Outer Darkness?

[aron]

Actually I too quickly dismissed the "ask the experts" question, seeing it as a dodge to get off the subject of the glaring lacks in the LSM hermeneutical programmme.

But while we're on the subject, there's a useful field of scholarship expanding knowledge of the conversation occurring around the time that Jesus and his disciples lived, taught, and wrote. It is called, roughly "Second Temple Studies". What did an apostle mean when he wrote something? What did shared meanings did a parable convey? What imagery was suggested by a turn of phrase?

We don't know much of what Jesus himself believed, other than that he was the Messiah, a rabbi (teacher), the King of Israel, Savior of the World, and Son of God. He repeatedly taught that he would suffer, be rejected, killed by men, and rise on the third day to glory. Beyond that, we should be cautious. . . the details of "outer darkness" or some other phrase are usually obscure.

These experts, though they understand Hebrew, and Greek, don't presume to know the meaning of every single phrase. They're usually humble in their assessments. "This could mean" such-and-such, not "this is the recovered truth". A little humility and reticence seem in order, and goes a long way. And they allow differences of interpretation to exist, and mutual uncertainty, instead of resorting to calling each other "dark" and "ambitious" and "divisive". It's rather refreshing, really. . . quite, um, Christian, even.

Devorah Dimant
John J. Collins
Annette Yoshiko Reed
James C. VanderKam
Peter W. Flint
Esther Chazon
Carol A. Newsom
Josef T Milik
John M. Allegro
Lawrence H. Schiffman
Gabriel Boccaccini
Yisrael Yadin
James H. Charlesworth
Emile Puech
Emanuel Tov

This is a good list to start. There are a lot more. Happy trails. See you at the finish line, whenever that may be.

(And don't go beyond what is written).

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Actually I too quickly dismissed the "ask the experts" question, seeing it as a dodge to get off the subject of the glaring lacks in the LSM hermeneutical programmme.

But while we're on the subject, there's a useful field of scholarship expanding knowledge of the conversation occurring around the time that Jesus and his disciples lived, taught, and wrote. It is called, roughly "Second Temple Studies". What did an apostle mean when he wrote something? What did shared meanings did a parable convey? . . .A little humility and reticence seem in order, and goes a long way. And they allow differences of interpretation to exist, and mutual uncertainty, instead of resorting to calling each other "dark" and "ambitious" and "divisive". It's rather refreshing, really. . . quite, um, Christian, even.

Devorah Dimant
John J. Collins
Annette Yoshiko Reed
James C. VanderKam
Peter W. Flint
Esther Chazon
Carol A. Newsom
Josef T Milik
John M. Allegro
Lawrence H. Schiffman
Gabriel Boccaccini
Yisrael Yadin
James H. Charlesworth
Emile Puech
Emanuel Tov

This is a good list to start. There are a lot more. Happy trails. See you at the finish line, whenever that may be.

(And don't go beyond what is written).

I forgot Loren Stuckenbruck. He's really good, I think. To be clear, I'm not his disciple and have not sent him any money. But I've listened to some of his ideas & they've helped to form mine. He teaches in a university, has books and magazine articles out, has speeches on YouTube. Nothing hidden in a corner. All available to anyone. Go down to your public library and help yourself. No need to play the "authority and submission" game with some wanna-be satrap like Nee or Lee.

Back to the teachings of Jesus: as you do to others , so will be done to you. Forgive and you'll be forgiven. Show mercy and you'll receive mercy. And the opposites are true as well, and are explicitly affirmed. If you don't show mercy, no mercy will be shown you. It's not confusing, and some special interpretation can't overturn it.

People like Darby, Nee & Lee, Calvin once had their place. They rejected traditions of men & looked at scripture & asked, "What does it mean?" But their question really was, "What does it mean to me?" Now we're beginning to ask, "What did this mean to Jesus, to John and Peter and Paul, to first-century readers?" We must be a little more cautious with our assertions. But I find them to be rewarding questions to ask.

