Soul & Spirit - Same or Different?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Spirit by works, as you'll find in the LC, it one that comes by imposing your own will onto the spiritual realm - aka the practices of "calling" and Lectio Divina (pray-reading).

Spirit by faith is one that comes as a result of Godly repentance, which is a work of God in your life, through faith alone.

These are two completely different spirits. The former is the spirit of the world, the latter is the Holy Spirit of God.

I didn't know what was meant by Lectio Divina, so I looked it up and found this video by evidently a Catholic preist (he calls himself "father"): Lactio Divina 4 explanation minute video

This is not too far from what I've practiced in my morning times with Jesus for some time now. I read the word; I thank the Lord for specific things I'm reading or ask Him to operate in my heart. Sometimes that leads into a song that comes up in me, so I sing that. But I use the scripture to meditate upon Him and His works and intentions towards me (and others), and thank/praise Him that He is faithful and true and able to do what He said He will do.

Do you see something wrong with that? (the one thing I probably don't do is Lectio Divina step #5 - go out and do something according to the meditation you just had - but not sure there's anything inherently wrong with that)

EDIT: Something to add - read this article on the perceived danger of Lectio divina:Danger of Lectio divina What this says is it may be a fine practice if we don't get too subjective and don't substitute it for good, careful study of scripture (exegesis). In other words, the author seems to say both is needed, and I agree.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I didn't know what was meant by Lectio Divina, so I looked it up and found this video by evidently a Catholic preist (he calls himself "father"): Lactio Divina 4 explanation minute video

This is not too far from what I've practiced in my morning times with Jesus for some time now. I read the word; I thank the Lord for specific things I'm reading or ask Him to operate in my heart. Sometimes that leads into a song that comes up in me, so I sing that. But I use the scripture to meditate upon Him and His works and intentions towards me (and others), and thank/praise Him that He is faithful and true and able to do what He said He will do. Do you see something wrong with that? (the one thing I don't do is Lectio Divina step #5 - go out and do something according to the meditation you just had - but not sure there's anything inherently wrong with that)

Lectio Divina is popular among Catholics and Gnostics. It actually predates Christianity but in the very early church it entered Christendom through the Gnostics and then later into the mainstream by monastic Catholicism.

It's a practice I discourage as it's a very similar to what you'll find in eastern mysticism where you take a verse and turn it into a mantra of sorts for the purpose of emptying the mind of thought. The idea of this is that God can only speak to you through a completely quiet and tranquil mind. It makes me wonder how the Holy Spirit spoke through those who were undergoing martyrdom...

The inherent danger in this is that by emptying the mind, there remains no buffer for differentiating or discerning between what is true and what is a lie. So those that benefit from Lectio Divina simply validate their experience by feelings rather than having a way to challenge their feelings through critical reasoning.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Lectio Divina is popular among Catholics and Gnostics. It actually predates Christianity but in the very early church it entered Christendom through the Gnostics and then later into the mainstream by monastic Catholicism.

It's a practice I discourage as it's a very similar to what you'll find in eastern mysticism where you take a verse and turn it into a mantra of sorts for the purpose of emptying the mind of thoughts. The idea of this is that God can only speak to you through a completely quiet and tranquil mind. It makes me wonder how the Holy Spirit spoke through those who were undergoing martyrdom...

The inherent danger in this is that by emptying the mind, there remains no buffer for differentiating or discerning between what is true and what is a lie. So those that benefit from Lectio Divina simply validate their experience by feelings rather than having a way to challenging their feelings through critical reasoning.

Gotcha, and that would be taking it to an extreme, and anything taken that far is . . . well . . . extreme! Please see the article and comment I posted after editing my last post (we're both quick to answer right now).

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Gotcha, and that would be taking it to an extreme, and anything taken that far is . . . well . . . extreme! Please see the article and comment I posted after editing my last post (we're both quick to answer right now).

I don't see anything in that article outlining a less extreme version of Lectio Divina. The author seems to flat out reject it altogether. I believe he's delineating between a subjective approach (LD) and an objective approach to scripture (Exegesis).

