Witness Lee Training Centers

[recoveringCK]

Other posts suggest the 10 day twice a year trainings were formed to raise money to pay for debts WL incurred with the Daystar venture.

The full time training began in 1977. One of the first training centers was on the east coast Boston area.

Currently, the postgraduate FTT is strongly emphasized in the LC “recovery.” Trainees are treated as celebrities. Much energy is directed toward funneling young people into the training. Young people are told the most important point is to marry someone in the church. Prospective couples are encouraged to emphasize their commitment to the church prior to marriage.

At the same time, young people are taught it is bad to relate to members of the opposite sex before marriage. Conversation is not encouraged. If accepted, this could lead to inability to relate to the opposite sex. It may contribute to other social dysfunction. There are reports of people being “ruined for the church” as if that were a good thing. Others on this discussion board have mentioned social dysfunction out of the church.

Trainees who marry other trainees are more likely to remain in the church as a couple and insist their children do the same than a non-FTT graduate. Elders or BBs sometimes act as matchmakers. When these marriages go well, the couple will likely be strongly devoted to the church leadership. If the marriages do not go well, they go away and do not cause much trouble. Before LCD, there was not a way for ex-members to communicate what was happening.

What they are building is not the church as the bride of Christ but a cadre of devotees. Is teaching people to not relate to the opposite sex is a part of funneling young people into the FTT?

Error correction, comments and additional information is invited

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Other posts suggest the 10 day twice a year trainings were formed to raise money to pay for debts WL incurred with the Daystar venture.

The full time training began in 1977. One of the first training centers was on the east coast Boston area.

We must be talking about two types of trainings here.

The trainings formed to pay Daystar debts began ~1974 with the Gospel of John, then Romans, Hebrews, Revelations, etc. These are the trainings held summer and winter for all the saints.

The "FTT" Full-Time Trainings began much later in Taipei during the "New Way" movement, thus it was referred to as FTTT. These are mostly two year (4 semester) trainings for recent college graduates.


Is this your understanding too?

[recoveringCK]

I did not recall 1974 was the year the Anaheim training started. The first 10 day training, the Training in Life, was at the Anaheim Convention Center. Max delivered many messages at that training. Is that the training series started to help pay off Daystar debts?

There were tours of the Daystar motor home, but I don't recall the years Daystar was active or the year the 10 day trainings started or realize they were connected.

So the FTT began in Taiwan.

What happened to the attendees of the first FTT in the Boston area. Many of the trainees would have been first generation CKs. It has been said most of them disconnected from the LC after that. What happened there? What happened to them?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

I did not recall 1974 was the year the Anaheim training started. The first 10 day training, the Training in Life, was at the Anaheim Convention Center. Max delivered many messages at that training. Is that the training series started to help pay off Daystar debts?

There were tours of the Daystar motor home, but I don't recall the years Daystar was active or the year the 10 day trainings started or realize they were connected.

So the FTT began in Taiwan.

What happened to the attendees of the first FTT in the Boston area. Many of the trainees would have been first generation CKs. It has been said most of them disconnected from the LC after that. What happened there? What happened to them?

Not sure when exactly LSM began charging money for their teachings. I believe this first official "Life Study" training was in 1975.

I have heard that this was Philip Lee's idea, and that Max rose to prominence at LSM by asking saints far and wide to consider their Daystar investment a "donation." Those who screamed bloody murder, however, were repaid.

I know little about Boston. Sal Benoit, their leader, left with Max. The year after all the young people moved to Boston, I heard there was like 50 weddings.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Other posts suggest the 10 day twice a year trainings were formed to raise money to pay for debts WL incurred with the Daystar venture.

The full time training began in 1977. One of the first training centers was on the east coast Boston area.

Currently, the postgraduate FTT is strongly emphasized in the LC “recovery.” Trainees are treated as celebrities. Much energy is directed toward funneling young people into the training. Young people are told the most important point is to marry someone in the church. Prospective couples are encouraged to emphasize their commitment to the church prior to marriage.

At the same time, young people are taught it is bad to relate to members of the opposite sex before marriage. Conversation is not encouraged. If accepted, this could lead to inability to relate to the opposite sex. It may contribute to other social dysfunction. There are reports of people being “ruined for the church” as if that were a good thing. Others on this discussion board have mentioned social dysfunction out of the church.

Trainees who marry other trainees are more likely to remain in the church as a couple and insist their children do the same than a non-FTT graduate. Elders or BBs sometimes act as matchmakers. When these marriages go well, the couple will likely be strongly devoted to the church leadership. If the marriages do not go well, they go away and do not cause much trouble. Before LCD, there was not a way for ex-members to communicate what was happening.

What they are building is not the church as the bride of Christ but a cadre of devotees. Is teaching people to not relate to the opposite sex is a part of funneling young people into the FTT?

Error correction, comments and additional information is invited

I never paid for the training's. They were called conferences, of 2 meetings a day for a month. Lived with saints, that paid our support. Everybody was totally given to "Christ and the Church" back then.