As an example, if you consider what "outer darkness" meant without consulting supporting documents like the Book of Enoch, your answer will be short. Yes, it's not scripture, I know, but is cited by scripture (Jude) and is probably referenced by Jesus in passages like Lazarus and the rich man, and "an evil spirit goes out of a man and travels through waterless places seeking rest". The fact that copies were found at Qumran, and that the Ethiopian churches preserved copies is significant. It was part of the conversation, and informed the understandings of things like judgment, reward, and "many stripes". People like John Darby and Watchman Nee lacked such resources. We do not.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

People like Darby, Nee & Lee, Calvin once had their place. They rejected traditions of men & looked at scripture & asked, "What does it mean?" But their question really was, "What does it mean to me?" Now we're beginning to ask, "What did this mean to Jesus, to John and Peter and Paul, to first-century readers?" We must be a little more cautious with our assertions. But I find them to be rewarding questions to ask.

As an example, if you consider what "outer darkness" meant without consulting supporting documents like the Book of Enoch, your answer will be short. Yes, it's not scripture, I know, but is cited by scripture (Jude) and is probably referenced by Jesus in passages like Lazarus and the rich man, and "an evil spirit goes out of a man and travels through waterless places seeking rest". The fact that copies were found at Qumran, and that the Ethiopian churches preserved copies is significant. It was part of the conversation, and informed the understandings of things like judgment, reward, and "many stripes". People like John Darby and Watchman Nee lacked such resources. We do not.

Interesting . . . Please elaborate more - what do you see as the meaning of "outer darkness?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting . . . Please elaborate more - what do you see as the meaning of "outer darkness?"

To go back to my point - the question is not, "What do you see as the meaning" today any more than what Calvin saw in the 16th century or Darby in the 19th. The question is, "What did this term mean in 1st-century Judea?" There are two reinforcing lines of inquiry. In one, we look at the word or phrase or concept. The actual idea conveyed - remember that Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher, as well as a prophet. In parables he was a rabbi.

I've gone into this at length with 'ekklesia' - Jesus didn't invent a term wholecloth in Matt. 16. See, e.g., the LXX of Psalm 1 and Psalm 22 (cf Heb 2:12).

So don't expect anyone to spoonfeed you; if you want answers, you'll have to dig. But that's where contemporary scholarship comes in.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

To go back to my point - the question is not, "What do you see as the meaning" today any more than what Calvin saw in the 16th century or Darby in the 19th. The question is, "What did this term mean in 1st-century Judea?" There are two reinforcing lines of inquiry. In one, we look at the word or phrase or concept. The actual idea conveyed - remember that Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher, as well as a prophet. In parables he was a rabbi.

I've gone into this at length with 'ekklesia' - Jesus didn't invent a term wholecloth in Matt. 16. See, e.g., the LXX of Psalm 1 and Psalm 22 (cf Heb 2:12).

So don't expect anyone to spoonfeed you; if you want answers, you'll have to dig. But that's where contemporary scholarship comes in.

No, I was asking what you, personally, thought was the meaning of outer darkness.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

No, I was asking what you, personally, thought was the meaning of outer darkness.

To me, outer darkness is separation from God.

Scripture shows us 3 falls: the fall of Satan, the fall of man, and the fall of the angels. Note that Genesis 6 occurs after Genesis 3. And this isn't extraneous to the Christian's mind because both Jude and 2 Peter spent time on the cause and consequences of the third fall. If you want to peer into darkness, read those chapters. "When light becomes dark, how great is the dark!"

Loren Stuckenbrucks book on the fall of the angels is really enlightening.

It is all about one thing - obedience. The Son loved the Father and obeyed, and the Father delighted in the Son and and raised him to glory.

Jesus dealt with all 3 falls. Most people I talk to only are aware of the first two. But to ascertain unseen realms as Jesus and his disciples might have - then clarity and dimension begin to emerge. Suddenly everything has its imperative, holistic sense. As you do, so it will be done to you. It's so simple even a Galilean fisherman can grasp it. And yet a Pharisee is in awe of its brilliance.

Do not do unto others as they do to you; rather do unto others as you would have them do. Outwardly, not much will change, at least in the beginning. But inwardly it is the difference between heaven and hell. I believe it is our path across that great gap. "And where I am going, you know the way."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

To me, outer darkness is separation from God.

Could we say more specifically that outer darkness is separation from God during the wedding dinner of His Son?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Loren Stuckenbrucks book on the fall of the angels is really enlightening.

Thanks. But only Prosperity Preachers can afford his books.