The Intensified God

[aron]

Have had long-time issues with the last of the "Processed God" theory, the part about intensification, and wanted to see what others think.

1. How can God be intensified? To me that makes no sense whatever.

2. How can God's intensification be rooted to church degradation? It seems we made God, by our failure, instead of God making us. How can the essential defining aspect of God's existence - "intensified" - be dependent upon our collective status or situation in time? Again, this simply makes no sense. Any common notion of what "God" is supposed to mean in our minds doesn't match the story behind the "Processed God" idea, that of being connected to our failures.

Now, action is different. In a moment in time, "God sent His Only Begotten Son" seems to make sense, as an answer to the failure of humanity, who were made at one moment in time, in His likeness. But not "The Processed God became Intensified to overcome Church Degradation". To me it looks like we made God what God is, not the opposite.

3. There were seven flames burning before the throne in Exodus. "See that you make all things according to the vision (or pattern) that you received on the Holy Mountain". The seven flames of fire were there for, what, two millennia almost, in Israelite history? Then when the apostle John sees them on Patmos, their existence was supposed to be the answer for church degradation? Such an interpretation probably gives a wee bit too much importance to the interpreter, and just a wee bit lacking for the Eternal One.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Have had long-time issues with the last of the "Processed God" theory, the part about intensification, and wanted to see what others think.

1. How can God be intensified? To me that makes no sense whatever.

2. How can God's intensification be rooted to church degradation? It seems we made God, by our failure, instead of God making us. How can the essential defining aspect of God's existence - "intensified" - be dependent upon our collective status or situation in time? Again, this simply makes no sense. Any common notion of what "God" is supposed to mean in our minds doesn't match the story behind the "Processed God" idea, that of being connected to our failures.

I think this originated from an Elders' Training Lee gave on "Incarnation, Inclusion, and Intensification." Here is a short section from the book:

I hope that all the co-workers will see the three stages, the three sections, of Christ: incarnation—the stage of Christ in the flesh; inclusion—the stage of Christ as the life-giving Spirit; and intensification—the stage of Christ as the sevenfold intensified life-giving Spirit. These three stages are the three sections of Christ's history. This means that Christ's history is divided into the section of His incarnation, the section of His inclusion, and the section of His intensification. Therefore, we emphasize these three words—incarnation, inclusion, and intensification—and stress the facts that incarnation produces redeemed people, that inclusion produces the churches, and that intensification produces the overcomers to build up the Body, which consummates in the New Jerusalem as the unique goal of God's economy. This is the revelation in the New Testament.

To be "intensified" by the 7-fold intensified Spirit of God means you become an overcomer.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I hope that all the co-workers will see the three stages, the three sections, of Christ: incarnation—the stage of Christ in the flesh; inclusion—the stage of Christ as the life-giving Spirit; and intensification—the stage of Christ as the sevenfold intensified life-giving Spirit. These three stages are the three sections of Christ's history. This means that Christ's history is divided into the section of His incarnation, the section of His inclusion, and the section of His intensification. Therefore, we emphasize these three words—incarnation, inclusion, and intensification.....

No wonder there are however many linear feet of the collected works of Lee......all of that could have easily been condensed into one short sentence rather than repeating the exact same thing over and over.......

On aron's point, it is laughable now to even think that the degradation of the church was something God had to "adjust" His person to even overcome. Does Lee think that God in His own right, pre-intensification, was unable to overcome the pitiful degradation of the church? He can do whatever He wants! He is the thing that holds the entire universe together! God is God, which is max intensity simply in His existence. He Himself in His person doesn't need to be "intensified", this implies the church's degradation is remotely powerful enough to worry or defeat God!

[JJ]

Lee had coined the term “seven fold intensified Spirit” and the same explanation for it “to combat church degradation and to produce overcomers” by the time he gave the “Life Study of Revelation” “Training” in the 1970’s. And, local church saints had accepted it as true. Later Lee reiterated it during his “Consummation of the New Testament”, “Crystallization of” “Messages”, and “Elders trainings”. Again we see Lee was adding words we don’t see in the Bible and as aron pointed out missing the pattern of the seven lamps on the lamp stand throughout the Old Testament. He also was exhorting us to do and be something “intensified” scripture never exhorts us to do or be.

Revelation warns us that all the plagues written in it are reserved for those who add to or take away from it. Best to listen to what The Spirit actually says to the churches, give praise & blessing, honor, and glory to God for what is plainly stated.

