Is this a perverted word?

[ZNPaaneah]

I searched LSM to find references to Bill Mallon.

An article entitled “Being Realistic” was published in a periodical entitled The Word and the Testimony. The author of this article is John So, and the editors of the periodical are John Ingalls and Bill Mallon. This article insinuates that I am like the Japanese army when it invaded and occupied the Philippines in the Second World War. This implies that I invaded the church in Anaheim, taking it and possessing it in order to make it “the church of Witness Lee.” The article goes on to indicate that the meeting on Ball Road in Anaheim is no longer a local church, because it has lost its ground. According to this article, the ground of the church in Anaheim has become a person (Witness Lee) and his work and ministry, and it is now occupied by us, just as the site of the temple in Jerusalem is occupied today by the Muslims. Is this not a perverted word?

In another portion of this article, under the heading “The Nicolaitans,” I am categorized by innuendo as a Nicolaitan. In the way of innuendo, I am also likened to Balaam, who peddled the word of God in order to make money.

This article by John So also likens me to Jezebel, who called herself a prophetess and killed all the prophets of God, making herself the unique oracle of God. Is this not a perverted word that fulfills Acts 20:30? (Witness Lee, "The Present turmoil in the Lord's Recovery and the direction of the Lord's move today", chapter 1, section 3.)

Now I don't have John So's article, but on this forum I have likened WL to Balaam, I have compared the situation to Jezebel, and the complaint that the true ground of the Local church is the ministry of WL has been made numerous times. Therefore this quote from WL could definitely be directed at this forum and as a result I thought it might be reasonable that since he asked, we can respond.

Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Perverse things is a reference to Num 22:32 And the angel of Jehovah said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I am come forth for an adversary, because thy way is perverse before me:. Balaam's way was "perverse".

In general perverse is to devise evil and sow discord.

Proverbs 6:14 In whose heart is perverseness, Who deviseth evil continually, Who soweth discord.

[ZNPaaneah]

For this critique of Witness Lee's practice and teaching to be a fulfillment of Acts 20:30 requires that John So, Bill Mallon and John Ingalls spoke these things to draw away disciples after themselves. Now that both John Ingalls and Bill Mallon are dead we can accurately judge if that was in fact what they were doing. If they did not do that we can fairly judge that the answer to WL's question: Is this not a perverted word that fulfills Acts 20:30? is no, it is not.

[Cal]

Any teaching that talks about holding the local ground or losing the local ground is totally out in the weeds. Who decides on these rules, anyway?

It's all a bunch of mumbo jumbo nonsense. "You had the local ground, but now you lost the local ground." "But wait, I have it back, because of this... or that... which I just made up!"

It's like they are playing Dungeons and Dragons...

Player 1: "I hold the Supreme Wizard card, therefore your teleportation powers are neutralized!"

Player 2: "Ho, ho! But I have the Flying Pig card, which disempowers your Supreme Wizard card! Therefore I can teleport!"

Player 1: "But no! Because the Flying Pig stopping the Supreme Wizard requires that you also hold the double bonus card, which you don't have!"

Player 2: "But I do have a time travel card, which allows me one free time reset--which I will now use to reverse my playing my double bonus card three turns ago. So I will still have it! Hah!"

And on and on, ad vomitus.

Wake up, people!

[byHismercy]

It is all so creepily distorted from the truth. The truth is that the body is Christs', the church is Christs', the building is Christs' as the rightful Builder, the work is and was Christs', completed on the cross, the faith given to us is Christs', and on and on. But the LC has this goofy, displaced tug of war going on with ????? Who? Everybody or nobody? for possession of The Church. As if they could claim rightful ownership or headship over what is Christs' to head up. The more I see, the less I understand this power struggle.....it is as if they want to be able to say which of the saints gets to inherit the Lord, which are to be disinherited. Such an awesome position of responsibility was picked up by this ministry, and such terrible abuse of the faithful who get caught up in it. I praise Lord Jesus. He was merciful to let me see the reality of the WL sect, He released me when an attempt was made to bring me into the LC bondage. He is so trustworthy, brothers and sisters......

byHismercy

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It is all so creepily distorted from the truth. The truth is that the body is Christs', the church is Christs', the building is Christs' as the rightful Builder, the work is and was Christs', completed on the cross, the faith given to us is Christs', and on and on.

