Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily - Who emphasizes this besides the LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

(I searched but didn't come up with any threads on here about eating and drinking Jesus, so I thought to start one.)

This was a big theme with the LC back in the day. There are plenty of instances in the word that talk about eating and drinking the Lord, perhaps most famously where Jesus Himself said in John 6:53, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." When He spoke it, it says many were offended and left, and I can certainly see why! Many, many other places talk about eating and/or drinking. The Lord's Table is another famous example and Paul talks about drinking the One Spirit. There's much more in the word about this, of course.

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

But I have to say that the LC is one of the few places that I've heard about this (except here in Scottsdale) over the years. Different ones certainly mention the significance of the Lord's Table, but I don't know I've heard eating and drinking related much to my daily walk with Christ - that is, to eat Him on a daily basis that I might live by Him.

Now in reading certain authors (T. Austin Sparks comes to mind, Andrew Murray and maybe Piper) they certainly speak regarding this matter of eating to be strengthened into the inner man and to live Christ daily. But I've been to a few places and have been exposed to a fair amount of Christian radio and TV, and I can't remember when I've heard this specific teaching.

Any-a-ways - I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

(I searched but didn't come up with any threads on here about eating and drinking Jesus, so I thought to start one.)

This was a big theme with the LC back in the day. There are plenty of instances in the word that talk about eating and drinking the Lord, perhaps most famously where Jesus Himself said in John 6:53, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." When He spoke it, it says many were offended and left, and I can certainly see why! Many, many other places talk about eating and/or drinking. The Lord's Table is another famous example and Paul talks about drinking the One Spirit. There's much more in the word about this, of course.

I'm convinced that eating and drinking is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

But I have to say that the LC is one of the few places that I've heard about this (except here in Scottsdale) over the years. Different ones certainly mention the significance of the Lord's Table, but I don't know I've heard eating and drinking related much to my daily walk with Christ - that is, to eat Him on a daily basis that I might live by Him.

Now in reading certain authors (T. Austin Sparks comes to mind, Andrew Murray and maybe Piper) they certainly speak regarding this matter of eating to be strengthened into the inner man and to live Christ daily. But I've been to a few places and have been exposed to a fair amount of Christian radio and TV, and I can't remember when I've heard this specific teaching.

Any-a-ways - I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss.

StG, you really have to put yourself in the cultural mindset of the Jewish people in order to understand what Christ meant by eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Even then the Jewish people didn't understand Jesus because he was referring himself, a human being, as being the sacrifice which was to cleanse the people from their sins.

Eating Christ's flesh and blood is an allegorical representation of animal sacrifice. Christ is prophesying to the people that unless they accept his sacrifice, they can not be cleansed from sin. Nothing more to it....

Receiving the Holy Spirit through repentance is a one time event. You don't have to keep eating and drinking. If spiritual gluttony were a term in the bible, I'd use it to describe mysticism. Paul's use of the term "given" in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is denoting a past event, not a continual drinking of the spirit.

When the simplicity of Christ isn't enough for people they tend to over-spiritualize scriptures. This is what the local churches do and this is what mysticism is. It looks for hidden meanings and nuances in the text that simply aren't there.

The bottom line is if you lack repentance toward God yet want to remain "spiritual" you'll always fall into mysticism...

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Receiving the Holy Spirit through repentance is a one time event. You don't have to keep eating and drinking. If spiritual gluttony were a term in the bible, I'd use it to describe mysticism. Paul's use of the term "given" in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is denoting a past event, not a continual drinking of the spirit.

When the simplicity of Christ isn't enough for people they tend to over-spiritualize scriptures. This is what the local churches do and this is what mysticism is. It looks for hidden meanings and nuances in the text that simply aren't there.

The bottom line is if you lack repentance toward God yet want to remain "spiritual" you'll always fall into mysticism...

Hmm, boy I'm glad I only have to eat just once to sustain my physical life! Oh wait, no I dont and no I'm not glad - because I like to eat, and I get to do it a number of times today! If I didn't eat frequently, my energy would suffer greatly (except the energy to find something to eat).

And why do we do the Lord's Table more than once?

And what about drinking - we have to do that even more often . . . is there perhaps a picture there? What I think you're saying sounds a little like the idea that "I've got my ticket punched, now I don't need anything until I go to heaven," doesn't it?

"As the dear panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God." Psalm 42:1

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hmm, boy I'm glad I only have to eat just once to sustain my physical life! Oh wait, no I dont and no I'm not glad - because I like to eat, and I get to do it a number of times today! If I didn't eat frequently, my energy would suffer greatly (except the energy to find something to eat).

And why do we do the Lord's Table more than once?

And what about drinking - we have to do that even more often . . . is there perhaps a picture there? What I think you're saying sounds a little like the idea that "I've got my ticket punched, now I don't need anything until I go to heaven," doesn't it?

"As the dear panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God." Psalm 42:1

Even though you need to continually eat and drink to sustain physical life, you still die in the end. The same is with the mystical approach to spirituality. You can eat and drink of all the spiritual experiences you can handle but in the end it eventually leads to separation from God.

Scripture says that those born of God will have rivers of living water flowing out of their belly. Your interpretations imply that our belly needs filling as if we were dehydrated and devoid of Christ.

Interpreting the bible through mysticism makes Christianity sound appealingly mysterious and esoteric but in reality what this does is it twists the truth 180 degrees.

Christ said not to give thought to what we eat or drink. The same is with our spiritual needs. If you have faith in God, He will provide. The ongoing process of sanctification in a Christian's life is a work of God, not a work of our own.

[Raptor]

StG... The thought of the importance of eating spiritually is highlighted in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord presented Himself as food and drink to us over and over again. I think it's a great mercy to see that and to learn how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord... daily! Once you see this AND have the experience you realize it's crucial for our growth and strength. Like other practices, though, it's important not to allow this to become something mechanical and impersonal. It is not a "thing", but we are dealing with a Person and enjoying Him...(And I agree, I don´t think there are many places that teach this or practice this on a daily basis.)

[Jo S]

Raptor,

May I ask; do you still meet with the LC's (LSM/GLA)?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Raptor,

May I ask; do you still meet with the LC's (LSM/GLA)?

No.

May I ask you, do you believe that man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God, and that Christ is the living bread and that we need to eat Him to live because of Him?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Interpreting the bible through mysticism makes Christianity sound appealingly mysterious and esoteric but in reality what this does is it twists the truth 180 degrees.

Christ said not to give thought to what we eat or drink. The same is with our spiritual needs. If you have faith in God, He will provide. The ongoing process of sanctification in a Christian's life is a work of God, not a work of our own.

I thought you would be responding to this subject, based upon what some prior discussion had been - welcome aboard!

The Spirit is mysterious, is it not? It blows this way and that, and you can't see where it comes or goes. That is the nature of the unseen. Now the seen, we have no need for any faith there, because it is immensely apparent. So calling everything that happens in the unseen spiritual realm "mysticism" is a big misnomer I think. Hey, just by someone believing in Christ, many would label that mysticism!

But you have something you believe you have seen about WL and the LC, in that it was all mysticism, and that's fine. Perhaps they were too far in the experience direction of things. But I think we can go too far in labeling them (or any Christians) as this or that - we don't do ourselves any favors, and it can wind up blinding us through the categorization.

Concerning your 2nd paragraph (copied above), this is a big mystery too! The verse that comes to me is Philippians 2:12-13, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." So who's doing the working in us? God! But why does Paul also exhort us to "work out your own salvation"? We do have some part to play in this, as we still have a free will. We must choose to put the metaphorical car in gear, in order to experience all the power of the engine, right? Otherwise we just sit there.

This goes towards an accountability believers have. We must give an accounting of all that's been done "while in the body," at the judgement seat of Christ. (2 Cor 5:10) The Christian life is us opening to Him for initial salvation, then continuing to open to Him for His ongoing working in us. So we take Him in initially and "that which is born of Spirit is spirit" happens and we are joined to Him as one Spirit. (John 3:6 & 1 Cor. 6:17) You can't run this decades long race without ongoing nourishment, but we can still choose to eat and drink or not.

An old song has been running through me the last few days, and seemingly came out of nowhere. I thought to share it with you. It's from 1st Corinthians.

The last Adam became
A Life-Giving Spirit.
In one Spirit we're baptized
Into one body.
And all were given to drink -
To drink One Spirit.
So hallelujah drink Him
The Life-Giving Spirit!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

No.

May I ask you, do you believe that man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God, and that Christ is the living bread and that we need to eat Him to live because of Him?

Raptor, I'll first start by pointing out that you're taking two different metaphors and blending them together.

To answer your questions;

Shall men live on bread alone? No.

Is Christ the living bread? Yes.

However, the first metaphor uses the term "bread" or the Greek "arto" in the context of God's commandments. The second, "artos" alludes to Christ's flesh aka his sacrifice. While similar words for bread are being used (one is of unknown origin, the other known), it's being used in a completely different context. So what you're doing while posing your question is you're making a false equivalency.

This is an example of what faulty hermeneutics do, Raptor. It allows for subjective interpretation of the text and as a result of that, conclusions that are out of line with the actually context of what's being spoken.

Here's what I see; in the LC's you are taught strong emphasis on the spiritual experience but sorely lack proper biblical interpretative skills. Because of what I see as Nee's and Lee's spiritual pride and prejudices toward the rest of Christendom, they also rejected the more scholarly approach to understanding scripture which the majority of mainstream Christianity adheres to called exegesis. As such, they adopted the more subjective method of interpreting scripture, eisegesis.

I understand that many Christians focus too much on study rather than experience, but the typical LC member focuses too heavily on experience. Having too strong of an emphasis on the spiritual can and will lead to false spirituality, aka mysticism. Being properly grounded in scripture with a more disciplined approach to studying the text helps prevent that from happening. However, going to either extreme means missing the mark. One side eventually becomes like an Ephesus (forgetting the joy they once had in Christ) and the other a Laodicea (claiming they have all the spiritual riches yet remain spiritually blind to the Holy Spirit).

I'm by no means a scholar but I would recommend you guys do exactly what member byHismercy is actively trying to do while studying scriptures; forget everything you were taught in the LC's and start with a fresh new outlook viewing the text through an exegetical lens. I too used to be "experience heavy" early on in my walk. Studying basic hermeneutics has helped me tremendously in approaching scripture properly.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

But as the song says, "In Christ alone I put my trust!" So as with anything, if we focus on that instead of Him, it is a distraction at the very least. For example, we want the "church life" so we focus on that, and that becomes something apart - a distraction - from Him. (And I think that's been said on here too before - hallelujah for the "Wisdom" in the body!)

Along those lines, StG, I also wanted to point something out from the reply above that you made in another recent thread.

So when you're taught in the LC's to only focus on the spiritual, aka "get out of your mind and into your spirit", this mentality can also lead you to turn the Christ centric view into an analogy referring back to hyper-spirituality. The word "Christ" in mysticism becomes just another word for "spirit" or the spiritual experience rather than the actual person. That's also something to look out for.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Here's what I see; in the LC's you are taught strong emphasis on the spiritual experience but sorely lack proper biblical interpretative skills. Because of what I see as Nee's and Lee's spiritual pride and prejudices toward the rest of Christendom, they also rejected the more scholarly approach to understanding scripture which the majority of mainstream Christianity adheres to called exegesis. As such, they adopted the more subjective method of reading scripture, eisegesis.

I understand that many Christians focus too much on study rather than experience, but the typical LC member focus too heavily on experience. Having too strong of an emphasis on the spiritual can and will lead to false spirituality, aka mysticism. Being properly grounded in scripture with a more disciplined approach to studying the text helps prevent that from happening. However, going to either extreme means missing the mark. One side eventually becomes like an Ephesus (forgetting the joy they once had in Christ) and the other a Laodicea (claiming they have all the spiritual riches yet remain spiritually blind to the Holy Spirit).

I'm by no means a scholar but I would recommend you guys do exactly what member byHismercy is actively trying to do while studying scriptures; forget everything you were taught in the LC's and start with a fresh new outlook viewing the text through an exegetical lens.

Well said indeed bro!!

This is a big thing to see! No one group has the "market cornered," and the sooner we realize that and accept the good portion others have, the better we will be able to run the race!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well said indeed bro!!

This is a big thing to see! No one group has the "market cornered," and the sooner we realize that and accept the good portion others have, the better we will be able to run the race!

StG, that advice is also being offered to you. I realize you still have the typical LC mystical outlook on scripture judging from many of your responses. The truth is, you actually have to look out for the bad portions that others offer otherwise you risk making the same mistake Nee made in his loose approach to gaining spiritual knowledge.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

StG, that advice is also being offered to you. I realize you still have the typical LC mystical outlook on scripture judging from many of your responses. The truth is, you actually have to look out for the bad portions that others offer otherwise you risk making the same mistake Nee made in his loose approach to gaining spiritual knowledge.

Thanks. And visa versa.

[HERn]

From Jo S. "So when you're taught in the LC's to only focus on the spiritual, aka "get out of your mind and into your spirit", this mentality can also lead you to turn the Christ centric view into an analogy referring back to hyper-spirituality. The word "Christ" in mysticism becomes just another word for "spirit" or the spiritual experience rather than the actual person. That's also something to look out for."

I like the way you think and write. I think the major work of the evil spirits in the LCs is to deflect attention away from the person of Christ towards the ministry, the MOTA, the training, the ground, the human spirit, and many other things associated with Nee's and Lee's recovery. Some saints may not be that distracted, but every saint absolute about anything other than Christ is in danger of being in a deceived state.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. And visa versa.

StG, I'm well aware of how mystics view Pharisees (teachers of the law or scholars). Just so you know I'm neither of those two.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Raptor, I'll first start by pointing put that you're taking two different metaphors and blending them together.

However, the first metaphor uses the term "bread" or the Greek "arto" in the context of God's commandments. The second, "artos" alludes to Christ's flesh aka his sacrifice. While the same word for bread is being used (one is of unknown origin, the other known), it's being used in a completely different context. So what you're doing while posing your question is you're making a false equivalency.

No, it is not a false equivalency, you are missing several main points, one is the RHEMA:

The context of Matthew 4:4 is that the Lord Jesus was hungry, having fasted 40 days. The devil tempted Him to use His standing as the Son of God to turn the stones into bread to satisfy His hunger and in doing so, leave His position as the Son of Man. Yet the Lord had to defeat the devil as a Man, so He quoted the devil a verse, saying "it is written", referring to the written word, i.e. in greek the LOGOS in Deuteronomy. Yet when He spoke the verse He said "...but on every RHEMA, i.e. in greek the spoken word. As a Man, the Lord had been feeding on God´s spoken word. He took the word of God as His bread and lived on it, the RHEMA was His supply of life. He was feeding and living on God´s word as the RHEMA during that time of fasting and physical hunger. By standing as a Man that fed on God´s RHEMA, He defeated that devil in that temptation.

The context of John 6:51 starts in v. 47, a long section thru v. 71. Firstly Christ equates believing to eating Him as as the bread of life, i.e. His flesh, and drinking His blood and thus having eternal life. Yet He adds and says that His flesh and blood are true food and drink and by eating and drinking them we can mutually dwell in each other, and then if we eat Him we shall live because of Him. Eating refers to believing in Him, abiding in Him an living because of Him. The thought is not only to receive once for all, but also to live in Him and He in us and derive our living because of Him on a day to day basis. How? He explains it in v. 63 "the Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The RHEMATA I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life". Here He explains that the supply of eternal life, the abiding and living come from the Spirit and the word, and He clearly points to the word as the instant, spoken RHEMA.

The RHEMA joins those two portions of the word, it is not a false equivalency. So I ask you according to 1 Pet. 1:23, Have you tasted that the Lord is good? and to Heb. 6:5 have you tasted the goodness of the RHEMA of God ? We don't want to be ones that go to the word as if we went to a restaurant, read and analyzed the menu, but never ate the food. Oh He is so rich, He tastes so good! His rhema is so good!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

StG, I'm well aware of how mystics view Pharisees (teachers of the law or scholars). Just so you know I'm neither of those two.

That's right - yer a new creation!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

No, it is not a false equivalency, you are missing several main points, one is the RHEMA:...….

To recap, your and StG's argument is this; feeding on Christ is something that should be made into a daily exercise. You arrive at this conclusion by equating the language in Matthew 4:4 and John 6.

First thing to understand is the term "bread" in scripture is used in MANY different ways. What you did is you took it's meaning from Matthew 4:4 and superimpose it onto John 6 without properly understanding their contexts. By doing this you're argument makes Christ the Rhema when scripture is clear that Christ is not the Rhema but the Logos. Rhema is continual revelation active in a believer's heart through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As I pointed out, Jesus specifically makes it known his use of feeding language is pointing to his flesh, not God's spoken word or Rhema. "And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh..."

The bible teaches that the spirit is in the blood. When an animal is sacrificed, the flesh is eaten and the blood is discarded. It's known that animals don't have the life of God neither in their flesh nor in their blood. This is why Christ says that flesh by itself counts for nothing because all it can do is sustain physical life.

But what the Jews couldn't understand is unlike animals, Christ's blood does actually contain the life of God. By this association, it makes Christ's flesh also life, the bread of life. So with this Jesus made a shocking statement. He is saying don't discard my blood like you do with animals, but drink it! To the Jews this was an abominable thing as only the pagans make a ritual out of drinking the blood of animals.

Simply put, eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood is metaphor teaching that through acceptance of his physical sacrifice as an atonement for our sins, the Holy Spirit or life of God is imparted to us by the shedding of his blood. There's nothing mysterious about that and it doesn't need to be made into a daily ritual. Once Christ is sincerely accepted by an individual through faith and repentance, and you're born again, God actively works in you. This process is called sanctification. All you need to sustain this process is faith, not practice.

Physical food is introduced from the outside and then goes into our bodies but With God's spirit you do not feed on it like regular bread, you live by it and it lives in you. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a Christian, they're sealed. They don't have to work to gain bread or water or whatever spiritual nurishment language you want to use.

You're essentially taking faith and turning it into habit like eating food where God is somewhere out there and so you need to do a ritual or get into a specific frame of mind to bring him in. This mentality turns Christianity into a works based spirituality and it leads to heresy. That's why many mainstream Christian churches don't teach this but if you go to the Catholics or other mystic groups like the LC's, you'll have no trouble finding it there.

If you do research you'll find this teaching is actually derived from mysticism and then made popular through Catholicism. In fact, the Catholics took the same misunderstanding of John 6 and made it into a more ritualistic practice called the eucharist. Yet adhering to the spiritualized version of the eucharist still doesn't make it any more biblical.

To use your restaurant menu analogy, what mysticism does is it orders everything on the menu and then proceeds to eat without any discretion. This mindset and eclectic approach to spirituality started with Watchman Nee.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Jo S

To recap, your and StG's argument is this; feeding on Christ is something that should be made into a daily exercise. You arrive at this conclusion by equating the language in Matthew 4:4 and John 6.

First thing to understand is the term "bread" in scripture is used in MANY different ways. What you did is you took it's meaning from Matthew 4:4 and superimpose it onto John 6 without properly understanding their contexts. By doing this you're argument makes Christ the Rhema when scripture is clear that Christ is not the Rhema but the Logos. Rhema is continual revelation active in a believer's heart through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As I pointed out, Jesus specifically makes it known his use of feeding language is pointing to his flesh, not God's spoken word or Rhema. "And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh..."

The bible teaches that the spirit is in the blood. When an animal is sacrificed, the flesh is eaten and the blood is discarded. It's known that animals don't have the life of God neither in their flesh nor in their blood. This is why Christ says that flesh by itself counts for nothing because all it can do is sustain physical life.

But what the Jews couldn't understand is unlike animals, Christ's blood does actually contain the life of God. By this association, it makes Christ's flesh also life, the bread of life. So with this Jesus made a shocking statement. He is saying don't discard my blood like you do with animals, but drink it! To the Jews this was an abominable thing as only the pagans make a ritual out of drinking the animals blood.

Simply put, eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood is metaphor teaching that through acceptance of his physical sacrifice as an atonement for our sins, the Holy Spirit or life of God is imparted to us. There's nothing mysterious about that and it doesn't need to be made into a daily ritual. Once Christ is sincerely accepted by an individual through faith and repentance, and you're born again, God works actively in you. This process is called sanctification. All you need to sustain this process is faith, not practice.

Physical food is introduced from the outside and then goes into our bodies but With God's spirit you do not feed on it like regular bread, you live by it and it lives in you. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a Christian, they're sealed. They don't have to work to gain bread or water or whatever spiritual nurishment language you want to use.

You're essentially taking faith and turning it into habit like eating food where God is somewhere out there and so you need to do a ritual or get into a specific frame of mind to bring him in. This mentality turns Christianity into a works based spirituality and it leads to heresy. That's why many mainstream Christian churches don't teach this but if you go to the Catholics or other mystic groups like the LC's, you'll have no trouble finding it there.

If you do research you'll find this teaching is actually derived from mysticism and then made popular through Catholicism. In fact, the Catholics took the same misunderstanding of John 6 and made it into a more ritualistic practice called the eucharist. Yet adhering to the spiritualized version of the eucharist still doesn't make it any more biblical.

To use your restaurant menu analogy, what mysticism does is it orders everything on the menu and then proceeds to eat without any discretion. This mindset and eclectic approach to spirituality started with Watchman Nee.

Jo S, stop analyzing the menu, order the food and eat.

1. The RHEMA I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Of course Christ is also the Rhema.
2. You do have to contact the Lord everyday. How good He is!!!! Have you taste Him today, Jo S?
3. Yes, you do have to "work", John 6: 27 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you;

Jo S, I am going to continue eating and drinking the Lord everyday as a practice until the Lord comes back, and by His mercy, continue eating the tree of life and the hidden manna in the Kingdom.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S, stop analyzing the menu, order the food and eat.

1. The RHEMA I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Of course Christ is also the Rhema.
2. You do have to contact the Lord everyday. How good He is!!!! Have you taste Him today, Jo S?
3. Yes, you do have to "work", John 6: 27 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you;

Jo S, I am going to continue eating and drinking the Lord everyday as a practice until the Lord comes back, and by His mercy, continue eating the tree of life and the hidden manna in the Kingdom.

AMEN!

Sorry, Jo, I hafta say that it seems you are looking at everything through "mysticism-colored" glasses!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S, stop analyzing the menu, order the food and eat.

In other words, I need to get out of my mind and into my spirit. Correct? Sounds familiar....

Raptor,

When I was a kid I had a major sweet tooth. I'd eat any sugary thing I could get a hold of. Little did I know that if I kept eating like I was, I'd eventually develop health issues. But I was young and without knowledge. I continued an undisciplined diet for the simple fact that sugar made me feel good. It gave my brain that instant release of dopamine that the flesh craved so much. It was those good feelings that allowed me to continue justifying eating sugary foods without limitations.

Years passed and the health issues slowly started emerging in the form of skin problems, depression, and other things. There was no doubt that my poor diet was partially to blame.

