lungs "Oh I'm a man, I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"

So what's the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church? Well, maybe the greatest error was a "different gospel"....and from this different gospel sprung forth all the errors we have been talking about. From this different gospel came forth a "different Jesus". From this different gospel came forth erroneous teachings, understandings and views about God and about Man. As I noted a little earlier in this thread, when you get the nature and character of God wrong, you really don't know God at all. What you really know is a mere caricature of God - a distorted and erroneous counterfeit of the true God, the creator of heaven and earth. What you really know is a different Jesus, a mere caricature of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself up for us at the cross. What you really know is not the Spirit of Truth, our only hope of ever being guided into the truth, but a caricature of the Holy Spirit, which is another spirit, the spirit of error.(1 Jn 4:6) And this is why our discussions about the trinity and modalism are so very important. Lee got God wrong. Lee got Jesus wrong. Lee got the Spirit wrong. Lee got Man wrong. Lee got the church wrong. Oh dear Lord Jesus, have mercy on us! Lead us into all truth. Your Word is truth. Only your Word is truth. Save us from any system of error. Wake us from our stupor.
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[awareness]

Killing critical thinking. And self reflection.

[jigsaw44]

@ohio
Those interlocking Chairs are a universal thing throughout all localities? Hahahahahahaha omg. That is so funny, is it some sense of oneness that they want to have???? Just the minor details of how the local churches run things on a miniscule scale is so hilarious. I could care less about interlocking Chairs, seems ok to me. But darn that is an interesting funny piece of info.

[Trapped]

How else would they fulfill Witness Lee's teaching that each local church be identical in color and outward appearance? The requisite chairs' quiet golden glow in every meeting hall must do the trick....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

@ohio
Those interlocking Chairs are a universal thing throughout all localities? Hahahahahahaha omg. That is so funny, is it some sense of oneness that they want to have???? Just the minor details of how the local churches run things on a miniscule scale is so hilarious. I could care less about interlocking Chairs, seems ok to me. But darn that is an interesting funny piece of info.

I shouldn't complain. They were an improvement over those metal folding chairs.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Killing critical thinking. And self reflection.

I missed you saying this before, so let me add it to the list:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Preaching a different gospel
14. Preaching a different Jesus
15. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
16. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
17. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
18. The concept of "Recovery"
19. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

*Let me say that to me, self reflection can go two ways. One is a kind that we try to shine a light onto ourselves (in my experience this usually doesn't lead us to a good place), and the other is where we give it to Him and ask for His light to shine on us.

And on further reflection, my vote is still on the pride and eletism produced through the dogged promotion of that most "superior" teaching of the so-called "ground of oneness." It seemed like this was the most visible and divisive. Once you think you've got something that others don't, then it starts leading you into all kinds of erroneous paths . . . Then you become isolated and cut off, and the life-flow in the body ebbs. Once the life is gone, you just have the animated flesh producing it's garbage.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Since the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the very heart and the root of the Christian faith, it stands to reason that any significant departure from, much less perversion of, this Gospel will lead any group of believers - no matter how sincere - into a system of error. Witness Lee taught that he had a "higher gospel". We should have all known that this was in error. Unfortunately, most of us were gullible babes, silly little "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Eph 4:14) Most of us were pretty clueless, and decidedly and blissfully ignorant of the danger we got ourselves in to. Before we knew what hit us, we were singing at the top of our lungs "Oh I'm a man, I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"

So what's the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church? Well, maybe the greatest error was a "different gospel"....and from this different gospel sprung forth all the errors we have been talking about. From this different gospel came forth a "different Jesus". From this different gospel came forth erroneous teachings, understandings and views about God and about Man. As I noted a little earlier in this thread, when you get the nature and character of God wrong, you really don't know God at all. What you really know is a mere caricature of God - a distorted and erroneous counterfeit of the true God, the creator of heaven and earth. What you really know is a different Jesus, a mere caricature of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself up for us at the cross. What you really know is not the Spirit of Truth, our only hope of ever being guided into the truth, but a caricature of the Holy Spirit, which is another spirit, the spirit of error.(1 Jn 4:6) And this is why our discussions about the trinity and modalism are so very important. Lee got God wrong. Lee got Jesus wrong. Lee got the Spirit wrong. Lee got Man wrong. Lee got the church wrong. Oh dear Lord Jesus, have mercy on us! Lead us into all truth. Your Word is truth. Only your Word is truth. Save us from any system of error. Wake us from our stupor.
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That's interesting. And back in the time of the 60s and 70s, as babes, with a fresh experience of the Spirit flowing through us - we were all probably a little ga-ga with WL saying it was a higher, mo-better gospel! So we swallowed and kept swallowing the whole thing.

And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?

Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
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Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:16-21)

Compare and contrast this Gospel with the gospel of Witness Lee.

If you think the Lee's gospel is the same, I will ask you to supply us with many quotes of Lee over the past 30-40 years of his ministry that comport with the passage I have quoted above. If you cannot easily do this, well then I would say that this is the answer to your question.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?

The context for Paul's use of this phrase "different gospel" was the Judaizers message who preached that we must be circumcised in order to be saved. This occurred in Antioch resulting in the Acts 15 council. This happened to the Galatian believers who were subsequently lost. This was a constant struggle in the Gentile world after they heard Paul's gospel. Nearly every book of the NT shows the struggle between the true gospel of grace, and the "different gospel" brought by the Judaizers.