I need a church life that isn't led astray!!!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

~Mormon Polygamists. All Mormons, for that matter. I don't greet them in the streets, I just move on.

It's curious to see Mormons on this list because as far as zeal to spread their movement and biblical knowledge, they would run circles around LC'ers. Same goes for JW's.

The Mormons have the prophet Joseph Smith and his extra biblical revelation of a latter day restored church. The LC's have their apostles Nee, Lee, Chu with the extra biblical revelation of a restored church in a one church per city model.


Both claim Jesus as Lord. Where do you draw the line in the case of the Mormons and do you consider the Local Churches in that group that you posted? Why or why not?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

The Mormons have the prophet Joseph Smith and his extra biblical revelation of a latter day restored church. The LC's have their apostles Nee, Lee, Chu with the extra biblical revelation of a restored church in a one church per city model.

The Book of Mormon is an addition to scripture, not an interpretation of existing canon. Seems like a clear difference to me. Although the uncritical reception of the Lee hermeneutic within the LC, versus the critical reception of scripture as "fallen human concept" does blur the line somewhat. The LC likes to dance on the edge of orthodoxy- the LDS goes over the edge with its Book of Mormon.

But there are a lot of similarities.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

The Book of Mormon is an addition to scripture, not an interpretation of existing canon. Seems like a clear difference to me. Although the uncritical reception of the Lee hermeneutic within the LC, versus the critical reception of scripture as "fallen human concept" does blur the line somewhat. The LC likes to dance on the edge of orthodoxy- the LDS goes over the edge with its Book of Mormon.

But there are a lot of similarities.

I'd agree that the Book of Mormon is over the top but the biblical charge you're referring to is the addition of special revelation to scripture found in Revelation 22:19 although I believe you may be interpreting the "adding" to a literal second book rather than in a more general sense.

Yes, Mormons do add revelation to scripture but so do the Local Churches. Perhaps it's not through an additional book but they do it through biblical interpretation in speech and literature.

Adding revelation to scripture can come in more than one way. It doesn't matter whether it comes from an additional book or through verbal or written exposition, you're adding revelation to scripture that is not there in the text. Mormons and Local Church members are similar in this sense no matter what the "extra" is.

So if you argue that the reason Mormons and the Local Churches differ is because they do not have an additional book along with the bible I'd say that may be true but both groups are still violating the same command in scripture.

As it stands both groups have their self appointed apostles and prophets and their unique revelation, neither of which are found in orthodoxy, so if you deem one heretical based on adding to revelation then wouldn't it only be fair and do the same with the other?

[byHismercy]

I agree with Aron as to the LC dancing near the edge of the precipice whilst the Mormon church has fallen off the cliff with their lineage of gods, god fathers, god grandfathers and on and on. But regarding adding to scripture they have both erred.

Which brings me back to the reformed assembly. Isn't saying that God has elected some, His chosen, and the rest of mankind, the vast majority in fact, are without chance of salvation....absolutely without hope of avoiding hell, isn't that an addition? I just don't see it in scripture. And if it is an addition, should I have anything to do with it? It may be that it doesn't divide or separate the believers, but it seems like an awfully slippery slope to play near, in my opinion. Especially coming out of the LC.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I agree with Aron as to the LC dancing near the edge of the precipice whilst the Mormon church has fallen off the cliff with their lineage of gods, god fathers, god grandfathers and on and on. But regarding adding to scripture they have both erred.

Which brings me back to the reformed assembly. Isn't saying that God has elected some, His chosen, and the rest of mankind, the vast majority in fact, are without chance of salvation....absolutely without hope of avoiding hell, isn't that an addition? I just don't see it in scripture. And if it is an addition, should I have anything to do with it? It may be that it doesn't divide or separate the believers, but it seems like an awfully slippery slope to play near, in my opinion. Especially coming out of the LC.

I understand that Mormon theology is out there, I don't argue with that. But to someone outside of the LC's, their theology can look the same way. It's all a matter of perspective.

At it's core, becoming "God-men" isn't much different from what Mormonism teaches aside from perhaps being a bit less colorful in it's presentation. So where exactly is the edge? Both groups can effectively defend their positions with scripture. Is the edge merely subjective or is extra biblical revelation itself the edge, no matter the form?

The Mormons have a 100 year head start so they are definitely further down the cliff but I believe both fell off as soon as they embraced unique revelation.