The same goes with an undisciplined spiritual life. If you continue to tap into the spiritual realm through practice at will and not by God's grace through faith eventually you'll develop bad doctrine and thru that, spiritual illness.

"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Faith is the Christian's so called work. It's not a spiritual ritual or work of the flesh like meditation, pray-reading, yoga, or chanting. It's faith. That's it. The rest Jesus will provide.

"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. "


All that to say before you order from the dessert menu, you need to first order a healthy entrée. This is where the real nourishment is found.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Faith is the Christian's so called work. It's not a spiritual ritual or work of the flesh like meditation, pray-reading, yoga, or chanting. It's faith. That's it. The rest Jesus will provide.

"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. "


All that to say before you order from the dessert menu, you need to first order a healthy entrée. This is where the real nourishment is found.

Can't disagree - all these things you mention are just practices in and of themselves, and can certainly be distractions. The (definite article as in "Will He find The faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 ) Faith (i.e., trust, belief) in Christ is the one thing needed. And it's even His faith that's been given to us!

So Jo, lets get to the nitty-gritty practicality side of this. I am curious - can you tell us what your pursuit of Christ and turning to Him looks like on a daily/weekly basis? (even though, assuredly agreed that He does already live in you)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Jo S

In other words, I need to get out of my mind and into my spirit. Correct? Sounds familiar....

Yes, it sounds familiar, it's all over the Bible, e.g. John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. Rev. 1:10 I was in spirit on the Lord's Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,..Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Galatians 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Jo S

The same goes with an undisciplined spiritual life. If you continue to tap into the spiritual realm through practice at will and not by God's grace through faith eventually you'll develop bad doctrine and thru that, spiritual illness.

Good habits and practices build up a disciplined spiritual life (and human life, family life, work life, school life, business life, married life, etc). Everything in the christian life should be by God's grace through faith. Romans 14:23 ...for all that is not out of faith is sin." That is why I tap into the spiritual realm to eat and drink Jesus out of faith and by God's grace and mercy, keeping me healthy.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Faith is the Christian's so called work. It's not a spiritual ritual or work of the flesh like meditation, pray-reading, yoga, or chanting. It's faith. That's it. The rest Jesus will provide.

There are countless christian works, Eph. 1:20, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." The Old Testament saints meditated on God's word, law, precepts, etc, hundreds of times. Praying is not of the flesh, per se, neither is reading the Bible (Rom. 14:23), they are basic christian practices. "Eastern" or "hindu" type of meditation, yoga, and chanting are not part of the christian faith and practice.

Originally Posted by Jo S

"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. "

Exactly. Praise the Son of Man for the food He gives us everyday! Thank you Lord for giving me food to eat today, You are my true food and true drink today!

Originally Posted by Jo S

All that to say before you order from the dessert menu, you need to first order a healthy entrée. This is where the real nourishment is found.

Exactly. That's why I eat Christ and His word, both are really healthy, and very nourishing entrées. Indeed, I have found Him as the real nourishment, He is the true bread, and we all have been given to drink one Spirit!.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

To recap, your and StG's argument is this; feeding on Christ is something that should be made into a daily exercise. You arrive at this conclusion by equating the language in Matthew 4:4 and John 6.

Careful JoS, your questionable eisegesus now opposes the word of God.

Originally Posted by Raptor

3. Yes, you do have to "work", John 6:27 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you;

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” -- John 6.29

If you study (perhaps eat ) this section in John 6 carefully, you will see that our believing is our eating the word of God.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” -- John 6.29(perhaps eat ) this section in John 6 carefully, you will see that our believing is our eating the word of God.

The Lord says in v. 35 “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst." Surely our initial coming and believing in the Lord is equated with eating Him and drinking Him. That initial believing does not negate that He still continues to be the bread of life and the water of life to His believers. Everyday we can come to Him again in faith to eat Him and drink Him, not as a repetition of our initial believing, but as a continuation of our enjoyment of Christ as the food and drink that He is.

Just like the children of Israel ate the slain lamb when they fled out of Egypt as a type of our initial believing, but then continually ate the manna everyday in the desert. So also we continue to eat Christ as the true manna everyday after believing. And although God sent them the manna, they still had to get up and gather it before a certain time of day. So we still have to put in some effort to go to this Wonderful One, open up to Him and "gather" Him as our daily manna to eat.

This is why the thought of eating and drinking Christ does not stop throughout the scriptures, i.e. "being nourished by the words of the faith, longing for the guileless milk, come to Me and drink, rivers of living water, given to drink one Spirit", all the way to Revelation, where we find the "eat of the tree of life, the hidden manna, drink freely from the water of life."

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. Rev. 1:10 I was in spirit on the Lord's Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,..Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Galatians 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

God is spirit but he's also rational (Isaiah 1:18). You don't need to leave your mind to live by God's spirit. If you do, you're getting into a different spirit altogether.

This is what the Local Churches teach. They teach you to stop analyzing the menu (get out of your mind) and just order and eat (get into your spirit). But the food that arrives doesn't nourish to eternal life. It only carries you through the day leaving you hungry again. You experience a sugar rush and then a sugar crash so you have to repeatedly do certain practices or run to the next meeting to satisfy your appetite.

The water that the Jesus of scripture provides fills you once and for all. It becomes a spring of water inside a true believer. You no longer have to go to the well daily in order to draw water from it like mystics attempt to do through their spirituality.

"but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Good habits and practices build up a disciplined spiritual life (and human life, family life, work life, school life, business life, married life, etc). Everything in the christian life should be by God's grace through faith. Romans 14:23 ...for all that is not out of faith is sin." That is why I tap into the spiritual realm to eat and drink Jesus out of faith and by God's grace and mercy, keeping me healthy.

If you have faith, you won't have to tap into the spiritual realm because you wouldn't be a stranger to it. But those that tap in through force or practice Jesus calls thieves and robbers (Jn 10:1). A healthy disciplined Christian walk is only possible because of the fruit that comes by the Holy Spirit and not the other way around. You can't earn spiritual fruits through labor or habit. A Christian labors because they are already filled and so have energy to work. Catholics and other spiritual mystics have to work first ie, meditate, pray-reading, or chant a mantra of Jesus' name in order to get into a certain frame of mind, but it only lasts for a short time. A Christian prays. However it's because the spirit is in them and interceding for them on their behalf. God already knows what you need before you ask.

There are countless christian works, Eph. 1:20, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." The Old Testament saints meditated on God's word, law, precepts, etc, hundreds of times. Praying is not of the flesh, per se, neither is reading the Bible (Rom. 14:23), they are basic christian practices. "Eastern" or "hindu" type of meditation, yoga, and chanting are not part of the christian faith and practice.

In the Old Testament David would meditate on God's Word, but you no longer see this language in the NT. This is because the Holy Spirit had not been given before Jesus and did not indwell individuals.

As it was with David, It is the same for those separated from loved ones. Don't we also find ourselves thinking about those we love and reminiscing when we are separated from them? But now that Jesus has come, Those that know him no longer need to reminisce. God never leaves them.

If you have to meditate to sense "God", even if it's through reciting bible verses, you're getting into something else all together. Unfortunately this is the approach to spirituality the Local Churches teach. It is the mysticism of Catholicism but hidden in eastern culture.

Exactly. Praise the Son of Man for the food He gives us everyday! Thank you Lord for giving me food to eat today, You are my true food and true drink today!

Exactly. That's why I eat Christ and His word, both are really healthy, and very nourishing entrées. Indeed, I have found Him as the real nourishment, He is the true bread, and we all have been given to drink one Spirit!.

This kind of language is unusual to scripture. Jesus nor the apostles spoke in such a strange manner by turning "spiritual food" into a daily 3 course meal plan. The food Jesus gave us was his sacrifice. If you have to continually eat him every day, you're crucifying him all over again in order to do so because just as you said, anything not done out of faith is sin (1 Cor 11:27). Daily sacrifice (as it was in the Old testament) or even weekly sacrifice (as in the Catholic eucharist) is sin now that Jesus has come.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Careful JoS, your questionable eisegesus now opposes the word of God.

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” -- John 6.29

If you study (perhaps eat ) this section in John 6 carefully, you will see that our believing is our eating the word of God.

Seeing as you were a former Catholic, Ohio, I'd thought you'd be in agreement with me on this.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Seeing as you were a former Catholic, Ohio, I'd thought you'd be in agreement with me on this.

Not sure what you meant here. As a former Catholic, we were taught to believe that the communion host was Jesus Himself, i.e. "This is My body."

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Jo S

God is spirit but he's also rational (Isaiah 1:18). You don't need to leave your mind to live by God's spirit. If you do, you're getting into a different spirit altogether.

Jo S. Do you ever spend time to be with the Lord?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S. Do you ever spend time to be with the Lord?

And this is essentially what I asked earlier too. That is, Jo, can you tell us what your seeking after Christ looks like on a daily and weekly basis?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S. Do you ever spend time to be with the Lord?

I'll answer you're question but I need you to answer this first;

Do you believe Watchman Nee and Witness Lee served the Gospel and the Lord Jesus of scripture?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'll answer you're question but I need you to answer this first;

Do you believe Watchman Nee and Witness Lee served the Gospel and the Lord Jesus of scripture?

YES! (Perfectly? No.)

[Sons to Glory!]

Found this from T. Austin Sparks "Living by Christ"

That is a very simple lesson and yet the most difficult lesson for anyone to learn, the most difficult thing for anyone to continually do. Of course, the doctrine is all right, we believe in the doctrine, and we are ready to say it at any time, that the Lord Jesus is our life. We say that with great emphasis, but the point is, Do we live there? Is that our abiding position? A little later in John 6, the Lord Jesus says, "He that eateth My flesh... abideth in Me, and I in him", and the word there - "eateth" - is the continually active word. 'He that keeps on eating My flesh abides in Me and I in him.' Something to be maintained continually.

So maybe those better versed in Greek could tell us about this word "eats" in John 6 - which tense is this in and what is it indicating?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Jo S

= Raptor: "Do you ever spend time to be with the Lord?"
= Jo S:I'll answer you're question but I need you to answer this first;.....

You just answered my question...

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

You just answered my question...

Hey, let's not go down this road, okay? But I truly would like to know how each person pursues the Lord on a regular basis . . .

Maybe I should start. Each morning I rise (usually) before 6:00 and get into "Daily Light," which is a daily devotional of just scripture. I often start out reading the verses to myself, but find I start speaking them and saying them to the Lord out loud. Then I have a couple other devotionals that expound on a passage of scripture. I take things of the day to Him. I thank Him for what He's done, what He's doing and for His great love. Some times I'll go for a walk and talk to Him about various things and/or people on my heart. At lunch I often read a spiritual book, and always try to ask Him about things in it, or other things going on. Many times there's a spiritual song that just comes up in me, and I'll sing it then and whenever it comes to me again throughout the day.

If, for some reason I miss that morning time in the Lord, I am not nearly as upbeat about things, and can get negative and argumentative/complaining to a degree that surprises/shocks me a little. In other words, I just seem to be weak and stale in my walk with Christ if I miss morning time with Him. (but He is never far away, and I don't deny His name, throughout my day, as per Rev 3:8)

Two times a week I get with brothers in small gatherings to share, sing, pray and fellowship. I also try to get to the church maintenance gathering Saturday morning, where about a dozen saints will be singing, fellowshipping and praying, before we go do some needed task on the property. I really, really enjoy the gatherings and am always refreshed and encouraged to go on with the Lord, from different ones sharing their recent experiences of Christ or something fresh they've seen.

I'll confess that one "meal" I miss many times is in the evening (and I sense a heightened struggle in me then).

Oh, and I often listen to the Bible on audio when I'm driving, which can be from 1-2 hours a day. Sometimes I listen to Christian radio preaching, but not much on there seems that focused on the New Covenant Christ.

So there - how do you "eat" Jesus and be diligent to enter His rest?

[Raptor]

Back to the purpose of your original post, ..."who emphasizes this besides the LC?" John Piper emphasizes enjoying God, his focus is "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him", so most of his messages always come back to the enjoyment of God. Just a quick search on google, though, and you can find dozens of articles on eating the word, Jesus, etc. Here are some links with a brief quote as a sample below:

Lesson 6. The Word of God: Spiritual Food For Our Souls
https://inductivebible.org/?page_id=216
Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.” (Isaiah 55:1-2, NIV).

You Are What You Eat
https://www.eastsidelutheran.org/ser...-what-you-eat/
This morning in Ezekiel, the Lord instructs us to eat his Word. This is a call for each of us to take stock of both the quantity and the quality of what we put in our brains. And above all, it is an urgent command from God to make his Word the paramount portion of our diet.

The Principles of Eating and Drinking God’s Word in Congregation
https://www.holyspiritspeaks.org/pri...rink-god-word/
One must base his eating and drinking of God’s word on the recognition that God’s word is absolutely the truth, and then he should practice and experience God’s word and receive the Holy Spirit’s illumination and enlightenment to obtain a real understanding.

Eat God's Word - You need to make it your own before you share it with others.
https://diggingtheword.blogspot.com/...gods-word.html
Digging into the word of God can be a great resource if we take it in and and fully digest it so that it is a part of our character and it influences us to stay in line with God's desire for our lives. I need to take in God's word daily, meditate on it and apply it to my life. Then I can be a credible testimony of the life changing power of the gospel.

Learn to Eat God’s Word Or You Will Wind Up Eating Your Own Words
https://www.seedbed.com/learn-eat-go...-eating-words/
To read Scripture with Jesus is to ingest the Word of God, to depend on it as we depend on food. It means to read in a way that nourishes our true and deepest identity as the sons and daughters of God and to interpret it through our lives.

Feeding on the Lord: So Much More Than a Metaphor
https://davidschrock.com/2018/07/12/...an-a-metaphor/
God is our food, our life, our source of soul nourishment. And those who have been born again know what it means to hunger and thirst for the Lord and his righteousness. Just as your hunger drives you to the pantry, the grocery store, or the restaurant, let your spiritual hunger drive you to the Word. Seek to understand it, yes. But even more, seek to enjoy it. For that is why God has given his word! And when we open the pages of Scripture, they are filled with honey to brighten our eyes and bring us closer to God.

Eating The Word Of God
http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/4956
Spiritual Food: The prophet spoke of eating the Word, receiving it inwardly into his soul (Jeremiah 15:16). It is compared to milk (1 Peter 2:2), to honey (Psalm 19:10; 119:103) and to strong food or meat (Hebrews 5:12, 14). Spiritual life is sustained by nourishment from the Word. Growth: As it ministers to our souls, the Word builds us up in our most holy faith (Acts 20:32). Spiritual development requires the food of the Word (1 Peter 2:2).

Eat the Word of God
http://www.flowingfaith.com/2016/10/...rd-of-god.html
Jesus, the Word of God, has the words of eternal life. But the Word of God is also daily bread for our pilgrimage back home to God. Only by reading the Bible we draw strength, hope, and joy for the journey. Also, Only by eating the Word of God we have stamina to endure the hardships on the way home. Also, only by reading the Daily Bread we stay focused on God, centered in Christ, and united in the Holy Spirit.

On Eating and Drinking the Word of God
http://www.goodnews.ie/wordofgod.shtml
We need to chew thoroughly on the Word of God, ....what we need is a renewed determination to feed at the table of God's Word and to drink of its wisdom so that we can become the prophetic people our times so desperately need.

You Become What You Eat
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...e-what-you-eat
Our souls are designed to be nourished by God’s “precious and very great promises”....And Jesus has made the Bible the storehouse of nourishing, living soul food for his saints. It is stocked full of promises, and he invites us to come eat our fill for free (Isaiah 55:1)!

[Sons to Glory!]

Wow Raptor - you really provided a lot of info there! I'm too busy now to look at the links, but plan to later.

In my morning time today I had something occur to me. There are two aspects of things - the heavenly and the earthly. Or you can think of them as spiritual and practical. For instance, we are seated with Him in the heavenlies, but we are also here on the earth - boots on the ground if you will. Paul addresses this in many places, that is, while he conveys the spiritual reality, Paul is also most aware of how we are here with the flesh.

The reality, as Jo points out, is we all have been given a measure of faith. This faith is in us, and is simply Christ in us, our hope of glory. So there is a rest for the people of God, and that is a fact. It is there and nothing we do changes that reality. However, as Hebrews says, we must be diligent to enter that rest. So, much of the faith has already happened - Christ's blood was shed and we were made the righteousness of God through through His gift. That is done. However, we have a soul that has a free-will and needs to spend time with Him to get nourished by Him, soak Him up and walk according to the spirit!

In this life, we are learning to take Him as our life in all things. And yes (Jo), this is a spiritual thing. We are bountifully supplied by the Spirit of Jesus Christ - we need to tap into this supply and apply Him in all situations (Phil 1:19). He, in me, is the best father, husband, brother, neighbor, worker, etc. But He's not pushy - I must choose to live by His Spirit moment by moment.

So the Lord did not haphazardly choose physical food and "eating" as the picture! As was pointed out in my post yesterday regarding T. Austin Spark's article, "eats Me" in John chapter six is in the tense which means to be done on-going. Therefore the meaning is: "He who keeps eating My flesh abides in Me."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Back to the purpose of your original post, ..."who emphasizes this besides the LC?" John Piper emphasizes enjoying God, his focus is "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him", so most of his messages always come back to the enjoyment of God. Just a quick search on google, though, and you can find dozens of articles on eating the word, Jesus, etc. Here are some links with a brief quote as a sample below:

Lesson 6. The Word of God: Spiritual Food For Our Souls
https://inductivebible.org/?page_id=216
Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.” (Isaiah 55:1-2, NIV).

You Are What You Eat
https://www.eastsidelutheran.org/ser...-what-you-eat/
This morning in Ezekiel, the Lord instructs us to eat his Word. This is a call for each of us to take stock of both the quantity and the quality of what we put in our brains. And above all, it is an urgent command from God to make his Word the paramount portion of our diet.

The Principles of Eating and Drinking God’s Word in Congregation
https://www.holyspiritspeaks.org/pri...rink-god-word/
One must base his eating and drinking of God’s word on the recognition that God’s word is absolutely the truth, and then he should practice and experience God’s word and receive the Holy Spirit’s illumination and enlightenment to obtain a real understanding.

Eat God's Word - You need to make it your own before you share it with others.
https://diggingtheword.blogspot.com/...gods-word.html
Digging into the word of God can be a great resource if we take it in and and fully digest it so that it is a part of our character and it influences us to stay in line with God's desire for our lives. I need to take in God's word daily, meditate on it and apply it to my life. Then I can be a credible testimony of the life changing power of the gospel.

Learn to Eat God’s Word Or You Will Wind Up Eating Your Own Words
https://www.seedbed.com/learn-eat-go...-eating-words/
To read Scripture with Jesus is to ingest the Word of God, to depend on it as we depend on food. It means to read in a way that nourishes our true and deepest identity as the sons and daughters of God and to interpret it through our lives.

Feeding on the Lord: So Much More Than a Metaphor
https://davidschrock.com/2018/07/12/...an-a-metaphor/
God is our food, our life, our source of soul nourishment. And those who have been born again know what it means to hunger and thirst for the Lord and his righteousness. Just as your hunger drives you to the pantry, the grocery store, or the restaurant, let your spiritual hunger drive you to the Word. Seek to understand it, yes. But even more, seek to enjoy it. For that is why God has given his word! And when we open the pages of Scripture, they are filled with honey to brighten our eyes and bring us closer to God.

Eating The Word Of God
http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/4956
Spiritual Food: The prophet spoke of eating the Word, receiving it inwardly into his soul (Jeremiah 15:16). It is compared to milk (1 Peter 2:2), to honey (Psalm 19:10; 119:103) and to strong food or meat (Hebrews 5:12, 14). Spiritual life is sustained by nourishment from the Word. Growth: As it ministers to our souls, the Word builds us up in our most holy faith (Acts 20:32). Spiritual development requires the food of the Word (1 Peter 2:2).

Eat the Word of God
http://www.flowingfaith.com/2016/10/...rd-of-god.html
Jesus, the Word of God, has the words of eternal life. But the Word of God is also daily bread for our pilgrimage back home to God. Only by reading the Bible we draw strength, hope, and joy for the journey. Also, Only by eating the Word of God we have stamina to endure the hardships on the way home. Also, only by reading the Daily Bread we stay focused on God, centered in Christ, and united in the Holy Spirit.

On Eating and Drinking the Word of God
http://www.goodnews.ie/wordofgod.shtml
We need to chew thoroughly on the Word of God, ....what we need is a renewed determination to feed at the table of God's Word and to drink of its wisdom so that we can become the prophetic people our times so desperately need.

You Become What You Eat
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...e-what-you-eat
Our souls are designed to be nourished by God’s “precious and very great promises”....And Jesus has made the Bible the storehouse of nourishing, living soul food for his saints. It is stocked full of promises, and he invites us to come eat our fill for free (Isaiah 55:1)!

Wow - so I took some time to look through the links you provided - thanks! I think this answers the main question of this thread, that is, who emphasizes eating and drinking Jesus daily besides the LC? So there are definitely others out there who see the importance of this.

Really, if you look at the Bible as a whole, there is eating and drinking throughout - from the beginning in the garden, to the end in the New Jerusalem, where there's the Tree of Life with good fruit and the marriage feast of the Lamb! Jesus is crying out - whosoever will, come drink and eat freely!

Now eating is not just a mental thing. If it is just a mental thing, then there's something missing. Last night our neighbors invited us over for some really good food. Now what if I decided to look at the steak and examine it, and then proceeded to analyze it and talk about about its characteristics, but not eat any of it? Pretty silly! But I can do both - so I engaged my mind and my stomach and thoroughly enjoyed this steak! The LC saying "Get out of your mind and turn to your spirit" is probably a misnomer. The thought seems good, and I get the meaning and all, but we are not just spirits. Just as I need my mind and emotions to enjoy that steak (it was really good!) along with my stomach, my mind AND spirit can be engaged to feed on Christ.

Is this not the New Covenant? The NC is about grace and being able to enjoy God (as Piper would say) and come to Him freely to be fed. However, I must also say that as I listen to various Christian preachers, I don't think this is conveyed nearly enough. In fact, 95% of what I hear on the radio and TV, these ones are preaching an Old Covenant Jesus of works and performance. That is, the New Testament becomes almost just an addition to the law of things we must follow, but so little is mentioned about Christ living in us and available to be our life moment by moment.

This aspect of abiding in Christ and walking in Spirit/spirit is facilitated by feeding on Him. This is what I'm being taught by the Anointing - how about you?

[Jo S]

StG, I know you're trying to reconcile mysticism to Christianity but it'll only be in vain. We're not mixing paint here, there is no gray area. This is about light and darkness and light has no relationship with darkness. Nee's mysticism is what got the Local Churches in the condition that they're in today. Do you really want to burden those trying to leave the Local Churches with the same approach to spirituality that damaged them in the first place?

