Practically engaged to an LCer

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Clearly don't do it. I know how spellbinding those Chinese girls can be. I married one.

Thanks dude. I'd never join the LC or anything I deem "weird". It's really easy to speak of breaking off the relationship, but in reality it is really hard to do. I believe there is hope that anyone, even her, to leave the LC. I live nearly an hour from the nearest LC, and if we married she would move in with me. She mentioned driving each week, but I don't think it would last long or maybe she would only go sometimes. We'll have a few days to discuss some things over the holidays, so we'll see how it goes.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

Thanks dude. I'd never join the LC or anything I deem "weird". It's really easy to speak of breaking off the relationship, but in reality it is really hard to do. I believe there is hope that anyone, even her, to leave the LC. I live nearly an hour from the nearest LC, and if we married she would move in with me. She mentioned driving each week, but I don't think it would last long or maybe she would only go sometimes. We'll have a few days to discuss some things over the holidays, so we'll see how it goes.

Good luck with that. I take it you're in love. I hope it works out. But will she be happy? If she ain't happy ain't nobody gonna be happy.

But it might happen if she stops going, after awhile, looking at it from the outside, she'll find happiness that she got free. Let's hope.

[HERn]

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart. One other source of information would be to ask if any of her LC friends or elders have offered her comments on her romance with you. Sorry for the bad news on Christmas Eve!

[jmar]

Originally Posted by HERn

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart. One other source of information would be to ask if any of her LC friends or elders have offered her comments on her romance with you. Sorry for the bad news on Christmas Eve!

She visited her old friend (an older motherly type) in Nevada earlier this month, and she seems to have gotten "recharged" from it. I told her to ask her friend about us getting married, and her friend can tell she's happy and thinks it's a good idea, surprisingly. She said her friend put her opinions aside and told my GF to keep "enjoying the Lord". Every time I hear something vague like this it drives me nuts...lol. My GF told me it makes her uncomfortable that I have so many opinions about "the church life". She's very much a feeler and I'm a thinker. She tells me I should put my thoughts and opinions aside and "enjoy the Lord" or "use my spirit". It's really easy for a feeling type to be ok with this. I tell her the Lord gave me a mind and made me a thinker, so I'm going to use it...lol.

She has one other friend in "the church life" whom she has shared all of this with, and both of her friends are praying for us. I'm not sure exactly what kind of prayers those are, but I have my friends praying for us too.

I've got my daughter this Christmas, and it means the world, despite the weird GF situation. A lot of people thought we wouldn't work out due to cultural differences, but it may come down to faith group differences. Never thought I'd be in this situation.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart.

The problem is, people don't want to spoil the romance with hard-headed questions. Then they spend the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't have them, first. I'd write down my questions, hand them to her, and say that you have some questions about this group; she can take her time and consider them.

Start out by affirming the common faith. Then politely and respectfully point out your concerns.

Example: I notice that this group follows one Bible teacher, Witness Lee. But his predecessor Watchman Nee had a library of 3,000 books! Clearly he was able to draw from multiple sources - why have things changed so drastically?

Or, I notice that Watchman Nee learned from female authors and teachers, such as Jessie Penn-Lewis and Madame Guyon, and was trained by a woman named Margaret Barber, and had female 'senior co-workers' like Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Why is it that women in the LC today have no such venues for spiritual labor and expression?

Tell her, "Please carefully think about these things, and try to answer them, because I'm having these kinds of questions and if you love me it should matter to you."

Be thorough and be careful. She'll be impressed that you care enough to be clear, and will try to engage (hopefully). Tell her, this is a conversation between you and I. Try to think about these questions. I'll be glad to talk them over with you.

She will try to flee to the "elders" with their pat answers. Tell her, yes we can go to the senior ones, but right now you and I are having a conversation. Let's figure out what we can here and now, then go to others for help if we get stuck.

She says she loves you. I think you will find out real quick if she loves you or is just playing you.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by aron

The problem is, people don't want to spoil the romance with hard-headed questions. Then they spend the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't have them, first. I'd write down my questions, hand them to her, and say that you have some questions about this group; she can take her time and consider them.

Start out by affirming the common faith. Then politely and respectfully point out your concerns.

Example: I notice that this group follows one Bible teacher, Witness Lee. But his predecessor Watchman Nee had a library of 3,000 books! Clearly he was able to draw from multiple sources - why have things changed so drastically?

Or, I notice that Watchman Nee learned from female authors and teachers, such as Jessie Penn-Lewis and Madame Guyon, and was trained by a woman named Margaret Barber, and had female 'senior co-workers' like Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Why is it that women in the LC today have no such venues for spiritual labor and expression?

Tell her, "Please carefully think about these things, and try to answer them, because I'm having these kinds of questions and if you love me it should matter to you."

Be thorough and be careful. She'll be impressed that you care enough to be clear, and will try to engage (hopefully). Tell her, this is a conversation between you and I. Try to think about these questions. I'll be glad to talk them over with you.

