Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

[Nuclear]

There's a new article up on shepherdingwords.com titled "Facts Concerning Lily Hsu." Thoughts?

[Freedom]

I don't think that it will ever be possible to know exactly what happened in China or which account of events is the most accurate. I've seen discussion in the past as to whether or not Lily Hsu's account was simply communist propaganda. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I wouldn't know.

That being said, it doesn't escape my notice that these articles being posted on shepherdingwords.com are all authored anonymously. This new article calls into question her credibility saying she didn't have first hand knowledge of everything. Well who is the one calling into question her credibility? Was this person also there? Does this person know for a fact that she didn't have first hand knowledge? If this person was there, why don't they attach their name to the article? Unless they have their own account of what happened in China, they are essentially doing what they accuse Lily Hsu of doing.

[Ohio]

Great points. When I first began to meet with the LC, I bought Angus Kinnear's biography of Nee, "Against the Tide." Immediately upon finding out, an elder told me not to read it, citing some 200 "major errors" in the book.

Says who? No list of errors was ever presented to me. The elder never read the book, and had no first hand knowledge of events, yet he -- with assurance -- willingly passed on what he heard about the book. And who alone could be the source of such a comment? Only W. Lee. How convenient! So only Lee could ever be the source of historical events in China.

Whether or not Dr. Lily Hsu is perfectly accurate on every detail is secondary to me. More important was the decision by the elders in Shanghai to discipline Nee in 1942, long before the Communist takeover. Since Nee had appointed these elders, and Shanghai was Nee's home church, does anybody in their right mind really believe Lee's account that Nee was wrongly disciplined for "living with his mother???"

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Whether or not Dr. Lily Hsu is perfectly accurate on every detail is secondary to me. More important was the decision by the elders in Shanghai to discipline Nee in 1942, long before the Communist takeover. Since Nee had appointed these elders, and Shanghai was Nee's home church, does anybody in their right mind really believe Lee's account that Nee was wrongly disciplined for "living with his mother???"

Yeah, I think understanding Nee and all the things that happened is mostly a matter of just connecting the dots. Even WL's own account of the happenings in China mentions things that would certainly raise eyebrows, and of course, he just glosses over that part of it.

Lily Hsu's account is inconvenient for the LC simply because it doesn't ignore the parts of history that WL told everyone to. Regarding Nee, WL stated "whether he is wrong or right is not my business." That's quite an alarming statement considering that he felt himself qualified to write a biography of Nee. It definitely calls his own credibility into question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Yeah, I think understanding Nee and all the things that happened is mostly a matter of just connecting the dots. Even WL's own account of the happenings in China mentions things that would certainly raise eyebrows, and of course, he just glosses over that part of it.

Lily Hsu's account is inconvenient for the LC simply because it doesn't ignore the parts of history that WL told everyone to. Regarding Nee, WL stated "whether he is wrong or right is not my business." That's quite an alarming statement considering that he felt himself qualified to write a biography of Nee. It definitely calls his own credibility into question.

In the Midwest, we regularly heard similar comments from Titus Chu, e.g. "Brother Lee is my spiritual father, and his mistakes are none of my business." When it comes to the petty things of life, I totally agree, but what do we do when people get hurt? What do we do when crimes are committed?

One of the sisters who got hurt by Philip Lee was from the Cleveland area. In his account, John Ingalls recorded how TC flip-flopped on him overnight after being confronted by Team Lee. Read Ingalls account, "Visits From Titus Chu," dated late September 1988 in the book Speaking The Truth in Love.

For me, this calls TC's own credibility into question. We are not talking about petty things any more. Philip Lee hurt many people. John Ingalls and others came to their defense. Titus Chu tried sitting on the fence until he was forced to pick sides. Witness Lee attacked those ones who exposed the wrong doing at LSM. For whatever reason, TC suppressed his sense of indignation within, and sided with Lee. He then began to attack Ingall's credibility. I have a copy of that letter he wrote with Reetzke of Chicago.

