RE: Open Letter - Dear Saints in the Lord's Recovery - Joann Casteel

[Weighingin]

Thank you, Ohio and Nell for your response to my "storms" statement. I believed the LSm side that the storms were caused by dissenting, ambitious, offended,
rebellious, etc. ones. In recent years, I have seen that there were other factors involved, to say the least. It finally struck me that they were never wrong, if they even considered what these brothers brought up, they never admitted it.
I had thought that the 2006 actions were right. But only within the past couple of years, did I actually see how wrong those actions were, mainly by the results:
division, hurts, confusion etc. Ohio writing about these factors with the quarantine, caused to start thinking critically about it.
Anyways, I just found it interesting that these had occurred in 10-year spans and there hadn't been one since 2006.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

.
I believed the LSm side that the storms were caused by dissenting, ambitious, offended,
rebellious, etc. ones.

That has been an endless narrative. The go-to explanation why so and so left the local churches.
If we operate on facts, where are the facts to support the LSM narrative?
Never have been any.
Rather I suggest the LSM narrative is projection how they feel.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

If we operate on facts, where are the facts to support the LSM narrative?

Never have been any. Rather I suggest the LSM narrative is projection how they feel.

Right - the LSM narrative "This is so" actually means, "I wish this were so". Or, "If this were so, that would feel good. But if it wasn't so, that wouldn't feel good." Voila! Pseudo-reality. Something is summarily declared to be so. There's no independent or objective corroboration given. Just a statement that something is so. The oracle has spoken. End of discussion.

From The Spokesman-Review Dec 17 1978

Although Grueller [sic] denies the Local Church is making a concerted effort to discredit Rapoport, ex-members say Rapoport is being represented as a Judas and one who tried to achieve more authority.

Rapoport said his disenchantment with the movement began about 18 months ago when Lee refused to act on his demand that Lee's son, Philip, be removed as head of the Living Stream Ministry after a church member accused Philip of an immoral act.

Attempts to reach Philip Lee for comment were unsuccessful. Witness Lee said his son does not like to answer such charges.

Witness Lee refused to act on Max Rapoport's demand. Why? Because he didn't want to, that's why. He's Witness Lee, the voice of God. That's the sum total of reality in the LC: if the oracle wants to do something he does, and if he doesn't want to, then he refuses. And by extension, "Philip Lee doesn't like to answer such charges" - I mean, who would? Certainly Philip didn't want to face the music. But that's apparently sufficient in the LC -- the oracle's son doesn't want to answer such charges. End of conversation. Kind of like Dad was with Sal Benoît.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." Yes indeed, so subjective.... Christ is whatever you want Christ to be - how very convenient. And ten years later, someone else found the oracle's son in the same office doing the same "immoral act". Surprised?

[aron]

1. I recall reading the Publisher's Preface to the Second Edition of the Spiritual Man, supposedly the only book Watchman Nee ever wrote, where the publisher noted that much of the material was merely copied, unattributed, from others. But he said that was a Chinese custom to show appreciation. (I am going by memory here).

Here is the note from the CFP version of Spiritual Man. Watchman Nee's preface:

"I am not the first to advocate the teaching of the dividing of spirit and soul. Andrew Murray once said that what the church and individuals have to dread is the inordinate activity of the soul with its power of mind and will. F. B. Meyer declared that had he not known about the dividing of spirit and soul, he could not have imagined what his spiritual life would have been. Many others, such as Otto Stockmayer, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Evan Roberts, Madame Guyon, have given the same testimony. I have used their writings freely since we all have received the same commission from the Lord; therefore I have decided to forego notating their many references."

2. On this forum someone noted that much of Witness Lee's Life-study was apparently cribbed from a series of 19th-century Sunday School lessons.

Here:

Originally Posted by YP0534

I think perhaps Mr. Tomes missed Mr. Lee's actual source.

Compare:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mtx...A145&lpg=PA145

Note the reference to "evergreen tree" which does not appear in the Vincent note.

I obviously haven't compared all these references and it doesn't alter the fact that there is an unattributed source or sources involved but this is, to my mind, even more eye-opening.