[Cal]

Lee lifted "seven-fold Spirit" right out Revelation 1:4 in the Amplified Bible. It's right there in black and white.

4 John to the seven assemblies (churches) that are in Asia: May grace (God's unmerited favor) be granted to you and spiritual peace (the peace of Christ's kingdom) from Him Who is and Who was and Who is to come, and from the seven Spirits [the sevenfold Holy Spirit 4d] before His throne, [Isa. 11:2.]

According to note 4d in the Amplified Bible, the teaching of the seven-fold Spirit originated with Richard of St. Victor, as cited by Richard C. Trench in his book Synonyms of the New Testament (1860).

Richard of St. Victor was a Medieval Scottish philosopher and theologian and one of the most influential religious thinkers of his time. He died in 1173.

Richard C. Trench was an Anglican archbishop, author and poet.

Lee held a conference on "The Visions of Ezekiel" in the 1960s, I believe. There he touted the "seven-fold intensified Spirit for the completion of the age" as one of his great revelations. I don't recall him giving either Richard or the Amplified Bible any credit.

I can follow that the seven Spirits are for the completion of the age, because seven is the Biblical number for completion and perfection in time. But the "intensified" part is total speculation. Why would God need to be intensified? Isn't he intense enough as he is?

The only intensification I ever saw come from this was the Lee faithful's intensified frenzy about Spirit intensifying and age completing. As far as I can tell nothing came from it other that some yelling and jumping around, which eventually fizzled. Who in the LR still talks about the subject, let alone experiences it?

Seven Spirits possibly refers to Isaiah 11:2, which the Amplified also references. It describes seven (seven-fold) aspects of the Spirit.

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him — the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. Isaiah 11:2

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Have had long-time issues with the last of the "Processed God" theory, the part about intensification, and wanted to see what others think.

1. How can God be intensified? To me that makes no sense whatever.

2. How can God's intensification be rooted to church degradation? It seems we made God, by our failure, instead of God making us. How can the essential defining aspect of God's existence - "intensified" - be dependent upon our collective status or situation in time? Again, this simply makes no sense. Any common notion of what "God" is supposed to mean in our minds doesn't match the story behind the "Processed God" idea, that of being connected to our failures.

Now, action is different. In a moment in time, "God sent His Only Begotten Son" seems to make sense, as an answer to the failure of humanity, who were made at one moment in time, in His likeness. But not "The Processed God became Intensified to overcome Church Degradation". To me it looks like we made God what God is, not the opposite.

3. There were seven flames burning before the throne in Exodus. "See that you make all things according to the vision (or pattern) that you received on the Holy Mountain". The seven flames of fire were there for, what, two millennia almost, in Israelite history? Then when the apostle John sees them on Patmos, their existence was supposed to be the answer for church degradation? Such an interpretation probably gives a wee bit too much importance to the interpreter, and just a wee bit lacking for the Eternal One.

Methinks those having trouble reaching God are the ones that want an intensified God, to make up for their lack.

In short, Lee and Co. weren't 'getting there,' so they cooked up an intensified God.

I see it as psychological warfare on the minds of the faithful, keeping the faithful, by tell them that because of them, God has become intensified ... or God becomes more God than He already is.

But from where I'm sitting now, I'm having problems with holding back a big : Bahahahahahaha !!! While at the same time feeling sorry for them. Cuz they're living in a fantasy world.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

God is God, which is max intensity simply in His existence.

God is by definition not intensifiable.

James(1:17) wrote that there's no "variableness" with God, no shadow cast by turning. God is the same always, the Eternal One. God spoke and the universe came into being - isn't that intense enough? God has to be sevenfold (!) intensified to get us through our Christian day? We may have lacks but God does not.

The Bible text didn't give us the sevenfold intensified God, but Witness Lee did (probably borrowed, as most of his ideas were, without attribution). He perhaps felt an exegetical need - how to reconcile "There is one Spirit" of Ephesians 4:4 with the seven spirits seen by John in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6?

Rather than exegetical formulae ("one Spirit, intensified"), I look to scripture. A text that WL cavalierly dismissed as "fallen human concepts" says that "The voice of the LORD is powerful/the voice of the LORD is full of majesty/the voice of the LORD breaks the cedars of Lebanon... the voice of the LORD cleaves out flames of fire" (Psa 29:4-7 RecV). The KJV says "The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire" and the YLT says "The voice of the LORD is hewing out fiery flames".