With that said, ByHisMercy, I can't really tell you what to do in regards to new fellowship. What I do know is, the thing that gets many people involved with groups such as the Local Churches is loneliness or fear of being alone. That's all too human, nothing wrong with wanting community (which the LC's do well enough) but when your main driving force is social desire, isn't the root of your search for fellowship a wanting to be served rather than to serve?

I'd humbly suggest continue seeking God with all your strength and wanting to serve others first and foremost. Then I believe the Lord will lead you into the fellowship he intends for you to be a part of.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I understand that Mormon theology is out there, I don't argue with that. But to someone outside of the LC's, their theology can look the same way. It's all a matter of perspective.

At it's core, becoming "God-men" isn't much different from what Mormonism teaches aside from perhaps being a bit less colorful in it's presentation. So where exactly is the edge? Both groups can effectively defend their positions with scripture. Is the edge merely subjective or is extra biblical revelation itself the edge, no matter the form?

The Mormons have a 100 year head start so they are definitely further down the cliff but I believe both fell as soon as they embraced unique revelation.

With that said, ByHisMercy, I can't really tell you what to do in regards to new fellowship. What I do know is, the thing that gets many people involved with groups such as the Local Churches is loneliness or fear of being alone. That's all too human, nothing wrong with wanting community (which the LC's do well enough) but when your main driving force is social desire, isn't the root of your search for fellowship a wanting to be served rather than to serve?

I'd humbly suggest continue seeking God with all your strength and wanting to serve others first and foremost. Then I believe the Lord will lead you into the fellowship he intends for you to be apart of.

I don't know if social desire is my driving force. Socially, I would rather put it this way....if I were an animal, I would be a clam. In a closed shell. With a sign. It reads ``KEEP OUT. Mind your business and leave me to mine."

However, Jesus ask of me that I not forsake the assembling together with His body. So I would rather obey Him than my own preferences. Because I want to remain in His will for me, and receive the blessing. I've become accustomed to it. :-)

And I do have a desire to serve His body and others. I mean, there is not much love in my way, is there? Today I read that love is to keep His commandments. 2nd John vs. 6. So although it is plain to myself and probably others that I lack in love, maybe He will account me love if I obey....which is good news to me. I don't have much faith in my equipping unto that, but I will that I would.

But that doesn't make me any less wary as to doctrinal error.....I feel very much on guard, you know?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'd humbly suggest continue seeking God with all your strength and wanting to serve others first and foremost. Then I believe the Lord will lead you into the fellowship he intends for you to be apart of.

Also, this might not be what you meant to suggest, but I don't believe the Lord has qualifications on His children as to the stage of transformation they need to be in in order to meet! He said 'present your bodies, a reasonanle sacrifice'.....I doubt He would not want me in the assembly because I was not 'absolute' for service.....

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Also, this might not be what you meant to suggest, but I don't believe the Lord has qualifications on His children as to the stage of transformation they need to be in in order to meet! He said 'present your bodies, a reasonanle sacrifice'.....I doubt He would not want me in the assembly because I was not 'absolute' for service.....

This is what I fear most for people coming out of groups like the Local Churches. What tends to happen is a culture of "absolute" servitude is instilled but steered in the wrong direction thereby tainting these types of biblical principles for people later on. Rather than guiding you toward absolute servitude for Christ and his heavenly kingdom alone you're virtue is directed toward earthly ministries that merely feed the appetites and ambitions of men.

Let me ask you this. Was the apostle John forsaking the assembling together while exiled on the island of Patmos? Was God setting up a bad example for us by doing this? Of course not, it was God's will that he be kept in isolation for the purpose of His testimony. He can use any circumstance for His glory.

You'll often find that Hebrews 10:25 is a popular verse twisted by oppressive and controlling religious groups in order to prevent members from leaving through guilt. Looking at the complete context of that verse, the command given by the Hebrews author was specifically directed toward Jewish believers in Jesus Christ at a time when Jews struggled fellowshipping with believing Gentiles because of certain stigma.

Remember, Jesus often withdrew to be alone (Luke 5:16). God can use your time in the wilderness to further establish your individual relationship with him. Please don't think this is only possible in a corporate setting. It's simply not true. As matter of fact the order goes; love the Lord your God and then love your neighbor.

Please don't misunderstand, you do not have to be at a certain stage of transformation to fellowship with others! In the first commandment, the Lord is suggesting He wants to personally fellowship with you first and foremost! The outflow from that then results in service toward others in love and fellowship.