It looks to me like, at least for this example, the process began with review of Peloubet's Select Notes On The International Sunday School Lessons, a comparison with the Vincent material was done for thoroughness and clarity (that's where the word "destitute" came from, in addition to the St. John's bread point), and then a summarized and enhanced form of Peloubet's note became Lee's footnote on this topic...

and here:

Originally Posted by YP0534

Is anyone familiar with the matters referred to in these volumes?

http://books.google.com/books?id=aBUAAAAAYAAJ

http://books.google.com/books?id=96tJAAAAIAAJ

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

From The Spokesman-Review Dec 17 1978

Witness Lee refused to act on Max Rapoport's demand. Why? Because he didn't want to, that's why. He's Witness Lee, the voice of God. That's the sum total of reality in the LC: if the oracle wants to do something he does, and if he doesn't want to, then he refuses. And by extension, "Philip Lee doesn't like to answer such charges" - I mean, who would? Certainly Philip didn't want to face the music. But that's apparently sufficient in the LC -- the oracle's son doesn't want to answer such charges. End of conversation. Kind of like Dad was with Sal Benoît.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." Yes indeed, so subjective.... Christ is whatever you want Christ to be - how very convenient. And ten years later, someone else found the oracle's son in the same office doing the same "immoral act". Surprised?

Philip Lee's favorite saying: We don't care for right and wrong. We only care for life!

I'm sure WL had been dealing with his boys' SNAFU's their whole life. He was used to doing nothing about it. Standard procedure here. Just wait church, things will all get better, storm clouds will pass over, and everything will get back to normal.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

From The Spokesman-Review Dec 17 1978

Witness Lee refused to act on Max Rapoport's demand. Why? Because he didn't want to, that's why. He's Witness Lee, the voice of God. That's the sum total of reality in the LC: if the oracle wants to do something he does, and if he doesn't want to, then he refuses. And by extension, "Philip Lee doesn't like to answer such charges" - I mean, who would? Certainly Philip didn't want to face the music. But that's apparently sufficient in the LC -- the oracle's son doesn't want to answer such charges. End of conversation. Kind of like Dad was with Sal Benoît.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." Yes indeed, so subjective.... Christ is whatever you want Christ to be - how very convenient. And ten years later, someone else found the oracle's son in the same office doing the same "immoral act". Surprised?

A side point at that time in Anaheim (I was there 1976-1979), it's not only the parents who remained open to Max that suffered, but THEIR CHILDREN TOO. Friendships were squashed among churchkids by the parents. Very sad.

Anyways, I emphasized a portion of Aron's post. This is the M.O. of elders, co-workers etc when confronted with questions, criticisms, etc. Whether it be Harvest House, Steve Isitt, or direct personal interactions. No response. This is what I have termed as bunker mentality. Brothers have no problems levying their opinions (founded or unfounded). Yet when others do the same which invariably questions the ministry, it's by default labeled as an attack when that's hardly the intention of the individual or individuals.

[aron]

On the FB page:

From a saint, “My first husband who I met in the church had schizophrenia but we never dated before getting married so I didn’t realize how mentally ill he was. It got so severe he went to the elders and was told “no psychiatrists, no meds. You just need to pray-read more.” He got worse and worse, became totally disabled, couldn’t work and lay for hours in a fetal position. After 20 years of marriage I told him I was done. Sadly he was shunned for years by lots of “saints” because he didn’t measure up.”

This right here is why I am speaking up about receiving mental health help. I have received message after message from saints both still in and those who have left who were afraid to go to a psychologist or psychiatrist due to things told to them in the church life. If LSM no longer endorses this view from Brother Lee they need to issue a public retraction of his statements that are used against the saints.

Here’s a direct quote from Brother Lee regarding not receiving mental health help. I also find this statement to be sexist:

“Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of Genesis, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1975, page 431).

One aspect of high control groups is programming their members to fear receiving mental health help:

http://bit.ly/ProgrammedtoFearMentalHealthHelp

Any other experiences both positive or negative regarding receiving mental health help in the church life? I realize many of you cannot comment due to needing to protect yourself and your families. I received permission to anonymously post this story about a saint with schizophrenia.