There's one Person walking in the midst of the seven flames burning before God. The LORD has one voice (Logos, Word) but this voice cleaves out multiple flames of fire (Psa 29:7). God has now spoken to us in the Son (Heb 1:1), who clearly has multiple spiritual venues for action in the NT.

"You will see heavens open and the angels of God [note the plural] ascending and descending on the Son of Man".

"I also am a man under authority, and I have servants [plural] under me..."

"You will see the Son of Man coming in glory with the glory of the Father and the holy angels [plural]"

He's called LORD of Hosts for a reason...

On the day of Pentecost, when the remaining disciples were praying, and tongues of fire rested upon them, how many spirits were there? 120 spirits, or one Spirit? I daresay it was the same One Spirit of Ephesians 4:4. Multiple simultaneous expressions of the One Spirit of God don't create a need for exegetical cartwheels. "There is one Spirit" is not threatened by Acts 2:3, nor by Revelation 1:4.

There were seven flames of fire burning before the mercy seat all through the OT, and everybody knew it, including the writers and readers of the NT. It's not that mysterious or esoteric. We don't need to re-invent God to reconcile scripture. We rather do it to pacify our imaginations.

Revelation 8:2 "Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them..." Are we sure this isn't really one angel, sevenfold intensified? Why not? (Besides the fact that it makes no sense). Or the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 - it's not one church sevenfold intensified? Or the four living creatures - not just one creature "fourfold"?? No, because it makes no sense to us, so we (rightly) reject it. Then how did WL's teaching nullify our God-given common sense?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Then how did WL's teaching nullify our God-given common sense?

We were suckers for it. We wanted it, needed it, went for it ... and discovered to late : what were we thinking? Oh. We weren't thinkin'. If we were we wouldn't have done it. Check your thinkin' at the door. It's not wanted here.

[aron]

Isaiah 40:25,26

"'To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?' says the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name.
Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing."

God's great power and mighty strength doesn't need intensification and I daresay that Isaiah would laugh if one suggested otherwise. Now we may need intensification in our living and experience to overcome the dark age. I do. But WL taught that God needed to be processed to consummate as the intensified life - giving spirit to overcome church degradation.

The "became" and "processed" and "intensification" and "consummated" all indicate transformation or qualitative change. I'm not sure what scripturally-based understanding of the Judeo-Christian God jibes with that. If any.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

But WL taught that God needed to be processed to consummate as the intensified life - giving spirit to overcome church degradation.

Yep. Falling short it's time to bring in the intensified God.

It's another mind control abstract, impossible to grok, used to keep the cult member's minds in a promised delusional fantasy land.

Turns out Lee was a talented Bible conman. And he's still conning, even long after dying. Still today he's the personality cult leader of the local church.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

Lee had coined the term “seven fold intensified Spirit” and the same explanation for it “to combat church degradation and to produce overcomers” by the time he gave the “Life Study of Revelation” “Training” in the 1970’s. And, local church saints had accepted it as true. Later Lee reiterated it during his “Consummation of the New Testament”, “Crystallization of” “Messages”, and “Elders trainings”. Again we see Lee was adding words we don’t see in the Bible and as aron pointed out missing the pattern of the seven lamps on the lamp stand throughout the Old Testament. He also was exhorting us to do and be something “intensified” scripture never exhorts us to do or be.

Revelation warns us that all the plagues written in it are reserved for those who add to or take away from it. Best to listen to what The Spirit actually says to the churches, give praise & blessing, honor, and glory to God for what is plainly stated.

Suppose Revelation 1:4 had said, "Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, which is the intensification of His Processed Triune Self to overcome the degradation of the church..."? Then Witness Lee would have a pretty good case. But it doesn't say that and his case is weak, based only on his logic and for his need for it to be so. And his logic has a lot going against it.

So the faithful are left with, "WL's the Seer of the Divine Revelation, and Deputy God, with God's oracle, so if he said it's so, then it's really so". And in the LC, that's the basis of understanding God. Not scripture but that someone has said it's so. LC members have fallen for the classic confidence game. The MOTA wanted them to believe that what he said is so. (Look at how many times WL said, "We must see..." and "We need to appreciate..." he was imposing his will on yours).

