Fixing the Problems Helps Everyone Concerned, even LC Leadership

[UntoHim]

I don't really have a dog in this fight (come to think of it, I don't have a dog at all) but as I was reading through the various responces I thought of what Paul told the Corinthians (1 Cor 15:10)
..and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Sometimes I think taking the Nee/Lee aproach of "Everything is simply Christ" or "all we need is Christ" can lead us to a place where we are at risk of nullifying God's grace (or as Paul says here "to make his grace towards us in vain". Paul didn't just sit back resting on the laurels of God's grace, rather he "worked harder than any of them". Maybe "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" aplies here as well.
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[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sometimes I think taking the Nee/Lee approach of "Everything is simply Christ" or "all we need is Christ" can lead us to a place where we are at risk of nullifying God's grace (or as Paul says here "to make his grace towards us in vain". Paul didn't just sit back resting on the laurels of God's grace, rather he "worked harder than any of them". Maybe "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" applies here as well.

In the title of the thread, the words "fixing problems" and "helping leadership" jumps out. The original post showed the problem of a fallen human being trapped and isolated by the power structure that is supposed to protect him. Jesus, the One with all power, fully channeling the Father here on earth, let himself be so vulnerable to the machinations of fallen humanity. "I am a worm and not a man"

Originally Posted by Curious

King Xerxes was exploited in a sense by his own position and the set-up that elevated him also isolated him, harming him.

Curious' point, as I see it, is that current LC leaders can learn from WL's mistakes, and be healed, just as previously Lee learned from Luther and Calvin and thence from the RCC, etc. All those forebears were part of the great passing-on of the gospel (and thank God for that!) but none of them were the equivalent of "Christ", deserving unrivaled place among the brethren, and slavish, unquestioning obedience. Only Jesus has that place, and he has that place precisely because he emptied himself. The Father elevated him, not he himself... Jesus emptied himself.

The Jews knew all this, I believe, which is why the failures of Peter were not hidden. Neither were those of David in earlier scriptures. Etc. But the LC created a farcical, bowdlerised history in order to hide their defects, especially of their leadership's history. And this very hiding is the proof of all the unresolved shame at the root of it all.

God: "Hey, Adam, why are you and Eve over there in the bushes with fig leaves plastered all over your bodies?"

Adam: "What fig leaves? What bushes?"

You can't fix the problem unless you realise there's a problem. Jesus' first words of ministry were 'repent'. That goes for everyone: at the end of the NT, the aged disciple John on Patmos was still writing, 'repent'.

And the masquerade shows the problem, it doesn't hide it. The LC power structure functions by transferring shame. It doesn't heal the shame. But we all need to be healed. All of us.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I don't really have a dog in this fight (come to think of it, I don't have a dog at all) but as I was reading through the various responces I thought of what Paul told the Corinthians (1 Cor 15:10)
..and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Sometimes I think taking the Nee/Lee aproach of "Everything is simply Christ" or "all we need is Christ" can lead us to a place where we are at risk of nullifying God's grace (or as Paul says here "to make his grace towards us in vain". Paul didn't just sit back resting on the laurels of God's grace, rather he "worked harder than any of them". Maybe "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" aplies here as well.
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Well, if I think I know anything it is that there really isn't a formula, is there!? (but that still doesn't mean I'll stop looking for one ha ha) Except I must say again that this is my big takeaway from going through Galatians this time - that is there is no benefit to adding to what is already complete in Him (and why would we want to do that?) which just leads to bondage.

[Curious]

In my opening post I was seeking to catch the attention perhaps of those ‘responsible ones’ in the Local Church with something that might be relevant to their experience, which correcting their practise and thinking might resolve for them.

Also, on this forum, we’ve been very clear about ‘what’ they need to do, but just like a boring, academic-only sermon, that tells you ‘what’ you ought to be in Christ, (which most people know already), but says nothing about the ‘how’ do you achieve this, I thought we should consider ‘how’ , in a practical way, could the LC be influenced by aware leaders from within, to adjust.
And For all we know, there could well be persons within who secretly are thinking about this too.

In other words:

What if….some in the LC, even those high up in the system, have begun to take seriously, the messages from the ‘dissenters and opposers’ who have posted their concerns.

What if….there have become a number of those within, that have become increasingly aware of the validity of the claims they have read.

What if….those persons have become uncomfortable, even troubled and anxious about it all, but don’t know what to do about it. They feel stuck. Especially that they aren’t bred to have good independent thinking skills, an essential skill for planning a strategy to escape. Perhaps they need help.

What if… these persons are fearful, stressed and are carrying now great internal conflict and guilt, their cognitive dissonance ramped up to high levels, feeling forced to pretend and agree with things they no longer feel comfortable to agree with.

We don’t know the effectiveness of this website and the other materials on the internet that are available. There may be many individuals, even ones like king Xerxes who have done wrong in the past, but who are repentant now and would seek a better way. They may never post here, but we can respond to their need anyway.