I remember being told that they were charging $50 to attend. I was taken aback. I said to myself, I won't be paying. I paid 10% every week. That was enough, plus other needs, like a meeting hall (that sold at a profit, but my money had become God's money). Haha

That happened around 77 or 78. When I was in the middle of a turmoil over the MOTA ... that eventually got me excommunicated.

Jesus never charged. And look what he was delivering.

[recoveringCK]

Originally Posted by awareness

... that eventually got me excommunicated.

I heard in the WL LC that only happens to honorable men who are whistle-blowers and publicly speak the truth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

I heard in the WL LC that only happens to honorable men who are whistle-blowers and publicly speak the truth.

awareness was an honorable man who became a whistle-blower and publicly spoke the truth and got excommunicated by Mel Porter in Miami.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

awareness was an honorable man who became a whistle-blower and publicly spoke the truth and got excommunicated by Mel Porter in Miami.

Brother Ohio is a sharp cookie. I drew the line early ; before Ingalls, Mallon, Max, Philip, et al, and even "Trainings."

If the MOTA flow wouldn't have blown me out, Trainings sure would have.

Thank you Mel Porter, for bringing from Anaheim the NEW "Flow of Oneness" ; a oneness supported by a couple of scripture verses, and accomplished by following the apostle of God on the earth, the oracle of God, and even more, the authority of God on the earth, Witness Lee.

Thank you for saving me years of more than I could ever stand with.

Trainings? What a joke! Lee indoctrination centers.

[recoveringCK]

Hopefully everyone is enjoying the discussions.

Let me again ask an earlier question.

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Is teaching people to not relate to the opposite sex is a part of funneling young people into the FTT?

One "benefit" of the FTT is many of the trainees marry a fellow trainee after the training. If a young brother or sister graduated from college and had difficulty relating to the opposite sex, that could provide additional motivation for them to go to the FTT.

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not sure when exactly LSM began charging money for their teachings. I believe this first official "Life Study" training was in 1975.

I have heard that this was Philip Lee's idea, and that Max rose to prominence at LSM by asking saints far and wide to consider their Daystar investment a "donation." Those who screamed bloody murder, however, were repaid.

I know little about Boston. Sal Benoit, their leader, left with Max. The year after all the young people moved to Boston, I heard there was like 50 weddings.

I went to Boston in 1977 when a lot of young people went there for what they called “the flow”. I don’t remember any weddings taking place at that time. There may have been a few but I think I would have noticed if there were 50 within that year.

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

I heard in the WL LC that only happens to honorable men who are whistle-blowers and publicly speak the truth.

Dear RecoveringCK, I am new to the forum and I am still meeting with the saints in a local church. I’m not here to be contentious, but to learn. I don’t understand what is a “whistle-blower” and I would like to know why you were excummunicated. I heard some of the saints in the church complain about how some were excommunicated in Midwest churches. This really bothered me and when I asked them details about it the answer was very vague. If you don’t mind sharing with me I would like to learn from it. I know a dear brother who was in Ft. Lauderdale. I wanted to ask him what happened but it seemed painful for him to speak about it so I let it go.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

I went to Boston in 1977 when a lot of young people went there for what they called “the flow”. I don’t remember any weddings taking place at that time. There may have been a few but I think I would have noticed if there were 50 within that year.

I was told that ~1978, a year or so after the big move to Boston, there was a "brotherly love" movement among the young people in Boston, many of whom had relocated from other cities, that resulted in many, many marriages. It could have been 25 marriages, noting that it takes two for each.

I also migrated to Columbus in 1977 during the Max-pressured "Young Galilean" movement to the campuses, and indeed there were also many marriages there the following year.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

I heard some of the saints in the church complain about how some were excommunicated in Midwest churches. This really bothered me and when I asked them details about it the answer was very vague.

Not to interrupt your discussion with others, but I was actively serving in the Midwest LC's for 3 decades until the Blended brothers decide to quarantine certain notable leaders. What LSM did was reprehensible. They went into every city and divided the churches, wanting to know only if you were for Lee's Ministry or not. They then worked with certain discontents to file lawsuits to steal meeting halls, church assets, and their "name."

I decided it was time to leave. Each side claimed that I needed to "stand for the truth." There was no interest in love or oneness, rather fighting for the spoils of war. For me, it exposed the whole system for what it really was.

[recoveringCK]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

Dear RecoveringCK, I am new to the forum and I am still meeting with the saints in a local church. I’m not here to be contentious, but to learn. I don’t understand what is a “whistle-blower” and I would like to know why you were excummunicated. I heard some of the saints in the church complain about how some were excommunicated in Midwest churches. This really bothered me and when I asked them details about it the answer was very vague. If you don’t mind sharing with me I would like to learn from it. I know a dear brother who was in Ft. Lauderdale. I wanted to ask him what happened but it seemed painful for him to speak about it so I let it go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower

On the http://localchurchdiscussions.com menu bar search the term whistleblower. There is a thread titled whistleblower. You can also do an advanced search for whistleblower, quarantine and excommunicate.

[recoveringCK]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They then worked with certain discontents to file lawsuits to steal meeting halls, church assets, and their "name."

I decided it was time to leave. Each side claimed that I needed to "stand for the truth." There was no interest in love or oneness, rather fighting for the spoils of war. For me, it exposed the whole system for what it really was.