Today, Living Stream Ministry recruiters will enter a college campus and find you, the uncertain sophomore, and they'll need you to believe. You mistake their earnestness for sincerity. So you go along, not because their message of a Processed and Intensified God is true or even plausibly defensible, but because someone wants, even desperately needs, you to believe it's true. Their happiness and collective existence depend on it. If you become their "co-dependent", you'll enter into a dysfunctional relationship based on a mistaken belief that you can satisfy their unmet needs.

[Cal]

If the Spirit must be intensified seven times to overcome the degradation of the Church, how many times must he be intensified to overcome the degradation of "the Lord's Recovery?"

Just wonderin'.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Rather than exegetical formulae ("one Spirit, intensified"), I look to scripture. A text that WL cavalierly dismissed as "fallen human concepts" says that "The voice of the LORD is powerful/the voice of the LORD is full of majesty/the voice of the LORD breaks the cedars of Lebanon... the voice of the LORD cleaves out flames of fire" (Psa 29:4-7 RecV). The KJV says "The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire" and the YLT says "The voice of the LORD is hewing out fiery flames"

Another scripture says, "He makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flaming fire." All the writers and readers of the NT would have had such texts at their disposal to create common, shared meaning, and there is no sense given that they dismissed them as fallen human concepts, only useful in showing what not to think. On the contrary. The presence of multiple flames, or spirits, before God's throne in no wise obviates the "one spirit" of Ephesians 4:4.

Revelation 1:1 says that God made his revelation known to his servant John by sending his angel, but does that single angel of God somehow conflict with the multitude of angels known? Of course not. So why does the presence of seven spirits create an exegetical crisis requiring such conceptual cartwheels as an intensified God?

[JJ]

Great points guys.

Some neat visual aids and commentary re Tabernacle as type of Jesus, including artist rendering of lamp stand are in this link:
http://www.emmanuelenid.org/index.ph...g-close-to-god
No Lee wasn’t the only one who saw connection to Christ and the Church. Just Google Exodus Lampstand and select Images and look how many articles there are.
The picture of the high priest lighting the lamp stand is very similar to what John saw the glorified Jesus doing and helped me relate even better to aron’s opening post.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

Great points guys.

Some neat visual aids and commentary re Tabernacle as type of Jesus, including artist rendering of lamp stand are in this link:
http://www.emmanuelenid.org/index.ph...g-close-to-god
No Lee wasn’t the only one who saw connection to Christ and the Church. Just Google Exodus Lampstand and select Images and look how many articles there are.
The picture of the high priest lighting the lamp stand is very similar to what John saw the glorified Jesus doing and helped me relate even better to aron’s opening post.

Thanks for the link. As you can see from the pictures on the linked page, there are depictions of the seven lamps of fire burning before the ark long before the "church became degraded". So to surmise that the seven lamps burning before the throne in Revelation are the "intensified life-giving Spirit" due to degradation of the Christian church makes no sense to me, nor would it have to first-century readers.

There's an interesting image given by Jesus at the end of the first chapter of the fourth gospel. Jesus says, "You'll see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man." Jesus is of course directly referencing Jacob's dream in Genesis 28, but consider the parallels with the lampstand. The lampstand is full of oil. The oil is ascending and descending in the hollow tubes of the lampstand (as it fills, and burns up). The oil signifies the Holy Spirit. The angels, of course, ascend and descend in accordance with the Holy Spirit of God.

In Revelation 2 and 3, notice that the Angel is sent to the churches, and "what the Spirit is speaking to the churches". And look at many parallels elsewhere in the NT, for example, Gabriel speaking to Mary: "I stand before God, and I was sent to give you glad tidings of great joy." Or the seven eyes of God, that run to and fro on the earth. There's an assumed vertical traffic (heaven to earth) followed by a horizontal traffic (to and fro all over the earth).

So the lampstand can convey a lot. I'm not a "learned man", but such associations are pretty easily suggested from the text. But one association not suggested to me is a seven-fold intensified God.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

God is God, which is max intensity simply in His existence. He Himself in His person doesn't need to be "intensified", this implies the church's degradation is remotely powerful enough to worry or defeat God!

To me, this is the biggest point to be made regarding God being "intensified". God cannot be more intense than he already has been for eternity. As mere mortals, we can only have God's intensity partially revealed to us, and only in finite, measured "doses". This is why the children of Israel were not allowed to go up to the mountain. This is why only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies, and only once a year on the Day of Atonement. This is why "no man can see me and live".

