What's it like in ex-LSM controlled local churches?

[HERn]

Thought I would start a new thread on what's it like to be in a fellowship that is no longer under the control of LSM and the being blended brothers? My conversation with StG on another thread prompted me. I wonder how many ex-LSM local churches there are?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Thought I would start a new thread on what's it like to be in a fellowship that is no longer under the control of LSM and the being blended brothers? My conversation with StG on another thread prompted me. I wonder how many ex-LSM local churches there are?

• the church formerly known as The Church in Rosemead
• The Church in Moses Lake
• Westminster Church Assembly
• many Great Lake area churches that parted with LSM
• a church in Accra, Ghana were Ransford Ackah met prior to his passing
• a church in Scottsdale, Arizona

I had only met with Westminster Church Assembly once in 2010. Format reminded me of pre-1987 local churches.

[stillseekingtruth]

Originally Posted by HERn

Thought I would start a new thread on what's it like to be in a fellowship that is no longer under the control of LSM and the being blended brothers? My conversation with StG on another thread prompted me. I wonder how many ex-LSM local churches there are?

In the GLA, it resembled those churches that appeal to young people. There was 'rock' type music and it got realy crazy. At one conferences, the young people swarmed the door to get to the front row. There was a play where they ahd somone act like a "Santa Claus" Jesus. Everytime the 'believer' needed something, this "Jesus" would walk by and give it to him. What a crock .God gives and God takes away. He knows for what we have need, not what we want.

They gave a message about endurnce. The brothers chose about 5 brothers from different localities to stand in a bucket of ice water. Whoever endured to the end won an x-box or whatever the lastest game console was. I have 2 problems with that: 1. They chose all brothers (statiscally who plays video games more?) and 2. Why would you give away something so worldy to represent endurance in Christ? We need to forsake all for Christ. It was a mess of confusion. A young sister told me about her abusive mother, how she ws dragged across the floor by her hair and beaten on a regular basis. The brothers blew it off as Chinese culture.

They had something called Mountain Top and Ignite. It was basicallly rock concerts and soulish 'fun' in the name of spirituality. They did that thing where they had a 'contemporary service' and then the more up-to-date exciting service. I was in the midst of being black-balled at the time. I remember also, TC was mocking the SSOT calling it the Summer School of What what. He called us second generation, lazy, lousy, and sloppy. He also called for new songs to be written. That was about the time I wsn't allowed to meet with the Chinese speaking saints without permisson. I'm not Chinese, but I wanted to learn the language. I was assigned where to go and I couldn't deviate without a letter. There was a lot of overt control. I was also in meetings where we would read books from mainstream Christiantiy about how to gain young people by methods and ways. I spoke up and was quickly shut down.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Terry

• the church formerly known as The Church in Rosemead
• The Church in Moses Lake
• Westminster Church Assembly
• many Great Lake area churches that parted with LSM
• a church in Accra, Ghana were Ransford Ackah met prior to his passing
• a church in Scottsdale, Arizona

I had only met with Westminster Church Assembly once in 2010. Format reminded me of pre-1987 local churches.

Add to that Durham, NC.

I am aware of "cross-pollination" with many of these gatherings, which is always good!

What can I say about Scottsdale ekklesia other than:
"This is my rest forever - here will I dwell,
for the Lord has chosen Zion,
He has required it for His habitation.
He will abundantly bless her provision,
He will will satisfy her poor with bread.
He will clothe her priest with salvation,
and her saints shall shout aloud for joy!"

Okay, that just came out . . . but much truth there! The gatherings are open and any can testify of their own experience of Christ. What can I say - This is quite good. 5-6 brothers rotate giving a message on Sunday, which is also really good (I truly don't have a favorite - they're all good.)

There are three brothers taking the lead. Each one of them is just sweet. (yes, I'm saying that about another brother . . .) I've said it several times on here that I've never experienced excessive overt authority in 20+ years here, or even covert authority. Everyone is free to pursue the Lord and know His Anointing within.

Several who have visited here have called our little group, "The Singing Church" - we do enjoy our singing! Songs are culled from all over the place. Usually there is just a guitar and a piano. The songs always have a lot of meaning, and there are often testimonies relating the experience of Christ from the songs.

