Intro of an ex "Church Kid"

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by aron

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

So. To be honest... there are a lot of posters in here that sound just like LC people. Same flavors. Just from a different store. It's ok. The dynamic experiences of a generation or two of people who CHOSE the LC were real to them and are valid and meaningful. Those (often) are not the experiences of "church kids" who choose to leave. Imagine being raised in that system without any of those dynamic experiences? How would you feel about Christianity? Being told your whole life this is reality and not seeing anything remotely real?

Also I will say that there's a lot of what sounds like victim blaming. If "church kids" leave I'd say that's the fault of the parents/CL society for not providing whatever it was that drew the first gen group to Jesus in the first place. If you aren't providing what drew you to your children you're feeding them something else. That's not the kids fault.
I regretted writing the bit about choosing a bible version because I figured it would result in a thread deviation. It's ironic because as a "church kid" I have a lot of bible knowledge, know a lot about different versions, and being quite a bit younger, know that I can find them all online. I am not putting down anyones responses though. The input is truly appreciated. Really, I'm not knocking it. I just meant that I was maybe willing to have one out on my bedside table and, since they cost a fair amount to have a nice one, I'm being picky about which new one I actually purchase. And, also being a "church kid" wouldn't you know I already own a few They just have lots of memories tied to them that I don't necessarily want sleeping next to me.

[Cal]

I know this is going to sound trite, but the problem isn't God or Jesus or the Bible or even "organization." The problem is people. People are all fallen, so any time you get involved with them there are going to be problems. (This includes any time you are involved only with yourself.)

And this includes people in no matter what venue. Just going to the grocery store can be a problem because you have to deal with people.

The trouble with people is that you can't live with them and you can't live without them. That's just the way it is. So the key is to get your relationship with the Main Person (God) in line, and then let him guide you in your interaction with people.

The whole problem with the LR is the defining parameters are all whacked. There is all this angst and worry about LEAVING the LR. ("Oh, horrors!") Of course you are going to have anxiety issues if you worry about things God doesn't worry about. (Strictly speaking, though God has concerns, he doesn't worry about anything.) Let me tell you, God is not much concerned about anyone leaving the LR. Okay? It's a false concern. Leave if you want to, stay if you want to, as God leads. People change churches all the time. It's not a big deal. And, usually parents want their kids to follow in their footsteps. That's normal and human. But there is no moral imperative there. It's your life. Who has the right to tell you where you should attend church? Like I said, it's a whacked LR parameter.

But realize you are never going to find the perfect set of peeps or relationships, spiritual or secular. People are fallen. Trust me, they have the same problem with you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I know this is going to sound trite, but the problem isn't God or Jesus or the Bible or even "organization." The problem is people. People are all fallen, so any time you get involved with them there are going to be problems. (This includes any time you are involved only with yourself.)

And this includes people in no matter what venue. Just going to the grocery store can be a problem because you have to deal with people.

The trouble with people is that you can't live with them and you can't live without them. That's just the way it is. So the key is to get your relationship with the Main Person (God) in line, and then let him guide you in your interaction with people.

The whole problem with the LR is the defining parameters are all whacked. There is all this angst and worry about LEAVING the LR. ("Oh, horrors!") Of course you are going to have anxiety issues if you worry about things God doesn't worry about. (Strictly speaking, though God has concerns, he doesn't worry about anything.) Let me tell you, God is not much concerned about anyone leaving the LR. Okay? It's a false concern. Leave if you want to, stay if you want to, as God leads. People change churches all the time. It's not a big deal. And, usually parents want their kids to follow in their footsteps. That's normal and human. But there is no moral imperative there. It's your life. Who has the right to tell you where you should attend church? Like I said, it's a whacked LR parameter.

But realize you are never going to find the perfect set of peeps or relationships, spiritual or secular. People are fallen. Trust me, they have the same problem with you.

Pretty good Igzy. The world would be a great place if there weren't people in it.