Maybe John's vision of "the seven Spirits who are before his throne" was like the Lord Jesus being transfigured on the mountain before Peter, James and John. They got a glimpse of the glory of the Lord Jesus. The Lord did not become "intensified", but rather his glory was partially revealed to them, and only for a brief moment. Peter later related this experience in his 2nd epistle: we were eyewitnesses of his majesty(2 Pet 1:16)

The bottom line is that this teaching of Witness Lee (God being intensified), like so man of his teachings, while ostensibly novel and insightful, is really just self-serving and mere conjecture (aka: an uneducated guess) Search the scriptures, and the teachings and commentaries of legitimate, recognized, orthodox Christian teachers, scholars and writers throughout history - you will be hard pressed to find any of them who have interpreted "the seven Spirits" as "God being intensified to produce overcomers".
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

you will be hard pressed to find any of them who have interpreted "the seven Spirits" as "God being intensified to produce overcomers".
-

But don't forget that, Lee coming up with new and novel, bombastic, and even iconoclastic, notions -- such as an intensified God -- serves rather to merchandise those in his movement. That's warned about also in 2 Peter -- 2:3

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The bottom line is that this teaching of Witness Lee (God being intensified), like so man of his teachings, while ostensibly novel and insightful, is really just self-serving and mere conjecture (aka: an uneducated guess) Search the scriptures, and the teachings and commentaries of legitimate, recognized, orthodox Christian teachers, scholars and writers throughout history - you will be hard pressed to find any of them who have interpreted "the seven Spirits" as "God being intensified to produce overcomers".
-

Lee had to be innovative to solidify his status as a modern-day seer. That he pushed against orthodoxy was considered by him and his followers a strength. Whether he was actually correct was secondary to his "gift" for wringing novel teachings from the Bible and elsewhere.

The problem is... what if he was wrong? Who vets him? How is his teaching validated? What is the fail-safe? How does one protect himself against any of his mistakes?

If you are a member of the LR there is no good answer to any of these questions. Basically you've bet the farm that Lee was right about everything. If Lee goes down in flames, so do you.

You might just need an intensified God to save you from that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Lee had to be innovative to solidify his status as a modern-day seer. That he pushed against orthodoxy was considered by him and his followers a strength. Whether he was actually correct was secondary to his "gift" for wringing novel teachings from the Bible and elsewhere.

The problem is... what if he was wrong? Who vets him? How is his teaching validated? What is the fail-safe? How does one protect himself against any of his mistakes?

If you are a member of the LR there is no good answer to any of these questions. Basically you've bet the farm that Lee was right about everything. If Lee goes down in flames, so do you.

You might just need an intensified God to save you from that.

Amen to all that. But given Lee's history methinks it was all for the merchandising ; providing new abstract toys to continue to bewitch money from all the pockets.

But where do they get more new merch, new toys-in-the-sky -- or from somewhere -- now? The Blended's aren't up to it. They're just Lee Parrots. Their coffers must be suffering. But they're still merchandising ... using Lee's old worn out rehashed "new deep profound insights."

And brother Igzy, questioning isn't allowed in the LR. I don't ever remember a question and answer segment after Lee's speakings. Lee wasn't to be questioned.

[byHismercy]

This is a little bit of a parallel road but this conversation assumes the certain degradation of the church. I keep wondering what scripture says about that. Does Gods' word really say the church is degraded, even? I was reading through Matthew chapter 13, I believe....and Jesus is expounding on the parable of the tares among the wheat because His disciples pressed Him for explanation. My take away is that God is not worried about degradation in His body. In fact, the polluting tares He explicitly commands to be left right where they are, right alongside His planted saints! More damage would be done to His body by uprooting these tares, who were planted by Gods' enemy. He wants the tares left until His harvest. He does not seem to be concerned with this degradation.....but rather His solution to this mixture is already laid out. The tares will be burned at the Lords' appointed harvest time. It just seems to me that this matter of degradation in the body was possibly another Lee invention that I bit on and got hooked by. But what does scripture really say?? Do you have any insights, saints?

Also, I agree with untoHim and others.....God is unchanging. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the beginning and the end, invariable.

byHismercy

[Ohio]

The church in Thyatira surely was in error, even quite sick, promoting evil Jezebel, yet the Lord did not call on the other churches to condemn her. In fact, I always found it interesting that the Lord exhorted those who would hear to overcome where they were without leaving.

