Do you think Christianity is degraded?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I posted this on my Facebook wall a year ago. It's maddening to me that my newfeed is feed up with attacks on Christianity.

Kevin, I can’t read the “thumbnail” of what you posted on Facebook a year ago... too pixelated, and thus can’t respond.

Could you type it out for us?

JJ

[awareness]

Originally Posted by JJ

Kevin, I can’t read the “thumbnail” of what you posted on Facebook a year ago... too pixelated, and thus can’t respond.

Could you type it out for us?

JJ

"If you were taught that there is no life outside of your movement, everything is just degraded, deformed, and Christless Christianity and Christians who are in it can never be part of the Bride unless they overcome their denominational grounds is a LIE from hell and that it needs to be addressed and exposed. Not gonna buy hyper-localism.
#AgainstExclusivism
#AlwaysRecovering/Reforming"

[Sons to Glory!]

(I just saw this thread pop up, even though it had been an old one.) To answer the original question - of course Christianity is degraded! All of mankind (1st Adam), along with everything connected with him, is degraded!

It might help to define what is meant by the term "Christianity." Personally, I'm not crazy about the term, because to me it connotates a system of doing things. In other words, a religion. Christ and the ekklesia is a relationship of life. So to me, the term Christianity is already something not exactly connected with the divine life of Christ, but rather religion.

But, as some bros I meet with are fond of saying, "So what!? We're all screwed up!" So none of us should then think we are somehow better off because we think we have something superior. This produces fleshly pride and elitism, which we're all prone to in Adam. And hey, even if we do have better teaching or whatever, if this translates to thinking we're better, we are deceived, and really (probably) in worse shape than those we think are degraded. And likely doubly so if we allow that thinking to separate us in any way from another blood-bought one.

But the good news is that while we're all part of this degradation, we have confidence in Him that a spotless bride will emerge! In Christ alone our hope is found.

[Kevin]

I don't know where to put this post from a Facebook friend in any threads here. But this post gives me the cringe.

There is always going to be opposition to the truth found in the Living Stream Ministry, because it does not follow traditional religious orthodox principles. God does not need tradition or religion. God only needs man and man absolutely needs God. Man thinks he needs religion, by the reasoning of his mind and not by spiritual revelations from God. You know the real truth because it registers in the deepest part of your being. When you were first saved by the Lord, you may even have had visions and experiences of the unavoidable truth, just reading the ministry of the Word of Life. It is the reason that on my Facebook Cover Page you see Ezekiel 1:1 there. "The heavens were opened and I saw visions of God." It was twenty-three years later, the Lord Jesus took me up to the same place He had come from, to bring God the Father into me as the Spirit in 1977.
In the year 2000, He showed me the Triune God flowing through His Body, His Bride, His Eternal Dwelling Place. This is a heavenly vision of the living, organic, glorious church that I needed to experience, when I was 35, since I could not stay in the church life due to the high degree of reality that I had never experienced in organized religion in the Roman Catholic Church. I had too much traditional "religion" in me. I was never told that not only does Christ's blood wash away my sin, but much more my death is replaced by His life flowing in me.
Revelation 22:1
When we are saved, we do not do anything, but He does everything.
Religion comes from the idea that we are suppose to do something in addition to what God is doing. We just need to continue to believe and to love Him to the uttermost.
Brother Witness Lee once said that if Satan was not constantly opposing the church, there would be something wrong, since Satan hates the truth, the ministry, which has to do with life and building.
John 10:10 says, "The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly. "
1 Corinthians 14:26 says, "... let all things be done for building up."
1 Corinthians 1:2 says, "to the church of God which is in Corinth..."
This letter by Paul is addressed to only one church, not to multiple churches in that city. The same is true of the letters he wrote to the church in Ephesus, to the church in Colossi, the church in Rome, etc..
1 Corinthians 1:10 says, "You all speak the same thing, and that there shall be no divisions among you, but that you be attuned in the same mind and in the same opinion."
Philippians 2:2 says, "Make my joy full that you think the same, having the same love, thinking the one thing."
This is impossible when the saints of God are divided.
There is one more thing that absolutely distinguishes the LORD's Recovery from all the denominational ministries of today and that is the suffering and sacrifice brother Watchman Nee and brother Witness Lee endured at the hands of the Communist Chinese and Japanese Imperial Forces inflicted upon them, even to the point of death. Brother Nee died after 20 years in prison and brother Witness Lee only survived since the Japanese Forces realized that they were to lose WWII. It took the dear saints 18 months to "nurse him back to health."
Both of these dear brothers the Lord used to far exceed the spiritual writings of "spiritual writers" in the Twentieth Century, as evidenced by the way brother Nee's "inner life" books were all bought up at once when they came out in the 1960s. This brought many Caucasian saints into the local churches in California at that time, because the people experienced so much reality. "The reality is in Jesus." Ephesians 4:21
Brother Witness Lee became the most prolific writer of "inner life" spiritual books in history. He studied the bible for 69 years. He said that outside of what the Gospel book room published in Shanghai of brother Nee's writings in the 1930s and 1940s and what came out of the LSM in more recent times, were not worth reading, because they
lacked the experience of the Spirit of Life (reality) who dispenses God's life into man.
This account speaks nothing of the love and life these brothers brought into so many lives, all over the earth, long after both brothers had "fallen asleep" in the unselfish service of the Lord.
I never forgot a revelation brother Witness Lee gave me that has stayed with me for 41 years. "In HisBody, there is only room for Christ."
1978

[Cal]

The problem I have with writings like these is the us-vs-them mentality and the air of superiority they display, as if nothing compares to their little corner of the Church. It's an idealized view. It says nothing of the failures of the movement and the people who have undeniably been hurt by it. It's all sunshine and angel choirs.

