Awoken after 38 Years

[aron]

The LSM/DCP/Blendeds say that Jo Casteel and Annie McArdle didn't follow Matthew 18 principles (private fellowship first) so the public complaints are invalid.

But John Ingalls and Steve Isitt already tried Matthew 18 with these guys, along with Bill Mallon, Max Rapoport, the Anaheim elder and many others. So it's time to tell the church. Matthew 18 principles dutifully came and went decades ago. Tell it now from the rooftops. Tell it again and again until the light comes.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM/DCP/Blendeds say that Jo Casteel and Annie McArdle didn't follow Matthew 18 principles (private fellowship first) so the public complaints are invalid.

But John Ingalls and Steve Isitt already tried Matthew 18 with these guys, along with Bill Mallon, Max Rapoport, the Anaheim elder and many others. So it's time to tell the church. Matthew 18 principles dutifully came and went decades ago. Tell it now from the rooftops. Tell it again and again until the light comes.

What difference was made if they had a private fellowship first?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

What difference was made if they had a private fellowship first?

Private fellowship first is recommended (commanded) by the Lord as a kind of protection or safeguard against stumbling and shame. With LSM, repeated attempts to privately and quietly address real concerns are met with either indifference or antagonism.

When the brothers, for instance, told WL about what his "New Way" was doing to the churches, smothering any real move of the Holy Spirit, he replied that they were "pouring cold water" on him. His system simply wasn't built to take in negative feedback. So this system should be exposed for what it is. It is a man-made, man-exalting system that turned programme enforcers into bullies, church members into unthinking automatons, and ejected how many thousands who could no longer take the disconnect and dispiriting abuse?

It's worth considering the "churn rate", or turnover, this group incurs. I suspect even the Mormons do a better job of retaining their YP. In my old locality there are maybe 3 left out of probably 65 or so, from 30 years ago. Maybe 4 or 5 are "serving the ministry" somewhere. Another 15 or 20 are meeting in other local churches. Many of the rest are not even practicing Christian any more. A few are meeting with other Christian groups.

What's the human cost of growing up in this system? The time for "covering" is long since gone.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Private fellowship first is recommended (commanded) by the Lord as a kind of protection or safeguard against stumbling and shame. With LSM, repeated attempts to privately and quietly address real concerns are met with either indifference or antagonism.

W. Lee and the Blendeds used the matter of "private fellowship" to protect or "cover" their perpetrators and send the victims to other cities (forced migration.) For decades LC leadership took advantage of Matt 18 commands, not to find justice for the victims as the Lord desired, but to protect their system.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

W. Lee and the Blendeds used the matter of "private fellowship" to protect or "cover" their perpetrators and send the victims to other cities (forced migration.) For decades LC leadership took advantage of Matt 18 commands, not to find justice for the victims as the Lord desired, but to protect their system.

Hypocrites. I went to have private fellowship with EM over 30 years after his apology to PL. His response "he didn't want to deal with this now". They feel that they can just ignore "private fellowship" forever. If you remember, the last question that Drake was asked before he left this forum for good was how long should we wait before we tell it to the world.

I felt that the NT obligated us to deal with this before partaking of the Lord's table. Drake promised to get back to me on that.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 1Cor 11:27

21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. 23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, 24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Matt 5:21-24

Having a "gift before the altar" would not simply be referring to the Lord's table, but any time someone would speak in the meeting. According to WL's interpretation of Leviticus the various offerings are typified in our sharing in the meeting.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

It's worth considering the "churn rate", or turnover, this group incurs. I suspect even the Mormons do a better job of retaining their YP. In my old locality there are maybe 3 left out of probably 65 or so, from 30 years ago. Maybe 4 or 5 are "serving the ministry" somewhere. Another 15 or 20 are meeting in other local churches. Many of the rest are not even practicing Christian any more. A few are meeting with other Christian groups.

What's the human cost of growing up in this system? The time for "covering" is long since gone.

I agree. the churn rate is the barometer on how they are healthy. My country, South Korea, has gone through a "high" turnover rate.

[Nell]

Matthew 18:15-17 English Standard Version (ESV)

If Your Brother Sins Against You
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Did RK go to Jo in private to discuss her “fault” before openly speaking against her? You can’t have it both ways.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Did RK go to Jo in private to discuss her “fault” before openly speaking against her? You can’t have it both ways.

Good point. Did BP and or WL go to JA and SR and "privately express concerns" in order to "cover the sisters" or did they hold a kangaroo court, where accusation and judgment were simultaneously and openly proclaimed? I haven't read the Thread of Gold testimony by JA recently but it might be good to look back and see if they followed Matthew 18 themselves.

Update: I just looked and it corroborates my memory that WL & BP & Co operated very much apart from biblical guidance.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Sandee said that at first she could not understand why "Witness" did not just speak privately to her and ask that she and the other sisters stop sitting together in the meetings. She was around him constantly, as she often helped the Lee's with family matters, errands, trips to the doctor, etc., so it would have been an easy thing for him to do.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Good point. Did BP and or WL go to JA and SR and "privately express concerns" in order to "cover the sisters" or did they hold a kangaroo court, where accusation and judgment were simultaneously and openly proclaimed? I haven't read the Thread of Gold testimony by JA recently but it might be good to look back and see if they followed Matthew 18 themselves.

Both Jane A. and Sandee R. testified how shocked they were to be publicly shamed and castigated for some supposed "sister's rebellion" which neither of them, nor any other sister, had the slightest inkling of involvement. Then years later we discover the real motivations for these manufactured "sister's rebellions" of early summer 1977.