And we're all just human primates.

Accept it and make the best of it. I find making God my buddy makes it easier ... while making humans buddies makes it harder ... but more interesting ... less boring ... and there's love to be found there ... if you play it right, and are lucky.

So Lord, bless all us human idiots ... we certainly need it. Please don't leave us to our devices.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Pretty good Igzy. The world would be a great place if there weren't people in it.

And we're all just human primates.

Well, I never said either things.

The world would not be better without us.

We are not human primates.

We are God's best creation, we bear his image. We are not primates. And the world would have no purpose without us.

Other than that, I agree with you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I never said either things.

Know you didn't. I did based upon what you said. And I wouldn't know if the world would be a better place if there weren't humans in it. Cuz I wouldn't be here. A lot of the other species would think it better tho.

Originally Posted by Igzy

We are not human primates.

Well okay, 98% human primate. And that last 2% must be God's image in us ... cuz it surely packs a divine like wallop, compared to the Chimps.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Other than that, I agree with you.

Thanks. Not all of us act like animals. And laughter is good medicine.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I never said either things.

The world would not be better without us.

We are not human primates.

We are God's best creation, we bear his image. We are not primates. And the world would have no purpose without us.

Other than that, I agree with you.

I agree. We aren't animals and it's not based on our DNA. We have a conscience and soul bearing His image.

I think Awareness is just battling Neitzsche and the nihilistic tendencies he picked up from him.

Hang in there Harold

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I agree. We aren't animals and it's not based on our DNA. We have a conscience and soul bearing His image.

I think Awareness is just battling Neitzsche and the nihilistic tendencies he picked up from him.

Hang in there Harold

Thanks Jo S. But I think I answered Igzy.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

The dynamic experiences of a generation or two of people who CHOSE the LC were real to them and are valid and meaningful. Those (often) are not the experiences of "church kids" who choose to leave. Imagine being raised in that system without any of those dynamic experiences? How would you feel about Christianity? Being told your whole life this is reality and not seeing anything remotely real?

Absolutely fantastic bit of writing. People need to consider perspectives like this. Really, if there is any gospel, any good news, it needs to factor in these kinds of witnesses. Otherwise it is just "preaching to the choir" and has very little power to reach beyond itself.

kappagamma thank you.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Also I will say that there's a lot of what sounds like victim blaming. If "church kids" leave I'd say that's the fault of the parents/CL society for not providing whatever it was that drew the first gen group to Jesus in the first place. If you aren't providing what drew you to your children you're feeding them something else. That's not the kids fault.

This also is important to consider. It has come to mind a few times recently. I SAW it in the Lord's Recovery but I coudn't really PROCESS what I saw.

What I've been considering on these same lines: here was this generation ('60s and '70s) that came into the LR, and would always tell each other and their children stories about leaving the RCC or the Baptists or SDA or whatever, because that experience was so deficient. Now, here they are "on the local ground" and "just enjoying Christ" etc. Over and over you would hear this narrative theme.

But why deny your kids the same experience? Why deny them the same journey? You got to leave "vanity" and find "reality" and now you're stuffing your "vanity" down someone else's throat day after day! Why? It was all about your choice once, now it's all about denying your kids the same choice, the same option to find a path and follow it. Everything in the "pipeline" was designed to carefully, bit by bit, remove any vestige of choice.

Yet they couldn't see it. They were so convinced that they could manufacture some crisis point (carefully built up since they were in diapers) to get the progeny to "choose Christ" which meant "choose Christ and the Church" which meant "submit to the Ministry of the Age" etc etc. The whole thing a big manufactured sham.

And yet they couldn't see it. The whole time they thought they were serving God.

kg, thanks for your voice. It is needed out here.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

kg, thanks for your voice. It is needed out here.

Hear! Hear! Amen to that!