I feel there is a responsibility on a ‘whistle blower’ to then be a practical help to those who hear the message but aren’t equipped to know what to do about it. To help in mopping up the fallout.

So I think it good to put our minds together and think of the ‘how’ for those who are on board with the ‘what’. I hope that makes sense, I know I’m a bit ‘wordy’ but I try to be clear!!

So in the scenario that it’s a person high up. Is it so simple that they could just acknowledge these matters addressed for them here and elsewhere, and start to seek out how they could correct things and face the wrongs? Publicly and abruptly?

I see some big problems in the logistics of it.

This movement is indeed under the cloak of Chinese culture, confessed by themselves even, when convenient for self-justification. However, a very strong element of Chinese culture is a fear of ‘losing face’. ‘Saving face’ is an extremely important social rule in China. To lose face has an association of shame attached to it much greater than in the West, and it is understood that everyone scrambles away from such a possibility in any way they can. Lying usually the most available option. We are asking them to face up to their wrongs from within our cultural framework that has valued humility and honesty for centuries, due to the historical application of the knowledge of the bible and its influence on out whole culture.

The LC is built on the idea that they are above the mistakes of the rest, there is so much faith and expectation built up in this idea, and cultural arrogance embedded, that such a confession would potentially have a huge and immediate fallout from within the system itself. They don’t have the internal culture/maturity to cope with this. Those at the top may feel that all that is good in the LC would be compromised, people would be so disillusioned and even angry with them, and may turn away and the good could be sabotaged. That alone may stop them from taking such a step. They may be trying to protect their method of practise of engaging with God in the spirit, which they believe both that; they are the only people on earth who are getting right, and is essential to have a genuine Christian life.

It’s actually a difficult place for them to be. Its contrary to all they have stood for and believed in of themselves. Maybe members would become depressed. It could be huge. To lose their identity on a mass scale in a moment of time. It could even be a cruel and destructive thing to drop the whole truth at once without any preparation. I don’t envy the leaders being in that position of responsibility to bring this change in a way that would bring hope and not a negative upheaval to its followers. The negative upheaval may be necessary but no-one wants to bring such a disturbance on to unsuspecting followers. A clear and kind strategy needs to be thought out and put in place I think.

Maybe they don’t care about any of that, but if they do, then they would need help and support in managing this wisely. I just thought its worth being aware of the logistics of this proposition, the thought that those who have raised the issues might need to then be the friends and helpers of any LC leaders who could consider putting things right. I think that what ‘Jesus would do!’ …support, those seeking truth, correction and help, and we could offer some of that.

One thought is…Maybe they could look to Gorbachev, Russia’s leader who brought in ‘perestroika’ and ‘glasnost’, (meaning ‘listen’ and ‘openness’). In his memoirs he states that it was in response to the tragedy of Chernobyl and the way it was handled that caused him to create these policies. A culture of secrecy, a focus on blame-shifting rather than fixing the problem, the belief that Russia was a superior nation to any other, and many other (parallel to LC) issues were to be unworked over time with his reforms. It didn't go that smoothly and Russians were very disillusioned to discover they had been lied to about the condition of the rest of the world. Maybe reality cant be sugar-coated. However it could nevertheless be useful to look into. Even if it just helps to know others have been in the spot they are in, even Russian leaders...on a monumental scale! After all, Ecclesiaties tells us, 'there is nothing new under the sun', every problem has been faced before. God has a way...

That’s just my thoughts, enough for one long post!!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

So in the scenario that it’s a person high up. Is it so simple that they could just acknowledge these matters addressed for them here and elsewhere, and start to seek out how they could correct things and face the wrongs? Publicly and abruptly?

I see some big problems in the logistics of it.

This movement is indeed under the cloak of Chinese culture, confessed by themselves even, when convenient for self-justification. However, a very strong element of Chinese culture is a fear of ‘losing face’. ‘Saving face’ is an extremely important social rule in China. To lose face has an association of shame attached to it much greater than in the West, and it is understood that everyone scrambles away from such a possibility in any way they can. Lying usually the most available option. We're asking them to face their wrongs from within our cultural framework that's valued humility and honesty for centuries, due to the historical application of the knowledge of the bible and its influence on our whole culture.

I read an interesting story recently about the flu virus pandemic that has hit China. The doctor who discovered the virus was an Ophthalmologist by training, not an epidemiologist. When he realized what was happening, he tried to communicate with his colleagues what the risk was. Someone promptly reported him to the government for spreading destabilizing rumours. He was denounced for being "unpatriotic" and so forth. There is a reason this society of over a billion people is so averse to the truth. It creates instability. I mean, look at the chaos the USA goes through every 4 years with elections! Accusations, recriminations, etc.

So one can understand their strong aversion to this style of exposing communication. Yet, there are advantages to the truth. Look at the Bible, with King David's failures, Moses' failures, the various kings who didn't match God's requirements, and this continued unabated into the NT. Nobody, including Paul, is infallible. This is Christianity 101, and should be read out in the first week's catechism. Being exposed to the truth allows one to reset, to change, to learn and grow.