Did TC really maintain his stand that "Brother Lee's mistakes are none of my business." I don't think so. TC made Lee's wrongs his own. TC's standing as a minister was thus compromised. It's no wonder that so many left him after the quarantines brought this past history to light.

Not only did Lee cover for Nee, but TC learned these same bad habits, and covered for Lee's serious failures. It did him no good in the end, however, since BP, RK, and company expelled him from their Recovery Men's Club.

[Nell]

Before I read Hsu's book I was a total skeptic. I couldn't believe that Nee would do such things. Lee & sons yes. Nee, NO!

The more I read, the more I began to think there might be something to it. Her writing style was matter-of-fact. No emotion. No bitterness. She just seemed to be writing what she knew and experienced. It was written in such a way that what she was saying was totally believable. No ranting and raving.

I don't know what she had to gain from telling her story, other than to clear her conscience which was stated in her book, as I recall. By the time I finished reading, I was sickened. Watchman Nee. Of all people. I guess its another lesson on putting people on a pedestal.

I've always believed that truth has a "ring" to it and you know it when you hear it. That bell rang for me when I read Hsu and I believe her story is true. I have long since looked for light and truth from Lee, et al. It's just not there. As for RK, if the light that is in his words be darkness...how great is that darkness.

Nell

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Nell

Before I read Hsu's book I was a total skeptic. I couldn't believe that Nee would do such things. Lee & sons yes. Nee, NO!

The more I read, the more I began to think there might be something to it. Her writing style was matter-of-fact. No emotion. No bitterness. She just seemed to be writing what she knew and experienced. It was written in such a way that what she was saying was totally believable. No ranting and raving.

I don't know what she had to gain from telling her story, other than to clear her conscience which was stated in her book, as I recall. By the time I finished reading, I was sickened. Watchman Nee. Of all people. I guess its another lesson on putting people on a pedestal.


I've always believed that truth has a "ring" to it and you know it when you hear it. That bell rang for me when I read Hsu and I believe her story is true. I have long since looked for light and truth from Lee, et al. It's just not there. As for RK, if the light that is in his words be darkness...how great is that darkness.

I think part of Lee's goal with how he portrayed Nee was for the purpose of establishing that he had been passed the torch from Nee himself. Thus, the view of Nee that people in the LC ended up with was completely skewed from any historical basis. It's no wonder that an account regarding Nee which contradicted the LC narrative would come as such a surprise.

[OBW]

I couldn't believe that Nee would do such things. Lee & sons yes. Nee, NO!

And it should be evident that he was taking care to stop anyone from pointing at his egregious behavior again by returning from his relatively brief exile in the 1940s (at the invitation of Lee) to give those messages that became Authority and Submission and denied anyone the right to make any charge against him again.

In effect, he responded to charges of sexual impropriety against him not with evidence that he was innocent, or with apologies for his failures, but with faux spiritual authority to avoid ever again answering to any man's charges. He thumbed his nose at everyone and demanded that they revere him as the most spiritual person in any room no matter his failures.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the Midwest, we regularly heard similar comments from Titus Chu, e.g. "Brother Lee is my spiritual father, and his mistakes are none of my business." When it comes to the petty things of life, I totally agree, but what do we do when people get hurt? What do we do when crimes are committed?

One of the sisters who got hurt by Philip Lee was from the Cleveland area. In his account, John Ingalls recorded how TC flip-flopped on him overnight after being confronted by Team Lee. Read Ingalls account, "Visits From Titus Chu," dated late September 1988 in the book Speaking The Truth in Love.

For me, this calls TC's own credibility into question. We are not talking about petty things any more. Philip Lee hurt many people. John Ingalls and others came to their defense. Titus Chu tried sitting on the fence until he was forced to pick sides. Witness Lee attacked those ones who exposed the wrong doing at LSM. For whatever reason, TC suppressed his sense of indignation within, and sided with Lee. He then began to attack Ingall's credibility. I have a copy of that letter he wrote with Reetzke of Chicago.