They have this extreme attitude because they think part of being faithful is to live in denial. We are not talking about just emphasizing the positive. We are talking about believing that even recognizing the negative is somehow destructive. A mind like that is not reasonable. And such an attitude is self-reinforcing. There is no fail-safe. The bombers are on their way to Moscow, and nothing can call them back.

I watched "Leaving Neverland," the documentary about two grown men who have come out to say that Michael Jackson serially molested them when they were young boys. One thing that kept them from telling anyone for so long was that Jackson convinced them that he was their best friend, and that if anyone found out about it they would suffer and go to jail forever. The boys truly "loved" Jackson and even wanted to protect him. They did not know they were being abused.

Sorry to say, the LR uses the same approach. It convinces people that it is their best friend, and if they betray their best friend they will suffer. It's a powerful inducement. I know. I lived it for years.

I understand, a little I think, the conflict those two young men experienced.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The problem I have with writings like these is the us-vs-them mentality and the air of superiority they display, as if nothing compares to their little corner of the Church. It's an idealized view. It says nothing of the failures of the movement and the people who have undeniably been hurt by it. It's all sunshine and angel choirs.

They have this extreme attitude because they think part of being faithful is to live in denial. We are not talking about just emphasizing the positive. We are talking about believing that even recognizing the negative is somehow destructive. A mind like that is not reasonable. And such an attitude is self-reinforcing. There is no fail-safe. The bombers are on their way to Moscow, and nothing can call them back.

We often heard about "the vision" from WL. For decades I heard (and repeated) when someone left, that they lost "their vision." Then what exactly in the LC was "the vision" we were loyal to? In a word, the "vision" was never leaving. No matter how bad things got, we would stay until death. That was our "vision" in a nutshell. If it meant living with your head in the sand, then so be it!

For that "vision" to be secure, we must never acknowledge failure or accept criticism, in fact, criticism must always remain a flow proceeding out of the Recovery. Criticism must never come into our midst, no, never! That's why the internet is so dangerous for LCers. In the safety of one's own home, members can get honest feedback about what they have given their lives to.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Both of these dear brothers the Lord used to far exceed the spiritual writings of "spiritual writers" in the Twentieth Century, as evidenced by the way brother Nee's "inner life" books were all bought up at once when they came out in the 1960s. This brought many Caucasian saints into the local churches in California at that time, because the people experienced so much reality. "The reality is in Jesus." Ephesians 4:21

Brother Witness Lee became the most prolific writer of "inner life" spiritual books in history. He studied the bible for 69 years. He said that outside of what the Gospel book room published in Shanghai of brother Nee's writings in the 1930s and 1940s and what came out of the LSM in more recent times, were not worth reading, because they lacked the experience of the Spirit of Life (reality) who dispenses God's life into man.

This account speaks nothing of the love and life these brothers brought into so many lives, all over the earth, long after both brothers had "fallen asleep" in the unselfish service of the Lord.

I never forgot a revelation brother Witness Lee gave me that has stayed with me for 41 years. "In His Body, there is only room for Christ."
1978

This is where this post you quoted goes off the rails. Since opening my heart to the rest of the body of Christ 22 years ago, I can testify that it is an absolute falsehood to say WL was the most prolific spiritual writer of the 20th century. There are others and just too name one - T. Austin Sparks. Sparks had a very high and clear vision of Christ and the church, and there are many thousands of pages of his speaking and writings in print. (and yes, WL produced copious amounts of "Life Studies")

I can strongly testify that the Lord personally led me, very specifically, to other writings that are full of the focus on Christ that were nourishment to me, and good for building up in love.

And this is not to disparage brother Lee's contribution. Just this morning, after a breakfast fellowship, a brother and I were talking about this. I told him how I appreciated that he did not shy away from mentioning brother Lee if there was something nourishing that came from him. As I like to say, "We all have warts." I doubt we can point to any saint (including WN and WL) and say that they were spotless and without warts. Bro Lee saw things that helped many of us. But I can name many others in public ministry from whom I've received good nourishment from God!

And praise the Lord this brother saw through Lee's speaking that "In His body there is only room for Christ."

Us humans like to take things too far in one direction or another. We get something of value from a source and want to hold it up as the best and only thing out there. That's a clear error. But isn't there also a saying about dirty bath water and babies?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Us humans like to take things too far in one direction or another. We get something of value from a source and want to hold it up as the best and only thing out there. That's a clear error. But isn't there also a saying about dirty bath water and babies?

It is good that you have achieved some balance in your view and I commend you for that!

As to bathwater and babies, the official LR is in no danger of throwing out the baby because it is still protecting the bathwater. If the leaders thought like you it might be different, but they still manifest the siege mentality that the movement can do no wrong. Why do they do that? To maintain the myth that they are the only valid place for God's people, and thus hold people there. But it is based on lies and so is an abuse of those people.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It is good that you have achieved some balance in your view and I commend you for that!

As to bathwater and babies, the official LR is in no danger of throwing out the baby because it is still protecting the bathwater. If the leaders thought like you it might be different, but they still manifest the siege mentality that the movement can do no wrong. Why do they do that? To maintain the myth that they are the only valid place for God's people, and thus hold people there. But it is based on lies and so is an abuse of those people.

Yes, and that is elitism. Who was the most elite? Christ. Did He act out that part in any way whatsoever? No. (see Philippians 2:6)