2 Cor 8:5, Hebr 10:25

[googlelight]

I have discovered new Christian groups that have emerged in Norway,
that are STRIKINGLY similar to the Lords Recovery.
They have one great teacher, which has formed a leadership class, and on the emotional control box, they almost check out 100%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn1l8Dvp3nA&t=347s

Cal says: There is nothing in the Bible that say we are supposed to turn over our life to some group." However these groups over-emphasize two verses:
namely 2 Cor. 8:5 "but they gave themselves first to the Lord, and to us through the will of God."
"To us" implying the group.
Hebrews 10:25 "Not abandoning our own assembling together..."
These verses are used by these groups to convince their new members to do exactly that, turning their lifes over fully to the group. And alas: “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” (Carl Sagan).

Yesterday I talked to a person who took more than 10 years to recover from such a group. She began to be trained by a group when she was 14, so needless to say, she lost 10 years of her youth time.

I want to open a discussion concerning this to get more input. I have friends in these groups and I need to arm myself with the Word of God. Can anyone suggest verses that balance the two verses these groups tend to use?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by googlelight

I have discovered new Christian groups that have emerged in Norway, that are STRIKINGLY similar to the Lords Recovery.
However these groups over-emphasized two verses:
2 Cor. 8:5 "but they gave themselves first to the Lord, and to us through the will of God."
Hebrews 10:25 "Not abandoning our own assembling together..."
Can anyone suggest verses that balance the two verses these groups tend to use?

In regards to a balance to 2 Cor 8:5, the verses that strike me would be: Romans 10:2,3
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
The further away (both in time and space) we get to look at Witness Lee and his followers, the clearer it is becoming that much of the zeal and excitement we experienced was "not according to knowledge". I'm afraid that most of us in the Local Church were decidedly "ignorant of the righteousness of God". In my experience and observation over the past 40+ years, many Christians, especially younger people and those new to the faith, have a strong tendency to follow those who have the most zeal, but not necessarily the requisite knowledge of the righteousness of God. If the person and work of any Christian leader does not come into alignment with the righteousness of God, then his zeal for God becomes suspect at best, and usually gets exposed as illegitimate. We see this in the life and times of Watchman Nee. We see this even more in the life and times of Witness Lee, and by extension, those who have held him up as the one minister with the one ministry for the age, and the only person speaking as Gods oracle. May God have mercy.

In regards to a balance to Hebrews 10:25
This one is a little tougher. I guess I would defer back to Romans 10:2,3 again. God does not want his people assembling together just for the sake of assembling together. Those who name the Name of Christ but are false brothers assemble together. Those entrapped within false religion assemble together as well. Even unbelievers assemble together (well, at least they did before Covid 19 hit us) I would ask the question: Is our assembling together according to the knowledge and righteousness of God, or is it simply to show forth our zeal for God? Maybe it should be for both, but at the very least it should be for the former. I would not go so far as to say that most Christian assemblies are illegitimate (as Witness Lee did), but I would say that it is better to avoid assembling together with those who only have zeal, but seem to be lacking in knowledge, and whose teachings and practices do not seem to be in alignment with the righteousness of God.
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by googlelight

However these groups over-emphasize two verses:
namely 2 Cor. 8:5 "but they gave themselves first to the Lord, and to us through the will of God."
"To us" implying the group.
Hebrews 10:25 "Not abandoning our own assembling together..."
These verses are used by these groups to convince their new members to do exactly that, turning their lifes over fully to the group. And alas: “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” (Carl Sagan).

A couple thoughts come to mind:

1. Regarding 2 Cor. 8:5 - if you read the whole chapter, there are a handful of balancing phrases there.

3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own,
4 they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord's people.
5 And they exceeded our expectations: They gave themselves first of all to the Lord, and then by the will of God also to us.

The giving in these verses seems to be related to some physical gift, monetary, or otherwise. Verse 3 shows they gave entirely on their own accord, verse 4 shows it was a privilege that they of their own accord pleaded to share in, not an external demand or external human compulsion, and verse 5 also shows the giving of themselves to the apostles was "BY the will of God". These aren't commands to the entire church for all time. This is a letter regarding a specific situation and how some churches responded. But their response seems to be entirely under the leading of God Himself, rather than an automatic "you must submit without thinking" scenario. In other words, if you aren't led by God, then there is no command here to do what they are doing, because they did it out of a leading by God in this specific scenario.

2. Regarding Hebrews 10:25 - the balance for me is also immediately surrounding that verse.

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds,
25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

"not giving up meeting together" is on the other side of the scale from a few things:
1. spur one another on toward love
2. spur one another on toward good deeds
3. encouraging one another

These things are the PURPOSE of meeting together. There is no thought that "not abandoning meeting together" equals "giving up your lives to the group". The meeting together is for love, good deeds, and encouragement, not for total control.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

A couple thoughts come to mind:

1. Regarding 2 Cor. 8:5 - if you read the whole chapter, there are a handful of balancing phrases there.

2. Regarding Hebrews 10:25 - the balance for me is also immediately surrounding that verse.

And such are the schemes of every abusive leader -- yanking fragments of scripture out of context, not allowing a balanced understanding, and misrepresenting their meanings for personal gains.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And such are the schemes of every abusive leader -- yanking fragments of scripture out of context, not allowing a balanced understanding, and misrepresenting their meanings for personal gains.

And then these same groups go around accusing OTHERS of yanking fragments out of context, (or DCP's favorite phrase "wrenching quotes from context")!!

[googlelight]

UntoHim, Trapped, Ohio
you guys are so resourceful!
thank you so much, this is something that is excellent to read together with those who have a sense something just isnt right

I am so glad I have this forum

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by googlelight

UntoHim, Trapped, Ohio
you guys are so resourceful!
thank you so much, this is something that is excellent to read together with those who have a sense something just isn't right

I am so glad I have this forum

You are welcome.

Over the years the forum community has been forced to examine the scriptures concerning each and every LC bogus claim and distortion.