Anything that distorts from that view at the very least has the appearance of evil. It has the appearance of denying the Lord who redeemed us.

The one trumpet, the one publication, the idea that the vision of the age is with one man, the MOTA, these things all have the appearance at the very least, of denying the Lord.

[ZNPaaneah]

He can't be claiming it is a perverted word to apply this to others because that is what he did.

How is it that Christianity today has become such a dreadful religion? Just because of the matter of money, the teaching of Balaam.

Inevitably following the teaching of Balaam is the teaching of the Nicolaitans. (WL, Christ versus Religion, chapter 12, section 3)

Nor can be perverted to quote Peter, Jude, John and Paul on this matter. The word of God is pure, a light to our path.

[ZNPaaneah]

Dear brother Witness Lee,
It has come to our attention recently through several witnesses that gross immorality and some other sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5:11 have been committed by your son Philip Lee (who is identified as your Ministry Office) on more than one occasion over a long period of time. This deeply disturbs us. It grieves us even more that you and some of your close co-workers were aware of the situation and yet not only tolerated it but covered it up. What is worse is that, while this was happening, you and your co-workers were promoting and exalting him to the extent that he was able to intervene in the churches’ affairs in recent years. The peak of this promotion was evident at your elders’ training in Taipei in June 1987. Some of your co-workers were not only themselves under the influence and control of Philip Lee, but were also openly bringing elders and young people of many local churches to come under the same influence and control in your name and for your sake. The five brothers whom you and your Office sent to Europe in your place in May 1986 were trying to do the same here. Our young people who went to your training in Taipei have also testified of the same.
Before God, before the brothers and sisters in the local churches, before the Christian public, and for the sake of the Lord’s testimony, we are compelled by our conscience to fully disassociate ourselves from such sins and behaviour in your work.
– John So and elders of nine churches in Europe

This is the letter of disassociation from John So. If you compare this letter to the Blendeds letter excommunicating Titus it is the Blendeds letter that is perverted.

Disassociating yourself from WL because you refuse to allow a man who is grossly immoral, a wolf, to seize control of the church is what the elders are supposed to do. Rebuking WL for covering up these sins is also what they are obligated to do. The close coworkers refer to RG and BP, and we do know that they were orchestrating the situation so that churches and elders would be brought under the control of this one. There is nothing perverted in what John So has written here, nor are his actions erroneous. He is required as a shepherd of the sheep and one who is to be faithful to the great shepherd, to do this.

[JB482]

In 1972 when I was invited to go to a meeting during the Kingdom conference at the Los Angeles convention center. After that meeting I asked the brother that invited me,Marshall Davis,I asked him how do you know that this 'Local Church' won't just turn into a Denomination someday like all the other Denominations? He replied 'well if we aren't faithful to the Lord it very well could happen' Now I have to admit at that time in 1972 there was a real blessing on the Local Church with the presence of the Lord Jesus and the oneness of all the saints. The first year I was in the Local Church was a very blessed year indeed. But every year after that seemed to diminish in the enjoyment and the atmosphere was never the same,after 14 years I left because I could no longer tolerate it that was in 1986. Today I see it as just another Denomination in Christianity.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by JB482

In 1972 when I was invited to go to a meeting during the Kingdom conference at the Los Angeles convention center. After that meeting I asked the brother that invited me,Marshall Davis,I asked him how do you know that this 'Local Church' won't just turn into a Denomination someday like all the other Denominations? He replied 'well if we aren't faithful to the Lord it very well could happen' Now I have to admit at that time in 1972 there was a real blessing on the Local Church with the presence of the Lord Jesus and the oneness of all the saints. The first year I was in the Local Church was a very blessed year indeed. But every year after that seemed to diminish in the enjoyment and the atmosphere was never the same,after 14 years I left because I could no longer tolerate it that was in 1986. Today I see it as just another Denomination in Christianity.

I had the same experience. And it hit me in the face when at the Kingdom conference, Kangas and the other elders in Detroit talked me into coming to the c. in Detroit. Then I learned that Lee took over control of a standing on the ground established local church.

