RE: Open Letter - Dear Saints in the Lord's Recovery - Joann Casteel

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I needed to clarify that the open letter message is not a storm in itself, but it imay be a factor for a storm to start and grow.
Please, anyone that can express some thing along this line better than me.

I'll try.

If this letter from the Casteel's causes devoted LC members around the country to ask questions, and demand answers, from their leadership, concerning abuses of all sorts, including sexual abuse, covered up for decades -- then we may have another "storm."

Note that every past 10-year "storm" has begun this way. None of them were ever really "persecution" carried out by "ambitious rebels." That never happened folks. Read both sides of the story. Of course, LC leadership, even Nee and Lee, would always spin the narrative to their advantage in order to deceive their followers. But mark my word, every so-called "storm" in the history of the Recovery came about because the members of the LC's demanded accountability from their leaders.

This is absolutely what the Blended brothers fear most.

This forum is filled with the stories of ex-members who demanded leadership accountability. Entire books have been written. Each and every time LC leadership has decided to amputate whole sections of the body of Christ -- conveniently called "quarantines," as if it was these members who were sick -- in order to protect their own hides, reputations, and finances.

[aron]

Ted

Originally Posted by Ohio

...every so-called "storm" in the history of the Recovery came about because the members of the LC's demanded accountability from their leaders..

When I read the letter from Jo Casteel, I saw a person trying to reclaim their life and thoughts after 38 years of total domination by another.

In the LC, to attempt to think is termed rebellion against God. If you notice something isn't right you have guilty feelings because you must be "off" and your soul is "dark". This makes people borderline psychotic because clearly things are not perfect but they are supposed to pretend they are. If they point out problems they are called "negative" and "leprous" and so forth. The only recourse is a kind of split personality where the "real you" is kept safely locked in a box and the "fake you" is on display for all to see. If you try to bring out the "real you" the negative sanctions are overwhelming.

Earlier I went on the LSM FB page, and they'd put the banners from the recent Chinese conference. One banner was about "Body-revelation" leading to "Body-consciousness" in which "individualistic thought is ruled out". So the Deputy God (DG) can have individualistic thought and start a motor home company with church members' money. Then when the money is gone, DG can say, "None of your business" if the investors want to know what happened. DG can put his admittedly unspiritual son as Office Manager, then when the son repeatedly molests the office help, the DG railroads all those who notice and speak up.

In all this I see individualistic (i.e. selfish) thought from the DG. Yet no one else is supposed to? And if we notice this we're guilty of thought-crime?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Earlier I went on the LSM FB page, and they'd put the banners from the recent Chinese conference. One banner was about "Body-revelation" leading to "Body-consciousness" in which "individualistic thought is ruled out".

This is so pathetically manipulative.

We are commanded to love our neighbor and forgive them. The more we love and forgive others, the more God loves us and forgives us. Remember the Lord's prayer, "and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

No where in the Bible are we required to live before man, obsessing over what the other members of the body might possibly be thinking about us. What ever happened to "walking by the Spirit?"

It's no wonder that those in the LC can proudly proclaim they have no rules, no dress codes, yet they all dress the same and get the same haircut. And God forbid that some sister gets it cut too short! They live their lives in fear of being marked out as being "independent, non-Body-consciousness, and individualistic."

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the saints, and love the Lord, or he will cleave to the saints, and despise the Lord. You cannot serve God and man." -- Ohio's practical up-to-date LC paraphrased version.

[aron]

A post by one who was in leadership in the LC, from '72 to '89.

"I would follow up with brother Lee was not a deceiver. God used him. He loved the Lord. In the early days we would leave his Wed night sharing full of joy, desiring more of Jesus. But eventually things changed and many of us would leave his sharing feeling condemned, especially during the perfecting training years. W Lee really did believe God only used one man at a time. He believed the mantle was passed to him after W Nee passed. Also Lee felt he had neglected his children growing up so tried his best to care for them later. This was his downfall for it was used by the enemy to bring in corruption when immoral sin was discovered and not dealt with.

Bro Lee also believed he was the deputy authority, commander in chief, and God’s unique oracle for the present time. His contempt for contemporaries was always apparent. He often put down other leading brothers who had their own ministry that the saints enjoyed. What can we conclude? Bro Lee was a man used by God who seems to have gone too far in his estimation of himself and allowed an empire to be built up around his ministry. Church history is full of such gifted men who went too far. May we learn the lesson to never build up our own empire, stay humble, stay faithful to the Word, keep the Lord first and never allow another to replace Him in our devotion. These are days to be encouraged. The Lord is more real than ever. It is the Father’s good pleasure to give us the kingdom."

[Ohio]

But WL made a career of warning us of all of these specific dangers in other ministers.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

Bro Lee also believed he was the deputy authority, commander in chief, and God’s unique oracle for the present time.

This is the bottom line. One either believes this about Lee or one doesn't. It is not something that can be proved by any logical means. Believing it is an act of faith. Of course, one's understanding of spiritual things should be informed by the Bible and sound reason. But two people who believe they know the Bible and are reasonable can still disagree on things.

This is why Jesus said, by their fruit you will know them. Examine the fruit of say Billy Graham and compare to Lee's fruit.

Besides some people believing Graham hobnobbed a little too much with the political leaders, Graham's slate is clean. Untold millions touched by the gospel through him. A genuinely holy life so impressive that he was honored by being only the fourth private citizen to lie in state in the Capitol Rotunda. Graham was not a man-pleaser, but he gained the respect of even unbelievers.