Various smaller groups meet throughout the week. I participate with a handful of bros on Tuesday evenings, where we fellowship anything concerning us, then pray for one another and then go out to eat. There's a larger brother breakfast each Thursday morning, with no agenda, which attracts ones from various other groups. But boy, we're almost always amazed how the Spirit flows and speaks there among all of us!

So that's the 30,000' view of Scottsdale Church (I think that's the "official" name). I am brought to tears thinking how faithful the Lord has been to bring me here - and keep me here for over 20 years! I can't take credit - He is my one boast! THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What can I say about Scottsdale ekklesia other than:
...

StG, I'm curious. Do you guys over there in Scottsdale still retain doctrines of Nee and Lee?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

StG, I'm curious. Do you guys over there in Scottsdale still retain doctrines of Nee and Lee?

I thought I'd addressed that already.

So I would say some of us are still "recovering" from The Recovery, but not really sure exactly how to answer this. Concerning having WL doctrines, not actively doing this at all. (the phrase comes up sometimes about "not throwing the baby out with the bathwater," so everyone's pretty aware of the WL errors) Nee's "The Normal Christian Life" comes up very occasionally, but as far as any set "doctrines" I'd have to say no.

I don't know if this will help answer the question, but some saints here recently started a lending library in one of the property buildings. It already has hundreds of donated books from all over the Christian spectrum. Last I saw there were just a couple WL books (forget the titles) and perhaps 3-4 Nee books.

Below is copied from the SC website, and this probably constitutes as much of an "official" statement that I could come up with from here:

What We Believe

1. The Bible is the complete divine revelation of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. God is both One and Triune.
2. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit simultaneously coexist and mutually indwell one another from eternity to eternity.
3. The Son of God became incarnate as the man, Jesus of Nazareth, born of a virgin, that He might be our Redeemer, Savior and Lord.
4. This Jesus is a genuine and complete man, Who was born without sin and lived a sinless life on earth, fully dependent upon God the Father, to make Him known to all mankind.
5. Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins and shed His blood for the accomplishment of our redemption. Eternal salvation is based on faith in Him alone and is not based on any good work of our own.
6. Jesus Christ, after being buried for three days, resurrected bodily from the dead and ascended to the heavens, where He is both Lord and Christ, seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
7. After Christ's ascension, He poured out the Holy Spirit and baptized into one Body, those who have believed in Him.
8. The Holy Spirit is operating to convict sinners, to regenerate believers in Christ, to baptize them with power for service, and to indwell them for Christ to be their life, in order to build them up as the Body of Christ, the Church.
9. All genuinely born-again believers are members of Christ's one Body and fellowship is to be enjoyed with one another irrespective of differences.
10. At the end of the age, Christ will come back to rapture those who have believed in Him, to execute His judgments, to set up His millennial kingdom, and to ultimately usher in a new heaven and a new earth for eternity.

Whatest thou thinkest - are we overly tainted with TLR?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Whatest thou thinkest - are we overly tainted with TLR?

Before I give you an answer, can I ask if active members of Titus Chu fellowship with your location?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Before I give you an answer, can I ask if active members of Titus Chu fellowship with your location?

No. Most everyone here is from the NW or Arizona. (Scottsdale is about 2000 miles from Ohio . . .)

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

No. Most everyone here is from the NW or Arizona. (Scottsdale is about 2000 miles from Ohio . . .)

I'm aware of the distance .

The term you used was "cross-pollination". I assumed you meant you get visitors coming in from other ex-LSM churches.

Is that what you were referring to by cross-pollination?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'm aware of the distance .
The term you used was "cross-pollination". I assumed you meant you get visitors coming in from other ex-LSM churches.
Is that what you were referring to by cross-pollination?

Yup! (and occasionally we'll get a LSM family member who comes to town, but they almost always tend to keep us at some distance . . . often not taking the table with us)

So tell me tell me tell me - did we pass the sniff test? OR

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So tell me tell me tell me - did we pass the sniff test? OR

A few more questions if you don't mind;

Does your church still adhere to the ground doctrine?

Also, what's the general consensus toward Titus managed GLA churches? Do you receive visitors from them?

Finally, concerning #6 of your statement of faith, do you believe Christ ascended bodily and exists now in heaven in a physical body?

[Sons to Glory!]

Interesting questions. My responses.