Is it any wonder Watchman Nee got along with T Austin Sparks? They were both mystics. John 6 does not in anyway teach a continual feeding on Christ through practice...

With mystics, you'll find they focus mainly on joy and ecstasy rather than actual spiritual growth. This is because real growth is painful yet a Christian is told to carry their cross in this life, not to seek constant states of euphoric obliviousness like in the Local Churches do. You'll often find this food language twisted by pleasure seeking spiritualists to justify the addiction and dependancy on generic spiritual experiences.

If you feel you have to pray-read, chant "Oh Lord Jesus", or meditiate on the bible or do anything other than have trust in God in order to be in an ongoing relationship with Him, you're into something else altogether. This is the mentality of the mystic, they will have a penitent mindset ruled by guilt rather than a repentant heart led by a healthy reverent fear toward God so there will be an unhealthy pressure to conform through certain works and counter guilt through daily practises of ecstasy.

Milk is for children and childen constantly seek to have fun. For them milk can sustain them because they don't have to work. Adults however have responsibilities. If you try to work on only milk as an adult, you're muscles will eventually atrophy. It's no different in your spiritual life.

There's a time when you have to eventually put down the dessert menu, pick up your cross, and follow him.

Jesus died once for us. Have you eaten his sacrifice and fully digested it in one sitting? Or are you left hungry and continue to eat of the heavenly manna that couldn't even keep the Israelites from dying in the desert?

[Sons to Glory!]

So lead by example - how do you pursue Christ on a daily basis?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

how do you pursue Christ on a daily basis?

By believing in the one who sent Jesus. Outwardly, it changes.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

By believing in the one who sent Jesus. Outwardly, it changes.

Great - me too!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Great - me too!

Good. Then what's left is as John says, "Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance".

[Sons to Glory!]

Okay. Now that we've beat this mysticism sidebar to death

let's see if we can summarize things so far: Some outside the LC do also teach eating Jesus (on a daily basis), but it seems most don't. My opinion is this is because many still try to practice the New Covenant in an Old Covenant (legalistic) kind of way.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

let's see if we can summarize things so far: Some outside the LC do also teach eating Jesus (on a daily basis), but it seems most don't. My opinion is this is because many still try to practice the New Covenant in an Old Covenant (legalistic) kind of way.

This is the reason in bringing up mysticism, StG.

The Old Covenant consisted of daily sacrifice.

The New Covenant was one sacrifice once and for all.

The point in bringing up mysticism is that this approach to spirituality is the way of the Old Covenant. Because with a daily sacrifice there's daily eating and drinking as your thread title states. With Christ's sacrifice, there's one meal that satisfies to eternal life.

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee taught daily sacrifice. Understand that legalism can be spiritualized as well.

[Sons to Glory!]

What do you do with Hebrews 4:11 "Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience"?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the reason in bringing up mysticism, StG.

The Old Covenant consisted of daily sacrifice.

The New Covenant was one sacrifice once and for all.

The point in bringing up mysticism is that this approach to spirituality is the way of the Old Covenant. Because with a daily sacrifice there's daily eating and drinking as your thread title states. With Christ's sacrifice, there's one meal that satisfies to eternal life.

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee taught daily sacrifice. Understand that legalism can be spiritualized as well.

It's not that the sacrifice is daily, it's that the eating is constant (that's what eternal means), although sometimes we focus on it more than other times.

Peter said desire the pure milk of the word. That's ongoing eating. Jesus said his food was to do the will of God. That's also ongoing.

You are correct if you are saying we don't have to re-sacrifice. You are incorrect if you are saying we don't have to continue eating. Offering the sacrifice and eating it are two different things. And the New Testament clearly shows that eating and drinking are ongoing. Eph 5:18 says literally, "be being filled in spirit." That implies an ongoing, active filling (that is drinking, because Paul contrasts it with drinking wine).

Yes, the food is already available. We don't have to work for it, but we do have to accept it, that is eat it, in an ongoing fashion. Faith is active and in the present. So is obedience, and Jesus said that to obey is also to eat.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's not that the sacrifice is daily, it's that the eating is constant (that's what eternal means), although sometimes we focus on it more than other times.

Peter said desire the pure milk of the word. That's ongoing eating. Jesus said his food was to do the will of God. That's also ongoing.

You are correct if you are saying we don't have to re-sacrifice. You are incorrect if you say we don't have to continue eating. Offering the sacrifice and eating it are two different things. And the New Testament clearly shows that eating and drinking are ongoing. Eph 5:18 says literally, "be being filled in spirit." That implies an ongoing, active filling (that is drinking, because Paul contrasts it with drinking wine).

Yes, the food is already available. We don't have to work for it, but we do have to accept it, that is eat it, in a ongoing fashion. Faith is active and in the present, so is obedience, and Jesus said that to obey is also to eat.

THANK YOU!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! from Opening Post

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

I want to say something to my brothers Son to Glory!, Raptor and Jo S, not really as a "moderator", but simply as a fellow forum member. I really think that you fellows are talking past each other instead of talking with each other. The first is a rather frustrating and unprofitable battle of one upmanship, the other has great potential to be a profitable dialogue which turns out well for all concerned. It seems to me that you all are wielding the same sword so to speak, one using one edge, the other using the other edge. Sons to Glory! and Raptor are extolling the virtues of eating and drinking Jesus (without giving much detail yet...but let's give them time!) while Jo S is hamming home on the obvious problems and excesses of how all this was taught and practiced in the Local Church.

This matter of "eating and drinking Jesus", aka "enjoying the Lord" is one of the mainstay teachings/practices in the Local Church. This goes back to the foundation of the LC movement here in America. Witness Lee's seminal published work, "The Economy of God", laid the foundation for his followers to supposedly "enter the enjoyment of the Good Land by eating all the rich produce". Eventually this turned into "Hallelujah eating Jesus is the way!"....which turned into "We have found the way to live by Christ - Pray His Word and call His name!" The way, the only way it seemed, to eat and drink Jesus - to enjoy the Lord - was to "Pray Read" the Word (in the prescribed manner and intonation) and to "Call on the Lord" by loudly uttering "Oooohhh Looorrrddd Jeeeesuuuusss" (again, in the prescribed manner and intonation) Eventually these teachings and practices got so solidly codified, and so identified with the personal ministry of Witness Lee, that more than just a few outsiders - Christian apologists, "cult experts" and concerned family members and friends alike - began to see the Local Church as something much more harmful and foreboding than some newfangled, yet benign religious movement during the wild, wild days of the "Jesus People Movement" of the late 60s - mid 70s.

"Enjoying the Lord"? What could possibly be wrong with this? What is wrong with the notion of "nourishing our spirit deep within" as stated by Sons to Glory!, or for Raptor to "Praise the Son of Man for the food He gives us everyday!"? Could it be that there are many different "ways" and practices which will allow us to arrive at the same place? Can one man's Pray Reading be another man's meditative and contemplative reading of the Word? Could one man's Calling On The Lord be another man's "going into his room and shutting the door and praying to his Father who is in secret"? (Matthew 6:6) Instead of using these methods and practices as a hammer to beat on our brother's head, can we maybe try to beat the swords of our personal preferences into some plowshares of sincere admonition and encouragement?

I really think this whole thread has put the focus on our individual "eating, drinking and enjoying the Lord" at the expense of nourishing and caring for one another. Let's take the Lord Jesus as our example and mentor. In John 21 he inquired of Peter "Do you love me more than these?" Peter quickly replied "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you". What, then, did Jesus say? Did he say "Eat my flesh and drink my blood"? No, the Lord said "Feed my lambs". Then the Lord inquired again "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter again: “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” This time Jesus says "Take care of (Sherpherd) my sheep". Finally for the third time: "Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Now, being grieved, and probably offended, Peter once again proclaimed: "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Then came Jesus' final reply: "Feed my sheep".

....just some food for thought.
-

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Let's take the Lord Jesus as our example and mentor. In John 21 he inquired of Peter "Do you love me more than these?" Peter quickly replied "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you". What, then, did Jesus say? Did he say "Eat my flesh and drink my blood"? No, the Lord said "Feed my lambs".

Very wise insight, fellow forum member. Very wise.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This matter of "eating and drinking Jesus", aka "enjoying the Lord" is one of the mainstay teachings/practices in the Local Church.

The nagging question that brought me to the forum years ago was simple, "how could something so good become so bad?" Since "enjoying Jesus" had so demonstrably transformed my life, within and without, how could this ever be a bad thing?

This thread says it all.

For me, and for most of those I was with, for the most part we wanted to keep it real as in John 4.23-24. "Enjoying Jesus," or whatever words one wanted to use, referred to our personal faith and loving relationship with our Savior Jesus Christ. Yet we constantly faced our own stale soulish inertia fueled by the endless programs out of Anaheim. We constantly faced two opposing forces -- first, our own faith and love to God, His word, and His people. Second this forced external need to "follow the ministry." We often faced the emptiness that followed these public exhibitions like pray-reading, shoutings, and PSRP, only to return to a more private, faith-based relationship with the Lord. It wasn't always easy or pretty.

This thread, thus, addresses both of these forces. Having lived thru the LC chaos, Raptor and SonstoGlory long to return and remain in the former. JoS, however, having seen all the failures that ensued, wants to warn us of the latter.

Like Brother UntoHim said, "you fellows are talking past each other instead of talking with each other." I suppose I'm every bit to blame too.

[Sons to Glory!]

I agree with the last three posts and can't really add anything. Good history synopsis UntoHim!

[Raptor]

The OP is about who emphasizes E&D Jesus daily besides the LC. Our dear Jo S somewhat sidetracked the OP by saying "You don't have to keep eating and drinking" post #2. I followed that rabbit trail (probably StG also? and Ohio a little bit?) and kept going in circles with Jo S. Eventually I saw we had gone off-topic and understood Jo S´s belief that he already ate Jesus once, and does not have to eat anymore. (Maybe Jo S can start a new thread, "Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily is not Necessary").

So I brought the post back to topic on post #35 citing 10 interesting articles with sample quotes from others that do emphasize E&D Jesus daily. Ohio, Igzy, and UntoHim, did you read those? Do you have anything to say to further the profitable dialogue of the OP? Do you know of anyone or any groups that practice and emphasize this?

(Observation, the following probably belongs in the "what to throw out" thread: I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry. They still see those topics as if they were exclusive of WL, not the Bible, so they are thrown out. And it's understandable, but frustrating too. Another example, ...looks like nobody here yet has a problem with praying, neither with reading, but if you put them together, "pray-read", somehow suddenly now that's really bad, and is immediately thrown out. [There is a thread about this somewhere]. Maybe changing the term to "read the scriptures prayerfully" and "pray using the words from the scriptures" can be a refreshing angle.)

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The OP is about who emphasizes E&D Jesus daily besides the LC. Our dear Jo S somewhat sidetracked the OP by saying "You don't have to keep eating and drinking" post #2. I followed that rabbit trail (probably StG also? and Ohio a little bit?) and kept going in circles with Jo S. Eventually I saw we had gone off-topic and understood Jo S´s belief that he already ate Jesus once, and does not have to eat anymore. (Maybe Jo S can start a new thread, "Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily is not Necessary").

So I brought the post back to topic on post #35 citing 10 interesting articles with sample quotes from others that do emphasize E&D Jesus daily. Ohio, Igzy, and UntoHim, did you read those? Do you have anything to say to further the profitable dialogue of the OP? Do you know of anyone or any groups that practice and emphasize this?

(Observation, the following probably belongs in the "what to throw out" thread: I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry. They still see those topics as if they were exclusive of WL, not the Bible, so they are thrown out. And it's understandable, but frustrating too. Another example, ...looks like nobody here yet has a problem with praying, neither with reading, but if you put them together, "pray-read", somehow suddenly now that's really bad, and is immediately thrown out. [There is a thread about this somewhere]. Maybe changing the term to "read the scriptures prayerfully" and "pray using the words from the scriptures" can be a refreshing angle.)

Wife and I were in the Navigator's group in the 70s and 80s and we were taught to pray Bible verses, if was not called pray-reading. I think it came from the little booklet by Lorne Sanny called "How to Spend a Day in Prayer", or something like that. We were interacting with the Lord by praying and reading His word. It was subjective, but we did not call it "eating and drinking" the Lord. I believe that saints have been doing things like this for 2,000 years.

Found it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lorn...obile&ie=UTF-8

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Raptor

So I brought the post back to topic on post #35 citing 10 interesting articles with sample quotes from others that do emphasize E&D Jesus daily. Ohio, Igzy, and UntoHim, did you read those?

I think UntoHim clinched it. Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep. Why would he have done that if the sheep don't need to eat? Also, the fact that Jesus told Peter three times to do this suggests that the feeding, and eating, is ongoing. I think this is clear enough, and I've never heard anyone else suggest otherwise. You would be hard pressed to find a mainstream Christian teacher who didn't believe that spiritual eating and drinking in some form should be part of the daily Christian life.

The LR's whole weird slant on the idea is, like everything else they slant weirdly, another story.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

(Observation, the following probably belongs in the "what to throw out" thread: I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry. They still see those topics as if they were exclusive of WL, not the Bible, so they are thrown out. And it's understandable, but frustrating too. Another example, ...looks like nobody here yet has a problem with praying, neither with reading, but if you put them together, "pray-read", somehow suddenly now that's really bad, and is immediately thrown out. [There is a thread about this somewhere]. Maybe changing the term to "read the scriptures prayerfully" and "pray using the words from the scriptures" can be a refreshing angle.)

Raptor, welcome to the forum!

I daresay that no one has been beat up more than me on this forum for standing up for Biblical topics and practices practiced in the LC's. (Prolly since I have the most posts.) Back in the day, this forum heated up real fast too. And I always viewed myself as the guy in the middle -- at times both sides saw me as the enemy. It hurt a little at times, but the blow back only helped me to go back to the Lord, go back to the Bible, and "test all things."

I, for one, really appreciate your insights in your posts. One thing I try to practice is to write for the reader, and not to win an argument. I often fail, but then the Lord reminds me of the goal: to help those in need.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Raptor

(Observation, the following probably belongs in the "what to throw out" thread: I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry.

Some of this is just pushback against LR arrogance. Some is pushback against their proprietary versions of legitimate truths. Some of it is overreaction.

There is praying the word back to God, and then there is LR proprietary "pray-reading."

Praying the word back to God is, rather than trying to invent a prayer, just creating a prayer based on the word.

The LR version is, as is typical of them, an extreme and often bizarre version of this valid practice--repeating short phrases or even single words over and over, shouting, acting in unison, engaging in demonstrative physical activities (standing up and shaking fists), working themselves into a communally acceptable froth, and so forth.

The LR would no doubt take the attitude that they are better at praying the word than anyone else, that any style of pray-reading other than theirs is inferior, and yada, yada.

It's hard not to want to push back against that kind of thing.

Even so, your point is taken. To completely abandon praying the word and calling the Lord by name are unfortunate and extreme reactions to the LR, though ones that might be necessary for some, at least for a time.

[UntoHim]

Just for the record, I would like to be pointed to the places on the forum where someone was "beat up on this forum for standing up for Biblical topics and practices practiced in the LC's". Maybe I was out sick that day. I must of been because I don't recall such a thing ever happening on the forum.

Originally Posted by Raptor

I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry.

Since you "noticed a strong tendency to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices" then it shouldn't be a big inconvenience to point out some specific cases. Don't worry about offending me or anyone else. We're here for the truth, and many of us have been here on this forum standing for the truth for well over a decade now. So Go For It! Be forewarned and prepared, however, to provide some strong biblical evidence for these "many biblical topics and practices". After all, if they are "biblical" then they will be plainly and clearly enunciated in the Bible.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Since you "noticed a strong tendency to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices" then it shouldn't be a big inconvenience to point out some specific cases.

UntoHim, here was a recent example from Jo's post #38 above.

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you feel you have to pray-read, chant "Oh Lord Jesus", or meditiate [sic] on the bible or do anything other than have trust in God in order to be in an ongoing relationship with Him, you're into something else altogether. This is the mentality of the mystic, they will have a penitent mindset ruled by guilt rather than a repentant heart led by a healthy reverent fear toward God so there will be an unhealthy pressure to conform through certain works and counter guilt through daily practises [sic] of ecstasy.

Raptor had asked rhetorically what is wrong with praying? What is wrong with reading? So then what is wrong with pray-reading? This was in the context of the Thread "Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily." What is wrong with "calling on the Lord?" Out of a pure heart? This is encouraged in the Bible both in the Old and the New. Whether this was taught by Lee or not is incidental to Raptor's point here. What does the Bible say about meditating on the word of God?

Of course, Raptor was not speaking about some robotic LC practice, but Jo's could not discern that from the real thing. Raptor was sharing with the OP SonsToGlory about the very topic of this thread. But to Jo's, "calling on the Lord" is chanting. To him "pray-reading" the verses of the Bible is cultic. To him "meditating" on scripture is baby food to be disposed of. To him they are the "mentality of the mystic." To him they are some guilt-driven practices of ecstasy.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think UntoHim clinched it. Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep. Why would he have done that if the sheep don't need to eat? Also, the fact that Jesus told Peter three times to do this suggests that the feeding, and eating, is ongoing. I think this is clear enough, and I've never heard anyone else suggest otherwise. You would be hard pressed to find a mainstream Christian teacher who didn't believe that spiritual eating and drinking in some form should be part of the daily Christian life.

The LR's whole weird slant on the idea is, like everything else they slant weirdly, another story.

It might be worth pointing out here that "feeding" in the NT typically meant the actual consumption of real physical food. In Acts 6 the ministrations and dispensings to the widows was not messages and pray-reading, it was food. Likewise Paul and Barnabas "dispensing" in Acts 12:25 (RecV) ~ Cf Gal 2:10. Jesus fed the thousands, not with metaphysical 'spiritual food' but with real bread and fish. And James saw this innate tendency to spiritualise things away from reality when he noted the dismissal, "Be warmed and filled" when the recipient had neither (2:16).

I don't think there's anything wrong with praying, reading, or pray-reading. Or singing psalms. Or shouting to the heavens that Jesus is Lord. But like everything in this flesh of sin and delusion, it comes with qualifiers and caveats. The fact that it did have a "weird slant" in the LR should cue us to be watchful, alert. Actually various slants, any one of which is a cautionary tale in and of itself.

We were told to "shut off" or "get out of" our minds via pray-reading. This is contrary to Paul's balancing word (1 Cor 14:15).

When Jesus said, "Eat me and live" he didn't say, "via pray-reading". That was a man-made addition. And the fact that we uncritically accepted these man-made emendations, as I previously noted in the "God's economy" thread, should be very sobering to us today.

Jesus said, "My food is to do the will of the Father" and "As I live by the Father so also shall ye" and "As I obey the Father's commands so shall ye obey mine." Here, "food" is linked to "obedience", not making repetitive noises, "amen, amen..."

The chief proponent of "eating and drinking Jesus" in the LR could not "avoid every appearance of evil" as the apostle wrote (1 Thess 5:22). In fact this self-styled apostle wasn't fit to be assembly elder per Titus 1:6. So where did his "eating and drinking" get him? Or us, for that matter? What were we really "experiencing and enjoying" there?

In the mid-90s I saw a video smuggled out of China that showed a roomful of 100 - 150 people repeatedly shouting the verses of WL's "new hymn", which had the lines, "God became man to make man God, untraceable economy" as they sang it. Over and over they "chewed on" this material. And I'd bet everyone in that room would have told you they were "eating God" or somesuch. Manufactured group euphoria was held as a stand-in for "gaining Christ" in Philippians 3:8. But "Christ" is not some metaphysical commodity to be accumulated via shouting - "Exercise your spirit, brother!" - as in obedience to be found, at last, to be "in him" not only in confession and baptism but also in deeds to others. In our actions. "Be doers and not merely hearers" [and shouters] of the Word. This video came out at about the time WL told us proudly of the 15 or 20 million shouters affiliated with his ministry, which shouters were disavowed in toto ten years later by LSM, not merely because of persecution but also because of the bat-guano craziness going on in the mainland.

And related to the last point, note the close proximity to these practices and the entry of what seem to be "familiar spirits" for lack of a better term. Didn't MC recently testify of the "spirit of Brother Lee" among the LSM leadership, if I correctly recall a post on the Jo Casteel FB page?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"LOOOK .... there's an empty chair here (if he's here ... tho dead over 20 years) ... bro. mota agrees with me, my burden is his burden ..."

So by all means pray, and I do say by all means, including repetition, and while in scriptural reading. And call it what you will. But beware of those who in ignorance and greed market their mysticism. Look how closely Simon Magus pressed onto Philip and then Peter, trying for a cut of the action (Acts 8:9-24)! Don't let anyone defraud you of your prize.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Raptor

..looks like nobody here yet has a problem with praying, neither with reading, but if you put them together, "pray-read", somehow suddenly now that's really bad, and is immediately thrown out.

Sorry my friend Raptor, but this is Lee-logic. This is the kind of logic (or illogic as it were) that led Witness Lee to say "since the Son is called the Father in Isaiah 9:6, then the Son must be the Father!".(close paraphrase) I'm not saying that "pray-reading" is illogical per se, only that calling it "a biblical practice" is a huge stretch, and cannot be supported with the clear and plain words in the Scriptures.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry my friend Raptor, but this is Lee-logic. This is the kind of logic (or illogic as it were) that led Witness Lee to say "since the Son is called the Father in Isaiah 9:6, then the Son must be the Father!".(close paraphrase) I'm not saying that "pray-reading" is illogical per se, only that calling it "a biblical practice" is a huge stretch, and cannot be supported with the clear and plain words in the Scriptures.

But UntoHim are we now equivocating words? Have we lost the ability to communicate certain spiritual things with certain spiritual words (I Cor 2.13) on an open forum because of past Lee-isms, Lee-logics, and Lee-semantics?

Did not the Apostle Paul simple use necessary caveats when addressing such practices, perhaps spoiled in his day too? Consider 2 Tim 2.22, "call on the Lord out of a pure heart." I suspect LC-like "chanting" was also taking place in certain parts even in Paul's time.

I saw no indication in either Raptor's or SonsToGlory's posts promoting dead practices of vain ramblings based on LC exhortations from LSM ministry or meetings. On the contrary, Raptor and SonsToGlory also provided adequate descriptions to negate old-Lee-dead-practices during their thread discussion of eating and drinking daily.