Don't be anxious or worry too much. If it's His will for you to fellowship with a new group of believers then He's capable of making that happen. Perhaps you need a bit more time to heal your wounds in Him or shift priorities before finding another fellowship? I know that tends to be the issue for me.

Either way, seek first Him and His kingdom. All else will fall into place.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I understand that Mormon theology is out there, I don't argue with that. But to someone outside of the LC's, their theology can look the same way. It's all a matter of perspective.

At it's core, becoming "God-men" isn't much different from what Mormonism teaches aside from perhaps being a bit less colorful in it's presentation. So where exactly is the edge? Both groups can effectively defend their positions with scripture. Is the edge merely subjective or is extra biblical revelation itself the edge, no matter the form?

The Mormons have a 100 year head start so they are definitely further down the cliff but I believe both fell off as soon as they embraced unique revelation..

I've already mentioned the incongruity of the LC lauding WN for sifting through thousands of different Christian books and forming a coherent and balanced view, and we can't do the same with his writings and WL? Why can't local assemblies both affirm and critique these authors? When we can only affirm, we're pushing their writings dangerously close to that of scripture. Especially when their output (WL) holds scripture as being "fallen" and "natural". I went into this in some depth in the 'Psalms' thread.

The question of, Where does one draw the line, has a subjective element. In my case, I make every effort to fellowship with believers of every type and stripe, knowing full well that where they're short of the mark I may be doubly so. Every failure is an opportunity to show mercy. But on the other hand there's this little word called 'truth' and we should not indulge someone's illogic merely to be polite and get along.

Paul said that everyone has a psalm, a revelation, a tongue or interpretation. But this is not 'adding to scripture' because it may be amended by others. My interpretation may balance your revelation. But the Book of Mormon doesn't allow that. What of, Science and Health by MBE? I've never read it but it seems to be in the Untouchable class by her followers. And the writings of WN & WL in the LC come perilously close as well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

The Mormons have a 100 year head start so they are definitely further down the cliff but I believe both fell off as soon as they embraced unique revelation.

As a point of comparison, referencing the "100 year head start," examining the history of the Exclusive Plymouth Brethren is far more informative. Both had identical beginnings, both then developed MOTA teachings and practices initiating their downward spiral, and both have deteriorated over time into aberrant and abusive sects.

If you want to know where the LC's are going, then study where the Exclusive Peebs are now.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The question of, Where does one draw the line, has a subjective element...

In my case, I feel LDS and JWs are 'over the line' and not genuine Christians. SDA have added the law and imposed it on the gentiles. So they are perilously close to being 'out' if in fact not already so. The LCs with their slavish attention paid to their 'apostle' who by Paul's word in Titus 1:6 and 1 Tim 3:4 doesn't even qualify to be an 'elder' in a local church are also perilously close to being 'out'. But who can really say who is 'out' and who is 'in'? I am thinking of the story where the reaping angels gather the wheat and the chaff is thrown away, and the 'wheat' is in the "Wedding Feast" and suddenly the Master comes into the feast and says to one 'wheat', "Who are you? Where is your garment?" and the one accosted is silent and ashamed. ~Matt 22:11-14

My point is, we can't really tell. If the reaping angels bring in the wrong ones, how much more will we! Just be merciful to everyone, and let God sort things out. But obviously keep yourselves from the wolves. Some people don't give the benefit of the doubt. But only God knows for sure.

But there's another aspect here, and that is ruined human lives being restored. Jesus did it, Peter did it after Pentecost, and we have that aspiration to follow. The Assembly is not merely a P & W session, or a 'training' to indoctrinate ones into somebody's ideas... its focus is on glorifying the King by visiting the sick, the weak and the prisoners. By aiding the proverbial widows and orphans.

If the children in our care see us exhibiting genuine love toward those in need, giving to those who can't repay us in this age, it will enhance their walk with God. It's all about helping the other guy - the supposed 'other' is in fact part of 'us', and 'us' is as close to God as it gets. Remember the gospels: love God and love your neighbour is as great as any command ever given. The Assembly is an opportunity to collectively experience and show this love. Not just to those who seem lovable, but especially that 'those who lack would be shown more abundant honour'.

To me, after confessing Jesus as Lord, and keeping myself from sin, the most important thing is to be a vehicle for God's outpoured love. When Peter looked down at the beggar man and said, "Silver and gold I have none, but this I have - in the name of Jesus rise and walk!!" this is the 'sign' that Peter is following Jesus. God's love reached Peter, and now God's love is flowing through Peter into the streets. Really, there is nothing else. Without this love, teachings are empty. Only love will endure.