__________________________________________________ ______________

I came into the LC thinking all my problems were over -- I was in the church life, on the local ground, calling "Oooh Looord Jeeezuss!!" with all the saints. What could be finer?

Eventually my problems came back. I went to three elders, one by one. And one by one they blew me off. One by one they looked glum when I privately confessed my woes, and in a few sentences they each made it clear that they were not in the business of providing mental health counseling. That's probably one reason that they told us they wanted "good building material" - stable college students from stable homes. Good potential earners with no serious problems. Because the LC is not very interested in your problems. It exposes their inability to actually transform human lives.

To repeat my previous question: if you are "becoming God" shouldn't there be some tangible issue, today, more than with the Baptists and Presbyterians? Where are the Gerasene madmen, now clothed and whole to the astonishment of natives? Where is the sign of your "kingdom power"? I don't really see it in the LC. I see temporary soulish excitement of getting together and shouting repetitively. But people by and large are not getting fundamentally transformed. So "becoming God in life and nature" is an abstraction of the mind, to hold captive imaginations in thrall, while lives slowly fade away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Any other experiences both positive or negative regarding receiving mental health help in the church life? I realize many of you cannot comment due to needing to protect yourself and your families. I received permission to anonymously post this story about a saint with schizophrenia.

I think there is quite a diversity among the saints when it came to mental health issues. Perhaps it was regional, or just local.

The Psych hospital in town has the belief that all mental health problems are biological in nature. The first time I heard that, it sounded good, but what that really meant was they just needed to prescribe the right med for each illness. Once you started down this path, it was lifetime of meds, changing meds, and coping with the side effects. Insurance companies preferred this over actual counseling costs. Most of the saints I knew were very much pro-meds. Prosac, Paxil, Zoloft, etc. were the "saviors" of mankind. In extreme cases meds can help, but they should never be considered a panacea of sorts. At times they have been helpful to family members, and at times they seem to cause more problems.

Personally, I was a messed up kid who probably should have had both counseling and numerous meds. Perhaps that might have delivered me from my days of self-medication, perhaps not. One night before sleeping I had a life-changing visit by the Savior. Changed my mind, my heart, my attitude, my personality. Everything was changed for the better. I was a new creation. Today I still have issues at times like everyone else, and I've been beaten up over the years, but I keep coming back to the Physician and Healer of my soul. Praise Him!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Personally, I was a messed up kid who probably should have had both counseling and numerous meds. Perhaps that might have delivered me from my days of self-medication, perhaps not. One night before sleeping I had a life-changing visit by the Savior. Changed my mind, my heart, my attitude, my personality. Everything was changed for the better. I was a new creation. Today I still have issues at times like everyone else, and I've been beaten up over the years, but I keep coming back to the Physician and Healer of my soul. Praise Him!

I was as messed up as any, and perhaps worse than some. I can't say that I wasted my time there, but eventually left in frustration (various reasons inc. lack of transformation). But years after leaving the LC, the Lord showed me something - as I do unto others, God will do to me. If I encourage and console, God will encourage and console me. If I facilitate God's healing, even tangentially, then it will facilitate mine own. It's all about how I treat the other guy (or gal). It's not about "me" but rather about "the other guy". Wow. I never got that in HS, not in the LC, not in college. That came straight from heaven.

In the LC it was all about "making it" - being an over comer and ruling and reigning with Christ in the coming Kingdom Age. But eventually I realised that the "reward" was in doing good to the other person right now, while it is still today. "Now is the hour of salvation." That was how to follow Christ - today. My problems to some extent remain, but when I help others today they get smaller.

And yes, I can seek help, too. And I have. But I'm no longer the black hole of need - everything in, nothing out. When I learned to give and to care I truly began to feel that God was healing me. "When you lose your soul you will find it."

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

On the FB page:

From a saint, “My first husband who I met in the church had schizophrenia but we never dated before getting married so I didn’t realize how mentally ill he was. It got so severe he went to the elders and was told “no psychiatrists, no meds. You just need to pray-read more.” He got worse and worse, became totally disabled, couldn’t work and lay for hours in a fetal position. After 20 years of marriage I told him I was done. Sadly he was shunned for years by lots of “saints” because he didn’t measure up.”