Originally Posted by Jo S

A few more questions if you don't mind;

Does your church still adhere to the ground doctrine?
No, and not much is said about it. In fact, I've never heard anyone here speak along those lines. So I would have to again say no. Older people here are certainly aware if it from LC days 30+ years ago, but in the few conversations I've had the consensus has been that this doctrine is (ironically) divisive, so not of Christ. My opinion is we recognize all believers as being members in His body, and to harbor or practice any division is just silly.

Also, what's the general consensus toward Titus managed GLA churches? Do you receive visitors from them?
I've never heard anyone say anything much about Titus or GLA churches. In fact this week I just figured out what GLA even meant! Some brothers have visited here from Ohio quite some time ago (Ohio - you've been here, right?), but not aware of any recently.

Finally, concerning #6 of your statement of faith, do you believe Christ ascended bodily and exists now in heaven in a physical body?
Hmmm - never gave this much thought. Since He was resurrected with a body, and don't know why He would ascend without it! I would have to look up some scripture regarding this.

Anything else?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting questions. My responses. Anything else?

It's ok, that's enough. Thanks StG.

This is going to be harsh so brace yourself.

Scripture has no teaching that says to "accept all those that are born-again" as per #9 of your statement of faith. It's something that's very hard to discern but we are told not to yoke with those that don't bring the proper biblical teachings as taught by the Apostles and to test and expose those who falsely claim to be apostles.

With that said unless your Church has renounced Watchman Nee/Witness Lee teachings (including the Ground of Locality and modalism), marked them as false teachers, and are not yoked with those in the LSM and GLA that do not bring the whole of the gospel teaching then you are still very much a part of the Lord's Recovery.

I know a few things about your church that I won't get into but from what I do know I have this theory that there are no independent Local Churches that were previously affiliated with Nee/Lee completely free from either LSM's or GLA's grip, that is, unless they've done the above.

That about sums up my answer.

[Sons to Glory!]

This seems like a legalistic yoke of distraction from Christ at best! Anybody else think there should be a public repudiation of all things WN, WL & LSM? (although the group now in Scottsdale left affiliation with the LC some 30 years ago, and that may have actually happened then . . .)
-

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This seems like a legalistic yoke of distraction from Christ at best! Anybody else think there should be a public repudiation of all things WN, WL & LSM? (although the group now in Scottsdale left affiliation with the LC some 30 years ago, and that may have actually happened then . . .)

Watchman Nee too mingled with various professing Christians without much discernment. It's the doctrines he eclectically collected from these sources that eventually resulted in the Lord's Recovery.

So in the context of the Local Churches, it's not legalistic...it's quite necessary.

And as to the last part. Sorry to say the answer is; no, it hasn't happened yet otherwise you'd be aware of it and your church would not be entertaining current LR members. At best it seems your church has one foot in and one foot out.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Watchman Nee too mingled with various professing Christians without much discernment. It's the doctrines he eclectically collected from these sources that eventually resulted in the Lord's Recovery.

So in the context of the Local Churches, it's not legalistic...it's quit necessary.

And as to the last part. Sorry to say the answer is; no, it hasn't happened yet otherwise you'd be aware of it and your church would not be entertaining current LR members. At best it seems your church has one foot in and one foot out.

I guess we'll put a big sign on the front door: "ANYBODY MEETING WITH THE LOCAL CHURCHES - OR HAS NOT UTTERLY & PUBLICLY REPUDIATED ALL THEIR DOCTRINES AND PRACTICES - IS NOT WELCOME & STAY OUT!"

Honestly Jo, this seems to me to be by definition a witch hunt. You looked and looked and finally found something you can categorize as whatever. You are hurt by LSM and I get that, but don't allow your unrealistic expectation to put ridiculous requirements on other blood bought believers!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I guess we'll put a big sign on the front door: "ANYBODY MEETING WITH THE LOCAL CHURCHES - OR HAS NOT UTTERLY & PUBLICLY REPUDIATED ALL THEIR DOCTRINES AND PRACTICES - IS NOT WELCOME & STAY OUT!"
Honestly Jo, this seems to me to be by definition a witch hunt. You looked and looked and finally found something you can categorize as whatever. You are hurt by LSM and I get that, but don't allow your unrealistic expectation to put ridiculous requirements on other blood bought believers!

StG,

If I continue in victimhood, as you implied, I'd have an opposite reaction and tell you contrary to what LSM teaches (which ironically is what you're liberal bent toward fellowship does). LSM teaches that you should be seperate from those that do not agree with their teachings. I'm sharing scripture that says you should be separate from those that do not agree with Christ's or the apostles' teachings.