Instead of Jo S jumping in to shoot down their discussions, should he not rather follow Paul's pattern to exhort the way of faith out of a pure heart?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But UntoHim are we now equivocating words? Have we lost the ability to communicate certain spiritual things with certain spiritual words (I Cor 2.13) on an open forum because of past Lee-isms, Lee-logics, and Lee-semantics?\

"Thy words were found and I did eat them and the word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of my heart" Jer 15:16

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints, Eph 6:17-18

"Let there be study of the divine word mingled with prayer" Jerome (340-420)

"It is also reasonable that the reading of the Holy Scripture be done with all prayer and groaning as well as praise and thanksgiving" August Hermann Francke (1663-1727)

"My mind being now more open and enlarged, I began to read the Holy Scriptures upon my knees, laying aside all other books and praying over, if possible, every line and word." George Whitefield (1714-1770)

"How blessed would the inner chamber be, what a power and an inspiration in our worship, if we only took God's word as from Himself, turning it into prayer." Andrew Murray (1828-1917)

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"Thy words were found and I did eat them and the word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of my heart" Jer 15:16

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints, Eph 6:17-18

"Let there be study of the divine word mingled with prayer" Jerome (340-420)

"It is also reasonable that the reading of the Holy Scripture be done with all prayer and groaning as well as praise and thanksgiving" August Hermann Francke (1663-1727)

"My mind being now more open and enlarged, I began to read the Holy Scriptures upon my knees, laying aside all other books and praying over, if possible, every line and word." George Whitefield (1714-1770)

"How blessed would the inner chamber be, what a power and an inspiration in our worship, if we only took God's word as from Himself, turning it into prayer." Andrew Murray (1828-1917)

The only verses I know of relating "eating" with the word are in Jeremiah, above, and its NT corollary in the Apocalypse. Now count up the OT references to obedience of God's word! Dozens. Are they all vain? Or do they tell us of Christ vis-a-vis the Father? In the gospels "eating food" spiritually is referred by Jesus as his obeying commands of the Father, not praying them. So Jeremiah (and John) may point to Christ's joy of obedience and expectation of reward (versus punishment). Nothing there about prayer per se.

The other references above to praying in the scriptures make no mention of "eating" that I can see. In Ephesians it is warfare. Whitefield's quote resonates with that - he was fighting for the gospel. Murray as well.

WL was the one who took such undue liberties. As I said before, if this was such a linchpin of true Christian experience wouldn't some one have made it more clear? Just like with 'God's economy' it was spun wholecloth from disparate fragments. Not stated as such in scripture.

Foundational truth should be incontrovertibly plain in scriptural text. Otherwise our speculations produce parties, quarrels, and worse.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

The only verses I know of relating "eating" with the word are Jeremiah, above, and its NT reference in the Apocalypse.

2 as newborn babes, long for the [b]spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation; 1Pet 2:2

2 I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able; (ICor 3:2)

13 For every one that partaketh of milk is [h]without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. 14 But solid food is for [i]fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. (Heb 5:13-14)

The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb. (Ps 19:9-10)


103 How sweet are thy words unto my [q]taste!
Yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! (Ps 119:103)

9 And when I looked, behold, a hand was put forth unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; 10 and he spread it before me: and it was written within and without; and there were written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. 1 And he said unto me, Son of man, eat that which thou findest; eat this roll, and go, speak unto the house of Israel. 2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat the roll. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. (Ezekiel 2:9-3:3)

12 I have not gone back from the commandment of his lips;
I have treasured up the words of his mouth [f]more than my [g]necessary food. (Job 23:12)

6 If thou put the brethren in mind of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which thou hast followed (1Tim 4:6)

[Jo S]

I'll attempt to lay it all out here so brace yourself, this will be a long post.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Instead of Jo S jumping in to shoot down their discussions, should he not rather follow Paul's pattern to exhort the way of faith out of a pure heart?

StG's title posed a specific question but in the body of his thread he made this statement, and I quote, "Any-a-ways - I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss."

So by this, he opened up the thread to a general discussion on the topic of "feasting on the Lord".

You can say I steered the conversation but the topic was maintained and the practice labeled mysticism. To say I'm "shooting down" the conversation, like you and Raptor are doing, is an emotional appeal. And to claim I'm not attempting to exhort is claiming you know my heart...

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]I want to say something to my brothers Son to Glory!, Raptor and Jo S, not really as a "moderator", but simply as a fellow forum member. I really think that you fellows are talking past each other instead of talking with each other......

UntoHim,

As the forum moderator, I have respect for what you do and I appreciate you trying to be the voice of reason here. However, despite your effort in keeping the peace serious topics such as faith based vs works based spirituality will cause sparks to fly. In the case of mysticism and Christianity "talking past each other" isn't possible because two different things are being presented. It's just hard to differentiate between the two because both are being presented as the same thing.

If I wasn't clear before, I'll say it again; There is no middle ground when it comes to this topic. Claiming that there are different spiritual approaches to Christ is like claiming that all religions lead to the same God...It's just not true.

Many LC'ers think that there's this dichotomy of you're either "spiritual" or you're "religious" aka a legalistic Christian but I'm telling you that spirituality can be inwardly idolatrous as well. Religion doesn't have to be outwardly ritualistic to be dead religion. Buddhists, Hindus, and many other spiritualists have a full spiritual life. They too chant, meditate, read religious texts, and pray (many even do it in Jesus's name) and receive all kinds of spiritual benefits like epiphanies and ecstasies but they don't actually know the Lord Jesus Christ. The point is, just because you're spiritual and focus on the inward realities through the lense of Christianity doesn't mean you're actually in the faith. (Matthew 7:21) That's why scripture exhorts us to constantly check ourselves and our spiritual life (2 Cor 13:5).

There is joy in salvation and in communion with God but when you turn this joy into something that needs to be pursued by mind altering meditative practices, as the Local Churches teach, it's an entirely different joy that you're embracing and it's not what a personal relationship with God looks like. As a Christian, God transforms our minds by grace alone through a process called sanctification. And this comes from an active relationship with God by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. It's an automated process sustained by ongoing faith, not meditative works. If you're trying to tap into something by your own practice and effort as if God's Spirit is somewhere way out there needing to be brought in, you're tapping into something else. It may be the spiritual realm you're tapping into but without the guidance of His Holy Spirit, you don't know what's going to come through. Scripture does warn us that Satan and his lies can appear as light.

What tends to happen when groups like the Local Churches neglect biblical repentance is they fall into mysticism and start practicing the "salvation" of the eastern mystic religions (called spiritual liberation or nirvana) but as with the Local Churches their mysticism is just repackaged in Christianity. Many don't recognize the bait and switch just as the Jews didn't recognize they were worshipping foreign gods judging from the fact that they were still praising God with their lips but their hearts were far away from Him.

In a Christian's life, prayer and song are the outflow of the Holy Spirit and not something used to bring an inflow of the spirit into a believer like pray-reading aims to do. As someone else said, reading scripture back to God (or feasting on His Word as in this thread's topic), wasn't a practice invented by the Local Churches but it came through Catholicism and it is a practice of mysticism. Originally it was called Lectio Divina. Because "Lectio Devina" (in any form) essentially makes a food idol out of God's Word, it's a practice to be cautious of. Scripture teaches that when we pray and sing, it's not for our own pleasure, but for the benefit of God's will and for others and not because we're empty and need filling but because we're already full of the Holy Spirit. If you find yourself working toward experiences (or "joy of the Lord" as it's called in the LR) or thinking you're made righteous or fed by prayer or song then you're practicing mysticism not Christianity.

Also, when you're at the point where you're objectifying Jesus rather than viewing him as a person in a relatable human relationship, red flags should go up and you need to stop and ask yourself if that is something the apostles taught. Did they teach Jesus was merely a buffet table or a spiritual rollercoaster ride? I know it can be made to sound spiritual but it's not scripture and it leads to the wrong mindset. The only time Jesus should be view as food and drink is as the sacrificial lamb. And eating him (or accepting his sacrifice) in that context is a one time event because his crucifixion was a one time event. If your faith was tried and true by repentance, in receiving the Holy Spirit, a spring of living water will be inside of you welling up into eternal life. You'll no longer have to travel to the well and draw from it like the women did and as mystics try to do.

Mixing biblical food language can get you false doctrine and works based spirituality. An example is John 21. When Christ tells Peter to feed his sheep, he's simply placing the responsibility of bringing the gospel to the Jewish people onto Peter's shoulders. There is nothing deep , hidden, or mystical that needs to be taken from that figurative language. If there is any continual feeding in the NT, it's that of milk until unregenerate believers are ready to fully embrace the gospel and repent. But milk won't sustain you on a long journey, you need solid food and the Local Churches gave you neither. Instead you were given sugar and taught not to enter through the gate (Jesus) but how to climb over the fence (meaning force you're way into the spiritual realm through mysticism).

I know the difference between mysticism and true biblical Christianity from personal experience so I know what to look for. The answer to all this isn't to get out our minds, stop analyzing the menu, cover our eyes and ears to all the detail, and just get into the spirit as if that's that will solve the issue; It's to take heed.

The first thing Jesus warns us about the end-times and his coming was this; “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

Mysticism disguised as Christianity is known as gnosticism. And it was these gnostics that the apostles continuously warned God's people of. They were called false apostles, false prophets, and false converts. Outwardly they were professing Christians, yet inwardly they were mystics and ravenous wolves. So here's where things start getting really uncomfortable.

Watchman Nee claimed he was the sole possessor of Christ's vision of his church. Witness Lee later carried Nee's torch and claimed he was the sole minister of this vision. Today you have leadership of two factions (LSM/GLA) fighting over possession of Nee's vision, which they both still embrace as being Christ's. So you have to ask yourself; is it typical behavior of a Holy Spirit filled Christian to make such outlandish and audacious claims as being the one's in sole possession of the end-times vision for the entire body of Christ? Where else can you find this kind of boast outside other heretical religious groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Catholicism, and the NAR?

No matter who you are, to say that you're in possession of Christ's vision for his church IS essentially claiming you are Christ because only Christ can possess and manifest this revelation.


Recall Christ's warning;

Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Like Ohio, many wonder how things got so bad within the Local Churches. But rather than getting to the root of the problem, they stop short, stand on top of the tree stump, and project blame. Because to admit Nee taught mysticism means that you, as an initial supporter of Watchman Nee and his ministry, partook of the fruit and practiced in this idolatrous form of spirituality. Ignoring the real issue and blaming others is easier than taking responsibility for one's own actions and turning to God in repentance.

To claim things went bad in the Local Churches is to imply they were right in the beginning. Saying things went from bad to worse I believe is more accurate seeing as the Local Churches were always build upon the foundation of mysticism. And just as with sugar, there was a quick high in the Lord's Recovery but no nutrients to maintain good health. Eventually this diet of false spirituality caused skin outbreaks and depression. Simply put, the fruits of the Local Church went bad because the tree was bad. And the tree was bad because the roots were not in good soil. The fruit was rotten from within, it just took some time to manifest outwardly.

I realize a number of you lost many good years to the Local Churches but the truth is you'll lose even more if you stay luke warm and continue to compromise in your view toward this group and it's leaders whether that's by sympathizing with Nee, Lee, LSM, GLA, or continuing in their heretical practices and doctrines. It's all from the same tree...

If you're truly in Christ, there's no condemnation from him when we fall short. I once had to repent of partaking in a season of mysticism and it was not a fun time in my life but Jesus was always there waiting to embrace me with open arms. He's since used that experience for good which I hope and pray can be of benefit to others here.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

2 as newborn babes, long for the [b]spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation; 1Pet 2:2.............

Again, where do the NT references suggest pray-reading? And how do you know the OT references aren't Christ's obedience to the Father's commandments? His gospel usage seems to indicate that.

[Cal]

Frankly, Jo S, you are beginning to sound like a complete wacko to me.

You are here to save everyone from the evils of "mysticism," are you? You have it all figured out, do you? Well, keep telling yourself that. Everyone needs a fantasy.

Beam me up, moderator. We have another live one.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

Again, where do the NT references suggest pray-reading? And how do you know the OT references aren't Christ's obedience to the Father's commandments? His gospel usage seems to indicate that.

What are you saying? Do you now ignore the OT?

OT examples

25And now, O Jehovah God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, confirm thou it for ever, and do as thou hast spoken. (2 Sam 7:25)

12And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. (Gen 32:12)

13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. (Ex 32:13)

58
I entreated thy favor with my whole heart:
Be merciful unto me according to thy word. (Ps 119:58)

25Now therefore, O Jehovah, the God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, [d]There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel, if only thy children take heed to their way, to walk before me as thou hast walked before me. (1Kings 8:25)

O Jehovah, who saidst unto me, (Gen 32:9)

17And now, I pray thee, let the power of the Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, (Num 14:17)

Daniel 9:2 shows Daniel praying according to what he read in Jeremiah.

Ezra 9:11-12 are prayers that are verbatim from the word of God.

8Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, (Neh 1:8)

New Testament Examples

1. Compare Paul’s prayer in Ephesians 1:20-22 with Psalm 110 and Psalm 8. Paul was praying the word.

2. Consider Paul’s word to take the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God by means of all prayer.

3. We are taught to pray the Lord’s prayer.

4. Acts 7:59-60 (NIV)
"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Then he fell on his knees and cried out, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.' When he had said this, he fell asleep."

Prayer is taken verbatim from the Lord when the Lord was crucified.

5. 14And this is the boldness which we have toward him, that, if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us: (1Jn 5:14). Is the New Covenant God's will? So then, John instructs us to pray the New Covenant.

[UntoHim]

ZNP, none of the verses you quote, Old Testament or New, show anything close to the "pray-reading" that is practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not even close. Please stop taking up space and time with quoting reams and reams of verses. It does not make the case that it is a scriptural practice...not even close
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP, none of the verses you quote, Old Testament or New, show anything close to the "pray-reading" that is practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not even close. Please stop taking up space and time with quoting reams and reams of verses. It does not make the case that it is a scriptural practice...not even close
-

Are you saying that the practice of "pray-reading" in the LC's was perfectly homogeneous across the US?

Perhaps this is getting mixed up with LSM's push of PSRP, the practice of praying, studying, reciting, and prophecying training outlines.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP, none of the verses you quote, Old Testament or New, show anything close to the "pray-reading" that is practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not even close. Please stop taking up space and time with quoting reams and reams of verses. It does not make the case that it is a scriptural practice...not even close
-

I don't have the slightest interest in defending the practice of the LC, my point is the spirit of praying the word is Biblical. It is taught in the Bible and practiced in the Bible and this has been picked up and taught by men of God ever since.

This is how pray reading was first understood in Houston, all of the verses I shared were shared by RG and used by him in his book. But the LC changed the practice as a way to make the "gold bar" an indispensable requirement for the meetings. That also was a development in Houston, pushed by EM. "Pray Reading" the footnotes as a testimony. Easy way for the LSM fanatics to give testimonies, easy way to sell the $50 bibles to saints who already had many bibles. "with covetousness they will make merchandise of you". That is what makes WL a false prophet. Praying the word of God is not what makes him false, using the pretense of praying the word of God in order to make merchandise of the saints, that is what makes him a false prophet.

I take my stand on the declaration of Paul, that no prayer is genuine which springs not from faith, and that faith cometh by the Word of God. (Rom. 10:14) In these words, he has, if I mistake not, distinctly intimated that the Word of God is the only sure foundation for prayer. John Calvin

[Jo S]

Here are two websites to help more understand Lectio Divina aka "pray-reading".

What is Lectio Divina

The danger of Lectio Divina

[aron]

I know it's tempting to think the Bible is about you and your experiences and enjoyments but it isn't. It's about Jesus.

(not writing this to anyone in particular but the post-Protestant reader)

The watershed moment for me was reading the RecV in Deuteronomy, talking about the King of Israel and God's word. WL's footnote said it was about the LC elder's experience 'reigning in Christ'. This after panning most of similar works of obeying God's commands as 'concepts of fallen well-meaning men'.

No, the King of Israel obeying God's command is Jesus of Nazareth. When I saw the RecV footnote I realised what a self-centered, myopic, and baseless world had been created. It was either "fallen humanity trying to be good (but no one can be good [ignoring Christ])" or "the NT believer enjoying grace". No Jesus - occasionally a vague, generic "Christ".

I see the "eating Jesus" as similar. Focused on the self and it's temporal experiences as if they are of themselves real. Guess what - they maybe *are* and they maybe *are not* and you will find out eventually when the fire makes all clear. Until then don't trust your experiences and enjoyments. Sometimes you are channeling the Father and sometimes the Adversary. Only Jesus is 100% God 100% of the time. Trust him - not your "enjoyment" or your "eating" or whatever you call it.

Peter is the paragon in the NT - he enjoyed grace and he stumbled. We saw both. Don't trust yourself. Don't trust your practices. Don't trust the merchandisers either. They are even further away.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

I see the "eating Jesus" as similar. Focused on the self and it's temporal experiences as if they are of themselves real. Guess what - they maybe *are* and they maybe *are not* and you will find out eventually when the fire makes all clear. Until then don't trust your experiences and enjoyments. Sometimes you are channeling the Father and sometimes the Adversary. Only Jesus is 100% God 100% of the time. Trust him - not your "enjoyment" or your "eating" or whatever you call it.

There are two sacraments in the NT -- Baptism and the Lord's supper.

These two things signify the entire Christian life: being immersed into the Triune God and eating the Lord's body and blood. "Eating Jesus" is shorthand for the Lord's supper being the Christian life.

[least]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you saying that the practice of "pray-reading" in the LC's was perfectly homogeneous across the US?

Perhaps this is getting mixed up with LSM's push of PSRP, the practice of praying, studying, reciting, and prophecying training outlines.

Recent videos on youtube I found PSRP practised before, in between, and after spoken messages. The conference attendants were told to psrp passage(s) in handout all together and to each other. And repeat to each other certain words/sentences the speaker said. No reading from the bible, only mentioned that there are verses listed in the handout, sometimes all were told to read a verse together, sometimes told can go home and read it for yourself. Sometimes the speaker read bible verse(s) or mentioned the verse(s).

PSRP handout outlines
PSRP handout main points, sub-points ...
PSRP handout passages
PSRP theme slogans
PSRP theme songs
PSRP what speaker said

PSRP all together
PSRP to the one next to you

Up-to-date LSM churches practice - PSRP LSM publications.
And we are arguing over the 'old' practice of LC pray-reading ... (bible?)

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

Boy has this thread spiraled out of control! Who the heck is the moderator around this joint? I hope he does't quit his day job...what? This IS his day job? Lord have mercy!

I thought it started off with a pretty straight forward, simple proposition as given by Sons to Glory. At some point I recited the well-known lyrics to a couple of still popular Local Church songs:
"Hallelujah eating Jesus is the way!", and "We have found the way to live by Christ - Pray His Word and call His name!" These lyrics fit perfectly in with the teachings and practices of the Local Church of Witness Lee that I have been intimately familiar with for about 44 years now. This matter of pray-reading and calling on the Lord shouldn't be controversial around this place. They are the very pillars, the very basics in "the churchlife" of the vast majority of LC members.

What is controversial, in my view, is that these teachings and practices should be considered as biblical. Neither is there any evidence that the early apostles taught, or that the early church practiced anything like what has been taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee for close to 50 years now. No one on this thread has provided one verse. No one on this thread has provided one shred of evidence that any other significant and legitimate Christian group throughout church history has taught and practiced pray-reading and calling on the Lord as it has been taught and practiced in the Local Church.

I'm not the one that opened the Pandora's Box of "many posts and members discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry." That would be my esteemed and valued brother Raptor. However when I asked him to give us some concrete examples he flew the coup on us. Come on bro! I was really hoping that you would put those deadly talons to work and dig up some strong biblical and historical evidence to support the Local Church practices of pray-reading and calling on the Lord.

And your equally esteemed and valued brother Ohio has not helped the cause I'm afraid. "Are you saying that the practice of "pray-reading" in the LC's was perfectly homogeneous across the US?" That's weak, my brother, really weak. No one is asking if these practices were perfectly homogeneous, I'm just asking if they are perfectly biblical. Hey, even slightly biblical will work for the time being. Equally as important, in my estimation, is where is the evidence that pray-reading and calling on the Lord (AS IT IS TAUGHT AND PRACTICED IN THE LOCAL CHURCH) ever been taught and practiced in recorded church history? If these are such high and grandiose "recovered truths" then point us to where and when they were recovered from.
-

[aron]

To encapsulate: the "I" of Jeremiah's "Thy words were found and I did eat them" is not the NT believer who is pray-reading but Jesus who is obeying, if we look at his "My food is to do the Father's will" (John 4:24).

Jesus is the Obedient Son. "I come to do thy will, O God - behold in the scroll of the book is written concerning me". See also Luke 24:44 - Jesus is either megalomaniac and madman, or Messiah (the resurrection affirms the latter). In both verses above it's the doing that's stressed. "Be doers of the word, not hearers (pray-readers and message-listeners)."

Now, as the Second Moses (Deut 18:15; Acts 7:37), he commands to obey him, and feed his sheep. Since he already taught to give to those who could not repay, maybe this meant to feed the poor. Like, real physical food to destitute people. In the Acts and Paul's epistles this seems to be the apostles' focus.

Remember that back then there was no Social Service or Public Welfare programme. If you didn't have, you begged or you starved, or were enslaved. For Paul's repeated stress, see 1 Cor 16:1-4; 2 Cor 8:1- 9:15; Rom 15:14-32; also Gal 2:10 and Acts 24:17 - "Then after several years I returned to bring alms to the poor".

Nothing of pray-reading as 'spiritual eating'. Certainly not the "central lane of the divine economy" in the NT as the current LSM President tried to tell us from the dais.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No one is asking if these practices were perfectly homogeneous, I'm just asking if they are perfectly biblical. Hey, even slightly biblical will work for the time being. Equally as important, in my estimation, is where is the evidence that pray-reading and calling on the Lord (AS IT IS TAUGHT AND PRACTICED IN THE LOCAL CHURCH) ever been taught and practiced in recorded church history? If these are such high and grandiose "recovered truths" then point us to where and when they were recovered from.
-

What is important to me is making sense of this. In many cases they veered off from the truth. Why?

The practice described in "Lord Thou Saidst" compiled by Ray Graver and published by LSM in 1981 is undeniably Biblical and certainly taught and practiced in church history. That was the point of the book at a time when the lawsuits were accusing the Recovery of "chanting", etc.

However, that book does not resemble the practice that is described by people currently meeting with the LC, why? The book is no longer listed on LSM's website, why?

I think this exposes the "have my cake and eat it too" mentality. If the saints read that book "pray reading" is no longer the great discovery of WL, also the practice the saints have will appear a very poor imitation or knock off of the real thing. And yet they want to be accepted as part of fundamental Christianity and WL is no longer alive. As a result I conclude that the value of "LC pray reading" to require saints to purchase LSM published materials outweighs any reasons they would have for the saints to read that book.

I think this is evidence for those who saw a distinct change in the nature of the LC before 1980 and after 1980. In that book Ray gives a personal testimony about how he was very moved with the verse in Acts when the leaders realized the disciples "had been with Jesus". He had been with Jesus, they are attacking the church for bringing in far eastern practices of pray reading and calling on the Lord. He is running to the defense, innocently and naively. But by the time his book is published LSM is building a training center in Irving, he is the foreman, he is running a wing of the publishing business, and the elders in Anaheim are being pushed out opening the door for Benson and Ray to take over. From that point selling books for LSM outweighs the narrow way that leads to life.