I was young and ignorant, so I shelved it. But it just went on down hill, until it exposed itself right in my face as a cult.

It was long ago, but didn't Marshall Davis show up in the c. in Ft. Lauderale?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It is all so creepily distorted from the truth. The truth is that the body is Christs', the church is Christs', the building is Christs' as the rightful Builder, the work is and was Christs', completed on the cross, the faith given to us is Christs', and on and on. But the LC has this goofy, displaced tug of war going on with ????? Who? Everybody or nobody? for possession of The Church. As if they could claim rightful ownership or headship over what is Christs' to head up. The more I see, the less I understand this power struggle.....it is as if they want to be able to say which of the saints gets to inherit the Lord, which are to be disinherited. Such an awesome position of responsibility was picked up by this ministry, and such terrible abuse of the faithful who get caught up in it. I praise Lord Jesus. He was merciful to let me see the reality of the WL sect, He released me when an attempt was made to bring me into the LC bondage. He is so trustworthy, brothers and sisters......

byHismercy

I couldn’t agree more. Amen and amen!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The more I see, the less I understand this power struggle.....it is as if they want to be able to say which of the saints gets to inherit the Lord, which are to be disinherited. Such an awesome position of responsibility was picked up by this ministry, and such terrible abuse of the faithful who get caught up in it.
byHismercy

Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me: 6 but whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

I had the same experience. And it hit me in the face when at the Kingdom conference, Kangas and the other elders in Detroit talked me into coming to the c. in Detroit. Then I learned that Lee took over control of a standing on the ground established local church.

I was young and ignorant, so I shelved it. But it just went on down hill, until it exposed itself right in my face as a cult.

It was long ago, but didn't Marshall Davis show up in the c. in Ft. Lauderale?

He was prominent in the LC in Gainesville, and buddies with Alan Rick.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

He was prominent in the LC in Gainesville, and buddies with Alan Rick.

Do you know when that was?

[JB482]

Originally Posted by awareness

I had the same experience. And it hit me in the face when at the Kingdom conference, Kangas and the other elders in Detroit talked me into coming to the c. in Detroit. Then I learned that Lee took over control of a standing on the ground established local church.

I was young and ignorant, so I shelved it. But it just went on down hill, until it exposed itself right in my face as a cult.

It was long ago, but didn't Marshall Davis show up in the c. in Ft. Lauderale?

I have no idea what happened to Marshall Davis

[ZNPaaneah]

What turns my stomach is the "perverse way" of WL. He is full of pretense with these brothers about their fellowship, but ignores very genuine concerns, he ignores the most evil sins. Instead those who cover up the sins are promoted, those who stand against the evil are vilified with this pretense that their "rebellion" is to draw disciples away to them.

When I see the OT account of God rebuking Balaam for his perverse way it does not in any way remind me of John So, John Ingalls, or Bill Mallon. Instead it is WL that is beating the donkey. When I read Paul's warning about perverse words to draw away disciples that again reminds me of WL's ministry, not anyone else.

So yes, WL's word is a perverted word.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by JB482

I have no idea what happened to Marshall Davis

Thanks bro, for your response. I like to keep up with brothers I knew, if not just in the meetings and service groups, but also, as HERn called it, those that were "buddies."

I like to see if they went to where I thought they were headed. Example, 'that brother is clearly going to be in leadership.' Only to find that that on fire well spoken brother, that was with the elders in demanding that I follow Witness Lee as the authority of God on the earth "or get out" got out himself, years later.

The one I'm thinking of is living in Colorado. A brother that I was a buddy with before the local church, who dis-predicted in my mind, became an elder in Texas, bumped into him. He's now like brother Untohim, a evangelical Christian, of some sort. And by the way, my friend, that was once an elder in Texas, is now a Native American Shaman.

I don't know why I like to keep up with brothers I knew in the LC. Maybe to see just how duped I was. But some of the brothers, including elders I looked up to, ended up in surprising places, some of them shocking, and mind-blowing, sisters too ; some as to their sexual identities even, and such issues, while in the closet in the LC. Some of them I deeply respected and loved -- surprise surprise.