Seeing the real situation is far better than believing falsehoods put forth by deceivers whose deeds contradict their words.

[Truthseeker]

Full time training helps you to take off your old veils from your face but after that you will be replaced by a new veil which leads you to see very clearly the Glory of Witness Lee and Blended Brothers instead of God's glory.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Barnabas

I know a dear brother who was in Ft. Lauderdale. I wanted to ask him what happened but it seemed painful for him to speak about it so I let it go.

I know a lot about Ft. Lauderdale. I was excommunicated there. Hit me in Personal Messages.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Seeing the real situation is far better than believing falsehoods put forth by deceivers whose deeds contradict their words.

Correct. As soon as one falsehood is exposed, then one becomes suspicious about what else has been covered up, and what other falsehoods might have been perpetrated on us. That's what happened to me.

As rumors and tensions grew between Cleveland and Anaheim, I began to study Brethren history. It was not so rosy as we were told. As I began to investigate LSM's reasoning for the pending Midwest quarantines, I discovered the real history of past quarantines of the late 1980's. For years I had "believed falsehoods put forth by the deceivers" at LSM.

This forum introduced me to other "falsehoods put forth by the deceivers." As they say, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." It's no wonder LSM calls it "being poisoned" when their faithful members suddenly discover the real facts of history long covered up.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This forum introduced me to other "falsehoods put forth by the deceivers." As they say, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." It's no wonder LSM calls it "being poisoned" when their faithful members suddenly discover the real facts of history long covered up.

I was told that the internet would “poison” me as well. I didn’t find this site until after I left the LSM churches.

What exactly would we be “poisoned” by? Truth, falsehood, satan? I never had an explanation, just “poison”. In context it would have been untruths about Witness Lee’s ministry. If his ministry is supposedly THE ministry - what are they afraid of? Or worse, are they afraid that people will actually find Christ rather than how he’s portrayed by Witness Lee?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I was told that the internet would “poison” me as well. I didn’t find this site until after I left the LSM churches.

What exactly would we be “poisoned” by? Truth, falsehood, satan? I never had an explanation, just “poison”. In context it would have been untruths about Witness Lee’s ministry. If his ministry is supposedly THE ministry - what are they afraid of? Or worse, are they afraid that people will actually find Christ rather than how he’s portrayed by Witness Lee?

Kangas got mad it me, or maybe I should say short with me.

Back when Jim Moran had a website against Lee & Co, a new website appeared : jimmoranexposed.com (maybe .net). I looked it up at Network Solutions and found that David Kangas founded it.

I sent an email to Kangas asking if he knew about it and he had. I asked him why he would fight a rear guard instead of going forward with the Lord.

His response wasn't charitable. He accused me of questioning his spirituality. And for good reason. He wasn't acting spiritual.

I thought he/they should have ignored Jim Moran. If they've got the truth, then truth will speak for itself. And, what happened to "pray for those who persecute you?"

Oh darn, I forgot my scripture. Jesus said, "Sue those who persecute you."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I was told that the internet would “poison” me as well. I didn’t find this site until after I left the LSM churches.

What exactly would we be “poisoned” by? Truth, falsehood, satan? I never had an explanation, just “poison”. In context it would have been untruths about Witness Lee’s ministry. If his ministry is supposedly THE ministry - what are they afraid of? Or worse, are they afraid that people will actually find Christ rather than how he’s portrayed by Witness Lee?

When I was researching the Plymouth Brethren history of splits in order to understand what was about to happen to us in the Midwest, I came across the Brethren use of "bugbears." I had to laugh when I learned that the British "bugbear" was exactly the same as the American "bogeyman," a literary device used to frighten little children in order to manipulate their behavior. How fitting! It all made sense.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I was told that the internet would “poison” me as well. I didn’t find this site until after I left the LSM churches.

What exactly would we be “poisoned” by? Truth, falsehood, satan? I never had an explanation, just “poison”. In context it would have been untruths about Witness Lee’s ministry. If his ministry is supposedly THE ministry - what are they afraid of? Or worse, are they afraid that people will actually find Christ rather than how he’s portrayed by Witness Lee?

Facts aren't poison and they are all well known.

Contrasting points of view and healthy debate on teachings, doctrine, practices, etc. are not necessarily given to poison.... though they can and often devolve into that.

Poison is in the vitriol, ridicule, mocking, slander, false accusations, etc.. that is so often present in internet chat rooms where one would not face the immediate consequences were they to say the same thing in the same way to someone's face.


Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Facts aren't poison and they are all well known.

Contrasting points of view and healthy debate on teachings, doctrine, practices, etc. are not necessarily given to poison.... though they can and often devolve into that.

Poison is in the vitriol, ridicule, mocking, slander, false accusations, etc.. that is so often present in internet chat rooms where one would not face the immediate consequences were they to say the same thing in the same way to someone's face.


Drake

Luk 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

Mar 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Poison? Ha!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

Facts aren't poison and they are all well known.