StG, perhaps you can outline your personal practice of pray-reading. What does it look like in detail? Does it look similar to the practice taught in the LC's where they single out a verse and declare it over and over again?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I don't see anything in that article outlining a lesser extreme version of Lectio Divina. The author seems to flat out reject it altogether. I believe he's delineating between a subjective approach (LD) and an objective approach to scripture (Exegesis).

StG, perhaps you can outline your personal practice of pray-reading. What does it look like in detail? Does it look similar to the practice taught in the LC's where they single out a verse and declare it over and over again?

I don't view my morning time as pray-reading exactly, at least not in the LC sense perhaps. I outlined it two posts ago - did you see that? I usually read a couple devotionals. One is Daily Light, edited by Anne Graham Lotz, which is is just a page of topical scripture. I read those verse while talking to the Lord. I intersperse it with prayer for other things and people, as they come to mind. If I don't understand something in the scripture, I ask the Lord to show me. I thank Him for His shed blood and for loving me and all of us. I praise Him for what He's done, is doing and what He has planned. If a good song comes to mind, I'll sing that (from memory usually). Really nothing set. (BTW - I don't say certain words over and over, like I've heard LC folks do.)

If that helps towards your question, great. If not, I'm happy to tell you more.

Also, I don't agree with what you said about that article and will post a quote from it, when I get a chance later.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I don't view my morning time as pray-reading exactly, at least not in the LC sense perhaps. I outlined it two posts ago - did you see that? I usually read a couple devotionals. One is Daily Light, edited by Anne Graham Lotz, which is is just a page of topical scripture. I read those verse while talking to the Lord. I intersperse it with prayer for other things and people, as they come to mind. If I don't understand something in the scripture, I ask the Lord to show me. I thank Him for His shed blood and for loving me and all of us. I praise Him for what He's done, is doing and what He has planned. If a good song comes to mind, I'll sing that (from memory usually). Really nothing set. (BTW - I don't say certain words over and over, like I've heard LC folks do.)

If that helps towards your question, great. If not, I'm happy to tell you more.

Also, I don't agree with what you said about that article and will post a quote from it, when I get a chance later.

Specifically, I was curious to know more detail on what you meant by this statement:

"But I use the scripture to meditate upon Him and His works and intentions towards me (and others)"

How exactly do you use scripture to meditate? What's involved in the meditating aspect of it? Are you simply referring to inward reflection or is it more involved than that?

Regardless it does look like you practice the 4 steps of traditional Lectio Divina (Lectio, Meditatio, Oratio, Contemplatio). The LC's do, in fact, act out an "evolved" version of Lectio Divina. It's akin to the practice of calling. Calling in the LC's also began as a simpler personal practice then snowballed into a corporate chant. It's the same dilemma of the lesser of two evils.

I have to say a pattern I see here with yourself and other ex LC members who defend these practices is not necessarily a desire to return to the purity of scripture as much as a desire to return to an earlier and more pure version of the Lord's Recovery. Or perhaps it's a process of progression toward complete freedom from the Local Churches. I hope for the latter.

It's quite astonishing when you come to the realization that the LC's are almost an exact microcosm of the Catholic church. In it's early formative years the Roman church too laid down a foundation of works based spirituality (mysticism). It first went through a period of flourishing, then became weighed down by legalism, and finally fractured into factions looking to return back to their spiritual roots.

My hope is that those who seek freedom from the legalism of the Local Churches don't stop short at Witness Lee or even Watchman Nee but continue on through to Christ and the Apostles lest you find yourselves repeating history.

[Sons to Glory!]

So here's a section of that article on I linked to before and which we both commented on. Found Here: A Danger of Lactio Divina

The Holy Spirit is undoubtedly trustworthy and can, miraculously, implant his intent in us intuitively. But does this possibility absolve us from doing the hard work of exegesis? Why would he have bothered inspiring Scripture in the first place? Is it not possible that the Spirit works through both research and meditation? By pursuing such a subjective approach to interpretation as “inspired” preaching, are we not at risk of ignoring what God intended in his Word in favor of preaching our own? Are we not conforming ourselves to the spirit of the age (of which we are necessarily a part) rather than to the depth of his Word?