BTW, my experience was with GLA not LSM.

You asked me a question and I've tried to be as honest as I could have with an answer yet somehow that turned into a character attack. I hope you don't take my answer as an attack or a witch-hunt. I'm afraid it would just be used as justification...

You can fellowship with whomever you'd like and your church can freely do whatever they choose to do but just know, as with GLA, you're still very much a part of the Lord's Recovery through personal and doctrinal association. Whether you're orphaned or not does not matter, by relation, you're still a part of the family so to speak.

Renounciation should never be a prerequisite for meeting or something imposed on an individual (that would be legalism) BUT if you truly want to be independant of the Lord's Recovery it should be the general public stance your church takes otherwise you just risk of repeating history and building off the same ground Nee did with his liberal fellowshipping.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

StG,

You can fellowship with whomever you'd like and your church can freely do whatever they choose to do but just know, as with GLA, you're still very much a part of the Lord's Recovery through personal and doctrinal association. Whether you're orphaned or not does not matter, you're still a part of the family so to speak.

Renounciation should never be a prerequisite for meeting or something imposed on an individual (that would be legalism) BUT if you truly want to be independant of the Lord's Recovery it should be the general public stance your church takes otherwise you just risk of repeating history and building off the same ground Nee did with his liberal fellowshipping.

Well, lets do this - let's have some others chime in if they're willing to do so. Should be interesting, and maybe I'll even learn something liberating.

Again, I think it's an extreme and overly legalistic thing you propose, but I will also ask some of the ones around Scottsdale about all this . . .

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

In the GLA, it resembled those churches that appeal to young people. There was 'rock' type music and it got realy crazy. At one conferences, the young people swarmed the door to get to the front row. There was a play where they ahd somone act like a "Santa Claus" Jesus. Everytime the 'believer' needed something, this "Jesus" would walk by and give it to him. What a crock .God gives and God takes away. He knows for what we have need, not what we want.

They gave a message about endurnce. The brothers chose about 5 brothers from different localities to stand in a bucket of ice water. Whoever endured to the end won an x-box or whatever the lastest game console was. I have 2 problems with that: 1. They chose all brothers (statiscally who plays video games more?) and 2. Why would you give away something so worldy to represent endurance in Christ? We need to forsake all for Christ. It was a mess of confusion. A young sister told me about her abusive mother, how she ws dragged across the floor by her hair and beaten on a regular basis. The brothers blew it off as Chinese culture.

They had something called Mountain Top and Ignite. It was basicallly rock concerts and soulish 'fun' in the name of spirituality. They did that thing where they had a 'contemporary service' and then the more up-to-date exciting service. I was in the midst of being black-balled at the time. I remember also, TC was mocking the SSOT calling it the Summer School of What what. He called us second generation, lazy, lousy, and sloppy. He also called for new songs to be written. That was about the time I wsn't allowed to meet with the Chinese speaking saints without permisson. I'm not Chinese, but I wanted to learn the language. I was assigned where to go and I couldn't deviate without a letter. There was a lot of overt control. I was also in meetings where we would read books from mainstream Christiantiy about how to gain young people by methods and ways. I spoke up and was quickly shut down.

It's clear you didnt personally like what was done in the GLA. Your description sounds like how most people in the local church talk negatively about any other church or denomination.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It's ok, that's enough. Thanks StG.

This is going to be harsh so brace yourself.

Scripture has no teaching that says to "accept all those that are born-again" as per #9 of your statement of faith. It's something that's very hard to discern but we are told not to yoke with those that don't bring the proper biblical teachings as taught by the Apostles and to test and expose those who falsely claim to be apostles.

Sure it does.

Romans 14 for starters.

SonsToGlory, don't back down so quickly to this troll. He's hijacking another tread.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well, lets do this - let's have some others chime in if they're willing to do so. Should be interesting, and maybe I'll even learn something liberating.
Again, I think it's an extreme and overly legalistic thing you propose, but I will also ask some of the ones around Scottsdale about all this . . .

If I met with any of the churches listed in the beginning of this thread, I would accept all Christians, but not Jo S.

You are right, Jo S is on a witchhunt. We have seen a number of them on the forum. He is just as dangerous to your faith as the Blendeds' nonsense.