Right, many are well known...and no thanks to Witness Lee or his followers. The "Defense and Confirmation Project" was basically set up to obscure the facts, and propose to the Internet public that the Local Church is totally orthodox, accepting of other Christians and that there is no spiritual abuse of any kind in the movement. But thanks is certainly in order for all the former Local Church members who have had the courage and fortitude to speak the truth in love. (no thanks to me accept maybe for being faithful to rent this meeting hall, vacuum the carpet and clean the bathrooms on Saturday morning)

Contrasting points of view and healthy debate on teachings, doctrine, practices, etc. are not necessarily given to poison.... though they can and often devolve into that.

Why do you and other LC members always claim that the conversation "devolves into that" when the contrasting points of view and debate are about the teachings, doctrines and practices established by Witness Lee, and the history of the LC movement? Of course the question is rhetorical, but our friend Drake is more than welcome to take a shot at it.

Poison is in the vitriol, ridicule, mocking, slander, false accusations, etc.. that is so often present in internet chat rooms where one would not face the immediate consequences were they to say the same thing in the same way to someone's face.

Same goes for the vitriol, ridicule, mocking, slander and false accusations that proceeded from the mouth of Witness Lee on almost a daily basis for over 50 years. Same goes for the Blended Brothers. Same goes for every member on this forum. We ALL reap what we sow.

The real line of separation is the truth. The truth about what is really taught and practiced in the Local Church. The truth about the life and times of Witness Lee away from the podium, and what he really spoke before the crafty hands of Ron Kangas could edit out the stuff that they didn't want to get into black and white.

Welcome to 2018 Local Churchers. Welcome to the Internet Blended Brothers. Sorry, but you can no longer have a totally monopoly on the hearts and minds of the precious members. Anyone who has a cell phone and a data connection can now find out the truth. Yes, the truth does sometimes hurt. But everyone concerned should keep well in mind that Witness Lee was not the only person who has the right and privilege of having a "messy kitchen".
-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The real line of separation is the truth. The truth about what is really taught and practiced in the Local Church. The truth about the life and times of Witness Lee away from the podium, and what he really spoke before the crafty hands of Ron Kangas could edit out the stuff that they didn't want to get into black and white.
-

This allegation is fake news. It is frequently promoted in this forum as a tactic of convenience: once established in a person's mind they can then make up any ol' doctrine or variation and attribute it to Brother Lee. No one in this forum has been able to provide any substantive difference between the spoken word and the printed word as regards the truth concerning God, Christ, salvation, the Church, etc. Only anecdotal evidence has been mentioned (and that + $5.25 will get you a Starbucks Frappacino).

There are differences but they are of form, or expression of words, or removing specific names of those who participated in the meeting, etc. Nothing substantive regarding the truth is ever altered. This is true with most spoken and printed messages by most ministers. Brothers Nee and Lee were no different for all their teachings fall well within the pale of orthodoxy.

You may not like the brand, but all involved are committed to it. Which is why this forum even exists.

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brothers Nee and Lee were no different for all their teachings fall well within the pale of orthodoxy.

You may not like the brand, but all involved are committed to it. Which is why this forum even exists.

Drake

I have not seen any other orthodox teachers claiming it is Satan himself dwelling as sin in our flesh. This is one example of completely unorthodox teaching. Another major error I see from the Lee ministry is that we will become god in life and nature, but not in the godhead. This can never be considered to line up with orthodox christian teaching, and it certainly doesn't line up with Gods' word.

My other question for the LC is....why are all involved 'committed to the brand' (WLee, I am assuming). Why is there any loyalty cultivated, expected, encouraged, even to this fallen man and his meanish ministry? Why, when it takes simple hearts toward him instead of their true love, Jesus Christ.

I really appreciated the verse of the day on the front page, UntoHim. I read on to

2 Cor 11 v 18.....for not he that commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.

I'm afraid we took WLs commendation of himself and his ministry all this time, believing his commendation equaled our saviors. This is one idea that I wash my hands and heart of.

byHismercy

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I have not seen any other orthodox teachers claiming it is Satan himself dwelling as sin in our flesh. This is one example of completely unorthodox teaching.

byHismercy,

I believe BlueOrchid intends to open a note on this topic. If so, we can pick it up there.

However, Brother Lee did not distance himself from this teaching, rather he was completely consistent when he spoke it and when it went to print. No variation contrary to UntoHim's claims for this or any other topic related to the christian life and faith. I look forward to discussing its scriptural orthodoxy when BlueOrchid opens that note.


thanks
Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

However, Brother Lee did not distance himself from this teaching...

The Minister of the age, take heed!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The Minister of the age, take heed!

Wow.

Deep.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Wow.

Deep.

I try to keep it simple for you Drake.

In all seriousness... the orthodoxy of Witness Lee’s teachings, his position as the Minister of the Age, and his ministry as the “ministry of this age” should be closely scrutinized and evaluated through the lens of reality, scripture, and the Holy Spirit. The more I think about it, the teachings of Witness Lee - in their entirety - are incompatible to the truth of Christ, His gospel, and scripture. If my premise is true (I’m just some guy on an Internet forum, not the MOTA) the implications of this for those who defend Lee at all costs is a terrifying thought.