Lee clearly had a lot of potential. He had a unique way of producing precise, clear, life-giving teaching. But his megalomaniac and self-serving side produced so many abuses and scandals, and a legacy so mixed and confusing, that people don't know what to do with him, so he has been filed away as a strange quirk of history by most.

My point is that I do not believe that God would expect his people to consider such a flawed person, or any other person for that matter, as some kind of Minister of the Age. It just doesn't make any sense. It's always possible that someone God used greatly can go bad. So, how does one decide when that has happened in the MOTA world? For the LR they have no answer, or their answer is the current leaders will tell you.

Really? That's it? We're supposed to follow this movement blindly because Lee decided he was MOTA and some other people believe it, too? And because of that alone we are supposed to consider any alternative service we give to God as second-rate, tainted and probably worthless?

Does anyone really think that's how God operates? But that is the crazy LR mentality.

Reason doesn't work with these people because the basis of their beliefs is not reasonable. It's a primitive, visceral, ultimately fear-based thing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

My point is that I do not believe that God would expect his people to consider such a flawed person, or any other person for that matter, as some kind of Minister of the Age. It just doesn't make any sense. It's always possible that someone God used greatly can go bad. So, how does one decide when that has happened? For the LR they have no answer, or their answer is the current leaders will tell you.

Really? That's it? We're supposed to follow this movement blindly because Lee decided he was MOTA and some other people believe it, too? And because of that alone we are supposed to consider any alternative service we give to God as second-rate, tainted and probably worthless?

Does anyone really think that's how God operates? But that is the crazy LR mentality.

Reason doesn't work with these people because the basis of their beliefs is not reasonable, it's a visceral ultimately fear-based thing.

You would think that LC'ers (like myself) would have learned something from Papal history. Obviously the original leaders in the church in Rome, perhaps starting with Peter, were serious men of God. They loved God, His word, His people, and many suffered for this. Today they have a papal lineage spanning 2 millennium. They were not all bad, especially in the beginning.

Yet Catholic Popes, Brethren Oracles, and Recovery MOTA's had at least two defining characteristics in common. Firstly, they and their minions thought more highly of themselves than the Bible ever permitted. Secondly, they used a distorted oneness of the body of Christ to squelch all opinion to the contrary.

As the Casteel's experience has reminded us, how far will we go to maintain this distorted oneness? Every reformer in history faced this. Every LC'er faces this. How far does blind loyalty take us? How long do we reject the troubling of our conscience? How long do we remain silent in the face of hypocrisy? Obviously Lee's distorted views of oneness were a prison to enslave the minds of the saints.

Jo Casteel's story, along with hundreds of others, shows us that it is the word of God and His Spirit in our conscience which alone safeguard the child of God. The Casteel's will probably lose their church social life, much like the Jewish believers during Jesus' time were cast out of the Synagogue, but is that not the cost of freedom? As one poster keeps telling us, "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jo Casteel's story, along with hundreds of others, shows us that it is the word of God and His Spirit in our conscience which alone safeguard the child of God. The Casteel's will probably lose their church social life, much like the Jewish believers during Jesus' time were cast out of the Synagogue, but is that not the cost of freedom? .

Yes, all those pressures come to bear on you. Mental, emotional, social, identity, false condemnation. And the only thing that fights against them is that deep sense inside that the whole thing is not required by God. Yet the voices still attack. Satan above all does not care for reason, he only cares to deceive.

Eventually I had to pray, "Lord, I don't care about the LR! I think it's a bunch of crap! If it's the best you've got you can have it! If you want me there you'd better grab me by the scruff of my neck and drag me there, because I'm not going on my own!"

The Lord gently smiled and said, "Now you're beginning to understand."

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by aron

Bro Lee also believed he was the deputy authority, commander in chief, and God’s unique oracle for the present time.

It is no accident that the very first book published by the BBs after Witness Lee's death was about "spiritual authority" - emphasizing "The Deputy Authority" and "The Wise Master Builder."

This was to set the frame and the emphasis going forward. It was a precursor to the "One Publication" and a culture of the elimination of the individual in whom they somehow still claim the Spirit resides.

To me, this remains the most insidious and invidious aspects of the movement. Once you steal away one's individual responsibility to God, they become open to all manner of manipulation. All other abuses (financial, physical, psychological, familial) derive from this. It is the soil they set.

Jo's letter and many others who leave are simply individuals re-establishing a right relationship with God and/or themselves as autonomous human beings.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Jo's letter and many others who leave are simply individuals re-establishing a right relationship with God and/or themselves as autonomous human beings.

Amen! What he said.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

It is no accident that the very first book published by the BBs after Witness Lee's death was about "spiritual authority" - emphasizing "The Deputy Authority" and "The Wise Master Builder."

Peter, do you know the title of this book? If I could search by year published (I assume around 1997 or 1998) I would go looking myself.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Once you steal away one's individual responsibility to God, they become open to all manner of manipulation. All other abuses (financial, physical, psychological, familial) derive from this. It is the soil they set.

And then add to this the ever-pervasive "We're not in the realm of right and wrong" and you get very troubling results.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Peter, do you know the title of this book? If I could search by year published (I assume around 1997 or 1998) I would go looking myself.

And then add to this the ever-pervasive "We're not in the realm of right and wrong" and you get very troubling results.

In 1988, amidst a crisis in leadership, LSM released Nee's Authority and Submission.

In 1989, Andrew Yu delivered to us this "classic," titled "An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ."

Neither book provides any instruction on the responsibility and accountability of leaders to their churches.