He definitely reminds me of GV Wigram and other Darby-Exclusive thugs who ran around with their "Hate George Muller Billy Clubs" going into various assemblies rooting out "Open" concepts. They would rather destroy the whole church than have one person in the church who felt Muller's Orphanages were of the Lord. Reminds me of the old USSR, which would rather put 10 innocent guys in prison, than have one guilty criminal walking the street.

[stillseekingtruth]

Originally Posted by Hannah

It's clear you didnt personally like what was done in the GLA. Your description sounds like how most people in the local church talk negatively about any other church or denomination.

That’s because it was how they talked about it. The denomination I’m in doesn’t promote such things as rock concerts or ‘worldly’ means to gain people.either way, I don’t care much how other people worship or what they do in their meetings. I just want to be where the Lord wants. To be honest, I have a very bitter taste in my mouth about ‘church.’

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Hannah

It's clear you didnt personally like what was done in the GLA. Your description sounds like how most people in the local church talk negatively about any other church or denomination.

I heard a story about how some people in a tribe in Africa were saved by the preaching of missionaries. Soon after in one of the worship services the missionaries had some kind of music band playing along for the service. None of the newly saved people sang or wanted to participate. After, the missionaries asked them why they did not join in. The new ones asked the missionaries in return, why do you call the demons with your music and drums like we used to do before we got saved?....The tribe was not in the local church.

[UntoHim]

StG, Ohio and others.

I don't think you're being fair to Jo S here. Yes, he has come on pretty strong with his recommendation for former LC/LSM churches to totally repudiate everything Lee/LC/LSM. But I think if you re-read this it may give us a clearer understanding where he is coming from:

Originally Posted by Jo S

You can fellowship with whomever you'd like and your church can freely do whatever they choose to do but just know, as with GLA, you're still very much a part of the Lord's Recovery through personal and doctrinal association. Whether you're orphaned or not does not matter, by relation, you're still a part of the family so to speak.

These don't sound like the words of an Internet troll, but of someone who is genuinely concerned for any local church assembly that has come out of a dysfunctional church group such as the Local Church of Witness Lee. He has some recent experience of this, so give him some credit for posting what he has in good faith. Witch hunt? Just because you don't agree with what he has posted or is coming on too strong doesn't mean that he's on a witch hunt. Give me some credit as well - I don't allow trolling or witch hunts around here. I also don't like to see the flaming and baiting of other forum members.

Let's make our arguments against the ideas and contentions of other posters and not against the poster themselves. (aka ad hominem)
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I don't think you're being fair to Jo S here. Yes, he has come on pretty strong with his recommendation for former LC/LSM churches to totally repudiate everything Lee/LC/LSM. But I think if you re-read this it may give us a clearer understanding where he is coming from:

I didn't think he was being fair to StG.

But, at your request, I will give him lots of space, that is, until StG asks for help again.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I didn't think he was being fair to StG.
But, at your request, I will give him lots of space, that is, until StG asks for help again.

So Ohio, you've been to the Scottsdale gathering, right? What was the Spirit's flavor here?

And Jo, we welcome you back to this discussion (in case you've been watching from the sideline). We love all the saints!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So Ohio, you've been to the Scottsdale gathering, right? What was the Spirit's flavor here?

And Jo, we welcome you back to this discussion (in case you've been watching from the sideline). We love all the saints!

Years ago I met with the church in Phoenix when Dick Ingram was there.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Years ago I met with the church in Phoenix when Dick Ingram was there.

Oh, I thought you came to the Scottsdale assembly about 15 or so years ago, with John (I think that's his name) perhaps, but I guess not.

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

That’s because it was how they talked about it. The denomination I’m in doesn’t promote such things as rock concerts or ‘worldly’ means to gain people.either way, I don’t care much how other people worship or what they do in their meetings. I just want to be where the Lord wants. To be honest, I have a very bitter taste in my mouth about ‘church.’

I understand and know bitterness. My heart is with yours.

Churches use all kinds of methods. Sometimes they miss the mark and other times it's just right. Then of course our own preference comes into play nd that's OK too, IMHO.

Jesus was radical in his day too.