In his final letter, Paul acknowledged that the church of God was a great house with both honorable and dishonorable vessels, apparently side by side. His exhortation was to depart from unrighteousness, and to cleanse oneself, rather than to form a new church or forsake the old one.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't ever remember a question and answer segment after Lee's speakings. Lee wasn't to be questioned.

Actually, I recall one. It was at a training, after the Max Rappaport debacle, but before Lee consolidated full control over everything. People wanted some answers and Lee acquiesced.

I believe it lasted all of one day at the end of two training sessions. Probably a half-hour in total before Lee lost patience with it and decided it was unnecessary.

There were some good questions. One brother ask Lee to explain what "building" was. I don't remember the answer.

And there were some no so great questions. Someone asked Lee to talk about dreams and their meaning. I recall Lee answering, "A dream is just a dream." Another brother asked about aliens from other planets. Lee answered, "Just take care of Earth." That question was pretty much the nail in the coffin.

I remember thinking people weren't asking the obvious important questions, but I was too young and timid to do so myself.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It just seems to me that this matter of degradation in the body was possibly another Lee invention that I bit on and got hooked by. But what does scripture really say?? Do you have any insights, saints?

The Lord never tells us to discern churches or believers, and in fact commands us not to discern believers (Matt 13:29-30).

He does, however, tell us to discern apostles and prophets (Rev 2:2; Matt 7:15-20).

Now... isn't that interesting?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Lord never tells us to discern churches or believers, and in fact commands us not to discern believers (Matt 13:29-30).

He does, however, tell us to discern apostles and prophets (Rev 2:2; Matt 7:15-20).

Now... isn't that interesting?

Yes, this conversation has taken an interesting turn. The Lord to my memory never warned about degraded flocks of sheep, but rather about ravening wolves who disguised themselves as sheep.

Lord have mercy. Open our eyes.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I remember thinking people weren't asking the obvious important questions, but I was too young and timid to do so myself.

You can ask pretty much any question in the LC as long as you don't make the MOTA look bad, you know, "lose face". Also don't make his pillars look bad, his supporting brothers. Also don't make the churches affiliated with his ministry look bad. And don't question his teachings, because that shows that you are rebellious, independent, divisive, and ambitious. For that matter, don't ask anything that might make you stand out in any way. Just blend in.

Other than that though, you're pretty much free to ask whatever you want.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes, this conversation has taken an interesting turn. The Lord to my memory never warned about degraded flocks of sheep, but rather about ravening wolves who disguised themselves as sheep.

Lord have mercy. Open our eyes.

Perhaps the "intensified" God is needed to realize this.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The church in Thyatira surely was in error, even quite sick, promoting evil Jezebel, yet the Lord did not call on the other churches to condemn her. In fact, I always found it interesting that the Lord exhorted those who would hear to overcome where they were without leaving.

In his final letter, Paul acknowledged that the church of God was a great house with both honorable and dishonorable vessels, apparently side by side. His exhortation was to depart from unrighteousness, and to cleanse oneself, rather than to form a new church or forsake the old one.

Christian leaders from Luther, to some among the Brethren, and Lee pointed us to Revelation 18:4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/18.htm as God’s call to leave “the degraded church” and join theirs saying Babylon the Great symbolized it mixed with the world, its antiChrist leaders and human government. Then they did things that abused their authority towards those that followed them at some point. What does the fornicating great Babylon really signify? And what does “Come out of her my children” mean in that verse?

[Timotheist]

Lee got it backwards. God was not "processed" nor was he "intensified", as many thoughts on this thread express.

It is we who are being processed for God's enjoyment.

The evolution of God's relationship with man intensifies as man changes, becomes more holy. Apparently holiness requires a "process".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Christian leaders from Luther, to some among the Brethren, and Lee pointed us to Revelation 18:4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/18.htm as God’s call to leave “the degraded church” and join theirs saying Babylon the Great symbolized it mixed with the world, its antiChrist leaders and human government. Then they did things that abused their authority towards those that followed them at some point. What does the fornicating great Babylon really signify? And what does “Come out of her my children” mean in that verse?

Many, as you said, have speculated about this verse . . .

