A Christian Seeking Answers

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

Well the former is rather subjective. Second, holiness doesn't make someone knowledgeable. Mary was holy and yet she made mistakes when it came to knowing things. In the realm of knowledge, demonstration is king. Training puts one in a position to provide reliable demonstrations.

The Pharisees were quite knowledgeable about scripture, but not knowing the Author very well caused them to err significantly.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The Pharisees were quite knowledgeable about scripture, but not knowing the Author very well caused them to err significantly.

If my memory serves me, Jesus was on record saying, "You err, not knowing scripture." Not, "You err, knowing scripture but not subjectively knowing the Author of scripture."

The truth is that people have such feeble and faint knowledge of scripture that they are easy prey for charlatans and con-men like Hanegraaf and Lee, who also don't know scripture but can make a living pretending they do. In Hank's case, a nice living - I've seen the numbers.

Here's an interesting question - how many hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of hours of free labour did Witness Lee get, all to prop up his self-publishing business? As crass and money-grubbing as HH appears, in reality he has nothing on WL, whose minions feted HH out of the petty cash box.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

If my memory serves me, Jesus was on record saying, "You err, not knowing scripture." Not, "You err, knowing scripture but not subjectively knowing the Author of scripture."

The truth is that people have such feeble and faint knowledge of scripture that they are easy prey for charlatans and con-men like Hanegraaf and Lee, who also don't know scripture but can make a living pretending they do. In Hank's case, a nice living - I've seen the numbers.

Yes, but don't you think that's the implication? He said many times that they didn't really know God. And how about this - "You search the scriptures but you will not come to Me?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, but don't you think that's the implication? He said many times that they didn't really know God. And how about this - "You search the scriptures but you will not come to Me?"

Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God." ~Matt 22:29

I think the implication is ignorance. But its ignorance of the worst kind, that of those who think they aren't ignorant, simply because they can cite a few more verses than the unlettered folk. Relative to most Galileans they aren't ignorant (cf Acts 4:13), but Jesus isn't most Galileans. "And they were astonished at his teaching", not merely in its subjective passion but in its wisdom.

I'm an extremely ignorant man. But I'm not so ignorant, today, that I allow a charlatan to tell me that I'm wise. Lee duped me, once. You know what they say, "Fool me once..."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God." ~Matt 22:29

I think the implication is ignorance. But its ignorance of the worst kind, that of those who think they aren't ignorant, simply because they can cite a few more verses than the unlettered folk. Relative to most Galileans they aren't ignorant (cf Acts 4:13), but Jesus isn't most Galileans. "And they were astonished at his teaching", not merely in its subjective passion but in its wisdom.

I'm an extremely ignorant man. But I'm not so ignorant, today, that I allow a charlatan to tell me that I'm wise. Lee duped me, once. You know what they say, "Fool me once..."

They didn't know God, and Jesus said if they had, they would have known the One He sent. Without knowing God, they couldn't rightly divide scripture.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

They didn't know God, and Jesus said if they had, they would have known the One He sent. Without knowing God, they couldn't rightly divide scripture.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Jesus didn't say, "You know scripture but don't know God", or "You know scripture but don't rightly divide it."

Scripture revealed God, and Jesus as incarnate Word did as well. But if they knew scripture they would have recognized Messiah, plainly foretold. There are many positive instances of this in the gospels, from the infancy narratives on up. The epistles confirm this. ~Rom 1:2

The crime of the Pharisees wasn't that they were ignorant but that they thought that they were wise. This conceit allowed them some place among their fellows, but it became a major stumbling when they met Jesus.

"Lord, when did we see you sick?"

"When you saw these, the least of my brothers".

Scripture plainly showed how to treat the poor and the feeble. It's in many of the "low" and "natural concepts" sections that Lee dismissed. He wasn't interested in "works" but in "grace", or his version thereof. But the scripture clearly showed grace, in Jesus reaching out to those who society rejected as unfit and unclean. It was foretold, it was fulfilled, and it was expected that we would follow.

[Acolyte4236]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The Pharisees were quite knowledgeable about scripture, but not knowing the Author very well caused them to err significantly.

Well, I never said that knowledge was a sufficient condition for being correct. My point was that it helps to weed out all kinds of mistakes, not that it weeds out every kind of mistake. this is why your example doesn't touch my point, which was if people would put more stock in things that could be demonstrated rather than subjective claims of the Spirit doing this or that, we would not have the LC and other sects.

Act 17:2

And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

1Ti 4:16

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

My point was that knowledge helps to weed out all kinds of mistakes, not that it weeds out every kind of mistake. This is why your example doesn't touch my point, which was if people would put more stock in things that could be demonstrated rather than subjective claims of the Spirit doing this or that, we would not have the LC and other sects.

I was immersed in the LC for years, and under the thrall of their thinking. But I had several conversations on the way out (not realising they were 'exit interviews' at the time) which illuminated what I was dealing with.

You see, I'd recently begun "enjoying God" outside of the LSM literature. I'd actually been in experientially immersed scripture apart from what they called the "interpreted word" of Witness Lee's commentaries. I'd sensed Jesus' Holy Spirit there, and was now sharing this new enjoyment in a meeting. ("He's new and fresh, available and near" went the LC song) As I shared, the group leader's face became grim, and he silently looked ahead. The other ones froze, paralyzed. I didn't realise at the time but I'd strayed off ministry ground.

I thought the whole affair odd at the time, even strikingly so, but it wasn't until years later that I began to appreciate to what extent that scripture in the LC was merely used to support ministry doctrines. There were a number of 'special verses' in the LC, of which most readers here will be familiar. These "prove" the LC themes. Then the mass of scripture is covered, in order to be lined up. And whatever scripture couldn't be lined up got dismissed as "fallen" and so forth. (Which portion of scripture was a lot larger than most appreciated)

And underneath the doctrine were a few immutable themes:

1. Don't ask questions
2. Do what you are told
3. Even when leadership is wrong, they are right.
4. Etc

Scripture in this case was merely a prop. Waved when useful, ignored or even rejected when not. So, for example, "oneness" in LC parlance actually meant, Obey leadership. Being "in spirit" meant repetitively shouting verses, footnotes, song stanzas, outline bullet points. And so forth. This forum exists because the "real LC" needed to be teased out of its entanglement with scripture.

Back to Acolyte4236 point above. Knowledge of scripture in and of itself doesn't guarantee success in the Christian journey. But it affords a kind of protection, or defense, against shysters like Lee and Hanegraaf, who'd drag us off. And that's a good thing. The journey continues.

[Sons to Glory!]

Good testimony of your experience, Aron - "enjoying God" outside of LSM!

We've brought this up a lot in my ekklesia - I believe we need three things to go on in our walk with Him:

1. 1 on 1 time with the Lord
2. His Word
3. Fellowship with the saints

Without any of these three aspects, before long my ship is headed for the rocks.