I was raised in the GLA, cleveland specifically. I rememeber the remarks TC made about the YP. I was a YP in Anaheim, also, and heard similar negative remarks about both the YP and the serving ones in Cleveland. I know several who took the lead with MT Top and Ignite were desperate for the YP because they were leaving in droves, ,not just leaving church but also a faith. The standard LsM approved SSOT for many was not leading us to christ. There were so dynamic salvation those summers and real experiences of christ and for some church kids it was the first of their lives. The first summer of the gospel odyssey 80 people got saved. An excited young college brother shared that at the summer training and he was told it didnt matter because they didnt join the local church. YP who didnt care much about God became interested and began seeking, some for the first time. It was in part because of these "worldly" practices.

Personally, I didnt really want much to do with it, for a myriad of reasons, one being that I was heading out the local church door.

Ultimately we each have to follow where there is life and peace.
In love,

Hannah

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Years ago I met with the church in Phoenix when Dick Ingram was there.

I knew Dick when he and his family were in San Diego. I liked them. I really liked his wife Ruth who has passed away.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

StG, Ohio and others.

I don't think you're being fair to Jo S here. Yes, he has come on pretty strong with his recommendation for former LC/LSM churches to totally repudiate everything Lee/LC/LSM. But I think if you re-read this it may give us a clearer understanding where he is coming from:
These don't sound like the words of an Internet troll, but of someone who is genuinely concerned for any local church assembly that has come out of a dysfunctional church group such as the Local Church of Witness Lee. He has some recent experience of this, so give him some credit for posting what he has in good faith. Witch hunt? Just because you don't agree with what he has posted or is coming on too strong doesn't mean that he's on a witch hunt. Give me some credit as well - I don't allow trolling or witch hunts around here. I also don't like to see the flaming and baiting of other forum members.

Let's make our arguments against the ideas and contentions of other posters and not against the poster themselves. (aka ad hominem)
-

Thanks UntoHim. You may have implied it already by "LC" but I'd like to make clear that grouping should also include Nee, Chu, and GLA as that's where my experience lies.

I do understand what members of the Local Churches have been through. I've not only had a taste of it myself but through other life experiences I know what it's like to have been controlled and manipulated mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I may not have been in your shoes, but I got a pretty worn out pair myself. With that said I won't hold Ohio and others to their reactions toward the stance I take against the Local Churches.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure it does.

Romans 14 for starters.

SonsToGlory, don't back down so quickly to this troll. He's hijacking another tread.

I'm glad you bought this up, Ohio. I'll ignore the troll comment but I will address Romans 14.

Romans 14 along with Hebrews 10:25 are scriptures taken out of context and misused by high control groups in order to guilt member from leaving their groups.

Romans 14 is talking about those weak in the faith. It has nothing to do with born-again believers. You can have faith in Christ yet not be sealed by the Holy Spirit, Apollos was one example. However, that's besides the point. Paul's speaking against not meeting with members of the faith over more frivolous things like what kind of foods they eat or days they observe. It would be silly to disfellowship over such small things but when it comes to weightier matters of the faith, scripture is clear not to yoke with those that misconstrue the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The last thing I'd want to do is seperate friends or families from each other. If it were possible I'd uproot the distructive and heretical doctrines taught by such groups and leave all the relationships in tact. Yet I understand that's not always how things work but that remains my heart.

Greg and Jo Casteel, for example, left knowing full well that many relationships were going to suffer but it's something they had to do it, not only for them and their family's wellbeing, but for the hope that they would be able reach out to those still caught up in the lies that once ensnared them. This is my heart as well and I pray I'm not hypocritical in my judgement of the Lord's Recovery.

My hope is that people turn away from insidious control groups and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ. But I also understand that when specifically dealing with such groups complete and public repudiation of their false apostles, false doctrines, and harmful practices is necessary otherwise you just risk getting ensnared once again, perhaps in a different guise. I also understand that this shouldn't be forced on anyone but should be a work of the Lord in a believer's heart.

The Lord's Recovery, and I don't say this lightly, is no different than groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, or any other group that twists the gospel and nature of Jesus Christ. Many have their faith uprooted completely but it's my hope that, in leaving, people work to build a personal and foundational relationship with God through his Son first and foremost with nothing else standing inbetween. In order to do so, many times you do need to start with a fresh clean slate.

Jesus is the cornerstone of not only a Christian's own life but he is the cornerstone of every fellowship that comes together in his name. You can't rely on a ministry or movement to be that cornerstone. Eventually the life you built upon such ministries or movements which deem themselves the one and only move of God on earth will come crashing down.