This book itemizes quotes from 56 bible teachers other than WL. Anyone who reads this book will immediately discover an entire world of ministers of the pure word outside of LSM, outside of WL and the blendeds. That to me is why this book had to be ditched.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

To encapsulate: the "I" of Jeremiah's "Thy words were found and I did eat them" is not the NT believer who is pray-reading but Jesus who is obeying, if we look at his "My food is to do the Father's will" (John 4:24).

I could never accept that Jeremiah's pleas (15:15-16) were the exclusive voice of Jesus obeying the Father. God's people throughout the age have been encouraged by Jeremiah's words. This narrowest of readings would effectively insulate many children of God during their most difficult trials from His grace. How many of them during their own personal calamities "found His word, ate His word, and His words caused their hearts to rejoice."

Who knows, and who cares, by what manner this has transpired in the faith relationship between some needy believer and his/her Savior. Perhaps they were shouting "Jesus," perhaps silent prayer, perhaps weeping tears, perhaps sitting at table with Bible open repeating His words. None, by themselves, is THE way to God's grace because He alone is the way to God, yet all of these and more are "ways" used by His people.

It seems at times that LC/Lee animus here is taken too far. All shouting is now wrong because there are "Shouters" associated with this movement. Prophesying likewise is banned. Vocal prayer, while reading scripture, is outlawed. The list of taboos is growing daily. Personally I think this discredits the forum, but that's me.

How do you know whether the one pray-reading the Bible is now finding strength to obey the Father? Jesus in the wilderness (Man does not live by bread alone ...) needed the words of God to fight His enemy. Was He not a pattern for us all? Is not His word to be our food? Does it not take a struggle at times to find this food in His word?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is important to me is making sense of this. In many cases they veered off from the truth. Why?

The practice described in "Lord Thou Saidst" compiled by Ray Graver and published by LSM in 1981 is undeniably Biblical and certainly taught and practiced in church history. That was the point of the book at a time when the lawsuits were accusing the Recovery of "chanting", etc.

This book itemizes quotes from 56 bible teachers other than WL. Anyone who reads this book will immediately discover an entire world of ministers of the pure word outside of LSM, outside of WL and the blendeds. That to me is why this book had to be ditched.

Reminds me of the booklet, "Beliefs and Practices of the Local Churches."

If you read that, the LC's sound so "normal," and have so much in common with the rest of the evangelical community. Definitely Lee and LSM love to have it both ways. They cling to the benign "common faith" when talking to outsiders, they promote their exclusive "high peaks" when talking to insiders. To the normal believer, these two are irreconcilable differences. To the Blendeds, it all makes so much sense.

For me "pray-reading" was according to the initial teachings by Lee. It was reinforced by Graver's compilations in his booklet. It's like holding in your heart the original "bread-breaking" practice of Acts 2.42,46 while receiving communion at Catholic Mass. Is it by faith or merely mechanical? Is God present or just duty? Is it in Spirit and reality, or just a dead practice in a gothic style edifice?

This is the complication when discussing Pray-Reading. Is it as officially taught or as practiced? Obviously to most insiders, it was all practice, and a practice which constantly was evolving. A practice now despised by most ex-members, and being thrown out in toto, whether there is a baby or not.

[Cal]

You fools! What difference does it make if pray-reading is biblical?!

IT'S MYSTICISM! MYSTICISM, I TELL YA!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You fools! What difference does it make if pray-reading is biblical?!

IT'S MYSTICISM! MYSTICISM, I TELL YA!!

Or worse!

Chinese mysticism.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Or worse!

Chinese mysticism.

Oooooooooo.

[Sons to Glory!]

Wow - I was concerned a little that while I traveled this thread would languish . . . but to the contrary, maybe I should go on travel more! You guys are having way too much fun without me.

So I don't know where or how the practice started, or what it should or shouldn't be called. "But this I know" (as the hymn starts out) that I enjoy taking the word many times by prayer. I usually start out in the morning in a fuzzy-headed condition. I may breath the name of Jesus or say "Thank you Lord for this day" a couple times, and then I get into the word. I may start out reading a few verses to myself, but then read them aloud. And then I'm moved to pray something like, "Lord thank you that I can take everything to you in prayer and thank you I don't need to be anxious for anything." This, for instance, would be a way of speaking Philippians 4:7-8 back to Him. I enjoy doing this kind of thing and often might then break out in song to Him, or whatever I feel led to do or speak.

This practice, no mater what it might get called, will not be given up by me unless the Anointing tells me I should! And I don't believe He would tell me that, because it is fresh and living and of Him! It is nourishing and I am fed of Christ to pursue Him all the more. Argue the merits of this if you must, but I don't think anyone can sway me. To me, this is a way to get my head wrapped around Him and what is true, AND be nourished in spirit.

Jo, dear brother, please forgive us if we go over the line with you and don't exhibit brotherly love. I do want to hear what you say, and do consider it. (As Ohio said yesterday, it causes me to seek Him more and get answers from Him.) The last couple days whilst I was traveling, I also thought we might start a separate thread on "Christian Mysticism," since it keeps being brought up you (Jo) on various threads. Maybe we should examine this further, apart from specific the topic at hand - which is, Who emphasizes eating and drink Jesus besides the LC?

Now I think it is well established, at least to me, that eating & drinking is a main topic in the Bible, and can be readily shown from the first two chapters in Genesis to the last two chapters in Revelation. And I think it is also established well, again - at least to me, that the LC's practice of mindless chanting is off the mark and not to be emulated. Are there any current ekklesias you know of who teach and/or practice something of eating & drinking the Lord?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You fools! What difference does it make if pray-reading is biblical?!

IT'S MYSTICISM! MYSTICISM, I TELL YA!!

Hudson Taylor, William Law, Andrew Murray, Darby, George Muller, Robert Govett, Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, A.B. Simpson, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John Calvin, Martin Luther, William Tyndale. These are all quoted in "Lord Thou Saidst" -- are they mystics?

"If ye abide in Me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you". Was John a mystic? Jesus?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Hudson Taylor, William Law, Andrew Murray, Darby, George Muller, Robert Govett, Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, A.B. Simpson, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John Calvin, Martin Luther, William Tyndale. These are all quoted in "Lord Thou Saidst" -- are they mystics?

"If ye abide in Me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you". Was John a mystic? Jesus?

A brother not long ago told me, "When someone knows the Indwelling Christ they might get labeled as a mystic."

So should we start a thread on "Christian Mysticism?"

[UntoHim]

No, let's steer clear of the "mystical" stuff for now. I think we have enough controversial things to kick around without juggling that hot potato. Besides, I don't really think many insiders or outsiders would consider Witness Lee and his followers as "mystics". Maybe Watchman Nee is viewed as a mystic by some observers, especially in his younger "Spiritual Man" days, but Watchman Nee has not been the major influence in the LC movement for about 70 years now.

Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily? Let's discuss! I think we might want to follow a little bit of wisdom dispensed by Dennis Prager - "Let us value clarity over agreement". I think we can avoid a lot of unnecessary food fights if we take this little adage to heart.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So I don't know where or how the practice started, or what it should or shouldn't be called. "But this I know" (as the hymn starts out) that I enjoy taking the word many times by prayer. ...This practice, no mater what it might get called, will not be given up by me unless the Anointing tells me ....Maybe we should examine this further, apart from specific the topic at hand - which is, Who emphasizes eating and drink Jesus besides the LC?

Now I think it is well established, at least to me, that eating & drinking is a main topic in the Bible, and can be readily shown from the first two chapters in Genesis to the last two chapters in Revelation. And I think it is also established well, again - at least to me, that the LC's practice of mindless chanting is off the mark and not to be emulated. Are there any current ekklesias you know of who teach and/or practice something of eating & drinking the Lord?

I pray in the Bible. Maybe others object, but I have not. But please look at the title of the thread -- where does it say in the Bible that praying in scripture is eating Jesus? Just give me one verse. Thanks.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

I pray in the Bible. Maybe others object, but I have not. But please look at the title of the thread -- where does it say in the Bible that praying in scripture is eating Jesus? Just give me one verse. Thanks.

Can you clarify? This isn't clear to me - you don't object to praying scripture? thx

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No, let's steer clear of the "mystical" stuff for now. I think we have enough controversial things to kick around without juggling that hot potato. Besides, I don't really think many insiders or outsiders would consider Witness Lee and his followers as "mystics". Maybe Watchman Nee is viewed as a mystic by some observers, especially in his younger "Spiritual Man" days, but Watchman Nee has not been the major influence in the LC movement for about 70 years now.

Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily? Let's discuss! I think we might want to follow a little bit of wisdom dispensed by Dennis Prager - "Let us value clarity over agreement". I think we can avoid a lot of unnecessary food fights if we take this little adage to heart.
-

I'm a big Prager fan and that's perhaps his best line! (but still think the separate Christian Mystic thread might be interesting to some of us)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Hudson Taylor, William Law, Andrew Murray, Darby, George Muller, Robert Govett, Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, A.B. Simpson, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John Calvin, Martin Luther, William Tyndale. These are all quoted in "Lord Thou Saidst" -- are they mystics?

"If ye abide in Me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you". Was John a mystic? Jesus?

Like so much of the conversation, unless we define mysticism, we cannot have an intelligible discussion.

Same goes with pray-reading and eating Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I pray in the Bible. Maybe others object, but I have not. But please look at the title of the thread -- where does it say in the Bible that praying in scripture is eating Jesus? Just give me one verse. Thanks.

Is that a joke? Just gimme one verse! I could play that game with every truth in the Bible.

Receive the word of God by means of all prayer. Eph 6.17

The words I speak to you are spirit and life. John 6.63

Jesus is the living bread. The bread He gives is His flesh. John 6.51

My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink. John 6.55

He who eats me shall live because of Me. John 6.57

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that a joke? Just gimme one verse! I could play that game with every truth in the Bible.

Receive the word of God by means of all prayer. Eph 6.17

The words I speak to you are spirit and life. John 6.63

Jesus is the living bread. The bread He gives is His flesh. John 6.51

My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink. John 6.55

He who eats me shall live because of Me. John 6.57

ADD: "And the word became flesh" (John 1:14) AND “If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you” (John 15:7)

[Cal]

Quoting God's word back to him in prayer. What could be more wholesome? Anyone who has a problem with that would have a problem with little girls who love puppies.




Hold on. Just a minute. That girl looks a bit mystical. And look at that puppy she's holding. He's obviously a mystic.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Can you clarify? This isn't clear to me - you don't object to praying scripture? thx

No I don't. But the title of the thread talks about "Eating and Drinking Jesus Daily". My question is: where does the Bible say that praying in the scripture is "Eating and Drinking Jesus [Daily]"?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that a joke? Just gimme one verse! I could play that game with every truth in the Bible.

Receive the word of God by means of all prayer. Eph 6.17 EATING? WHERE?

The words I speak to you are spirit and life. John 6.63 EATING? WHERE? PRAYING?

Jesus is the living bread. The bread He gives is His flesh. John 6.51 PRAYING? WHERE?

My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink. John 6.55 PRAYING? WHERE?

He who eats me shall live because of Me. John 6.57 PRAYING? WHERE?

You are conflating. Look at what scripture says, then look at what you think it is saying.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Quoting God's word back to him in prayer. What could be more wholesome? Anyone who has a problem with that would have a problem with little girls who love puppies.




Hold on. Just a minute. That girl looks a bit mystical. And look at that puppy she's holding. He's obviously a mystic.

"Quoting God's word back to him in prayer"

The title of the thread is "EATING AND DRINKING JESUS DAILY"

Where is the connection? In scripture? Or in your mind?

I don't recall any Biblical text saying that praying scripture back to God is eating and drinking Jesus. Could someone please point one out to me?

When Jesus talked about his food in John 4:24, he didn'teven infer pray-reading. He was talking of obedience to the Father's will. Jeremiah talked of God's word being food. He didn't talk of pray-reading. Jesus talked of eating his flesh. He didn't say, "By praying scripture."

Conversely, when Paul wrote of receiving the word via prayer, he didn't mention food. The context was warfare.

Why is this? Why do so many here think the scripture is saying something that isn't even inferred?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

No I don't. But the title of the thread talks about "Eating and Drinking Jesus Daily". My question is: where does the Bible say that praying in the scripture is "Eating and Drinking Jesus [Daily]"?

John 1:14 says the word became flesh (Jesus)

John 6:51 says that Jesus is the Living bread, that man is to eat this bread, and that the bread He gives us is His flesh.

John 6:53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.

Hence the term "eating Jesus". Of course this verse caused a lot of discomfort, so a few verses later Jesus clarified:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

and hence the interpretation that pray reading the word is "eating His flesh"

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

John 1:14 says the word became flesh (Jesus)

John 6:51 says that Jesus is the Living bread, that man is to eat this bread, and that the bread He gives us is His flesh.

John 6:53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.

Hence the term "eating Jesus". Of course this verse caused a lot of discomfort, so a few verses later Jesus clarified:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

and hence the interpretation that pray reading the word is "eating His flesh"

Well now we're finally getting somewhere! Amazing that such a simple request could be so confounding. So we have "an interpretation". That's better.

If you look at John 6, the key (for me) seems to be the Father's will. All who look to (believe in) Jesus will receive eternal life. No mention of pray-reading. The connotation is believing that Jesus' words are from the Father and that in the believing there is eternal life.

Of course there is confession. Peter confesses the Lord in verses 68 and 69.

The reason Jesus' words are life is because of [his] obedience. Declaring is part of the solution. But declaring without obedience is vain. To me, that is what is inferred in this passage. Not pray-reading.

Jesus's obedience to the Father, and our realization (faith in) Jesus effects the transfer of the Father's will (eternal life) to us. Prayer is good. Jesus spent all night in prayer. But his food was obedience not pray-reading.

The Father's words [expressed will] were eternal life to him through obedience, not prayer. Ditto us with Jesus' words. That's what is inferred here. I don't think prayer is even mentioned in John 6.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

The reason Jesus' words are life is because of [his] obedience. Declaring is part of the solution. But declaring without obedience is vain. To me, that is what is inferred in this passage. Not pray-reading.

Jesus's obedience to the Father, and our realization (faith in) Jesus effects the transfer of the Father's will (eternal life) to us. Prayer is good. Jesus spent all night in prayer. But his food was obedience not pray-reading.

The Father's words [expressed will] were eternal life to him through obedience, not prayer. Ditto us with Jesus' words. That's what is inferred here. I don't think prayer is even mentioned in John 6.

"My mind being now more open and enlarged, I began to read the Holy Scriptures upon my knees, laying aside all other books and praying over, if possible, every line and word. This proved meat indeed, and drink indeed, to my soul. I daily received fresh life, light, and power from above." George Whitefield, George Whitefield's journals, p.60

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

"Quoting God's word back to him in prayer"

The title of the thread is "EATING AND DRINKING JESUS DAILY"

Where is the connection? In scripture? Or in your mind?

Sorry. I thought we were discussing pray-reading as well.

All my wanderings into mysticism must have addled my mind.

Carry on!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Sorry. I thought we were discussing pray-reading as well.

All my wanderings into mysticism must have addled my mind.

Carry on!

The title of the thread is "Eating Jesus". The OP said that this was pray-reading. You mentioned pray-reading so I assumed you agreed with the OP, and I was looking for scriptural basis.

But if you don't agree by all means do carry on. I was making an assumption. Forgive my intrusion, if my assumptions were unfounded.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"My mind being now more open and enlarged, I began to read the Holy Scriptures upon my knees, laying aside all other books and praying over, if possible, every line and word. This proved meat indeed, and drink indeed, to my soul. I daily received fresh life, light, and power from above." George Whitefield, George Whitefield's journals, p.60

I'm looking for support from scripture. John 4 has Jesus' food being obedience - doing the Father's will. John 6 has our faith [in his obedience] leading to the transfer of this will [eternal life] to us through our receiving his word [our obedience to his command/expressed will]. This allows his word to be the food that lives forever in us and we in it. Nothing spoken nor inferred of prayer/pray-reading that I see.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

I'm looking for support from scripture. John 4 has Jesus' food being obedience - doing the Father's will. John 6 has our faith [in his obedience] leading to the transfer of this will [eternal life] to us through our receiving his word [our obedience to his command/expressed will]. This allows his word to be the food that lives forever in us and we in it. Nothing spoken nor inferred of prayer/pray-reading that I see.

Chapter 6 begins with the question — where shall we buy bread that these may eat? And why were so many following Him? Because of the sick that He had healed.

The next day these same multitudes came to Capernaum seeking Jesus. Then Jesus tells them:

27Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is a simple analogy — you go to work to get paid so you can buy food and eat. The payment is faith, and the food is the flesh of Jesus, which is his words, and it is the spirit that is nourished, not your flesh. You cannot get faith without the word, faith cometh from hearing and hearing by the word of God. So you are laboring in the word. You mix faith with the word and the written word becomes the spoken word, that is your food. Jesus is the word that feeds our soul, it gives us hope, faith, and love.

“God’s Word is the fuel for our prayer. As we open the page in the morning, the promises prompt us to prayer, the examples incite us to prayer, the warnings urge us to prayer, the hopes of glory stir us to prayer — everything in the portion taken for our meditation can be turned into prayer…Depend upon it, hiding God’s word in the heart is the secret of prayer, and the reason why our prayer life is so weak and barren is that we do not know God through His Word.” (W.H. Griffith Thomas, Life Abiding and Abounding, p.15)

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You mix faith with the word and the written word becomes the spoken word, that is your food. Jesus is the word that feeds our soul, it gives us hope, faith, and love.

This is good ZNP. Actually Christians have been teaching and preaching these exact things for over 2,000 years now! Any teacher, preacher, pastor, elder, evangelist, biblical scholar should be teaching and preaching these things, and I would say that the majority are doing just that. Oh, they may not use the exact verbiage that some of us have heard, but the thrust of the message is the basically the same.

What some of us are waiting to hear is to tie this all into pray-reading and calling on the Lord HAS IT IS PRACTICED IN THE LOCAL CHURCH OF WITNESS LEE. I know you say things were different in your locality back in the late 70s(?) So help us to understand. How was this "eating & drinking Jesus daily" so much better and so much more biblical than what we see today in the Local Church? Please don't quote Ray Graver's book or even any more verses. You quoted enough verses. Let's get down to brass tacks bro.

Describe your "biblical" experience with pray-reading. Describe your "biblical" experience with calling on the Lord.

This "challenge" is also for my friend Sons to Glory! as well. How is this "eating and drinking of Jesus daily" there in Scottsdale differed (if at all) from your earlier experience in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Please be practical as you possibly can.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

The title of the thread is "Eating Jesus". The OP said that this was pray-reading. You mentioned pray-reading so I assumed you agreed with the OP, and I was looking for scriptural basis.

I don't think I said that, did I? I think it just came about as something of an equivalent in the discussion. My question was more about who else is preaching and/or practices the eating & drinking of Jesus routinely. (If I did say that, I really didn't mean to . . .)

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Describe your "biblical" experience with pray-reading. Describe your "biblical" experience with calling on the Lord. [/COLOR]

This "challenge" is also for my friend Sons to Glory! as well. How is this "eating and drinking of Jesus daily" there in Scottsdale differed (if at all) from your earlier experience in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Please be practical as you possibly can.
-

UntoHim - I've written what this (eating/drinking/calling) experience looks like to me on a daily basis, in a couple posts on this thread (see posts 34 & 84), but nobody has commented yet on these. Did these not address your question or did you not read?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I don't think I said that, did I? I think it just came about as something of an equivalent in the discussion. My question was more about who else is preaching and/or practices the eating & drinking of Jesus routinely. (If I did say that, I really didn't mean to . . .)

The title says "Eating Jesus Daily" and "who emphasizes this besides the LC" - unless you categorically deny the LC practice of pray-reading as "eating Jesus" I'm going to assume you affirm it. My question was, where is the scriptural basis for this affirmation.

Now, Paul encourages praying in the word, but he doesn't call it "eating Jesus". It is related to denying the principalities and powers.

ZNP alone seems to have tried a defense, using John 6, but does not bring John 4 forward, where Jesus talks of his 'spiritual food' being to do the Father's will. Then in John 6 he says that he does the Father's works, and when the disciples also want to work, he says, "believe". Our "work" is to believe. And clearly relating John 6 back to John 4 is the idea of the Father's will. Jesus was 100% in the Father's will, such that when you saw him, you saw the Father; when he spoke, the Father spoke through him, when he worked, the Father worked through him. Our job is to believe. Nothing in either place of praying scripture. His "food" in chapter 4 becomes ours in chapter 6. We appropriate his works through our faith.

Originally Posted by StG

UntoHim - I've written what this (eating/drinking/calling) experience looks like to me on a daily basis, in a couple posts on this thread (see posts 34 & 84), but nobody has commented yet on these. Did these not address your question or did you not read?

I went back and read these posts, and by your definitions (gathering and singing, studying the word, praying with scripture) I'd say most if not all genuine Christan groups besides the LC do this.

The branch abides in the vine, and it feeds from the vine. The abiding and the feeding are of a part. But in the LC the focus became performance and practice "Eating Jesus is the way!" Again, eating in the manner of John 6, and John 4, and Jeremiah 15:16 is done by all Christians. Whether they do it shabbily or well, and how much that will or won't be held, is the Master's purview. Remember that, "To whom much is given, much is expected," I don't know how much others have been given so I don't place arbitrary expectations.

[Cal]

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Describe your "biblical" experience with pray-reading. Describe your "biblical" experience with calling on the Lord. [/COLOR]

Part 1 -- Pray reading

I came into the church in Houston in 1978, the same time the Max rebellion was blowing up and also as the Sister's rebellion had just been dealt with. Benson very quickly was traveling the country being credited with exposing this and then went to Boston.

The messages I heard were from Ray who was the lead elder in Houston at this time and because of his research into this book which I think was to create a defense for the LC in their legal issues. So the tenor of my learning "pray reading" was what I have shared in these quotes. He shared most of what he wrote with us in little testimonies on a weekly basis, either in a message or at the Lord's table or prayer meeting.

So to me "pray reading" wasn't some practice, it was simply the principle of putting your finger on the word of God and saying "Lord, do as you have said". Obviously the practice in the meeting often felt more superficial than that, but the meetings were to help everyone, and perhaps some of the saints were more superficial and needed to have the pump primed.

In 1979 a brother and I toured 7 churches in the North East and visited Benson. One of these churches had been decimated and the situation was no rancorous the elders couldn't even share messages. Instead they had developed an approach to reading and praying Bible verses, the only thing they all could be one on. This approach involved seven steps, I forget what they were but they involved reading the word, praying the word, declaring it, etc. That would be their meeting and it had brought in a restoration to them.