She will try to flee to the "elders" with their pat answers. Tell her, yes we can go to the senior ones, but right now you and I are having a conversation. Let's figure out what we can here and now, then go to others for help if we get stuck.

She says she loves you. I think you will find out real quick if she loves you or is just playing you.

I've mentioned verbally a lot of my concerns like this, especially regarding the one source of information (from Lee and Nee, recovery version, etc). I also told her I see her church at a "Living Stream Church" and consider it as a denomination, despite them denying the existence of a denomination. Should I write down any previously mentioned concerns or only new ones? I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. I would have liked discussing it within the past few days but decided to put it off so I could enjoy the holidays.

[aron]

Originally Posted by jmar

Should I write down any previously mentioned concerns or only new ones? I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. .

If she has responded, then you don't have to repeat it. If she doesn't respond then repeat it.

Be polite, be caring and engaging and always be respectful! (One of my worst points, I know - but I do apologize for it). But be insistent; you have concerns and want to address them.

If she gets flustered tell her, Take your time and think it over. If she just refuses to engage on any level, then you have a good indication of where she is with the group, and with you.

The main point is, this is a group uncomfortable with questions; people with questions are labeled 'negative'. But your GF may be the exception. There is only one way to find out.

[jmar]

She has already told me that she didn't like me having a lot of "opinions" about her church group, but she did listen to my concerns. I didn't get much feedback, but I guess at least she listened.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jmar

I've mentioned verbally a lot of my concerns like this, especially regarding the one source of information (from Lee and Nee, recovery version, etc). I also told her I see her church at a "Living Stream Church" and consider it as a denomination, despite them denying the existence of a denomination. Should I write down any previously mentioned concerns or only new ones? I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. I would have liked discussing it within the past few days but decided to put it off so I could enjoy the holidays.

I really don't want to say much of anything since marriage is such a high stake and there are so many nuances that it's hard to be a "keyboard advisor" without knowing the situation personally, but the phrase I bolded above jumped out at me. I'm no trained professional in this area, but.....that doesn't seem like a solid foundation for any relationship, much less one that will likely be guaranteed to encounter disagreement over spiritual things.

If you are pretty content in case you don't work out....why marry that person? If facing a lifetime with them and you already feel you "don't have much to lose" if things go south....what substantive foundation are you committing to then?

Marriage will be difficult enough even without the LC issues you've mentioned. If you are already content not working out before you've gotten married, do you have enough to draw on when the inevitable difficulties come where you have to fight to in order to work out?

[jmar]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I really don't want to say much of anything since marriage is such a high stake and there are so many nuances that it's hard to be a "keyboard advisor" without knowing the situation personally, but the phrase I bolded above jumped out at me. I'm no trained professional in this area, but.....that doesn't seem like a solid foundation for any relationship, much less one that will likely be guaranteed to encounter disagreement over spiritual things.

If you are pretty content in case you don't work out....why marry that person? If facing a lifetime with them and you already feel you "don't have much to lose" if things go south....what substantive foundation are you committing to then?

Marriage will be difficult enough even without the LC issues you've mentioned. If you are already content not working out before you've gotten married, do you have enough to draw on when the inevitable difficulties come where you have to fight to in order to work out?

What I meant was that I consider myself "complete" in Christ. I'm not looking or depending on someone else to complete me. In addition, I already have a family (my child) and a house, which are things that newly married people are looking forward to creating together. I already have those things. If we end up not working out, I'd definitely lose out on a great open-minded person (minus LC issues) to spend my life with. Guess I was thinking what @awareness was saying...there are plenty of fish in the sea. Sometimes I'm not confident there are many good fish, but there are probably more than I realize. As far as marriage goes, I'm looking forward to working together as a team to build a better life together. We make a great team so far.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by jmar

... I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. I would have liked discussing it within the past few days but decided to put it off so I could enjoy the holidays.

Jmar--

Your definition of marriage is more secular than biblical. Society has an "escape clause" but biblically marriage is until "death do you part". "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder." This "no man" includes you.

Secular contracts are written and rewritten by men, even the US Supreme Court, who are influenced by the culture of the day. Contracts can easily be broken "when things don't work out", especially when you enter into the contract with nothing to lose.

It appears you have chosen a secular marriage where the only thing that binds you two together is paperwork. Her commitment to the Local Church is not your biggest issue.

Matthew 19:3-8 New International Version (NIV)
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.


Something else to think about...

.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jmar

I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out.

Originally Posted by Nell

Jmar--

Your definition of marriage is more secular than biblical. Society has an "escape clause" but biblically marriage is until "death do you part". "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder." This "no man" includes you.

I read that comment of jmar and I got the impression he was referring not to the institution of marriage, but an honest evaluation of his courtship. Thus his discussion on this forum.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good luck with that. I take it you're in love. I hope it works out. But will she be happy? If she ain't happy ain't nobody gonna be happy.

But it might happen if she stops going, after awhile, looking at it from the outside, she'll find happiness that she got free. Let's hope.

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

Let's hope if y'all do marry that she doesn't put the local church before you. That will eventually become a problem if that happens.