Christ is real, as is His work on the cross to save us from sin that separates of from God. His love, reconciliation, and truth are real things. Why trade it all for a lie of Witness Lee? The premise of the recovery is questionable, the way it has been carried out practically, well... that’s complete absurdity in light of reality.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

byHismercy,

I believe BlueOrchid intends to open a note on this topic. If so, we can pick it up there.

However, Brother Lee did not distance himself from this teaching, rather he was completely consistent when he spoke it and when it went to print. No variation contrary to UntoHim's claims for this or any other topic related to the christian life and faith. I look forward to discussing its scriptural orthodoxy when BlueOrchid opens that note.


thanks
Drake

Thanks Drake. We already discussed 'Satan Indwelling' in my introductory post, and if I remember rightly, you never could find scripture supporting Lees' theory. I would only be able to go with what God speaks on that and every point. If you can find scripture support for Satan abiding in our flesh, I will look at it afresh. Otherwise, why bother?

Lee lies lamely,
We sigh plainly,
Keep try vainly,
Use thy brainly,
Get off his trainly.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

This allegation is fake news. It is frequently promoted in this forum as a tactic of convenience: once established in a person's mind they can then make up any ol' doctrine or variation and attribute it to Brother Lee. No one in this forum has been able to provide any substantive difference between the spoken word and the printed word as regards the truth concerning God, Christ, salvation, the Church, etc. Only anecdotal evidence has been mentioned (and that + $5.25 will get you a Starbucks Frappacino).

There are differences but they are of form, or expression of words, or removing specific names of those who participated in the meeting, etc. Nothing substantive regarding the truth is ever altered. This is true with most spoken and printed messages by most ministers. Brothers Nee and Lee were no different for all their teachings fall well within the pale of orthodoxy.

Drake perhaps your caffeine levels are down and need a Starbucks booster shot.

This forum is filled with honest-to-goodness real life testimonies from hundreds of former members who have exposed the errant teachings and actions of Witness Lee. Have you not read?

All you have been able to do on this forum is to categorically dismiss these testimonies, distort the message, and hide behind Latin logical fallacies. It would markedly serve your cause if one day you decided to exhibit a little integrity and own up to some of the more egregious errors emanating from Anaheim over the past half century.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake perhaps your caffeine levels are down and need a Starbucks booster shot.

This forum is filled with honest-to-goodness real life testimonies from hundreds of former members who have exposed the errant teachings and actions of Witness Lee. Have you not read?

All you have been able to do on this forum is to categorically dismiss these testimonies, distort the message, and hide behind Latin logical fallacies. It would markedly serve your cause if one day you decided to exhibit a little integrity and own up to some of the more egregious errors emanating from Anaheim over the past half century.

I remember my dreamland days in the local church. They were the good days. I can't blame brother Drake for hanging on to them. Just hang in Christ, and ignore all the rest. Philip Lee who? Quarantines who? Law suits, where, when? Who cares. Is Lee the MOTA? Who cares? Is the local church governed by the Moses principle? Who cares? Is the local church a cult? Who cares?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I try to keep it simple for you Drake.

In all seriousness... the orthodoxy of Witness Lee’s teachings, his position as the Minister of the Age, and his ministry as the “ministry of this age” should be closely scrutinized and evaluated through the lens of reality, scripture, and the Holy Spirit. The more I think about it, the teachings of Witness Lee - in their entirety - are incompatible to the truth of Christ, His gospel, and scripture. If my premise is true (I’m just some guy on an Internet forum, not the MOTA) the implications of this for those who defend Lee at all costs is a terrifying thought.

Christ is real, as is His work on the cross to save us from sin that separates of from God. His love, reconciliation, and truth are real things. Why trade it all for a lie of Witness Lee? The premise of the recovery is questionable, the way it has been carried out practically, well... that’s complete absurdity in light of reality.

Appreciate that LofT.

You are entitled to hold an uninformed opinion as much as an informed one.

Since Christ is real and you are skilled in the truth then you should be able to make a meaningful contribution on a variety of relevant topics. Often you only offer snide quips ..... a type of internet drive by shooting.

Thx
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember my dreamland days in the local church. They were the good days. I can't blame brother Drake for hanging on to them. Just hang in Christ, and ignore all the rest. Philip Lee who? Quarantines who? Law suits, where, when? Who cares. Is Lee the MOTA? Who cares? Is the local church governed by the Moses principle? Who cares? Is the local church a cult? Who cares?

Awareness,

If my head were buried in the sand as you suggest one way or the other then it would be easier in this forum for you and me and everyone else. Yet, one must be careful not to ride their experience and opinions like a high horse. Imagine a forum dedicated to ridiculing Harold day in and day out about your worst moments in this journey of life. Perhaps you brought the criticism on yourself justifibly but at some point it’s just beating a dead horse and any semblance of correction and reproof was left behind years ago. It’s fair to critique your teaching in the light of scripture but seriously, I think even you know that heaping ridicule and derision on fellow Christians for their mistakes must be very displeasing to the Lord.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Thanks Drake. We already discussed 'Satan Indwelling' in my introductory post, and if I remember rightly, you never could find scripture supporting Lees' theory. I would only be able to go with what God speaks on that and every point. If you can find scripture support for Satan abiding in our flesh, I will look at it afresh. Otherwise, why bother? .