This, then, is a danger in Lectio Divina, that it may teach us to approach the text subjectively rather than objectively, and that in this way it leads to unstable, unsupportable conclusions. Though it appears to elevate piety, it may just train us to preach badly.

In the bolded above, the author is saying that both are needed. I read this to mean that we can go into two extremes. Exegesis (WL used to call this "exit Jesus") is good, but it can produce deadness and dead letter, devoid of Spirit. The other extreme, call it Lectio Divina or whatever, could produce something too subjective. Bros here in Scottsdale talk about this sometimes. The need is expressed to "dive deep" into the study of the word, to crack the books, the Greek, etc. to get some real riches. I've heard bros here say that the idea of "Get out of your mind" is not a good one, since God gave us a mind for a reason. But all mind is just that - all our mental (human) understanding and no Spirit. It's an extreme. An unturned cake. I think what the author here is saying is that there should be a balance of both. And they use the word "may," as in Lectio Divina "may teach us to approach the text subjectively rather than objectively, and that in this way it leads to unstable, unsupportable conclusions." Sure, suppose I can see that . . . it needs a balance with the solid scriptural study too.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Specifically, I was curious to know more detail on what you meant by this statement:

"But I use the scripture to meditate upon Him and His works and intentions towards me (and others)"

How exactly do you use scripture to meditate? What's involved in the meditating aspect of it? Are you simply referring to inward reflection or is it more involved than that?

Regardless it does look like you practice the 4 steps of traditional Lectio Divina (Lectio, Meditatio, Oratio, Contemplatio). The LC's do, in fact, act out an "evolved" version of Lectio Divina. It's akin to the practice of calling. Calling in the LC's also began as a simpler personal practice then snowballed into a corporate chant. It's the same dilemma of the lesser of two evils.

I have to say a pattern I see here with yourself and other ex LC members who defend these practices is not necessarily a desire to return to the purity of scripture as much as a desire to return to an earlier and more pure version of the Lord's Recovery. Or perhaps it's a process of progression toward complete freedom from the Local Churches. I hope for the latter.

It's quite astonishing when you come to the realization that the LC's are almost an exact microcosm of the Catholic church. In it's early formative years the Roman church too laid down a foundation of works based spirituality (mysticism). It first went through a period of flourishing, then became weighed down by legalism, and finally fractured into factions looking to return back to their spiritual roots.

My hope is that those who seek freedom from the legalism of the Local Churches don't stop short at Witness Lee or even Watchman Nee but continue on through to Christ and the Apostles lest you find yourselves repeating history. StG says YES! Amen to that!!!

I often see the parallels of the LC with the RCC. It's what happens when man's flesh takes control - it eventually wants a strong, centrally controlling authority. This is the natural route many Christian groups have taken. So by sight the church is a mess. But by faith the church is His glorious bride and is just fine - He's got this!

Concerning your bolded comment above, I surely don't see it as the former - no one thinks we should go back to those times, although there certainly was an undeniable move of the Spirit present back then - it's just something He did in the past. Jo, you see patterns of things people are supposedly trying to defend regarding LC practices, because you evidently tend to only see the dirty bathwater, and you view all things LC through that lens. Some on here may share your perspective and others on here don't. Perhaps you should try to refrain from categorizing everyone that doesn't automatically assume your viewpoint, as someone who is still totally mired in the LC clay.

Regarding your question about my morning time with the Lord, I'm not sure why you are asking for these details. Do you want to correct something with how I'm pursuing Jesus? Will it be a help to you if I record my morning time so you can see exactly? (not going to do that) I just don't know the profit in conveying any more than what I've already conveyed. I will say it's not a set, religious thing I do and any morning may go in differing directions. For instance, at the end of this morning's time, I wound-up in Ephesians chapter three, since we are going through that book now. I read the verses (can't remember if out loud or not) and considered their meaning. Any-a-ways, maybe I should ask you - what happens in your morning time with the Lord, bro?