But then Houston became a wing of LSM and began printing gospel tracts for LSM. This was prior to the announcement of us going to Irving to build the training center. We also knew the full recovery version would be coming soon which was something everyone looked forward to because at that time we had 20 different Recovery versions. It was at this time that Ed began using footnotes as testimonies. So whereas for the last few years we were hearing some great quote from a ministry over the last 2,000 years which was supporting the idea that we were recovering lost truths and were part of a rich heritage of the Christian faith, Ed was imitating that only for him he was discovering some "rich footnote". Seemed harmless enough, 1Cor says "everyone has", and he was bringing something to the table.

But then in 1981 I went to Irving, we worked 7 days a week so my meeting time was limited to the Lord's day at most. From there I went to Odessa which was a home meeting when I went there and was not influenced by any of the deadness, culture or offenses that might have crept in by then. From there I moved to New Hampshire and met with an even smaller home meeting. Then in 1987 I went to the Full Time Training in Taipei and remained in Taipei until 1995. When I returned I stayed at Dunton House in NY. At that time they were pray reading LSM books and messages, something I had never seen before. The church was instructed to pray read these for morning watch. However, the two elder sisters, Michael and I had all been in the church since the 70s and we were not going to pray read anything other than the Bible.

When the LSM contingent visited NY I stood up and shared a testimony concerning Eli and his two sons, they and most of the saints understood the very direct connection between that testimony and WL and his two sons. After that my situation in NY became untenable and I left the church.

So yes, I have seen a very distorted and warped practice that is called "pray reading" and I have also seen the Biblical and historical roots of what many in the LC consider to be "pray reading".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So yes, I have seen a very distorted and warped practice that is called "pray reading" and I have also seen the Biblical and historical roots of what many in the LC consider to be "pray reading".

ZNP, thanks for the bio, which displays the two sides of pray-reading which I talked about -- initially the "teaching" of P-R, and the subsequent "practice" of P-R.

The teaching and the practice have basically nothing in common. The first is private prayer from the heart applying the word of God, the second is public proclamations in meetings from Lee's writings. Spiritually speaking, the difference is day and night. The former is spiritual eating and drinking, the latter is little more than shouting slogans.

Hence the difficulty discussing P-R on this forum. The two are really homonyms -- the same word with two different meanings. It's too bad some cannot understand this.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

But where does it say "pray" it here? How is this even implied? How does one not know that it means "live by"? Like, "I live by the Code of Hamurabi"?

When people see words they assume other words and other meanings, but this is due to ignorance, assumptions, and conditioning away our questions. But when you look at the text, it doesn't say what you think it says.

Whenever it talks of "eating" it doesn't mention prayer, and when it mentions prayer it doesn't talk of "eating". Yet when we were told the connection was there, we didn't test it.

And Jesus really was a man, and really did live by the word. He didn't disobey. His 'food' was to do the will of the Father. It says nothing of pray-reading scripture.

The title of this thread is "Eating Jesus Daily" but I don't see it in scripture. Jesus "lived by every word that proceeded from the Father's mouth", but when he spoke of his [spiritual] food he didn't mention P-R but his living. And in John 6 when they wanted to do "works" he said to believe. This also is the food that endures to eternal life. This is our unique work.

Let me put my argument differently. You quote "every word" here but nobody references John 4:34 on regards to food. So how strong is your position? Does it depend on avoiding 'unhelpful' verses?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, thanks for the bio, which displays the two sides of pray-reading which I talked about -- initially the "teaching" of P-R, and the subsequent "practice" of P-R.

But where does scripture say that this is "eating Jesus"? Paul says to take the word as a sword of the spirit via prayer. Jesus spoke one word and the dark forces fell back: "I am he" (John 18:6). There is no connotation of food there, as the word leaves Jesus' mouth. See also Revelation 19:15.

"Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." (NIV)

Please test your assumptions. You can pray-read without "eating Jesus." For that matter, the Tree of Life is also about obedience. If God says, "Don't touch", we don't touch. Or don't eat, don't look, don't speak, don't go there.

But someone taught, "It's all about eating." Do you really think that P-R is "eating Jesus" and if so, why? Don't give tortured logic. Just point to the scripture.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Describe your "biblical" experience with calling on the Lord.

Every day at school I preached the gospel with three other brothers, we did this for about 2 1/2 years. Could easily have been 500+ times. The routine was always the same, we would sit in one of 5 different cafeterias depending on the day, one brother would kick off the gospel with one or two sentences and then just sit back and watch. I would immediately jump in and share something that I had enjoyed, generally from one of my science classes, within the last 24 hours. It was always something the other brothers had never heard. Probably a little bit of a reaction to what would eventually conclude our gospel. A third brother had a little green NT and as soon as he had a verse that he felt related to what I was sharing he would jump in and I'd yield to him, he would then have the Bible in front of this person and would preach, everything I had shared was like the alleyoop pass (we believed that Jesus was the body of all the shadows). Finally, David Campbell would step in to share from Romans 10 -- "whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" and then pray with this person, asking them to call on the name of the Lord Jesus. To say that I heard him use that verse five times a week is not an exaggeration.

I had no issue with it. I completely embraced the idea of daily salvation as well as once for all salvation. To realize that regardless of what is happening, salvation is always a matter of acknowledging that Jesus is Lord. That was a message that went deep into my soul, a word that I felt Jesus wanted to make sure I got.

As for the "chanting" of "Jesus is Lord" repeatedly in the meeting, I never had a problem with that. Sometimes it did seem childish, like kids holding their hands to their ears and refusing to listen to something. But what is the solution to someone who is childish and doesn't want to listen to the Lord's speaking other than to confess that Jesus is Lord?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

But where does scripture say that this is "eating Jesus"?

Aron, this is getting tiresome. You admit that the term "eating Jesus" is Biblical. You admit that Jesus is the incarnated word. You admit that our job is believe this word and that faith mixed with the word is how we get the Lord's instant speaking. You admit that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".

So then if prayer is a conversation with God that is based on faith, and faith is a result of our hearing God's word, then the evidence of that is our prayer. Prayer is simply hearing God's word and responding in faith.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Aron, this is getting tiresome. You admit that the term "eating Jesus" is Biblical. You admit that Jesus is the incarnated word. You admit that our job is believe this word and that faith mixed with the word is how we get the Lord's instant speaking. You admit that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".

So then if prayer is a conversation with God that is based on faith, and faith is a result of our hearing God's word, then the evidence of that is our prayer. Prayer is simply hearing God's word and responding in faith.

Do you think that P-R is "eating Jesus"? That's what it was sold as in the LC, that's what StG is apparently referencing in his title. Yet there's nothing behind it except a sales job by the self-proclaimed MOTA. I'm just calling it out for what it appears to be, unless someone else can show me where it comes from scripture. It's a sales job just like "God's economy" was.

Unless someone can show me scripture, how can I say that P-R is "eating Jesus"? Or how can you, or anyone? I'd be willing to change my mind. Just show me a verse.

The danger here is that people look at their experiences as if real. "Today I pray-read and I felt good." Okay. But the Catholic goes in and takes communion. And so forth. I just think if you hang your destiny on something and it isn't clearly shown in scripture it's worth considering if it is a side-track. Unless someone can show me a verse...

And why did we unquestioningly accept "eating Jesus" by P-R, and "God's economy" and so forth? Why were our brains so dulled? Hundreds would sit there and listen, then line up at the microphone to give praises to the message. Nobody said, "show me the beef". So what was our "exercise" doing but addling our God-given minds?

"Today I went to a college training meeting." Okay. Someone told you it was the "center lane of the divine economy". But unless you question that assumption, how do you know? How can you let your fate hang on someone else's assurance? Test it to find it in scripture. Or else it has no merit.

[ZNPaaneah]

Fine, eating Jesus is obeying God's word. You can't simply obey the written word, it has to become the spoken word to you. No Bible verse tells you which college to go to, who to marry, what job to take, etc. How do you get that spoken word which you are now empowered to obey, even though it will mean taking up your cross, following Jesus on the narrow way?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Aron, this is getting tiresome.

Amen to that!

I gave up. Apparently Igzy, Raptor, and JoS did too. SonsToGlory and UntoHim also?

Peter said we should be always ready to give an answer to the hope we have, but there's no hope for this discussion.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Do you think that P-R is "eating Jesus"? That's what it was sold as in the LC, that's what StG is apparently referencing in his title. Yet there's nothing behind it except a sales job by the self-proclaimed MOTA. I'm just calling it out for what it appears to be, unless someone else can show me where it comes from scripture. It's a sales job just like "God's economy" was.

Unless someone can show me scripture, how can I say that P-R is "eating Jesus"? Or how can you, or anyone? I'd be willing to change my mind. Just show me a verse.

You evidently missed where I said once or maybe twice that in starting the thread I had no conception of "pray-reading." It was about "eating & drinking Jesus." Others have equated the two, and hence this discussion.

Now, Aron, I think I do see your point - there evidently is no passage that specifically says "pray-reading is eating Jesus." I think, narrowly defined, we have to give that to you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

You evidently missed where I said once or maybe twice that in starting the thread I had no conception of "pray-reading." It was about "eating & drinking Jesus." Others have equated the two, and hence this discussion.

Now, Aron, I think I do see your point - there evidently is no passage that specifically says "pray-reading is eating Jesus." I think, narrowly defined, we have to give that to you.

You say, "others have equated the two", and this includes the LC, whom you cite prominently in the thread title. Ohio and ZNP are apparently getting tired, but Christian readers have not only the right but the responsibility to challenge what's put forth to see if it's really so. How many thousands are currently gathering and telling one another, "Let's eat Jesus" and so forth when the truth may be quite otherwise? How can we in good conscience not question this, and ask what basis it rests on. All things are suspect and things LC trebly so.

I stress that I'm not questioning anyone's spiritual walk or standing. It's probably safe to assume that everyone on this forum is "ahead of me" or "greater than me" in the Kingdom of God. But when something's sold as if it were so, it should be tested, and when something like this is followed by so many as if it were so, and no one can show why it's held to be so except by some confidence-game trickster selling it as such, it's probably worth calling it out.

And I apologize that it took 15 posts to say what could have been done neatly in one or two. But I seem to work in an elliptical fashion, not knowing where I'm going until I get there. But then I get there and remember.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

You evidently missed where I said once or maybe twice that in starting the thread I had no conception of "pray-reading." It was about "eating & drinking Jesus." Others have equated the two, and hence this discussion.

Ah, I see. I think I understand your position a little better. This was the reason I have constantly been using the caveat "as taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee". I have repeatedly used this phrase in order to clarify what I took as "eating and drinking Jesus daily". Many of us older fellows were in the Local Church in the mid-late 1970s, and it is within the context of that time period that I place the zenith of these related teachings and practices. I think aron may be reading and reacting within this context as well. (he can certainly correct me if I'm off base on this)

What you have posted about eating and drinking Jesus IN YOUR PERSONAL DEVOTIONAL TIME is something most protestant Christians have been teaching and practicing since the beginning. They may not have enunciated it as "eating and drinking Jesus", but the basic idea is exactly the same. What I have been speaking of...I think I have made this perfectly clear...is how pray-reading and calling on the Lord IN A CORPORATE SETTING has been taught and practiced in the Local Church.
-

[FranklyM]

I agree with Jo S regarding on how to read John 6:35. It was an one-time deal. However, we still need to be involved in a relationship with Jesus daily.

Is this relationship what you called sanctification Jo S?

Is this what most of us are referring to as eating Jesus?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

And I apologize that it took 15 posts to say what could have been done neatly in one or two. But I seem to work in an elliptical fashion, not knowing where I'm going until I get there. But then I get there and remember.

And the older I get I think more and more about the here-after. Just this morning I went into the garage and said to myself, "Now what in the world am I here after?"

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And the older I get I think more and more about the here-after. Just this morning I went into the garage and said to myself, "Now what in the world am I here after?"

That's funny!

That reminds me of what Lou Holtz said about his life growing up. He said "We didn't have a lot of money, but when we ate we always had plenty. I know because when I'd ask for seconds my dad would say, 'No, you've had plenty!'"

[Sons to Glory!]

So now maybe we can talk about the purpose of eating and drinking Jesus. The reason living things eat is to stay alive and keep everything functioning. If we don't eat physical food, we die before long and if we don't drink, we die sooner. (Brother Lee - yes, he was a brother - also talked about breathing Jesus to live on a moment by moment basis.) Therefore, the purpose of eating and drinking regularly, is to keep the inner man nourished and functioning, right? Our spirit is alive and regenerated by the Spirit of Christ, and needs to be feed in order for us to effectively walk in spirit - or at least this is what I believe.

But, according to my experience, there doesn't seem to be that many groups who emphasize this. If I sometimes hear messages about this general topic on radio or TV, then often the next message I hear from them wanders into a kind of performing the New Testament according to the old covenant, legalistic approach. At best, it's overall a mixed message it seems.

So as a continuation of this thread's topic, how many Christian groups truly advocate and practice a New Covenant acknowledgement of their spirit indwelt by Christ, to be all things to them and to walk in spirit and reality? (and to therefore be nourished for that purpose)

[FranklyM]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So now maybe we can talk about the purpose of eating and drinking Jesus. The reason living things eat is to stay alive and keep everything functioning. If we don't eat physical food, we die before long and if we don't drink, we die sooner. (Brother Lee - yes, he was a brother - also talked about breathing Jesus to live on a moment by moment basis.) Therefore, the purpose of eating and drinking regularly, is to keep the inner man nourished and functioning, right? Our spirit is alive and regenerated by the Spirit of Christ, and needs to be feed in order for us to effectively walk in spirit - or at least this is what I believe.

The reason we cannot find anyone who emphasizes eating Jesus like Witness Lee and LSM is because nobody else emphasizes it, because it shouldn't be emphasized. The bible doesn't emphasize it, why should we?

I think a lot of our misunderstandings are due to our over exploring of the metaphors used in the bible. We take passages that use a certain imagery such as the human body to describe what the church is, and we add more concepts that are based on our knowledge and experience of the human body. However, the added concepts are not in the original text. So my question is, is it OK to add more?

In the case of John 6, Witness Lee tries to bring up the concept of a daily eating of the Lord. But if you read carefully, you will notice that this concept of daily eating isn't present. You will also notice that the Lord only uses the food metaphor because the people insisted on asking for more food. The Lord even called them out on vs 26. It was also the people who brought up the topic of the manna, not the Lord. The Lord then used the manna to CONTRAST Himself with the manna, and when doing so the Lord is using a very specific aspect of food: human food will only satiate you temporarily, because you will get hungry again later. But if you "eat" Jesus, the real bread from heaven, you will never hunger again! We cannot keep adding other attributes of food such as "The reason living things eat is to stay alive and keep everything functioning. If we don't eat physical food, we die before long and if we don't drink, we die sooner." Just because the Bible uses one aspect of food it does not give us the freedom to continue to add more food attributes to the passage.

At the end, it is clear that the Lord Jesus used the food example to say that if you BELIEVED in Him (ate Him) you would have ETERNAL LIFE (never hunger or thirst again). Read John chapter 6 again without trying to make it about the Lord as our daily portion and you will see.

57 "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
58 "This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

In conclusion, we will most likely not find other groups that emphasize eating Jesus daily; and that is a good thing! That doesn't go to say that there isn't another step of our Christian life, an aspect that is done daily.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by FranklyM

The reason we cannot find anyone who emphasizes eating Jesus like Witness Lee and LSM is because nobody else emphasizes it, because it shouldn't be emphasized. The bible doesn't emphasize it, why should we?

I think a lot of our misunderstandings are due to our over exploring of the metaphors used in the bible. We take passages that use a certain imagery such as the human body to describe what the church is, and we add more concepts that are based on our knowledge and experience of the human body. However, the added concepts are not in the original text. So my question is, is it OK to add more?

In the case of John 6, Witness Lee tries to bring up the concept of a daily eating of the Lord. But if you read carefully, you will notice that this concept of daily eating isn't present. You will also notice that the Lord only uses the food metaphor because the people insisted on asking for more food. The Lord even called them out on vs 26. It was also the people who brought up the topic of the manna, not the Lord. The Lord then used the manna to CONTRAST Himself with the manna, and when doing so the Lord is using a very specific aspect of food: human food will only satiate you temporarily, because you will get hungry again later. But if you "eat" Jesus, the real bread from heaven, you will never hunger again! We cannot keep adding other attributes of food such as "The reason living things eat is to stay alive and keep everything functioning. If we don't eat physical food, we die before long and if we don't drink, we die sooner." Just because the Bible uses one aspect of food it does not give us the freedom to continue to add more food attributes to the passage.

At the end, it is clear that the Lord Jesus used the food example to say that if you BELIEVED in Him (ate Him) you would have ETERNAL LIFE (never hunger or thirst again). Read John chapter 6 again without trying to make it about the Lord as our daily portion and you will see.

57 "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
58 "This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

In conclusion, we will most likely not find other groups that emphasize eating Jesus daily; and that is a good thing! That doesn't go to say that there isn't another step of our Christian life, an aspect that is done daily.

Great points here FranklyM!

I appreciate the way you "cut straight" the word of God.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me emphasize your point about metaphors coming at it from another direction. After the LC, we met with one church, which constantly emphasized our "giving." The comment was made that like 70% of the gospel related to money. I said what? The Gospel is about money? If money is used to illustrate our sin debt to the law of God, (e.g.Luke 7.40-48) are we then talking about giving or forgiveness? Just another example of "over-exploring metaphors."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by FranklyM

The reason we cannot find anyone who emphasizes eating Jesus like Witness Lee and LSM is because nobody else emphasizes it, because it shouldn't be emphasized. The bible doesn't emphasize it, why should we?

I hope you don't mind if I respectfully disagree. I would sum up the entire NT teaching concerning the Christian life in two things: Baptism and the Lord's Table.

Setting the mind on the Spirit -- that is being immersed into the Triune God.

The work and Person of Jesus -- that is being immersed into the Triune God.

Preaching the Gospel, Separated from the World, Overcoming the Enemy, a people consecrated to the Lord, -- all of these can be seen in our baptism.

The new creation -- also seen in our baptism.

Likewise -- This mystery is great but I speak with regards to Christ and the church -- Lord's table can certainly be viewed as a prelude to the marriage feast.

Worship of the Lord, Remembrance of the Lord, Testifying of the Lord, -- all these can be seen in the Lord's table celebration.

There are only two sacraments that the Lord has told us to keep: Baptism and the Lord's table. Can't emphasize it anymore than that. And it was the Lord who said "this is my Body, this is my blood, take eat". This is what John the Baptist meant when he said "behold the lamb of God" -- Jesus was to be sacrificed for us as a sin offering, peace offering, burnt offering, etc. The gospels begin with this and end with the fulfillment of this.

The epistles simply expound on what has happened.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Raptor

StG... The thought of the importance of eating spiritually is highlighted in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord presented Himself as food and drink to us over and over again. I think it's a great mercy to see that and to learn how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord... daily! Once you see this AND have the experience you realize it's crucial for our growth and strength. Like other practices, though, it's important not to allow this to become something mechanical and impersonal. It is not a "thing", but we are dealing with a Person and enjoying Him...(And I agree, I don´t think there are many places that teach this or practice this on a daily basis.)

Right on the Mark. Thank you Raptor. This is major for believers unto the building up of the Body of Christ. Thank you Sons to Glory! To eat him is to live by Him... and be led by Him, "leading many sons into glory".

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Raptor

StG... The thought of the importance of eating spiritually is highlighted in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord presented Himself as food and drink to us over and over again. I think it's a great mercy to see that and to learn how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord... daily! Once you see this AND have the experience you realize it's crucial for our growth and strength. Like other practices, though, it's important not to allow this to become something mechanical and impersonal. It is not a "thing", but we are dealing with a Person and enjoying Him...(And I agree, I don´t think there are many places that teach this or practice this on a daily basis.)

I have not seen this practiced anywhere else, like in the LC.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.
But I have to say that the LC is one of the few places that I've heard about this (except here in Scottsdale) over the years. Different ones certainly mention the significance of the Lord's Table, but I don't know I've heard eating and drinking related much to my daily walk with Christ - that is, to eat Him on a daily basis that I might live by Him.

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think it's a great mercy to see that and to learn how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord... daily! (And I agree, I don´t think there are many places that teach this or practice this on a daily basis.)

I think may of us are still waiting to hear about the "this" that our friend Sons to Glory! is speaking of. And we're still waiting to get the details about what Raptor means by "teach this" or "practice this". When pressed for details, Sons to Glory! describes what protestant Christians have teaching and practicing for 2,000 plus years. Nothing different.

StoG, just this past Sunday morning, at the fellowship I attend, I believe that the 800+ brothers and sisters experienced "something of the Spirit that actually nourished our spirit deep within". And you know how this happened? By the speaking of the Word, and by singing and praying aloud! Sound familiar? It should because this is exactly what you have described. And I'll tell you what, I have seen and experienced this at many different churches and ministries over the past 20+ years.

So again, I am simply asking you brothers to come down from the heavens and get practical with us. Tell us exactly what you mean by "eating and drinking" and "learning how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord". Since you keep telling us that you don't see anywhere else where this is taught and practiced except in the Local Church (and Scottsdale I guess), it must be something above and beyond what you have thus far stated. So let's hear it!
-

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]I think may of us are still waiting to hear about the "this" that our friend Sons to Glory! is speaking of. And we're still waiting to get the details about what Raptor means by "teach this" or "practice this". When pressed for details, Sons to Glory! describes what protestant Christians have teaching and practicing for 2,000 plus years. Nothing different.

Witness Lee's skill was in marketing. Repackaging fundamental truths in a way that tells the story that is catchy and creative while also being simple and consistent. Churches have kept the Lord's table for 2,000 years, but "eating Jesus is the way" repackages that truth and makes it fun to open that package.

Also, he knew who his target market was -- disaffected youth who were familiar with the Bible in a superficial way. Imagine, 20, 30 years later still thinking there was something "new" and "unique" in the "eating Jesus is the way" message.

The saints I meet with emphasize "praise and worship". Just as enjoyable, a little more reverential.

[Cal]

Anyone who is experiencing the Lord in any kind of spiritual way is eating and drinking. Eating and drinking are not separate from any other inward spiritual experience. It's all part of the same thing. It's all just different ways to describe all that God is to us. He is all in all. It's impossible to experience him in any way and still feel empty or dry. It's impossible to experience him and not eat and drink.

So in fact, any group that talks about relationship with God is talking about eating and drinking.

Here's a way of looking at it. My experience of my family is a kind of food to me. I love being with them and having fun with them. It feeds me in a way. But I don't call it "eating and drinking." I call it being with my family. But it's still a kind of eating and drinking. So also with God. You don't have to call it eating and drinking to have the reality of those things.

Ironically, those in the LR don't actually eat and drink enough. If they did, they'd be more interested in the reality rather than being top dog and having the best jargon. Jesus rebuked those who cared more for getting the details right than having the reality (Matt 23:23).

Some who have left the LR still need to learn this.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Here's a way of looking at it. My experience of my family is a kind of food to me. I love being with them and having fun with them. It feeds me in a way. But I don't call it "eating and drinking." I call it being with my family. But it's still a kind of eating and drinking. So also with God. You don't have to call it eating and drinking for it to have the reality of those things.