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:“ ‘Come out of her, my people,’

so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,

Some have even left the LC's based on this verse.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is a little bit of a parallel road but this conversation assumes the certain degradation of the church. I keep wondering what scripture says about that. Does Gods' word really say the church is degraded, even? I was reading through Matthew chapter 13, I believe....and Jesus is expounding on the parable of the tares among the wheat because His disciples pressed Him for explanation. My take away is that God is not worried about degradation in His body. In fact, the polluting tares He explicitly commands to be left right where they are, right alongside His planted saints! More damage would be done to His body by uprooting these tares, who were planted by Gods' enemy. He wants the tares left until His harvest. He does not seem to be concerned with this degradation.....but rather His solution to this mixture is already laid out. The tares will be burned at the Lords' appointed harvest time. It just seems to me that this matter of degradation in the body was possibly another Lee invention that I bit on and got hooked by. But what does scripture really say?? Do you have any insights, saints?

Also, I agree with untoHim and others.....God is unchanging. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the beginning and the end, invariable.

byHismercy

Matthew 24:12b “..the love of the many will have grown cold” has been cited by Lee and others as the Lord Jesus’ prediction of church degradation. I read it in context here https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/24.htm
It is part of a long discourse Jesus gave in answer to the disciples’ question of “what the signs would be of His coming”; it would occur as Christ’s followers were persecuted, delivered up and killed; and the ones enduring to the end will be saved. So, strictly speaking “the love of the many growing cold” is a sign Jesus’ Kingdom is coming, and an exhortation to endure in spite of persecution, not “the church is degraded, leave it and start your own or join a better one”.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

strictly speaking “the love of the many growing cold” is a sign Jesus’ Kingdom is coming, and an exhortation to endure in spite of persecution, not “the church is degraded, leave it and start your own or join a better one”.

What helped me immeasurably was Paul's verse, "in that [position, situation, circumstance] which each of you were called, in this remain." God in his wisdom made you what you are, and your situation what it is. The enemy roars like a lion and wants you to run. God says, "Believe, and stand fast". Yes there is the call to come out of Babylon but today I see that as more spiritual than physical. Babylon is everywhere, and can be anywhere.

Originally Posted by JJ

Christian leaders from Luther, to some among the Brethren, and Lee pointed us to Revelation 18:4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/18.htm as God’s call to leave “the degraded church” and join theirs saying Babylon the Great symbolized it mixed with the world, its antiChrist leaders and human government. Then they did things that abused their authority towards those that followed them at some point.

So you're in the Roman Catholic Church or the Russian Orthodox Church or the Southern Baptist Fundamentalist and some "recovery" or "restoration" preacher comes along and says that your situation is hopelessly degraded and you have to leave and start over in their "recovered" or "restored" church paradise. You know, the "proper ground"... you're "caught by the vision of the age" and off you go... "Splendid church life his green garden" you all sing. Then the Apostle starts to do wacky stuff. (use your imagination here, or your own history). Then what? Run away? Run where? You already "left Babylon", now what?

Paul's word in 1 Cor 7:20 helped me tremendously. I was an inveterate church-hopper. But from then on, I stopped running. Wherever I was, there I was. God wants to meet me there. If you look at your situation and say, "If I perish I perish. I am the Lord's", then God can use you. God may indeed want to throw the mountain into the sea. But do you have faith like the mustard seed? Or do you think the mustard seed is over the hill on the "proper ground" somewhere? No, it is within you, and has been there all along. Forget about the "degraded church" and the "glorious church" and find the seed. Do not despise the day of small things. It is right there, waiting for your focused attention.

Like Timotheist said, God wants to elevate your experience. God is already quite intense as it is.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is a little bit of a parallel road but this conversation assumes the certain degradation of the church. I keep wondering what scripture says about that. Does Gods' word really say the church is degraded, even? I was reading through Matthew chapter 13, I believe....and Jesus is expounding on the parable of the tares among the wheat because His disciples pressed Him for explanation. My take away is that God is not worried about degradation in His body. In fact, the polluting tares He explicitly commands to be left right where they are, right alongside His planted saints! More damage would be done to His body by uprooting these tares, who were planted by Gods' enemy. He wants the tares left until His harvest. He does not seem to be concerned with this degradation.....but rather His solution to this mixture is already laid out. The tares will be burned at the Lords' appointed harvest time. It just seems to me that this matter of degradation in the body was possibly another Lee invention that I bit on and got hooked by. But what does scripture really say?? Do you have any insights, saints?

