Minoru Chen is filled with Witness Lee's spirit?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

...I'm not trying to give a bible study, but only personal thoughts; I have no insight that would reveal the nature of the spirit world. But it seems to me that the spirit that possessed Lee...

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

BJB--

This may just be a matter of terminology, but I have come to believe that Christians cannot be "possessed" by spirits or demons. I believe Witness Lee was a Christian...a believer...regenerated whatever term you want to use, so I don't believe he was "possessed" by demons. Minoru, I don't know. He shares non-Christian teachings as though they were Biblical truth. But then, so did Lee.

Christians can be afflicted by demons...tormented by demons and clearly Christians can be deceived by Satan and his minions. Hence we are told to "try the spirits":

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It's important to "know your enemy". If you're interested, The Bondage Breaker by Neil T. Anderson is a good place to start.

I/We were clearly deceived by the Devil into believing whatever "the ministry" taught. I think it's time to get educated.

Nell

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

But what was the overwhelming motivation that led WL to even set himself up as a deputy authority and insist that his speaking was the word, and demand that all local churches accept his authority and LSM? Why would a little bible preacher, who did such a great job establishing the "local" church, and the recovery of the church wreck what he worked so hard to establish. What was that motivating force, what drove him to turn his back on such faithful servants of the Lord as John Ingalls? In my view, what was the work of the Lord to establish scriptural assemblies- something that hasn't been practiced in over 1700 years was destroyed by this motivation (and of course, by all who played along with it).

And now Minoru says he has the same spirit.
And now Minoro feels he has the same spirit

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I started reading The Bondage Breaker years ago, but never finished it. If I remember, it was too jaded toward finding demons around every corner- something I don't do.

It's a reality that there actually are demonic spirits everywhere...around every corner...? Maybe?

From NTA: "The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of demons any more than it attempts to prove the existence of God. It simply reports on their activities as if its readers accepted their existence. Nor did the early church fathers have a problem with the reality and personality of demons. ...

"But we need not fear Satan and his demons as long as you cling to God's truth. Their only weapon is deception." Our only weapon is truth and its power to dispel the darkness.

NTA's books educate people to the reality of the spirit world and report on the possibility of their activity in our lives. The Bondage Breaker does emphasize that he is not looking for demons around every corner. It would be a good idea not to give up on the book. Many people have been helped with the light NTA brought to the subject, myself included. He emphasizes truth as the only weapon against deception and it is the tactic of Satan and his minions to deceive, as we first saw in Gen. 3.

Nell

[Nell]

This video by Neil T. Anderson will put things in perspective as an alternative to the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, his answers are excellent.

Nell

[UntoHim]

The simple truth is that Minoru is just like all of us....or I should say like many of us use to be. Many of us were captivated by a wonderful vision - Christ and the church. Any thoughts of Asian/Chinese culture, much less any intricate guanxi network, were the farthest thing from our hearts and minds. Everything was so simple - just love the Lord, the saints, and of course - and above all - the church. "God's eternal purpose" guided our every thought, motive and action. What else was worth sacrificing all or our time, energy and emotion for? What else was worth abandoning jobs, careers, friends and even family? Many of us were young and in love - literally babes in the faith, and decidedly blind as a bat in love.

So what happened? Why does Minoru Chen seem so out of touch with the truth, and even reality? Why does he still vehemently deny what all of us now see as plain as day? How is it that speaking the words "I am filled with brother Lee's spirit" seem so offensive, and even patently unchristian to us today? Who changed? Who moved away from "Christ and church"? Well, let me tell you, it is not Minoru who has moved away. He is still there right where we left him - a devout follower of the person and work of Witness Lee. He is still speaking the same language, the same vocabulary. If we are honest with ourselves, back in the day, Minoru's speaking would have been very normal to us. In fact, we would have probably stood up after the message and testified loudly and strongly "Amen! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Oh, Lord Jesus, I too am filled with Witness Lee's spirit!"

My brothers and sisters, there is indeed "a spirit" at work here. It is the very same spirit that has been at work in the Local Church of Witness Lee/Watchman Nee since the beginning. This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the initiation of the "New Way". This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the late 70s during the Max Rapaport/young people fiasco, or when LSM started charging $50 for us to sit in those hard plastic seats for 30 training messages twice a year. This spirit did not just suddenly appear in the move from Elden Hall to Anaheim, or when the Daystar debacle robbed many of the saints of their life savings. This spirit did not just suddenly appear when Witness Lee lied to us gullible Americans by telling us he was leaving a blessed and fruitful work in Taiwan to "bring the Lord's Recovery to the top Christian country on earth". Shall I go on? Shall I relate the multiple testimonies of brothers and sisters in the Far East who could tell us about this spirit at work from the earliest days in mainland China? If Dr. Lily Hsu was willing, I'm sure she could testify and confirm - for now we can just read and weep over the pages of her testimony in My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Does the fact that this spirit has been at work among the leadership in the Local Church movement negate or nullify all the wonderful and glorious things the Lord was able to do in and among us? Well I would say that it neither negates nor nullifies any more than the Children of Israel's disobedience and worship of false God's negated or nullified the promises made to Abraham all those thousands of years ago. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob blessed and multiplied despite all the sins and despite all the wickedness. Sometimes, many times, maybe even most of the time, God blesses and multiplies not because of man's faithfulness or dutifulness, but in spite of it. And many times he has poured out his Spirit despite our unfaithfulness and despite our sinfulness. In the case of the Local Church, he has poured out a measure of his Spirit and his blessing despite the fact that another spirit has been allowed to work among them. Yes, may God have mercy on us all.
-

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

My brothers and sisters, there is indeed "a spirit" at work here. It is the very same spirit that has been at work in the Local Church of Witness Lee/Watchman Nee since the beginning. This spirit did not just suddenly appear during the initiation of the "New Way".