ByHismercy,

I don’t engage on a number of topics for many reasons. Don’t mistake that for agreement. Conversely, I have no expectation that you are interested in having a scriptural conversation until you demonstrate that you do. Like many, your contribution here may be to simply find fault with fellow believers and to express them in jingles. Yet, here you can do that too and sing them to the Lord if you think that brings His smile.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Appreciate that LofT.

You are entitled to hold an uninformed opinion as much as an informed one.

Since Christ is real and you are skilled in the truth then you should be able to make a meaningful contribution on a variety of relevant topics. Often you only offer snide quips ..... a type of internet drive by shooting.

"Snide quips" like the Minister of the Age (MOTA) ?

When the entire Midwest and Brazil get quarantined for not properly accepting the Blended demands that Lee is the MOTA, and the rest of the LC's have been deceived about, then LofT's quip can never be considered "snide."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

If my head were buried in the sand as you suggest one way or the other then it would be easier in this forum for you and me and everyone else. Yet, one must be careful not to ride their experience and opinions like a high horse. Imagine a forum dedicated to ridiculing Harold day in and day out about your worst moments in this journey of life.

awareness deserves daily ridicule for claiming to be the forum MOTA -- moderator of the age.

Originally Posted by Drake

Perhaps you brought the criticism on yourself justifibly but at some point it’s just beating a dead horse and any semblance of correction and reproof was left behind years ago. It’s fair to critique your teaching in the light of scripture but seriously, I think even you know that heaping ridicule and derision on fellow Christians for their mistakes must be very displeasing to the Lord.

Little disingenuous, matey? I seem to remember asking you a number of times how do you define "mistakes"? Obviously we have a gross semantical disconnect on this point. Normal people have a different definition for "mistakes" than you and LSM have.

When Witness Lee covered his sons' many crimes, and Witness Lee smeared the reputations of other men of God to protect them, are you now for the first time admitting that these were "mistakes?" And when this forum addresses these damages inflicted on fellow members of the body of Christ, you claim that they are "heaping ridicule and derision on fellow Christians."

How about all the ridicule and derision we were subjected to for years in the LC's? Have you heard about "moo cows?"

So many questions that you refuse to answer!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Appreciate that LofT.

You are entitled to hold an uninformed opinion as much as an informed one.

Since Christ is real and you are skilled in the truth then you should be able to make a meaningful contribution on a variety of relevant topics. Often you only offer snide quips ..... a type of internet drive by shooting.

Thx
Drake

I think you're trying to be cute Drake, but I'll respond anyway.

I'd love to spend more time on this forum, but I have too many non-internet things going on... frankly, the little time I do spend on here is a stretch for me. I have offered you to come to my home, see my family, ministry, and church. If you really want to hear more from me, just let me know when to buy the tickets.

I have received many messages thanking me for my posts, so I'll just confirm that my posts are not for your benefit Drake. Your blindspot is too large - you're too "informed" to listen to people like me who are so woefully "uninformed" according to you. But that's ok, I'll continue to pray for you - my internet companion.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Awareness,

If my head were buried in the sand as you suggest one way or the other then it would be easier in this forum for you and me and everyone else. Yet, one must be careful not to ride their experience and opinions like a high horse. Imagine a forum dedicated to ridiculing Harold day in and day out about your worst moments in this journey of life. Perhaps you brought the criticism on yourself justifibly but at some point it’s just beating a dead horse and any semblance of correction and reproof was left behind years ago. It’s fair to critique your teaching in the light of scripture but seriously, I think even you know that heaping ridicule and derision on fellow Christians for their mistakes must be very displeasing to the Lord.

Drake

Well maybe bro Drake, but maybe not. Our record shows that Jesus was pretty handy at ridicule and derision. And Christianity has carried that torch ever since. Hey!!! Bro Lee was pretty handy at it too.

But thanks for pointing out that you don't have your head in the sand. That's obvious. You're on this forum.

But you do seem to be in a dreamland local church ... that looks nothing like the LC that I gave my life too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

awareness deserves daily ridicule for claiming to be the forum MOTA -- moderator of the age.



Little disingenuous, matey? I seem to remember asking you a number of times how do you define "mistakes"? Obviously we have a gross semantical disconnect on this point. Normal people have a different definition for "mistakes" than you and LSM have.

When Witness Lee covered his sons' many crimes, and Witness Lee smeared the reputations of other men of God to protect them, are you now for the first time admitting that these were "mistakes?" And when this forum addresses these damages inflicted on fellow members of the body of Christ, you claim that they are "heaping ridicule and derision on fellow Christians."

How about all the ridicule and derision we were subjected to for years in the LC's? Have you heard about "moo cows?"

So many questions that you refuse to answer!

Thanks for your support bro Ohio. Drake is a hefty contender. We've got to tag-team him.

But why? He seems to be happy to just be a moo cow. I just wonder if Lee took HIS virginity???? What say ye, bro Drake, did you loose money on Daystar? Or did you, like me, not believe Lee's pitch for it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for your support bro Ohio. Drake is a hefty contender. We've got to tag-team him.