Marshal Davis, if I'm not mistaken, while in the LC reminded me of another brother that I knew and loved, that I found out years later, after leaving the LC, was doing very bad things to his young daughters ; while appearing to be an exceptional brother, 'on fire for Christ and the Church' brother, that was admired by most every one. What a shocker. I could go on and on, with example after example.

I guess the point is, watch out who you are following. A prime example to us all : Watchman Nee ; with his private life of debauchery.

What I've learned, by keeping up with brothers and sisters since the LC is, prolly, we should shy away from hooking our wagon to any one that falls into the category of being a human.

And I'd like to warn the young ones, who are innocently prone to doing that.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks bro, for your response. I like to keep up with brothers I knew, if not just in the meetings and service groups, but also, as HERn called it, those that were "buddies."

I like to see if they went to where I thought they were headed. Example, 'that brother is clearly going to be in leadership.' Only to find that that on fire well spoken brother, that was with the elders in demanding that I follow Witness Lee as the authority of God on the earth "or get out" got out himself, years later.

The one I'm thinking of is living in Colorado. A brother that I was a buddy with before the local church, who dis-predicted in my mind, became an elder in Texas, bumped into him. He's now like brother Untohim, a evangelical Christian, of some sort. And by the way, my friend, that was once an elder in Texas, is now a Native American Shaman.

I don't know why I like to keep up with brothers I knew in the LC. Maybe to see just how duped I was. But some of the brothers, including elders I looked up to, ended up in surprising places, some of them shocking, and mind-blowing, sisters too ; some as to their sexual identities even, and such issues, while in the closet in the LC. Some of them I deeply respected and loved -- surprise surprise.

Marshal Davis, if I'm not mistaken, while in the LC reminded me of another brother that I knew and loved, that I found out years later, after leaving the LC, was doing very bad things to his young daughters ; while appearing to be an exceptional brother, 'on fire for Christ and the Church' brother, that was admired by most every one. What a shocker. I could go on and on, with example after example.

I guess the point is, watch out who you are following. A prime example to us all : Watchman Nee ; with his private life of debauchery.

What I've learned, by keeping up with brothers and sisters since the LC is, prolly, we should shy away from hooking our wagon to any one that falls into the category of being a human.

And I'd like to warn the young ones, who are innocently prone to doing that.

Your welcome,I appreciate what you had to say.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do you know when that was?

From before 2006 up to 2014 when I think he and Alan tried to start something in Ocala.

Did you know Tracy McDonald and family?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

From before 2006 up to 2014 when I think he and Alan tried to start something in Ocala.

Did you know Tracy McDonald and family?

I did. And I thought the world of them. How are they? What are they up to? Like me, they must be gettin' a little long in the teeth. His kids have to be grown, and over the hill, so to speak.

Whatever they're doing, I'm sure Tracy is still a great guy. At least I hope so, and well. If you see him, or speak to him/them, tell them Harold Dixon says hi, with best wishes.

Surely they'll remember me. My getting booted was a spectacle for all to see. In fact, it was a very outlandish emotionally heated meeting, with ignorant saints, fanatically chanting, "GET OUT, GET OUT" ... AND MORE, -- with the usual pumping of fists, and popping veins, that I realized I was in a cult.

I couldn't go on after that, but many did. I'm friends with some of them today. They eventually got the same treatment as I, over : Lee or Christ. Those not for Lee, were basically told, 'Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya,' with anger filled words. At that point, with all that, they wanted out.

Amen Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What turns my stomach is the "perverse way" of WL. He is full of pretense with these brothers about their fellowship, but ignores very genuine concerns, he ignores the most evil sins. Instead those who cover up the sins are promoted, those who stand against the evil are vilified with this pretense that their "rebellion" is to draw disciples away to them.

When I see the OT account of God rebuking Balaam for his perverse way it does not in any way remind me of John So, John Ingalls, or Bill Mallon. Instead it is WL that is beating the donkey. When I read Paul's warning about perverse words to draw away disciples that again reminds me of WL's ministry, not anyone else.

So yes, WL's word is a perverted word.

This was ansolutely the case. It was absolute loyalty to Lee and Sons that was demanded . . . or else you were publicly shamed, then branded a leprous rebel, and then excommunicated.

But no one within the LC's knew any better except for ones like BP, RG, and Lee's most faithful minions.