I grew weary of the unending back and forth on this thread, but I can surely agree with this!

[Cal]

Don't get hung up on specifics. You'll miss out on seeing the whole thing.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LO..._zXwY5jJOUAytu

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don't get hung up on specifics. You'll miss out on seeing the whole thing.

You quoted "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." (post #107) I think the 'every word' part was meant literally by Jesus - he didn't have a shifting section of "fallen concepts" that he relegated whatever scriptures he wanted to ignore that day. Witness Lee, however, made that mistake. Let's not follow him.

One of the biggest problems I see in exegesis is misapplication. Words that were fulfilled by Messiah Yeshua (aka 'Jesus') were mistakenly said to be of the "NT believers enjoying grace", to use the RecV footnote verbiage. But rather, I contend that Jesus is the proverbial "man" who "lives by ... every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". Not you or I or Preacher Bob down the street. Jesus lived by every.. single.. word. His 'eating' was obedience. He literally "lived by" the word of God. Every word. That was his 'food' - he made that explicit in John 4:34.

Now, our 'food' was to believe into him. He's the Chosen One. He fulfilled the prophetic word. We believe this. To me, it's pretty simple, and one can easily "see the whole thing", to use your term. The ''specifics'' that StG put in his thread title: "Eating and Drinking Jesus Daily [as] emphasized by the LC" are unsubstantiated by scripture.

[aron]

A Righteous Man living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Psalm 23, by David the King.

1 The Lord [the Father] is my shepherd, I [the Christ] lack nothing.
2 [The Father] makes me [Christ] lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 [The Father] refreshes my soul.
He guides me [the Christ] along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I [Jesus Christ the Lord] walk [as a man on earth]
through the darkest valley,
I [Jesus Christ] will fear no evil,
for you [my Father who art in heaven] are with me [Christ];
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

5 You [Father God] prepare a table before me [Christ the Son]
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil [Jesus is 'Christos', the Anointed King/Priest];
my cup overflows.
6 Surely your goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I [Jesus Christ] will dwell in the house of the Lord
forever.

Jesus taught, "In my Father's house are many abodes [rooms/mansions/pavilions]; I go to prepare a place for you". If we see Jesus as the Obedient Lamb of God fulfilling the promises of God in the prophetic utterances of the holy men of old, we now have the "rich entrance" laid before us. Our faith in this scriptural 'fact' becomes our 'food' to sustain us for the journey. We see the Lamb, by faith, and live, and he becomes our Shepherd. But we must keep our eyes on him. Not on ourselves!

The Protestant and post-protestant world invites the believers to mistakenly think it's about them. Somehow they, in their experiences, are fulfilling God's plan. Listen to the modern Christian song - typically all about the believer. Not about Jesus Christ. But I daresay that the "I" of scripture is Christ. The modern hymn-writer (and singer) sings about "you" (Jesus) and "me" (the believer) but they have mistakenly transposed themselves and their focus. Their faith, and attention, have become misplaced. The relationship of the Son on Earth with the Father in Heaven, the invitation ingrained in Psalm 23 and elsewhere, which should dominate our consciousness, is nearly ignored.

The rest of us do occasionally fulfill God's mandate, but occasionally we don't! One moment the Lord Jesus can say that we're channeling the Father's revelation (Matt 16:17), and next minute we're channeling Satan (Matt 16:23). So don't trust your experiences, however 'enjoyable' and 'real' they seem at present. Only the experiences of Jesus have passed fully through the fire, and the veil. Let his food (doing the Father's will) be your food (your faith). That is the 'sure peg' that we can hang our soul upon (Isa 22:23).

A little gospel lesson: if you drive cross the country, and help little old ladies cross streets and pull people out of ditches and rescue cats from trees, and somewhere outside Enid OK you lose your temper and kill a man, when you get to California the Judge won't want to talk about all the "enjoyment" you had along the way. He'll call you a Murderer. So don't trust your experiences. The Righteous Judge knows all. Place your attention, your focus, your hope on the One who is the Spotless Lamb of God. Only his journey is true.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don't get hung up on specifics. You'll miss out on seeing the whole thing.

Keeping your clips "short, quick, living, and to the point."

Flying saucers. Don't want to miss them.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So again, I am simply asking you brothers to come down from the heavens and get practical with us. Tell us exactly what you mean by "eating and drinking" and "learning how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord". Since you keep telling us that you don't see anywhere else where this is taught and practiced except in the Local Church (and Scottsdale I guess), it must be something above and beyond what you have thus far stated. So let's hear it!

Not sure what else I could say other than what I've previously conveyed of my practical, ongoing experience, a few times on here already (and cited these specific posts too) right?

And you , and others are right - it's not anything really different than what many are experiencing. That is, enjoying Jesus is the same as being nourished in Spirit. (right?) Hopefully as we are all pursuing Him we find ways daily to seek Him, be nourished and walk in spirit (all pretty much the same thing, right?). So in that respect all may be practicing the eating and the drinking . . . but are just not using that same terminology (perhaps). (and they may not realize they are "eating" Christ . . .)

FranklyM, in a walk I took this morning and while speaking to the Lord, these verses came to me (this is from memory, so no citations):

"He prepares a table before me in the presence of my enemies."

"I am the true bread that comes down from heaven that a man may eat and live." "He that is eating of Me shall live because of Me."

"Give us this day our daily bread."

"Do this in remembrance of Me."

"Be diligent to enter that rest."

My comments on above verses:
He spreads a table for us to eat in front of our enemies. Do our enemies then go away forever when we've eaten once? No. Neither does He stop spreading the table for us to eat.

No example/principle of eating I've seen is ever once for all. John 6:57 has been mentioned on here before - "He that eats Me shall live because of Me" - "eats" is well translated as "feeds" or "is eating." Look it up. It is not a singular, one time event.

How is "Give us this day our daily bread" a one time thing? And how do we "Do this in remembrance of Me" - just once? The idea is to keep on remembering and we do that by eating over and over and over.

Lastly, as per Hebrews 4:11, how is being "diligent to enter that rest" a one time thing? It is not - it is continual. Yes, He did it all, and spread a table before us. We are to come to Him and eat. And eat. And eat. When we remember, we eat again. We get busy with stuff, then eat again. We are to be diligent to enter all that He has already done: His one-time sacrifice and gift of righteousness AND His continually indwelling Spirit, which encourages us and nourishes us daily (if we eat of Him).

Hope that's a help Jo/Frankly, et. al.!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

brother Raptor... I was really hoping that you would put those deadly talons to work and dig up some strong biblical and historical evidence to support the Local Church practices of pray-reading and calling on the Lord.-

I don't think you understood my post, Ohio did understand and answered well. I do believe pray-reading is a scriptural practice. No, I was not supporting (neither debunking) the Local Church practices of pray-reading and I never mentioned calling on the Lord either, where did you get these things? What I am saying is: don´t throw out the healthy, scriptural practice of pray-reading because you think or experienced that the practice of pray-reading in the Recovery is bad. Since some in this thread want to strictly separate pray-reading from eating and drinking Jesus, and so as not to crowd ZNPaaneahs thread on the book, “Lord Thou Saidst” I started a new thread, “Pray-reading is scriptural” .

[countmeworthy]

I want to add to Aron's post on Psalm 23.

I also often 'pray read' psalm 23:

Lord. YOU are my Shephard. Thus I will not lack. etc.. I thank You that in the presence of my enemies (fear, depression, loneliness etc) You prepare a table before me... etc.. Surely Your Goodness, Your Mercy follow me all the days of my life.. Thank You Father God.

vs 5 also says ' my cup overfloweth' .. As I see it, my cup is my spirit. As I fill my spirit with God's Word, God's Love, God's Mercy, God's Goodness etc, His Word over flows into my soul thus transforming my stinking thinking and renewing my mind.

Our communion with God through prayer, meditating on His Word, studying the scriptures is 'eating and drinking' Jesus.

Jesus did say in John 6:35
“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. I also speak these scriptures into me.

In 1975/76 when the LC was still alive and filled with the Presence of God at least in San Diego, we 'enjoyed' eating and drinking Jesus. The singing, the pray reading solidified our walk with the Lord imho. BUT in San Diego, we were taught to repent and to apply the Blood of Jesus as well.

We cannot willfully sin and 'enjoy eating and drinking Jesus'. If we were taught that in the LC, that is totally unscriptural. The Holy Spirit convicts us but when we realize our wrong doing, our sin, and repent with a pure and sincere heart, cleansing ourselves in the Precious Blood of the Lamb, He restores our 'enjoyment' of the Lord.

Another thing I know first hand is the more we apply the Blood of Jesus, God's Holy Spirit indeed prevents us from sinning. His Blood also protects us from bad things happening to us. I know this to be a fact. And I have experienced the Blood of Jesus protecting me time and time again.

It is mind boggling to read there was a very dark side to Watchman Nee. I got a lot out of some of his teachings but not until I was wayyy more mature in Christ. As for Lee, aside from reading the life studies, I never understood his 'allure'. I truly appreciated the spiritual guidance I received from my elders in San Diego as many of you know.

Again Blessings, God's Wisdom and Revelation to all.

[JJ]

I’ve enjoyed seeing a spirited discussion on this thread. Good to see some balance on eating and drinking.

No eating and drinking is not emphasized much in the community church circles I’ve been in since 2000. But, neither is it devoid. Pastor exclaimed “taste and see that the Lord is good!” in a sermon two weeks ago. The Bible has many verses regarding eating and drinking Jesus, so we shouldn’t be shy about that. TLR mindlessness is the issue. Community churches could stand to hear more on this topic.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by FranklyM

,.... the bible doesn't emphasize it, why should we?

The Bible does emphasize the importance of eating and drinking Christ. Just in the Old Testament:

The most important item in the Garden of Eden after God created man was the tree of life, this is the center of His plan, eating of this tree would cause man to live forever, Gen. 3:22...."take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”. This eating is receiving God as eternal life which is in His Son, Christ.

The most important item for the children of Israel when they fled Egypt was the Passover lamb which they had to slay, apply the blood, and eat to be saved from death and to escape the world. Exo. 12:5-8, "...the houses in which they eat the lambs. They are to eat the meat that night.." This eating is receiving God as eternal life which is in His Son, Christ.

The most important item for the children of Israel to survive in the wilderness from day to day was to eat the manna and drink the water every day. Exo. 16:15 "...“It is the bread that the LORD has given you to eat". v. 32, "Keep an omer of manna for the generations to come, so that they may see the bread I fed you in the wilderness v. 35 "The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they .... reached the border of Canaan." Exo. 17:6 "...when you strike the rock, water will come out of it for the people to drink.” This eating and drinking is receiving God as eternal life which is in His Son, Christ.

Joshua 5:12 And the day after they had eaten from the produce of the land, the manna ceased. There was no more manna for the Israelites, so that year they began to eat the crops of the land of Canaan, flowing with milk and honey. In Deut. 8 the land is full fountains, springs, wheat, barley, vines, figs, pomegranates, olive oil, honey. This eating and drinking is receiving God as eternal life which is in His Son, Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

I’ve enjoyed seeing a spirited discussion on this thread. Good to see some balance on eating and drinking.

No eating and drinking is not emphasized much in the community church circles I’ve been in since 2000. But, neither is it devoid. Pastor exclaimed “taste and see that the Lord is good!” in a sermon two weeks ago. The Bible has many verses regarding eating and drinking Jesus, so we shouldn’t be shy about that. TLR mindlessness is the issue. Community churches could stand to hear more on this topic.

Thanks for conveying that observation!

My contention is the same - that more eating & drinking of Christ should be preached and practiced among Christians. AND also that TLR got off into the weeds with the whole mindless chanting thing.

And pursuant to Raptor's last post, how much eating & feasting is in the Bible!? It starts with the trees in the garden of Eden, and ends with a marriage feast and an exhortation to come and drink the water of life freely - what a big dance party that will be!! (Christ said He would drink of the fruit of the vine when He returns!)

God created our bodies needing constant food and drink. He didn't do that on accident or as some sort of meaningless gesture - it's a picture for us of the spiritual realm.

[Bubbles!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

(I searched but didn't come up with any threads on here about eating and drinking Jesus, so I thought to start one.)

This was a big theme with the LC back in the day. There are plenty of instances in the word that talk about eating and drinking the Lord, perhaps most famously where Jesus Himself said in John 6:53, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." When He spoke it, it says many were offended and left, and I can certainly see why! Many, many other places talk about eating and/or drinking. The Lord's Table is another famous example and Paul talks about drinking the One Spirit. There's much more in the word about this, of course.

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

But I have to say that the LC is one of the few places that I've heard about this (except here in Scottsdale) over the years. Different ones certainly mention the significance of the Lord's Table, but I don't know I've heard eating and drinking related much to my daily walk with Christ - that is, to eat Him on a daily basis that I might live by Him.

Now in reading certain authors (T. Austin Sparks comes to mind, Andrew Murray and maybe Piper) they certainly speak regarding this matter of eating to be strengthened into the inner man and to live Christ daily. But I've been to a few places and have been exposed to a fair amount of Christian radio and TV, and I can't remember when I've heard this specific teaching.

Any-a-ways - I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss.

In these days, I think it's very hard to find any practice in line with the Scripture, in regard to eating, drinking and breathing Christ. I think you'd have to go back a ways to find something even close. I bet you could come up with something from some earlier Christian mystics.

[Bubbles!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hmm, boy I'm glad I only have to eat just once to sustain my physical life! Oh wait, no I dont and no I'm not glad - because I like to eat, and I get to do it a number of times today! If I didn't eat frequently, my energy would suffer greatly (except the energy to find something to eat).

And why do we do the Lord's Table more than once?

And what about drinking - we have to do that even more often . . . is there perhaps a picture there? What I think you're saying sounds a little like the idea that "I've got my ticket punched, now I don't need anything until I go to heaven," doesn't it?

"As the dear panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God." Psalm 42:1

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but, I can tell that the ''mysticism bugaboo'' is certainly part of it!
You can go too far with any kind of emphasis in doctrine or practice. A.W. Tozer suggested a healthy balance of the mystics and the Puritans in our reading. I go by that.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

In these days, I think it's very hard to find any practice in line with the Scripture, in regard to eating, drinking and breathing Christ. I think you'd have to go back a ways to find something even close. I bet you could come up with something from some earlier Christian mystics.

Here’s an old book on this topic I found out about a while back
https://www.monergism.com/glorious-feast-gospel-ebook

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

In these days, I think it's very hard to find any practice in line with the Scripture, in regard to eating, drinking and breathing Christ. I think you'd have to go back a ways to find something even close. I bet you could come up with something from some earlier Christian mystics.

Oh no - don't bring up the hot topic of CHRISTIAN MYSTICS! Some get riled-up concerning that subject; personally I think it's kinda fun! (sorry UntoHim)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but, I can tell that the ''mysticism bugaboo'' is certainly part of it!
You can go too far with any kind of emphasis in doctrine or practice. A.W. Tozer suggested a healthy balance of the mystics and the Puritans in our reading. I go by that.

Anything, and I mean anything, can be taken too far!

The watchword is, as you said, is "healthy balance."

I'm a firm believer that reading thru the Bible provides much needed healthy balance.

Many Christians frankly spend far too much time reading books, rather than God's word, and this is often the #1 reason for unbalance. Writing our own books, whether published or not, can be far healthier for us than merely reading other's books.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anything, and I mean anything, can be taken too far!

The watchword is, as you said, is "healthy balance."

I'm a firm believer that reading thru the Bible provides much needed healthy balance.

Many Christians frankly spend far too much time reading books, rather than God's word, and this is often the #1 reason for unbalance. Writing our own books, whether published or not, can be far healthier for us than merely reading other's books.

There are two main things to balance IMHO: 1) The pure word 2) The Anointing. With only the written word, there may be no revelation and everything gets legalistic. And without the balancing word, everything can get all experiential based, and drift into who-knows-what kind of practices.

We have been given both and need both - the indwelling Spirit within and the written word without. And I would also add fellowship - we were made as a called-out gathering (ekklesia) which we are told not to forsake, and for good reason.

And you're right, reading spiritual authors constantly, with little focus on the pure word, is also a BIG trap!

[Raptor]

So I believe there is an emphasis on eating and drinking Jesus in the Bible, but I have realized the following: yes, E&DJ is very important, BUT if other basic things are not emphasized also, then an imbalance occurs. So it´s not that E&DJ should not be emphasized, but rather that the other side of the balance could be empty, so the balance tilts too much on the E&DJ side.

What other matters? I feel a great lack in the Recovery was concerning the teaching, admonishing and practice of some of the rudiments, the fundamental things in the Bible and our relationship with God. For example, learning to fear and respect God, admiring God as the Creator and also appreciating His creation, learning to really worship Him, knowing, contacting, praying to and worshipping the Father (not just 10 minutes on Sunday), obeying God, repenting, obeying the New Testament commandments, loving one another, loving your neighbor.

If these things are not learned and emphasized in your christian walk, if we are not open to these things and practice them, there is a big risk that E&DJ won't really do any good, but rather give you a false notion that you are progressing in the faith.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Raptor

So I believe there is an emphasis on eating and drinking Jesus in the Bible, but I have realized the following: yes, E&DJ is very important, BUT if other basic things are not emphasized also, then an imbalance occurs.

I say that the essential NT requirements for salvation, or "the basic things which should be emphasized", are:

1. Believe into Jesus. Self-explanatory. I could cite the verses but you [should] know them.

2. Deny the self. "Take up the cross and follow me" and such verbiage. If you continue to indulge your sinful and fallen flesh, and likewise your soulish comforts, you're probably no better than an ubeliever (imho). Maybe even worse - "and the last state of the man was worse than the first".

3. Reach beyond yourself and express in some practical way the same love for your neighbour that you have for yourself, and that God had for you in sending His Son. If you have a sandwich and your neighbour's hungry, - voom - 1/2 the sandwich travels to your neighbour's hand. A cup of water, a shirt, a ride to town...we all know that to "work the works of God" is to believe into the Christ whom God has sent per John 6:28,29.... now, if you 'believe' but continue to act in a self-centered manner, I wonder then what you believe? If you truly believe, then you'll obey the commands, "Feed my sheep"... maybe that meant, a real sandwich to a real hungry person, not just selling them LSM materiel? Worth asking, here.

Beyond that, I don't see much. Yes, study scriptures and show yourself approved, and yes gather together with the faithful, etc. But I see the first 3 as essentials. The rest is not 'crucial' as WL and other ministers tried to sell you.

Let me trot out Dorcas (Tabitha) for example. She clearly met Conditions 1, 2, and 3. Whether she pray-read or sing-read or PSRP'd or whatever else isn't known. Not important, really. She believed, and loved others enough to get out of herself. The weeping widows holding up her hand-made shirts testified of her status as a disciple of Jesus Christ (Acts 9:36-41). If the "other stuff" gets emphasized alongside this, then it's a distraction at best and a stumbling at worst.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

I say that the essential NT requirements for salvation, or "the basic things which should be emphasized", are:

1. Believe into Jesus. Self-explanatory. I could cite the verses but you [should] know them.

2. Deny the self. "Take up the cross and follow me" and such verbiage. If you continue to indulge your sinful and fallen flesh, and likewise your soulish comforts, you're probably no better than an ubeliever (imho). Maybe even worse - "and the last state of the man was worse than the first".

3. Reach beyond yourself and express in some practical way the same love for your neighbour that you have for yourself, and that God had for you in sending His Son. If you have a sandwich and your neighbour's hungry, - voom - 1/2 the sandwich travels to your neighbour's hand. A cup of water, a shirt, a ride to town...we all know that to "work the works of God" is to believe into the Christ whom God has sent per John 6:28,29.... now, if you 'believe' but continue to act in a self-centered manner, I wonder then what you believe? If you truly believe, then you'll obey the commands, "Feed my sheep"... maybe that meant, a real sandwich to a real hungry person, not just selling them LSM materiel? Worth asking, here.

Beyond that, I don't see much. Yes, study scriptures and show yourself approved, and yes gather together with the faithful, etc. But I see the first 3 as essentials. The rest is not 'crucial' as WL and other ministers tried to sell you.

Let me trot out Dorcas (Tabitha) for example. She clearly met Conditions 1, 2, and 3. Whether she pray-read or sing-read or PSRP'd or whatever else isn't known. Not important, really. She believed, and loved others enough to get out of herself. The weeping widows holding up her hand-made shirts testified of her status as a disciple of Jesus Christ (Acts 9:36-41). If the "other stuff" gets emphasized alongside this, then it's a distraction at best and a stumbling at worst.

Yes, the more I go on the more I realize that it's the simplicity in Christ - if things get a little complicated, then it's not Jesus.

And even #2 and #3, I believe, is not something we can do ourselves. We can't even have a knowledge of God or love Him of ourselves, so trying to do anything apart from Him is, in reality, folly. But in seeking Him, we have to let go of what is currently in our hands, otherwise our hands are full and we can't lay hold of Him. So dropping whatever is in our hands is automatic if we are laying hold of Him, don't you think?

We've had some back-n-forth discussion among brothers I'm with, about this very thing. Some think they need to drop the "whatever" first, before they can turn to Him. Others think that we just concern ourselves with diligently seeking Him ("just as I am"), and all else happens automatically. Whichever you practice, it's whatever form you've been delivered into . . . (personally, I believe it's the simple pursuit of Christ first, and all else follows, as His Spirit illuminates, guides and enlivens me, and causes me to love)

[Bubbles!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Oh no - don't bring up the hot topic of CHRISTIAN MYSTICS! Some get riled-up concerning that subject; personally I think it's kinda fun! (sorry UntoHim)

On Christian TV, I sometimes come across two guys who go strictly according to Herman. ( Mr. Nuetics, that is ) They're supposed to be ''preaching the gospel'' but, all they do is tell everyone how sinful they are. They don't invite them to receive the Lord. I guess that they leave that up to predestination, like a lot of extreme Calvinists do.

[Bubbles!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is important to me is making sense of this. In many cases they veered off from the truth. Why?

The practice described in "Lord Thou Saidst" compiled by Ray Graver and published by LSM in 1981 is undeniably Biblical and certainly taught and practiced in church history. That was the point of the book at a time when the lawsuits were accusing the Recovery of "chanting", etc.

However, that book does not resemble the practice that is described by people currently meeting with the LC, why? The book is no longer listed on LSM's website, why?

I think this exposes the "have my cake and eat it too" mentality. If the saints read that book "pray reading" is no longer the great discovery of WL, also the practice the saints have will appear a very poor imitation or knock off of the real thing. And yet they want to be accepted as part of fundamental Christianity and WL is no longer alive. As a result I conclude that the value of "LC pray reading" to require saints to purchase LSM published materials outweighs any reasons they would have for the saints to read that book.