But why? He seems to be happy to just be a moo cow. I just wonder if Lee took HIS virginity???? What say ye, bro Drake, did you loose money on Daystar? Or did you, like me, not believe Lee's pitch for it?

Drake came to the LC about the same time (~mid-70's) I did, so both of us were post-Daystar. Even the Daystar cleanup efforts were mostly done by then, and many damaged saints had left. TC in Cleveland told all the brothers (perhaps he believed what he was told?) in the Midwest that "all Daystar investors were properly reimbursed." We know that was not true.

Drake has decided to no longer respond to my posts (a quarantined persona non grata) because I am an "embittered ex-member" who constantly brings up past behaviors by Lee, his sons, and LSM. I have become convinced of two things -- first, that stumbled former members must learn to forgive, and second, that existing members must take responsibility for past actions, and repent.

So far, Drake is only willing to admit that "mistakes were made." This is merely a 2 cent apology for a $100 dollar crime. He is not even willing to say what these "mistakes" were, or even what qualifies as a "mistake." And then he wonders why this forum even exists. So I continue to engage him, and challenge him at times, so that the deceptions employed by LSM are not used here also.

The demands that we "forgive and forget" our past pains and hurts in the LC are not warranted by scripture. We must forgive, yet the Bible never commands us to forget. We must forgive others as Christ has forgiven us, yet those experiences should also be used to safeguard others from the same dangers we faced.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I think you're trying to be cute Drake, but I'll respond anyway.

I'd love to spend more time on this forum, but I have too many non-internet things going on... frankly, the little time I do spend on here is a stretch for me. I have offered you to come to my home, see my family, ministry, and church. If you really want to hear more from me, just let me know when to buy the tickets.

I have received many messages thanking me for my posts, so I'll just confirm that my posts are not for your benefit Drake. Your blindspot is too large - you're too "informed" to listen to people like me who are so woefully "uninformed" according to you. But that's ok, I'll continue to pray for you - my internet companion.

LofT,

You have extended that invitation in private and now again in public. I'll say again that I have no doubt that you, your family, your home, your ministry, and church are models in the christian community. I mean that and I think you mean well and have some appreciation for your charity.

I have met many fellow believers from christian forums, visited their homes, and they mine, attended their place of fellowship and they mine. Even met with some openly opposing us in hopes that fellowship in Christ may be established. Had much sweet fellowship and consider many of them lifelong friends in whatever state they choose.....and probably could with you too.... but, it won't happen, at least not yet..... for one very simple reason: your motives are not pure. Of course, I can only base that on what you post or send in private mail.....and I read most everything you write.

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHismercy,

I don’t engage on a number of topics for many reasons. Don’t mistake that for agreement. Conversely, I have no expectation that you are interested in having a scriptural conversation until you demonstrate that you do. Like many, your contribution here may be to simply find fault with fellow believers and to express them in jingles. Yet, here you can do that too and sing them to the Lord if you think that brings His smile.

Drake

That was my attempt at poetry, thank you very much. A jingle is for sale and I doubt I could give that away. The topic you actually did engage in, with me, and others. Remember? A very lengthy debate over Lees' unorthodox teaching about how Satan himself is living in our flesh. (Find it in introductions, titled Now's Good) I know you would like to forget because it is not scriptural, and there is no possible way to defend such a teaching to people who believe into Gods' word as the truth, Gods' breath. Suddenly you don't want to talk about the orthodoxy of Lees' ministry anymore?

But in all honesty, I have to speak up when I see my brothers and sisters in Christ under deception. Jesus called the Bereans noble for listening to the gospel their hearts and minds ready, then their faithful search of scripture began....to see if the things taught them were indeed so. God commended them! They searched Gods' word for the truth. We have a model in them. If I went through and learned all I did of the Local Church and remained silent....it would be in vain! God allowed me to see the 'other spirit' operating in the Lee church for a reason! I would be as guilty as that wicked system if I did not warn other believers about what I know now.

If I listen to you and kept my mouth shut, I would have to deny Jesus shining His light on the truth about the LC. Would you really have me mute my testimony? I know the sisters here in this city would have me silent at all costs. The cost is oneness, fellowship, friendship, love, edification of believers, the truth, everything God in Christ Jesus values. So please, Drake, don't bother with me.....your criticism of me just gets me talking moreso. You are a perfect product of the Local Church of Witness Lee, your spirit towards me tastes exactly the same as the christians I used to think were such spiritual Jesus lovers. It is the unspoken, hidden worship of Lee that divides the Local Church saints from other believers. It is not so hidden anymore, not for some. Shame on you for trying to stifle the truth being spoken here. I would be completely ashamed of myself if I said nothing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

You have extended that invitation in private and now again in public. I'll say again that I have no doubt that you, your family, your home, your ministry, and church are models in the christian community. I mean that and I think you mean well and have some appreciation for your charity.

I have met many fellow believers from christian forums, visited their homes, and they mine, attended their place of fellowship and they mine. Even met with some openly opposing us in hopes that fellowship in Christ may be established. Had much sweet fellowship and consider many of them lifelong friends in whatever state they choose.....and probably could with you too....but, it won't happen, at least not yet..... for one very simple reason: your motives are not pure.