Unfortunately in many cases pursuing an individual relationship with Jesus Christ means risking other relationships. That much is clear in scripture. But I can testify to this; the Lord Jesus has been faithful to me through every hardship, trial, and loss I've endured in weakness for his namesake. I have no doubt he'll be faithful to all those that choose to place their faith in him and in him alone moving forward.

No, you won't find a perfect group of believers with perfect doctrine but you do need to know the difference between groups that teach a false gospel and a false Christ and those that don't and you won't be able to do that unless YOU are personally convicted of the true gospel and of the Jesus Christ of scripture. No one can impose the truth of God or salvation on you. This is the responsibility left to the individual alone.

[stillseekingtruth]

Originally Posted by Hannah

I understand and know bitterness. My heart is with yours.

Churches use all kinds of methods. Sometimes they miss the mark and other times it's just right. Then of course our own preference comes into play nd that's OK too, IMHO.

Jesus was radical in his day too.

I was raised in the GLA, cleveland specifically. I rememeber the remarks TC made about the YP. I was a YP in Anaheim, also, and heard similar negative remarks about both the YP and the serving ones in Cleveland. I know several who took the lead with MT Top and Ignite were desperate for the YP because they were leaving in droves, ,not just leaving church but also a faith. The standard LsM approved SSOT for many was not leading us to christ. There were so dynamic salvation those summers and real experiences of christ and for some church kids it was the first of their lives. The first summer of the gospel odyssey 80 people got saved. An excited young college brother shared that at the summer training and he was told it didnt matter because they didnt join the local church. YP who didnt care much about God became interested and began seeking, some for the first time. It was in part because of these "worldly" practices.

Personally, I didnt really want much to do with it, for a myriad of reasons, one being that I was heading out the local church door.

Ultimately we each have to follow where there is life and peace.
In love,

Hannah

Thank you, Hannah for the response. I, also, was in the Cleveland area. That is sad, sad, sad the LSM brother discouraged the young serving one. There was always something more you should’ve/could’ve done. Unless the new one fully subscribed to coming to the meetings you didn’t do a good enough job at ‘converting’ them.

I wonder if the YP were leaving the faith because of all the confusion. On one side you had someone whispering in your ear to follow LSM and the other to follow TC or branch out and start your own thing. It’s impossible to serve LSM and TC. It was shocking when ones got rid of their LSM life studies and what not. The LSM Brothers would say that at the end times people will have a voracious appetite for the ministry so if we didn’t want it and it ended it up in the thrift stores someone would come and devour it because, as we all know, Lee’s ministry is the highest peak truth and blah blah blah. Ridiculous.

[stillseekingtruth]

“I know several who took the lead with MT Top and Ignite were desperate for the YP because they were leaving in droves, ,not just leaving church but also a faith.” - Hannah

I had no idea why Mountain Top and Ignite started. I’m thankful to those brothers who had a burden for the young ones.

[Sons to Glory!]

Brother Jo - I had some good, casual fellowship with a leading bro after today's Sunday gathering. I told him a little background regarding the nature of this thread, then asked your question - had there ever been a public repudiation of all things LC? He said not to his knowledge (even though he's only been an elder here maybe 10 years, he's been around and should know).

So there's the answer to your question, at least as far as I care to pursue it. Hope that satisfies your inquiry, but do let me know if you have any other questions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I knew Dick when he and his family were in San Diego. I liked them. I really liked his wife Ruth who has passed away.

There was a conflict with a friend, a sister, in Arizona we were visiting. Because of her personality, she got branded "divisive," the ultimate LC "curse." Being an outsider, I fellowshiped with Dick Ingram. He seemed like the only spiritual brother around. He made it clear that her situation was merely a conflict of personalities, which describes some 80% of all church conflicts.

Unfortunately for her, so few in the LC's had much discernment at all. Consequently opinionated free thinkers would get branded by leaders.

Here's my conclusion to the matter: When a church loves and honors only Lee and his ministry, their love for people never suffers long, nor is kind. They become puffed up, and behave unbecomingly. They are easily provoked, and often take account of evil.

Quite contrary to the agape love Paul writes about in I Corinthians 13.

[Sons to Glory!]

So HERn, you started this thread - what are your thoughts on this discussion?