Chinese culture has got to, at some point, take a back seat to the Bible, in the Christian church. But doesn't have to be effaced. There is still "every tribe, and tongue, and nation" glorifying God (Rev 5:9; 7:9). The Chinese are welcome at the banquet feast! It's okay! There is no shame!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I read an interesting story recently about the flu virus pandemic that has hit China. The doctor who discovered the virus was an Ophthalmologist by training, not an epidemiologist. When he realized what was happening, he tried to communicate with his colleagues what the risk was. Someone promptly reported him to the government for spreading destabilizing rumours. He was denounced for being "unpatriotic" and so forth. There is a reason this society of over a billion people is so averse to the truth. It creates instability. I mean, look at the chaos the USA goes through every 4 years with elections! Accusations, recriminations, etc.

Without a doubt, the LC would be seriously destabilized if they ever confronted the truth. It could even collapse completely. The current leadership probably realizes this to some extent, and just as much, they also don't have the humility to admit that they are wrong.

What compounds the problem even further is that among the rank and file members, they are living in a state of cognitive dissonance. They came into the LC and adapted the belief that they are now part of the best of the best. Anything that contradicts that belief becomes suspect. So lets imaging that someone like Ron Kangas were to come clean - he admits that he was wrong, that he has abused his position as a leader, etc. Would LC members all nod their heads in agreement, or would the quickly turn on him as someone who has become the enemy?

In other words, they have checks throughout the system in place to ensure that there is no type of instability/uprising that could creep in undetected.

[Curious]

Thankyou both for clarifying the pillars that hold the whole system in place and how inpenetrable they are. It can only take a Samson to be strong enough to destroy it all!! So the options are clear, we can only continue to be the voices marching around the walls of Jericho, rescuing the escapies, (Rahabs, which represent those aware they have been abused) and getting more numerous, and our voices louder, as time goes by.

We can pray too. Forgive them, learn from their mistakes. We can feel sorry for those entrapped, without enough faith to overturn their lives in order to get out.

That settles my mind as to what is possible anyway.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

That settles my mind as to what is possible anyway.

I think it's helpful to discern some of the barriers, and of what they are made (social, economic, psychological, cultural, a mix). They are real barriers to change, and some seem intertwined and quite stubborn.

The thing that fascinates me is that "hard" systems are also fairly brittle. Systems that resist any change at all, can implode when an opening is found. I think of a 38 year-old mother of two young children, a registered dietitian, not a "co-worker" or a big theologian, just a "little sister" who with her husband writes an open letter, publishes it with her name, on Facebook.

It was such a small act, really, but the impact of one couple being willing to honest and open was amazing. The reaction was so disproportionate to the act - both in those who initially responded to the letter, and then the 'official' reaction. It showed the weakness of the whole system, that it could get shaken profoundly by something that seemed so small.

So if someone "high up in the system" as Curious states it, were to have a repentant change of heart, it could really open a door. We shall see.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Curious

Thankyou both for clarifying the pillars that hold the whole system in place and how inpenetrable they are. It can only take a Samson to be strong enough to destroy it all!! So the options are clear, we can only continue to be the voices marching around the walls of Jericho, rescuing the escapies, (Rahabs, which represent those aware they have been abused) and getting more numerous, and our voices louder, as time goes by.

We can pray too. Forgive them, learn from their mistakes. We can feel sorry for those entrapped, without enough faith to overturn their lives in order to get out.

That settles my mind as to what is possible anyway.

I hope that my posts don't come across the wrong way. I'm certainly not against seeing reform happen within the LC, I just don't see it as being likely.

One thing that I think is important to point out in regards to my own experience is that while in the LC, I got led down a lot of rabbit holes in regards to things that we were expected to hope/pray for. As it turned out, a lot of the things that we thought were meant to be really weren't. I suspect that many former members might have a similar perspective.

Again, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with what you're trying to accomplish here, I'm just saying that there is a distinct possibility that the LC will collapse without ever seeing reform. So if there are two possible outcomes, without knowing which one will occur, it becomes a matter of hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

Thus, I think a lot of what could be most beneficial for current members is not just "how" change could be implemented with the LC, but also helping them to know how/when to abandon ship. For example, lets say they are provided with some really good and specific suggestions with how changes could be implemented, and some members take it upon themselves to try to implement those changes. How long should they do that if there is no result or positive outcome? It's questions like that which I think also factor in here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

What compounds the problem even further is that among the rank and file members, they are living in a state of cognitive dissonance. They came into the LC and adapted the belief that they are now part of the best of the best.

We should also note that Lee's ministry has an eerie effect on its readers. Some I know, who left years ago, still regularly read the ministry books because "it gives them life," or so they say and believe. Yes, Lee's ministry provides mountains of Bible knowledge and talks extensively about experiencing God, but it's more like a feeding tube for the terminally ill. With his ministry also comes pride, judgmentalism, arrogance -- all the components of the "leaven of the Pharisees."