• Sandee R. was publicly shamed by WL in Anaheim because her husband Max R. had the courage to confront Philip Lee in a restaurant regarding his late night sexual escapades at the LSM offices on Ball Road while under construction. It was no more than retaliation by WL for exposing corruption within the Lee family. (Ten years later this exact scenario would be repeated.)
• In a simultaneous copy-cat move by Benson Philips in Houston, Jane A. and two other sisters were excoriated for encouraging other sisters to read inspiring biographies of notable Christians. Benson considered such actions to be a threat to the ministry. They would thus define "rebellion" by whether your reading material was exclusively from LSM.

Funny how the Midwest and Brazil would later be excommunicated under identical circumstances.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Nell

Did RK go to Jo in private to discuss her “fault” before openly speaking against her? You can’t have it both ways.

Good point, I was booted out of the meeting hall in NY by an usher telling me they didn't want to talk to me. Hypocrites.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM/DCP/Blendeds say that Jo Casteel and Annie McArdle didn't follow Matthew 18 principles (private fellowship first) so the public complaints are invalid.

But John Ingalls and Steve Isitt already tried Matthew 18 with these guys, along with Bill Mallon, Max Rapoport, the Anaheim elder and many others. So it's time to tell the church. Matthew 18 principles dutifully came and went decades ago. Tell it now from the rooftops. Tell it again and again until the light comes.

Jane Anderson is another who tried to apply all the principles of Matt 18.

These characters are Gentiles. Treat them accordingly.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jane Anderson is another who tried to apply all the principles of Matt 18.

So ironic that they're now appealing to due process when for decades their due process was, "Brother Lee is always right." It didn't matter how many witnesses lined up, per 2 Cor 13:1 (Deut 19:15). I remember a newspaper story circa 1989 where WL told the reporter that PL didn't want to talk about it. PL had "enjoyed" the serving sisters but now didn't want consequences... if Maximum Brother doesn't want to face the music, the band stops playing. But those days are over now. Wake up - the sun is shining. "Rise, sleeper, the day is far advanced". LSM needs to realise that "the age has turned", to use their terms. A new day has dawned, and the saints are going on... they can come along or be left behind.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM/DCP/Blendeds say that Jo Casteel and Annie McArdle didn't follow Matthew 18 principles (private fellowship first) so the public complaints are invalid.

Where did you hear this?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where did you hear this?

On Friday, Jo Casteel posted on her FB page:

Joe Davis is a Director on the Board of Directors for LSM (see attached pic). He is also a Co-Worker high up in the LSM hierarchy. See here where he signed his name representing the regions, Europe and the UK... Is this not a conflict of interest that a board member of LSM is giving talks on LSM continuing on? He conveniently categorizes my account and others accounts as full of untruths, gossip, unhealthy words, idle and deceptive words, and rumors.

He also states that since the Matt 18 principle of fellowship was not followed (in his opinion) that the accounts are invalid. In Annie’s case, she did fellowship and the brothers covered it up. According to Matthew 18, if the elders don’t hear you- it’s time to tell it to the church. Isn’t this what Annie [McArdle] is doing? I did attempt to fellowship many times over the problems I saw in the church. It never went anywhere. I also felt it was time to “tell it to the church.” And for the record, I now believe “the church” is much larger than just the Lord’s recovery.

Joe Davis said, “we should always, always cover the brothers.” I’d like to see this principle in the New Testament. According to the Lord’s recovery definition, when Paul wrote a letter to the church in Corinth exposing what he did, Paul himself was “uncovering the brothers.” Why aren’t they pointing out how awful Paul was according to their definition? Where is the line between covering minor sins and covering abuses? Unfortunately, they are drawing a hard and ugly line right now by saying in context of abuses “always, always cover the brothers.”

Thoughts on this- is this ok? Is this even legal? Is this transformation? Should abuses always, always be covered? I’m shocked to hear a LSM Board member go on record saying “always, always cover the brothers.”

There are also links and photos but I didn't include them here. This group's leadership consistently leadership ignored Matthew 18 principles, and when others tried to use Matthew 18 principles and fellowship privately, spanning decades, they rebuffed every one. Now, a former member posts a letter on FB and they say, "Ignore it, they didn't follow Matthew 18".... ??

Watching this group's leaders, both current and former, I conclude that either A) there's no God and these scam artists are just trying to prop up their book publishing kingdom (Hey, everyone needs to make a living), or B) there is a God and these scam artists trying to prop up their book publishing kingdom must answer for selectively applying scripture to everyone but themselves.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I was booted out of the meeting hall in NY by an usher telling me they didn't want to talk to me. Hypocrites.

The best quote by WL was to the newspaper reporter, telling them his son PL "doesn't want to talk about it." No kidding. I get that. But was anyone except PL and WL able to exercise such prerogatives in the LR? And if not, who gave those two the exemption card?

[Cal]

This song and dance is just beyond old and tiresome. Someone criticizes the LR, and automatically that person is evil or otherwise screwed up.

LR people! When are you going to realize that this is total and complete BS?

You are being used and abused. You are being robbed of your true destiny in God's Kingdom. Do not believe the lies anymore. The emperor has no clothes. There is no "Lord's Recovery." What you are in is nothing more than a movement which has been fortunate enough, like many, many others, to experience God's grace from time to time. But no amount of past grace excuses the things the LR has done, hides and blames and tries to destroy the messengers for.

This has gone on long enough, and it is time to say "ENOUGH!" It's time. Stop making excuses, and do what is right. Rise up!

[HERn]

Dear Jo Casteel lost her dear husband yesterday. I don't know anything more than what I read on FB. When one member grieves all members grieve.

[UntoHim]

This thread will be closed for the time being.
Please refrain from commenting or discussing the Casteel situation on any other thread.