Also, I agree with untoHim and others.....God is unchanging. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the beginning and the end, invariable.

byHismercy

Christ said in Matthew 24, that when he returns, "one will be taken and one will be left." implying that amongst his true believers there will be, like you said, tares or unbelievers. Jesus is letting us know that no earthly congregation will be 100% pure. That's why I always say it'll be a work of God himself that'll one day coalesce his true church in the air and until that day comes no other man will accomplish this because it's just not written in scripture.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Paul's word in 1 Cor 7:20 helped me tremendously. I was an inveterate church-hopper. But from then on, I stopped running. Wherever I was, there I was. God wants to meet me there.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Jesus is letting us know that no earthly congregation will be 100% pure. That's why I always say it'll be a work of God himself that'll one day coalesce his true church in the air and until that day comes no other man will accomplish this because it's just not written in scripture.

Agreed. Great fellowship for all.

There was a time when Nee and Lee visited with other churches, and Nee would say, "there's no life here."

There was a time when a LC friend and I visited other churches, and he would say, "there's no life here."

There is life, because we can find the Lord of life everywhere. Recovering "judgaholics" need only the eyes of faith to find Him.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is a little bit of a parallel road but this conversation assumes the certain degradation of the church. I keep wondering what scripture says about that. Does Gods' word really say the church is degraded, even? I was reading through Matthew chapter 13, I believe....and Jesus is expounding on the parable of the tares among the wheat because His disciples pressed Him for explanation. My take away is that God is not worried about degradation in His body. In fact, the polluting tares He explicitly commands to be left right where they are, right alongside His planted saints! More damage would be done to His body by uprooting these tares, who were planted by Gods' enemy. He wants the tares left until His harvest. He does not seem to be concerned with this degradation.....but rather His solution to this mixture is already laid out. The tares will be burned at the Lords' appointed harvest time. It just seems to me that this matter of degradation in the body was possibly another Lee invention that I bit on and got hooked by.

On another thread, I commented on the LC idea of "recovered lampstands" on the earth today. I said, in the NT era there was a lampstand in Corinth, according to our NT-derived understanding. There was a "church in Corinth", problems and all. Paul wrote to them. Now, to my understanding, there have been Christians in Corinth ever since then. So when did the "lampstand get removed" from Corinth, and why "take the ground" today to "recover the lampstand"? In the LC the story was that the church got "degraded" and now it's being "recovered" and so we place a lampstand (or God does, with our meeting). But this is a kind of Kipling-esque "Just So Story" where any supporting details could actually mar the narrative.

Truth is, the "recovered lampstand" is simply a church group affiliated with a book publisher in Anaheim California USA. No affiliation with publisher, no lampstand.

[JJ]

Related, but a little different topic is Lee’s “God was processed to get into man that man may become God in life and nature but not the Godhead” statement.

He often cited 1 Cor 15:45b when he talked about God being processed.

Here is a link to that verse in a Greek-English parallel version.

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-45.htm
The context of this verse is Paul’s long discussion describing how resurrection is such an important part of our faith and how Christ as the first fruit of resurrection precedes his believers who are sown as earthly bodies and raised with spiritual bodies who will follow later at the last trumpet. It includes a comparison of Adam and Christ’s bodies’ nature (heavenly vs earthly) and order (earthly first then heavenly) and includes how flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but those who bear the image of the heavenly will.

So is this section of 1 Corinthians about God being processed at all? Is that the point?

[JJ]

Another favorite verse fragment Lee cited when speaking of God being processed was from 2 Cor 3:17 “Now the Lord is the Spirit..”
It is part of Paul’s description of the ministry of the Spirit the apostles were carrying out versus Moses’ law of letters.

Here is the Greek- English link to that verse:
https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

I ask the same thing here. Is this verse about God being processed?

[JJ]

Lee also used a fragment of John 7:37 “...the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not glorified yet.” when he spoke of God being processed.

Here is the Greek-English parallel of that verse. https://biblehub.com/text/john/7-39.htm
It is John’s inserted explanation of why Jesus on the last, great day, of the feast stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”

Is this verse about God being processed? And what about Lee’s use of three verse fragments and the Old Testament description of how the anointing oil was made to craft his “God was processed” doctrine?

And, is this another borrowed doctrine from others he took credit for?