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

It was all about your choice once, now it's all about denying your kids the same choice, the same option to find a path and follow it. Everything in the "pipeline" was designed to carefully, bit by bit, remove any vestige of choice.

Yet they couldn't see it. They were so convinced that they could manufacture some crisis point (carefully built up since they were in diapers) to get the progeny to "choose Christ" which meant "choose Christ and the Church" which meant "submit to the Ministry of the Age" etc etc. The whole thing a big manufactured sham..

I raised some objections about the LC/LR awhile back and a defender of things LSM on this forum replied, "So what? The Baptists also do this". See above, and consider the similarities. I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

But my objection was, and remains, that at its best - its best - the LC/LR is no better than the Baptists. And at its worst it is much worse. No Baptist preacher that I know says that he has the Ministry of the age, that all churches must align under his teachings, some questionable, in an absolute fashion. "If you're not 100% under me get out". All churches must be "absolutely identical" with one another and "not having any individual distinctiveness" (Footnote 1, Revelation 1:20 RecV).

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

This poses for me a troubling theological question about a person's salvation. I have met a few folks who claimed to be genuinely born again as a youngster, believing in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then, decades later, they espouse no faith whatsoever. As an adult they reject the whole existence of God.

Evangelicals believe that once born again, one can never be snatched from His hand. Yet we are saved by faith. As Abraham was reckoned righteous by his faith in God. Without faith in the Savior's death, how can our debt for sin be paid?

How many others, like aron, were "manipulated" as youngsters to "come forward" and confess their sins and confess His name? Then which is it? Are we saved by faith, or by being born again? In a normal world, both exist together, but these are not normal times. Thoughts?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How many others, like aron, were "manipulated" as youngsters to "come forward" and confess their sins and confess His name?

Me, at 8 yrs old, in a Southern Baptist.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then which is it? Are we saved by faith, or by being born again? In a normal world, both exist together, but these are not normal times. Thoughts?

Isn't faith a product of grace?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC - either because they are before my time or presented too vaguely to carry the necessary weight to resonate with me... or they don't match the sentiment that I have from being raised in this environment as opposed to those who chose it for themselves in adulthood. Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

I wanted to bring this part of the opening post forward because I think it really encapsulates what kappagamma was really wanting to get through to. us forum regulars. Of course she can correct me if I'm wrong

When our new friend says "I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC" I think we should take this very seriously. Nobody...repeat...absolutely nobody, has a monopoly on the truth. I think most of us would agree that the only person who has a monopoly on the truth is the the one and only true God-Man, the One who proclaimed that He was "the way, the truth and the life. Remember the words of the Lord Jesus when praying to the Father - "Your Word is Truth". And who was sent by the Father and brought us to the ultimate truth? Why that would be "The Spirit of Truth".

And yes kappagamma, you are quite correct is saying

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

This forum is composed of quite an expansive cross section of people who have widely differing experiences and views about the Local Church of Witness Lee. One part of this cross section is sorely missing on this forum is people like you. So stick around and maybe make your mark around here.
-

[Weighingin]

I've seen since the 1970s, a substantial number of "church kids" not stay around once they could leave as adults. Now this is seen with the ones who matured in the 1990s and 2000s leaving. Some of the reasons, like this one regarding the MOTA belief, are common to many of us. But I believe it helps all to see how ones raised in the recovery without any choice of their own decide to leave.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I raised some objections about the LC/LR awhile back and a defender of things LSM on this forum replied, "So what? The Baptists also do this". See above, and consider the similarities. I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

But my objection was, and remains, that at its best - its best - the LC/LR is no better than the Baptists. And at its worst it is much worse. No Baptist preacher that I know says that he has the Ministry of the age, that all churches must align under his teachings, some questionable, in an absolute fashion. "If you're not 100% under me get out". All churches must be "absolutely identical" with one another and "not having any individual distinctiveness" (Footnote 1, Revelation 1:20 RecV).

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

Maybe after the LC everything needs to be tossed for awhile.