This right here is why I am speaking up about receiving mental health help. I have received message after message from saints both still in and those who have left who were afraid to go to a psychologist or psychiatrist due to things told to them in the church life. If LSM no longer endorses this view from Brother Lee they need to issue a public retraction of his statements that are used against the saints.

Here’s a direct quote from Brother Lee regarding not receiving mental health help. I also find this statement to be sexist:

“Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of Genesis, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1975, page 431).

One aspect of high control groups is programming their members to fear receiving mental health help:

http://bit.ly/ProgrammedtoFearMentalHealthHelp

Any other experiences both positive or negative regarding receiving mental health help in the church life? I realize many of you cannot comment due to needing to protect yourself and your families. I received permission to anonymously post this story about a saint with schizophrenia.

__________________________________________________ ______________

I came into the LC all happy, because all my problems were over. I was in the church life, on the local ground, calling "Oh Lord Jeeezuss!!" with all the saints. What could be finer?

Eventually my problems came back. I went to the elders, one by one. And one by one they blew me off. Years later, post-LC, I went and got professional help.

That's probably one reason that they told us they wanted "good building material" - stable Caucasian college students from stable homes. Good earners, with no problems. Because the LC is not very interested in your problems. It exposes their inability to actually transform human lives.

We've all read the accounts in scripture of Christ casting legions of demons out of people making them of sound mind again. It's indisputable. If he can do that with demon possessed people, what type of challenge does any kind of mental illness present for the finger of God?

It's heartbreaking that these individuals weren't given the proper attention and care that they needed in the LC's but the issue wasn't in saying that only Christ can truly heal mental illness, the root of the issue within the LC's is the dispensing of the wrong Jesus and the wrong spirits and only masking certain issues with mind emptying techniques. And these techniques, rather than confronting personal issues head-on, help one run away from their issues for a short time.

So instead of leadership taking blame for these shortcomings, the blame is passed onto the unwell individual for having a lack of faith. And pride prevents them from further recommending help outside of the church group. As a temporary fix to avoid outside help, the Nee and Lee implemented psychological methods done through certain mystical practices such as pray-reading and other mantra type exercises that pierce the psychic realm but can only, at best, temporarily subdue mental unease. And then these experiences are past off as being of God's Holy Spirit.

In a sense this is really no different then psychiatric help. These types of things have nothing to do with the spirit of Jesus Christ whom doesn't merely patch up our broken minds or help us avoid our minds altogether but he gives us a new mind, the mind of Christ (Ephesians 4:23) .

LC doctrine also substitutes a personal and individual relationship with Jesus Christ with a corporate "Christ" which is termed as "church-life". This in reality is just a synonym for a type of pseudo communal mentality acheived through a collective submission to church authority where one has to lay down their individuality for the greater good of the group and sold as the only way to have a relationship with Christ. I suppose the thought here is that if you "get out of your mind" by blindly submitting to "the vision" you will no longer have to deal with the problems of the mind. But what this does in reality is cause dissociation in the individual.

With that said, I understand the importance and place of psychiatry in today's society. I would never tell someone to avoid this type of help. I'd be a hypocrite if I did so. I know it's a crutch that can help people in desperate situations maintain or regain stability but to go to the extreme of viewing psychiatry and God as different but equal help isn't the correct stance to take either.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

On the FB page:
Here’s a direct quote from Brother Lee regarding not receiving mental health help. I also find this statement to be sexist:

“Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of Genesis, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1975, page 431).

I find it to be sexist as well. Most men raised in the local churches are likely in denial regarding their youth. Just as equally "most young men are sick either emotionally or mentally". From a man's point of view if you were raised in the local churches during your teen years, there is a high probability, they suffered some form of dysfunction emotionally or mentally. Don't put it all on the sisters. I place it all on parents and the local church culture. Too much peer pressure and expectation of conformity.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

This is the M.O. of elders, co-workers etc when confronted with questions, criticisms, etc. Whether it be Harvest House, Steve Isitt, or direct personal interactions. No response. This is what I have termed as bunker mentality.