Of course, I can only base that on what you post or send in private mail.....and I read most everything you write.

Drake

His motives are not pure? That's one of the most unfair things I've heard in a long while. LofT extends the right hand of fellowship and hospitality, but Drake cannot accept. Why? Because LofT's "motives are not pure."

Who is Drake to know a man's heart, and judge his motives. How does one judge a man's motives as not pure?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

If I listen to you and kept my mouth shut, . ..... It is the unspoken, hidden worship of Lee that divides the Local Church saints from other believers......Shame on you for trying to stifle the truth being spoken here. I would be completely ashamed of myself if I said nothing.

byHismercy,

Quite an imagination you have there. I'll be as clear as possible about your expressed concerns.

It doesn't matter to me whether you listen to me,....or read my posts...
I don't want you to keep your mouth shut......
no one I know worships Brother Lee or Nee...
and I'm not trying to stifle anybody's truth.

Rather....

What seems to iritate you is my offering facts or a different experience , or a divergent opinion which you then appear to misinterpret as "stifling truth" and wanting to "keep your mouth shut". Maybe we should remind ourselves where we are having this conversation. ...... it's an Internet chat forum. ... so, we chat.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Even met with some openly opposing us . . .

Sorry. Have to ask. Who is this 'us' you speak of?

And brother Drake, I'm impressed. I didn't realize you were such a muckety-muck mover and shaker for the church. Goodness, even seeking to mend fences with opposers.

As I remember it, Lee was the quintessential opposer. Did you contend with him too, for the inclusion of the wider church of believers?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Other posts suggest the 10 day twice a year trainings were formed to raise money to pay for debts WL incurred with the Daystar venture.

Charging for the trainings was a stark line of demarcation for many. Up until that point, it is my understanding that all aspects of "the Ministry" were not monetized per se, but depended upon the freewill offerings of individual saints, and also corporate offerings made by various local churches. I believe "The Stream" magazine (monthly?) was sent free of charge to anyone who asked.

Of course since the Daystar debacle never really happened (and if it did everyone was paid back in full.) then to the rank-and-file members the whole thing is much ado about nothing. Of the rapidly diminishing older ones that even know anything about this ill-fated, illegal money making scam perpetrated by Lee & Sons Inc., most are probably convinced the whole thing was made up by those evil, ambitious destroyers of God's building (aka: any former LC member who dares speak of the facts regarding Daystar and the the numerous other criminal scams in which the members were defrauded of their hard-earned $)

The full time training began in 1977. One of the first training centers was on the east coast Boston area.

I don't believe the training you speak of here was a full, 2 year official training as it is known today. I believe the official Full-Time Trainings were actually initiated in Taiwan in or around 1986. I could be missing something here.

Before LCD, there was not a way for ex-members to communicate what was happening.

Actually, before this forum was started back in 2008, there was a sub-forum within a forum (The Public Square) operated by The Bereans Apologetics Research Ministry which is based in the Philippines. Unfortunately, this forum was overrun with many Internet trolls, imposters and other unsavory characters who had no intentions of entering into sane discussions regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee movement. Eventually, the whole Bereans forum imploded and self-destructed, never to come back online, at least not successfully. It was probably for the better since it gave me the gumption to start this forum. The rest, as the saying goes, is history.

What they are building is not the church as the bride of Christ but a cadre of devotees.

Excellent observation, I could not have said it better! Of course, in retrospect, the simple truth is this was Witness Lee's intention all along. Even going back to the early days in Taiwan, it became perfectly clear to anyone who was paying real attention that Lee had absolutely no intention of fulfilling his oft-made claim that "the ministry is for the churches". In practice, it was always about the churches building up, supporting, extolling and propagating Lee's personal ministry. Now this has been officially codified by the official leadership of the Local Church, The Blended Brothers, in the official proclamation of Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery © 2005 Living Stream Ministry
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[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Charging for the trainings was a stark line of demarcation for many.

Jesus' ministry didn't charge, and look what he was bringing. Jesus lived by faith ; faith in the Father.

LSM is not living by faith. They are a non-profit glued to the bottom-line now. They aren't the only Christians that's doing it. In fact, it seems to be widespread. It's the way of corporations.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

His motives are not pure?

I've stated my motives for being on this forum multiple times. I'm here to help those who are or were trapped in the deception that is the LSM churches so that they may be free from this man-made garbage to know and experience the glory and truth of our Lord Jesus Christ. My posts are very much in line with this motive. I hate for anyone in this situation to waste one more minute of their life outside the reality of Christ, His Spirit, and Scripture. Witness Lee is not who he claims to be, nor his ministry what he claimed it to be. If my premise is true (again, remember I'm not the MOTA but it doesn't take a theological giant to see the absurdity in Lee's claims) then who REALLY has the impure motives?

Drake can pretend to claim injustice and impure motives, but the words are there for all to read.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Full time training helps you to take off your old veils from your face but after that you will be replaced by a new veil which leads you to see very clearly the Glory of Witness Lee and Blended Brothers instead of God's glory.

Had to bring this one forward. No truer words ever written on this forum.
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