I’ve often wished I and all the saints had the same zeal for the church-and all things of the truth as Paul the apostle had, but the way and the desire is to be filled with the Holy Spirit, not full of another man’s spirit and particularly a dead man’s, including Paul’s

My recollection of things was that the New Way was a departure from the old way. In the old way, not everyone and all the churches, and leading ones were totally on board with WL. Yes, you are correct that that “spirit” was manifested in WL in the 70’s, and most leaders and wannabes latched onto his coattails, but it seems to me that by the mid-80’s when he completed his Recovery Version, that the trainings and to some extent his usefulness would be waning. That would not be good for the business revenue stream. There was already grumbling from some leaders and some churches not being onboard, and he started berating them. Then came the New Way, which was a whole new load of reprocessed messages into life/truth lesions etc, and the whole door knocking marketing scheme. I left by the time the FTT got geared up, but another way to market and sell more products. That whole thing must have run it’s course by now, and my suspicion is that someone in that Blended cabal needs to be the New Exclusive Mr Big to start a new type of revenue flow. Who better than Minoru Chen? This of course is just speculation on my part. The children remember the grandfather, but to the next generation, the grandfather is just a story figure. The LCs are at that next generation thing and the LSM needs a new face.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

This video by Neil T. Anderson will put things in perspective as an alternative to the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, his answers are excellent.

Nell

Thanks for posting this, Nell. I thought about ordering Andersons' book you referenced earlier but had not, and this interview gives great insight to what he is believing and speaking. I haven't listened to the whole thing but what I have is great and I am in agreement with. His topic pertains to a member of my family.....just thank you for this link.

[byHismercy]

I feel a lot of frustration with Minoru for misleading the saints with his spiritism, or whatever you would like to label it. It is simply wrong. This morning we read the first few chapters of Matthew and I was really excited to 'see' the trinity at Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist. The Spirit of God came down and lit upon Jesus like a dove, the heavens opened, God the Father spoke of His beloved Son, in Whom He is well pleased. All three were present. Later it was allowed that the Spirit led Jesus away to be tempted of the devil, who quoted scripture to the Lord, using Gods' word to tempt and test Him. This account of Jesus response shows us scripture being fulfilled, which is wonderful and necessary.

I hope and pray that you are wrong, UntoHim. (Regarding saints then or now saying amen to Minorus' statement) My prayer is for the saints currently inside the Recovery to be so deeply offended in spirit, as I feel, at this presentation by Minoru of Lees' spirit, that many would turn away from this ministry, many would walk away, now. My prayer is for the veil to be lifted from their faces regarding the spirit they are partaking of, there.

The only God they need to look to was there at Jesus' baptism. Every other spirit is the wrong road, the wrong way, if their goal is God in Christ Jesus. Lord Jesus, lift the veil, have mercy, on every soul in TLR.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Nell

It's a reality that there actually are demonic spirits everywhere...around every corner...? Maybe?

From NTA: "The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of demons any more than it attempts to prove the existence of God. It simply reports on their activities as if its readers accepted their existence. Nor did the early church fathers have a problem with the reality and personality of demons. ...

"But we need not fear Satan and his demons as long as you cling to God's truth. Their only weapon is deception." Our only weapon is truth and its power to dispel the darkness.

NTA's books educate people to the reality of the spirit world and report on the possibility of their activity in our lives. The Bondage Breaker does emphasize that he is not looking for demons around every corner. It would be a good idea not to give up on the book. Many people have been helped with the light NTA brought to the subject, myself included. He emphasizes truth as the only weapon against deception and it is the tactic of Satan and his minions to deceive, as we first saw in Gen. 3.

Nell

And this is the thing- you may appreciate NA and I may not find his book helpful, but to insist that an assembly accept, be bound by NA’s teaching as the only true, up to date speaking is way off the mark. The New Way insisted that all accept WL/LSM or else! It was a move that was totally divisive. I should appreciate you, and you me because we are in Christ- fellow believers. A ministry should not define the relationship of the saints. I would think someone like Minoru would take a long look at how LSM took over control of the LCs and what damage it has done to the saints and the testimony and standard the Churches should hold, and speak out against it. But instead, to say he is full of WLs spirit is to continue to damage and mislead the saints. It seems to me that he is gunning to be the new deputy authority- the whole blended bro thing has got to be running out of steam. How does anyone read the scripture and think it has any validity?