What do I intend to convey in the phrase "bunker mentality"?
Silence when confronted with questions, critique, etc?
Silence is a means of maintaining control. It is avoidance of accountability.
When the period of silence is over. That is when "bunker mentality" comes ceases and leading ones come out of their "bunker" Next, you can expect "blame-shifting" message/communication to happen.
Is not that a fact what happened to Jo Casteel? The brothers leveraged "blame-shifting" in their "special meeting" of fellowship regarding her open letter?
Ironically "silence when confronted with questions" along with "blame-shifting" are traits, (but not the only traits" you can find in a narcissist.

[Nell]

So here’s my question. With all the FB and LCDiscussions publicity, et al, with the Casteel Open Letter, what is the impact? Is what’s happening “new”? Is this the beginning of a mass exodus that has been on the verge for a long time, or at least an accelerated downward spiral of LC/LSM membership? Did the LC on FB amount to its opening the door to open commentary on the Internet that they had/have been trying to keep shut for years? Is it too soon to call? Wait and see?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So here’s my question. With all the FB and LCDiscussions publicity, et al, with the Casteel Open Letter, what is the impact? Is what’s happening “new”? Is this the beginning of a mass exodus that has been on the verge for a long time, or at least an accelerated downward spiral of LC/LSM membership? Did the LC on FB amount to its opening the door to open commentary on the Internet that they had/have been trying to keep shut for years? Is it too soon to call? Wait and see?

Nell

Based on the history of the Exclusive Brethren, Recovery watchmen will merely double down on their expulsions and apocalyptic reminders of God's pending "judgments" upon all opinionated ones. Did you see that brother in Tennessee on the Casteel fb who was quarantined just 6 months ago? He had his 20 year pin. Quarantines no longer require directives from headquarters, but local elders will begin cutting off all undesirable members in order to "protect the body from further damage." Perhaps the pending Summer Training will have an afternoon workshop with Minoru Chen: "The god-ordained organic way to protect the body of Christ from satanic attacks on the internet." Dangerous members, who's only failure will be to ask for accountability or reform, will be like a cancer tumor surgically removed.

Is that what also happened to brother Dan Towle? Now if a well-respected Blended like Towle emerges with a revelatory public statement, that might precipitate the next "storm." The LSM/DCP wordsmiths will have to update their afaithfulword site to include him. Has anyone noticed that their writers never sign their names to anything? To give the impresssion that WL still speaks from the grave?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Based on the history of the Exclusive Brethren, Recovery watchmen will merely double down on their expulsions and apocalyptic reminders of God's pending "judgments" upon all opinionated ones. Did you see that brother in Tennessee on the Casteel fb who was quarantined just 6 months ago? He had his 20 year pin. Quarantines no longer require directives from headquarters, but local elders will begin cutting off all undesirable members in order to "protect the body from further damage." Perhaps the pending Summer Training will have an afternoon workshop with Minoru Chen: "The god-ordained organic way to protect the body of Christ from satanic attacks on the internet." Dangerous members, who's only failure will be to ask for accountability or reform, will be like a cancer tumor surgically removed. Is that what also happened to brother Dan Towle?

I would say "business as usual" too, except for the "Facebook Factor". They have lost some of their control that might skew history a bit. TMI so to speak.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would say "business as usual" too, except for the "Facebook Factor". They have lost some of their control that might skew history a bit. TMI so to speak.

Nell

Less than two weeks since posting the Open Letter, with 880+ comments and 31 shares, many of which have their own comments. Probably DCP has noticed.

https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

The Bite Model stands for:

Behaviour control
Information control
Thought control
Emotional control

Seems like the "Information control" part has been slipping recently.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would say "business as usual" too, except for the "Facebook Factor". They have lost some of their control that might skew history a bit. TMI so to speak.

They will try to maintain status quo until the bitter end. When the camel's back breaks things will happen very quickly. But you never when the last straw will fall.

The last straw will probably be financial distress. If members in droves stop buying ministry products and LSM's income stream dries up, that would probably do it.

Like in the Soviet Union, it is really all about everyone protecting their rear ends, and rear ends are material.