But it sounds like y'all are being sensible, and talking about it. Is she in love with you?

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Let's hope if y'all do marry that she doesn't put the local church before you. That will eventually become a problem if that happens.

But it sounds like y'all are being sensible, and talking about it. Is she in love with you?

Oh yes, we are really in love with each other. I live in the boonies, and she's willing to move here. She'll be about 50 minutes from the nearest Chinese grocery and 50 minutes from the nearest LC. It's a big sacrifice for her, but she knows I would not be happy living closer to the city.

[awareness]

If both of you are in love it will work. My marriage was arranged in the LC. There was no romantic love. It didn't work. We hardly knew each other.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

If both of you are in love it will work. My marriage was arranged in the LC. There was no romantic love. It didn't work. We hardly knew each other.

Wow, I didn't realize marriages were arranged in the LC. There was a time in the summer I visited and there was a young couple getting married. They didn't even seem to "go" together very well. They were having the ceremony at the "meeting hall", which is something my GF never mentioned (I suppose because it would not be allowed since I'm not in the club). The place seems entirely archaic to me. I don't see how or why anyone who grew up in the west would find it attractive; even after knowing her and the LC for about a year and a half it still boggles my mind.

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by jmar

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

You both may be perfectly fine with that arrangement, however, this is NOT how it should be in a Christian marriage. A married couple should not worship and fellowship separately. And when kids come along, that will only complicate matters further.

Take it from someone who is married to an active LC member. My husband and I have been married for over 22 years, and when he started attending this church approximately 8 years ago, my marriage became a nightmare! We have NEVER been on the brink of divorce but for the last 8 years, precisely when he started attending this brain-washing cult!! BEWARE! Although there is nothing impossible for our Lord Jesus, the haughtiness and pride of these members blinds them to ANYTHING OR ANYONE outside this heretical ministry. Tread very carefully and PRAY!!!

[awareness]

I hate to bring this up, but I've seen it before, even right here in Kentucky, not LC related, but given the gravity of this decision, bro jmar needs to consider all possibilities.

I know according to jmar this sister is a very sweet girl. But there's a possibility that she has ideas in her mind that she will eventually covert him.

The LC certainly believe that they are better than any church jmar can go to. If the sister is very suggestible, she may be being used for a LC type of Flirty Fishing.

My marriage was manipulated in such a way. The purpose wasn't conversion, we were both already in the LC, but to recruit young people to the c. in Detroit, where Kangas (now the replacement, or oracle, of Witness Lee 'as The Minister of the Age') was the lead.

Be careful bro jmar. Listen to boughtbyJesus, who is going thru it right now. Marriage is a long time commitment. It can be good, and go bad, and the commitment means you have to hang in there even if it becomes a living hell. I wouldn't wish a bad marriage on anyone.

[byHismercy]

I am not suggesting jmar do this, but I am pretty sure if he were to march up to his fiances' meeting hall and have a sit down with the elders of her locality, and if he were completely frank about any issues or errors in doctrine, or any problems he sees in the ministry, he might find the decision out of his hands. At the least, he would find out if she were devoted to him or her LC. I am positive they would do their very best to 'poison' her against jmar if they sensed danger of his 'negative' influence.

When I was a young person in the LC, various sisters were sent to me to influence me to break up with a boyfriend, and when that happened organically, later I got a talking to about the man I was about to marry. (Meaning they felt very strongly that I shouldnt yoke myself to him, and was counciled strongly against it.) I wonder, now, how I was so blind to such weird intrusions....how I trusted in this ministry for so long.

And yes, jmar, arranged marriages abound in the LC. I can recall three young sisters my age who were coming through the FTTA who went from single to giddily engaged to be married overnight.

Come to think of it, I always thought it was so strange that so many devout older sisters I knew were divorced. I am committed to my unbelieving spouse forever because I will obey Gods word on the matter. Now I wonder how many divorces I knew of in the LC had everything to do with the cultish practice of LC elders meddling in 'unequally yolked' partnerships.

I wouldn't want to be in your place, jmar. We wives are to revere our husbands and he is the head of the marriage, as Christ is head of the church! That is a solemn command! You would be in the right to fully expect her to follow you in all ways, and the church, fellowship, worship, etc. If you came to the point of wanting her to take her submissive position, but she refused.....what would then happen? You ought to know that human love and close human relationships are looked upon as fleshly, therefore of Satan!! in the Lee ministry. That is how myself and my dear children came to be coldly discarded by saints we thought loved us. It was very painful. I so fear this becoming a stumbling block for my little ones some day....

byHismercy

[jmar]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I have emailed her my concerns with the LC, so let's see what she says about it. I'm really thankful for your supportiveness.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

if he were to march up to his fiances' meeting hall and have a sit down with the elders of her locality, and if he were completely frank about any issues or errors in doctrine, or any problems he sees in the ministry, he might find the decision out of his hands.
byHismercy

It would be a very cold day in Anaheim before an LC elder would give his blessings on a marriage between a sister absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee to a non-LC opposing brother, no matter how much the brother loved the Lord.