I think this is evidence for those who saw a distinct change in the nature of the LC before 1980 and after 1980. In that book Ray gives a personal testimony about how he was very moved with the verse in Acts when the leaders realized the disciples "had been with Jesus". He had been with Jesus, they are attacking the church for bringing in far eastern practices of pray reading and calling on the Lord. He is running to the defense, innocently and naively. But by the time his book is published LSM is building a training center in Irving, he is the foreman, he is running a wing of the publishing business, and the elders in Anaheim are being pushed out opening the door for Benson and Ray to take over. From that point selling books for LSM outweighs the narrow way that leads to life.

This book itemizes quotes from 56 bible teachers other than WL. Anyone who reads this book will immediately discover an entire world of ministers of the pure word outside of LSM, outside of WL and the blendeds. That to me is why this book had to be ditched.

A few years ago, I came across something in regard to ministries becoming a stumbling block, after they acquire a large publishing house, bringing in lots of money. I don't remember who the author was. I do remember when WLs publishing office was in his tiny apartment. It didn't stay there.

[Bubbles!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anything, and I mean anything, can be taken too far!

The watchword is, as you said, is "healthy balance."

I'm a firm believer that reading thru the Bible provides much needed healthy balance.

Many Christians frankly spend far too much time reading books, rather than God's word, and this is often the #1 reason for unbalance. Writing our own books, whether published or not, can be far healthier for us than merely reading other's books.

Unfortunately, most of us are not gifted enough to be writing our own books. In fact, most of us are not gifted enough to receive ''high revelation,'' or even correct interpretation, every time we read the Bible for ourselves. Most of us need some help from experienced teachers. We have to trust our own Spirit to detect any errors. Or, we may just see differently than the teacher we are reading at the time. A good healthy balance of listening to trusted teachers, and reading just the pure Word, is needed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

Unfortunately, most of us are not gifted enough to be writing our own books. In fact, most of us are not gifted enough to receive ''high revelation,'' or even correct interpretation, every time we read the Bible for ourselves. Most of us need some help from experienced teachers. We have to trust our own Spirit to detect any errors. Or, we may just see differently than the teacher we are reading at the time. A good healthy balance of listening to trusted teachers, and reading just the pure Word, is needed.

I never said to publish the book!

My point, perhaps not that clear, is that writing from scripture is extremely valuable. It's like teaching. Once you go thru the preparation required to teach, you really know the material.

For example. We had a topic on "outer darkness." What does it mean? Who is it for? You can read a dozen books and get 2 dozen answers. Why not write your own book? Forget about publishing anything. Get all the pertinent verses. Study them, compare them, try to put them together like a puzzle. Let the verses expand your mind. Struggle with them in prayer. Write them down. Put them into outlines and paragraphs.

I believe this type of "study to show thyself approved" (II Tim 2.15) is far more valuable than just reading books.

We who spent years in the Recovery under the "experienced teachers" learned much wrongly. Yes God "has given teachers" (Eph 4.11) but most Christians I have known for 40 years, did not get their teachings directly from the Bible, but second hand from someone else. That in itself explains much of our problem.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why not write your own book? Forget about publishing anything. Get all the pertinent verses. Study them, compare them, try to put them together like a puzzle. Let the verses expand your mind. Struggle with them in prayer. Write them down. Put them into outlines and paragraphs.

I believe this type of "study to show thyself approved" (II Tim 2.15) is far more valuable than just reading books.

Yes & amen! I am blessed to be with bros who practice this!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is an example of what faulty hermeneutics do.. it allows for subjective interpretation of the text and as a result of that, conclusions that are out of line with the actually context of what's being spoken.

Here's what I see; in the LC's you are taught strong emphasis on the spiritual experience but sorely lack proper biblical interpretative skills. Because of what I see as Nee's and Lee's spiritual pride and prejudices toward the rest of Christendom, they also rejected the more scholarly approach to understanding scripture which the majority of mainstream Christianity adheres to called exegesis. As such, they adopted the more subjective method of interpreting scripture, eisegesis.

I understand that many Christians focus too much on study rather than experience, but the typical LC member focuses too heavily on experience. Having too strong of an emphasis on the spiritual can and will lead to false spirituality, aka mysticism. Being properly grounded in scripture with a more disciplined approach to studying the text helps prevent that from happening. However, going to either extreme means missing the mark. One side eventually becomes like an Ephesus (forgetting the joy they once had in Christ) and the other a Laodicea (claiming they have all the spiritual riches yet remain spiritually blind to the Holy Spirit).

I'm by no means a scholar but I would recommend you guys do exactly what member byHismercy is actively trying to do while studying scriptures; forget everything you were taught in the LC's and start with a fresh new outlook viewing the text through an exegetical lens. I too used to be "experience heavy" early on in my walk. Studying basic hermeneutics has helped me tremendously in approaching scripture properly.

Psalm 53:4 “Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.” (KJV)

Here we see "eating people as they eat bread". This doesn't reference cannibalism that I can see but "eating" rather as a metaphor for unrighteously acquisitive behaviour. Actually, any behaviour can be "eating". Yes, including prayer, and including reading the word, and including calling on God, as the verse concludes. But to presume that "eating Jesus" is some particular kind of repetitive verbal exercise is unwarranted, for two reasons. First, the participant becomes open to suggestive spirits, not all of whom have God's will close at hand. The participant then may become led by all sorts of misleading winds. I look back at the LC, at the constant "exercise your spirit" stress and the subsequent craziness that was not only tolerated but promoted, and I suspect they were linked. Forced mindlessness allowed absorbing, or "eating" stuff that was not from God. Instead of "test all things" it became "get out of your mind", and Pray-reading was one of the primary ways to get out of your discerning mind.

Second, the "eating" in scriptures is allied with some kind of continual habit or activity. In the case of Psalm 53 that activity is unrighteous and in disobedience to God's commands. In John 4:34, Jesus' statement that "my food is to do the will of God" shows that the activity or food is to continually obey God's commands. Note how Jesus keeps saying that he does God's expressed will, and manifests the Father, and that our "food" is to believe this. Again, telling us to be a doer of the word and not merely a hearer of the word means that it's behaviour that matters, rather than mouthing words.

And the proof's in the pudding. Witness Lee, who stressed pray-reading as "eating God" and crucial to one's personal "intrinsic metabolic transformation", himself could not avoid every appearance of evil - see Philip Lee, Daystar, Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, &c - whilst Jesus who didn't even mention pray-reading was the spotless Lamb of God.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

And the proof's in the pudding. Witness Lee, who stressed pray-reading as "eating God" and crucial to one's personal "intrinsic metabolic transformation", himself could not avoid every appearance of evil - see Philip Lee, Daystar, Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, &c - whilst Jesus who didn't even mention pray-reading was the spotless Lamb of God.

No one who knows their flesh, and what it is capable of, should be surprised. If the Bible shows one thing it is the complete depravity of man - sowing to (or eating of) the flesh simply reaps corruption. No human is immune to this, and the OT is full of instances even among God's handpicked ones. What is important, as David showed, is always turning back to Him in humbleness. God loves a humble and contrite spirit, but strongly resists the proud.

So David is a good example - even though he sinned, he was always turning to God with all of it. Solomon is the bad example - he prayed well as a young man . . . asking for and receiving great wisdom to govern the people, and he also built and consecrated the temple. But he then allowed the seducing influence of foreign woman to carry him away into idolatry in the later part of his life. (sound familiar?)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If the Bible shows one thing it is the complete depravity of man

The Bible shows us two things, really: the complete depravity of man (you, me, David, Solomon etc etc etc) and the complete obedience of man (Jesus alone). Our faith is in the Second Adam and not the first. The whole problem with "enjoyment" in its various iterations is that it distracts us, from Christ to ourselves. Only his experiences are trustworthy. Yes, we are "enroute" as it were, but checking off the mile markers is delusional. Keep your hand on the plow and your eyes forward.

The above, of course, is my impression. Not a "truth" that I fight over. I judge no one's experience, nor take an antagonistic position. Just some thoughts from a fellow pilgrim along the way. But to me, "I come to do Your will, O God, behold in the scroll of the book is written concerning me" is Jesus Christ alone. Not me, exercising my spirit on the local ground (or off it). The "I" of scripture is Jesus Christ alone. Nothing else has value.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

How about this one:

I’m walking down the road
That leads to glory.
I’m pressing toward the mark
By enjoying God!
I don’t know so much,
Just to love Him.
I’m walking down the road,
Glory, here I come.
1
With the brothers and the sisters,
We enjoy Him day by day.
It’s so simple and easy,
Our worries flee away.
Now we’re growing together,
As one big family,
Abiding in the joy of the Lord.
2
We enjoy You, Lord Jesus,
In our experience.
We’re getting to know You—
It’s making us leap and dance.
Just eating and drinking,
It’s what we do the best,
Delighting in the love of the Lord.
3
We’re walking, not running,
Cause we’re in the pasture land.
Our Shepherd is nearby,
We’re trusting in His hand.
He’s everything to us,
He’s all we ever need,
Resting in the peace of the Lord.

I pull this over from another thread because it's an example of what seduced me, initially. "So simple and easy" and "we enjoy you Lord Jesus in our experience" became the latest wacko directive from Anaheim. It wasn't so simple or easy, after all, nor enjoyable, nor did it look anything like the Jesus I saw in the gospels in the NT. I protested, and was ignored. The Oracle of Anaheim had spoken.

And look at the "I don't know so much" in the chorus. That was code for "shut your mind off", inculcating deliberate ignorance. As one Blended said, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand" .. the One New Man, Witness Lee style.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

The Bible shows us two things, really: the complete depravity of man (you, me, David, Solomon etc etc etc) and the complete obedience of man (Jesus alone). Our faith is in the Second Adam and not the first. The whole problem with "enjoyment" in its various iterations is that it distracts us, from Christ to ourselves. Only his experiences are trustworthy. Yes, we are "enroute" as it were, but checking off the mile markers is delusional. Keep your hand on the plow and your eyes forward.

The above, of course, is my impression. Not a "truth" that I fight over. I judge no one's experience, nor take an antagonistic position. Just some thoughts from a fellow pilgrim along the way. But to me, "I come to do Your will, O God, behold in the scroll of the book is written concerning me" is Jesus Christ alone. Not me, exercising my spirit on the local ground (or off it). The "I" of scripture is Jesus Christ alone. Nothing else has value.



I pull this over from another thread because it's an example of what seduced me, initially. "So simple and easy" and "we enjoy you Lord Jesus in our experience" became the latest wacko directive from Anaheim. It wasn't so simple or easy, after all, nor enjoyable, nor did it look anything like the Jesus I saw in the gospels in the NT. I protested, and was ignored. The Oracle of Anaheim had spoken.

And look at the "I don't know so much" in the chorus. That was code for "shut your mind off", inculcating deliberate ignorance. As one Blended said, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand" .. the One New Man, Witness Lee style.

I wondered if someone would pick up on that! Yes, those things can certainly be symptomatic of a deep mind-washing. However, the simplicity of Christ is real! Paul tells us of this as well as Jesus - be as "little children." It doesn't mean we should be mindless, rather "Be wise as serpents, yet gentle as doves."

At this stage I actually want to be simple in Him and have grown to like the song more recently (I didn't used to). I do know a lot of stuff, but in the end it's just knowledge, which Paul says is of little real value and just "puffs up." So yes, this kind of "simplicity" was used by those in the LC to basically say, "Shut up and don't question the MOTA!" (this is not freedom in Christ, to be sure!) But there is a proper simplicity in Christ, right?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

..there is a proper simplicity in Christ, right?

Of course - Jesus was nothing if not simple. He was so simple that the ruler of this world could, in him, gain nothing. ~John 14:30 But there's another simplicity, that of the naive, undiscerning college freshman who's led away into captivity, of the deliberately cultivated mindlessness of the slackjawed and glassy-eyed acolyte: "whatever our brother says is God's oracle".

"But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ." ~ 2 Cor 11:3

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It doesn't mean we should be mindless, rather "Be wise as serpents, yet gentle as doves."

Right. Again, Christ is the paragon, here. "Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, for they are always with me. I have more insight than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation.…"Christ fulfilled this, and we believe into him. His righteousness is then imputed to us. He himself is our wisdom, from God.

[Sons to Glory!]

Agreed, so let's steer this back to the topic at hand . . . eating & drinking Jesus and who emphasizes this.

[Sons to Glory!]

I want to report that eating and drinking Christ was a main topic at this Thursday's brother breakfast here. As most topics, it just came up in the fellowship - not even sure who started it. The key idea discussed was that if we don't eat Him, we won't live Him. Several spoke about how that if they don't eat Christ regularly numerous times a day, then they pretty quickly feel weaker in their walk of faith. Many verses were shared as well on the topic, as they were brought to mind.

And not to make this more complicated than it is - we agreed that eating Jesus is just turning to Him in the word, by prayer, song, fellowship and other worship.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We agreed that eating Jesus is just turning to Him in the word, by prayer, song, fellowship and other worship.

Excellent! And this is what Christians have been teaching, preaching, experiencing and fellowshipping for over 2,000 years! So we don't need Witness Lee or his followers to tell us how to "eat Jesus". The Bible has told us already. The common, everyday believer already knows about eating Jesus, and they don't need any super apostle or "ministry" to emphasize it anymore than it is emphasized by the Word of God, and by the healthy teachers, preachers and apologists that God has placed in the Body in church history. Is't that wonderful?
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent! And this is what Christians have been teaching, preaching, experiencing and fellowshipping for over 2,000 years! So we don't need Witness Lee or his followers to tell us how to "eat Jesus". The Bible has told us already. The common, everyday believer already knows about eating Jesus, and they don't need any super apostle or "ministry" to emphasize it anymore than it is emphasized by the Word of God, and by the healthy teachers, preachers and apologists that God has placed in the Body in church history. Is't that wonderful?
-

Yes. And may the healthy teachers, preachers and apologists remember to do just that - that is, be faithful to tell us to turn to Him in all those ways, that we might live by His life!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

we agreed that eating Jesus is just turning to Him in the word, by prayer, song, fellowship and other worship.

But I don't see any evidence that eating Jesus accomplishes any transformation into the image or Christ ... of the making of god-men.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I don't see any evidence that eating Jesus accomplishes any transformation into the image or Christ ... of the making of god-men.

Neither have I seen any actual halos on these folks!

[OBW]

I didn't read every post in this thread, but my take is that despite the underpinnings, which are sound, the purpose in emphasizing "eating and drinking Jesus" by the LC is more to create a sense of superiority in spiritual linguistics (the LC lexicon) than anything. The underlying meaning of the term is much more meaningful. It does not need to have the once-or-twice-stated strange (to us) metaphor constantly repeated, sung about, etc., to help it along.

I note that Jesus did say it one time. For a particular purpose and in a particular context. Not constantly as a kind of "I've got a better lexicon" thing.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I don't see any evidence that eating Jesus accomplishes any transformation into the image or Christ ... of the making of god-men.

"He that eats (feeding/eating) me, even he shall live because of Me." John 6:57

The previous verses talks about if we eat and drink (Greek = active & ongoing action) Him, then that one will abide in Him and He in them. Of course, this is all in the context of Jesus being the True Bread coming down from heaven. The eating and drinking is in the tense of an ongoing action, not just a one time event.

Then in 2 Cor 3:18 we have: "We all with unveiled face beholding and reflecting as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." If we consider that the eating and drinking is the "Looking away unto Jesus," then we are transformed by this.

Eating and drinking always results in a metabolism of what is consumed. That is, it becomes part of us.

[Raptor]

The word of God "is like fresh bread, ...you know if you keep bread for too long it gets dry and stale, so don't let the word of God get dry and stale, live on fresh bread, bread that proceeds everyday out of the mouth of God".

Derek Prince

[MikhailianInception]

Hey SonstoGlory,

I know this may be an old post, but I was scouring through this website and found this thread. The LC seemed to be the only church talking about Eating Christ when one is in that particular group. But, just reading Church History has shown many people alluding to eating Christ and having an intimate relationship with Him. John Piper has alluded to it, Jonathan Edwards who preached Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Andrew Murray, T. Austin-Sparks, Frank Viola - I'm currently doing Viola's Living By The Indwelling Life of Christ discipleship course, Mike Bickle from IHOP (though I know people can divide over IHOP), Charles Spurgeon talks about feeding his spirit through the Word in prayer, The saints before the Reformation who practiced Lectio Divina. It's usually people who have savored Jesus Christ in their devotional life that they have seen spiritual growth or revivals break out through their ministries.

Just the Bible alone talks about Drinking and Eating (Isaiah 55:1, John 7:37-39, John 6:35-53, Genesis 1-3 - Eating from the Tree of Life or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). As much as the LC has taught this in their church, the Bible and Church History alludes to it. The LC does not have exclusivity to these practices, though they may claim that to be the case. Personally I have no problems with the Christian mystics of the past. If one is led by the Spirit, that in itself is a supernatural thing, and therefore can be counted as a mystical experience. I mean Jesus Himself rose from the dead. If that is not mystical/supernatural, I don't know what is!

-M.L.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by MikhailianInception

Hey SonstoGlory,

I know this may be an old post, but I was scouring through this website and found this thread. The LC seemed to be the only church talking about Eating Christ when one is in that particular group. But, just reading Church History has shown many people alluding to eating Christ and having an intimate relationship with Him. John Piper has alluded to it, Jonathan Edwards who preached Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Andrew Murray, T. Austin-Sparks, Frank Viola - I'm currently doing Viola's Living By The Indwelling Life of Christ discipleship course, Mike Bickle from IHOP (though I know people can divide over IHOP), Charles Spurgeon talks about feeding his spirit through the Word in prayer, The saints before the Reformation who practiced Lectio Divina. It's usually people who have savored Jesus Christ in their devotional life that they have seen spiritual growth or revivals break out through their ministries.

Just the Bible alone talks about Drinking and Eating (Isaiah 55:1, John 7:37-39, John 6:35-53, Genesis 1-3 - Eating from the Tree of Life or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). As much as the LC has taught this in their church, the Bible and Church History alludes to it. The LC does not have exclusivity to these practices, though they may claim that to be the case. Personally I have no problems with the Christian mystics of the past. If one is led by the Spirit, that in itself is a supernatural thing, and therefore can be counted as a mystical experience. I mean Jesus Himself rose from the dead. If that is not mystical/supernatural, I don't know what is!

-M.L.

Just fine going back to an old thread - I do it all the time! Thanks for all those saints you mentioned, who are (or were) speaking about eating and drinking Jesus! On this forum, we examine everything we got from TLR, including this topic. Some are leery and rejecting of anything put forth by WL and even WN, while others on here are less so. But it's good to be a Berean and look at all these thing, isn't it!?

May the Lord shine His light of freedom on us all!

[Raptor]

When the Lord uses the words "I am....." we need to pay much attention to what follows. Remember His words created the universe, so if He is saying something about Himself, it must be very important...especially if it is in the present tense.

"I am the bread of life...."

That's who He is (and millions of other things). There will not be a time when He is not the bread of life, He IS, everyday, throughout time and for all eternity, the bread of life.

You might say He was the bread of life to you when you first believed in Him back in 1982 (or whatever), ....and that's it, no need to eat Him today. But that is not what He said, "I am the bread of life..." that is today and in my experience everyday, and will continue to be for all eternity.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

When the Lord uses the words "I am....." we need to pay much attention to what follows. Remember His words created the universe, so if He is saying something about Himself, it must be very important...especially if it is in the present tense.

"I am the bread of life...."

That's who He is (and millions of other things). There will not be a time when He is not the bread of life, He IS, everyday, throughout time and for all eternity, the bread of life. ... He said, "I am the bread of life..." that is today and in my experience everyday, and will continue to be for all eternity.

Same with me, Raptor. I speak the Word A LOT into me. Lately I have been meditating and speaking Ephesians 6:10-17.
What constantly stands out to me is vs:17
take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God:

I remember several months after I was saved I went to a sisters apartment for lunch. They had a picture on the wall with a loaf of bread on a cutting board. The scripture underneath said "I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE". I suddenly received the revelation from the Holy Spirit as to what it meant. Back then we were always reading and 'pray reading' the Word of God.

I don't know how else to explain it but I understood John 6:36
I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE"; he that cometh to Me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst.

What is timely about this post, is that this past Monday, the husband of this sister whose apartment I was at, passed away. His name is Jim Rodman from San Diego.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Cal

Ironically, those in the LR don't actually eat and drink enough. If they did, they'd be more interested in the reality rather than being top dog and having the best jargon.

A few years back now, I had a nephew (in the LC) say to me at a large family gathering that saying it better improves the experience of Christ. He was tentatively eager to engage in a serious discussion of the claim, but then never actually showed up when we got a place set up to do it online (private group on Facebook). I promised myself to be focused and kind in the exchange, but there was never a single interaction.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

A few years back now, I had a nephew (in the LC) say to me at a large family gathering that saying it better improves the experience of Christ. He was tentatively eager to engage in a serious discussion of the claim, but then never actually showed up when we got a place set up to do it online (private group on Facebook). I promised myself to be focused and kind in the exchange, but there was never a single interaction.

I wonder if he was "coached" not to engage with you?

[Sons to Glory!]

So I've been thinking about what positive things I actually got out of the LC (rather than focusing on the things that were downers). Because OBW had posted something recently on this old thread, I was reminded of it and went back and reread the entire thread. I was quite impressed by the (mostly) healthy exchange on here regarding this topic! (I will say it is somewhat fascinating seeing how much we can go around and around something when we've misjudged or misinterpreted what others have said, isn't it!?)

To continue the thought of this thread (and not start yet another one), eating and drinking falls into the realm of something we must take action to do ourselves, whether in the physical or spiritual. There are many instances in the New Testament where we are told of our responsibility to use our own free will and perform. Accordingly, to get nourishment we must "Rise . . . kill and eat!" (Acts 10:13) In order to enjoy the feast that is made ready we must first "come!" (Luke 14:17) Yes, the riches of Christ are already there, but to enjoy we must first choose to take them. He will come in to dine with us, but before we can enjoy that wonderful experience we must open the door. (Rev 3:20) Therefore, there has to be some response on our part to His calling us. (does He not even provide us with the living hunger for Him? This is evident because dead people don't get hungry.)

Some verses that have come to mind regarding this recently, regarding taking the initiative in our pursuit of Him.

"For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you . . ." 2 Tim 1:6

"work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose . . . " Phil 2:12-13

"exercise thyself rather unto godliness." 1 Tim 4:7

"whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

"The spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets." 1 Cor 14:32

If there was anything positive that I got out of my time with the LC, it was that we are not called to sit back and be mere spectators in this grand masterpiece of God. We are called to actively participate in what He has done and has provided. "Rise Peter! Kill and eat!" Therefore we should sing, pray, worship, fellowship and walk in the good works He has prepared for us with our whole being engaged - body and soul and spirit!

In conclusion, I think perhaps my biggest positive takeaway from the LC was that I don't have to wait around for someone else to feed me while I spiritually starve, but rather I can take the initiative to enjoy what God has already provided me in Christ, the Bread of Life.