Did TC really maintain his stand that "Brother Lee's mistakes are none of my business." I don't think so. TC made Lee's wrongs his own. TC's standing as a minister was thus compromised. It's no wonder that so many left him after the quarantines brought this past history to light.

Not only did Lee cover for Nee, but TC learned these same bad habits, and covered for Lee's serious failures. It did him no good in the end, however, since BP, RK, and company expelled him from their Recovery Men's Club.

When looking at the situation that the LC is presently confronted with, and how they are responding to it, credibility is really a key issue. Of course, the LC standard tactic is to attack other people's credibility. Anyone who speaks out against the LC has their credibility attacked. They have done it to Lily Hsu now. Their articles on Daystar and Max do the exact same thing.

Amid all the smoke and mirrors, the real question is the credibility of the LSM/DCP/blendeds. In my mind they have not established themselves as people who should be taken seriously. Those who read the articles on shearingwords.com will find all the same old nonsense that have been putting out for years.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Freedom

When looking at the situation that the LC is presently confronted with, and how they are responding to it, credibility is really a key issue. Of course, the LC standard tactic is to attack other people's credibility. Anyone who speaks out against the LC has their credibility attacked. They have done it to Lily Hsu now. Their articles on Daystar and Max do the exact same thing.

Amid all the smoke and mirrors, the real question is the credibility of the LSM/DCP/blendeds. In my mind they have not established themselves as people who should be taken seriously. Those who read the articles on shearingwords.com will find all the same old nonsense that have been putting out for years.

What I wonder is do they really believe the stuff they keep repeating in defense of all things WL/LC, or is there a nefarious motivation - keeping the LSM kingdom together at all costs?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

When looking at the situation that the LC is presently confronted with, and how they are responding to it, credibility is really a key issue. Of course, the LC standard tactic is to attack other people's credibility. Anyone who speaks out against the LC has their credibility attacked. They have done it to Lily Hsu now. Their articles on Daystar and Max do the exact same thing.

Amid all the smoke and mirrors, the real question is the credibility of the LSM/DCP/blendeds. In my mind they have not established themselves as people who should be taken seriously. Those who read the articles on shearingwords.com will find all the same old nonsense that have been putting out for years.

The website puts out "facts" about Daystar Motor Homes. Okay, what about these "facts" from someone there, who was personally recruited by Lee to work on the project? Shouldn't these be included as well?

Originally Posted by Don Rutledge

Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.

Isn't it also a fact that son Timothy was President? Isn't there conflict of interests here?

More facts on Daystar, including Lee's personal assessment:

Originally Posted by Don Rutledge

Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit. In 1975, we were having a conference in Dallas. Before the meetings, we would pray in the large home on our property and then would walk across the parking lot to the large new hall we had just built. One evening I was walking with Brother Lee. He stopped, turned to me and then put his arm around my shoulder. (Never before and never since have I seen him embrace a brother. Thus, I realized he was about to tell me something very serious. He told me that he had made a terrible mistake with Daystar. He said that if he saw Brother Nee he would not know what to say since Brother Nee had warned him not to mix the church with financial matters or business. He then told me that he had once told Watchman Nee that he was not following him (Watchman Nee), but rather was following the truth and vision that Brother Nee taught. Furthermore, that he (Witness Lee) would not follow Watchman Nee if Brother Nee left the vision, but he (Brother Lee) would continue to follow the vision. He then looked me straight in the eye and charged me, “Brother Don, if I leave the vision do not follow me, but follow the vision.” I was a little speechless but I did manage to return the embrace and assure Brother Lee that I would remain true to the vision and the truth.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

There's a new article up on shepherdingwords.com titled "Facts Concerning Lily Hsu." Thoughts?

My main thought reading the article was "What an incomprehensible mess".

Also, "no one would ever describe this as 'shepherding' anyone".

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

My main thought reading the article was "What an incomprehensible mess".

Also, "no one would ever describe this as 'shepherding' anyone".

Trapped

Interesting comments.

Reminded me of the website LSM/DCP developed during the Midwest quarantines called "afaithfulword." It actually had nothing to do with God's faithful word. It was all about Lee's teachings.