Outer Darkness?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

This composite imagery was assembled by Lee.

You say it so much better than I do.

Originally Posted by aron

It's fear, folks.

Fear with "Overcomer." Overcoming meant that we had to be more given. more committed, and more driven for "the ministry."

Overcomers are special. They aren't like the rest of the ordinary saints. They're the ones that are truest to Lee, like the Blended Brothers, the living example of what it means to be an Overcomer.

Then ... if you aren't going to be a overcomer, you risk outer darkness ... and then fear stepped up.

I see cultic methodologies going on?

[ABrotherinFaith]

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomes. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomes. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

There's nothing in the teachings that says overcoming is by our own efforts. That more reflects their lack of faith in the Lord's work and His ability, than anything Lee or Nee or the local churches actually teach.

For example, here are a few quotes from Lee and Nee showing that we cannot overcome by our own efforts:

But just as one cannot be saved through good works, one cannot overcome through good works.
~ Collected works of Nee, Overcoming Life

Do not try to overcome sin, nor to conquer your weakness , Life-Study of Genesis, Witness Lee

We may think that since the Lord has told us to overcome, we must therefore try to overcome, ......It does not mean this at all. ~ Witness Lee.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomers. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

Last week I heard the same thing from some LC family members. So casually they speak about "making up classes at summer school" referring to a thousand years of outer darkness.

WL used this teaching to subjugate all of his adherents. Firstly he constantly condemned the whole of the body of Christ -- none of them had a chance. Next, inside the LCM, we were constantly given the impression that only those in the leadership at LSM had a "chance."

But how can this be after we learn the real stories of corruption at LSM. Will God overlook their deception, slander, coverups, swindling, etc. etc. -- just because these folks used the "correct" name for their franchise "churches?" How does anyone believe that?

Look at brother Titus Chu in Cleveland -- condemned, banned, shamed, and quarantined by LSM -- yet I hear this 80 y.o. brother spends much of his time on mainland China teaching the saints there -- one of the reasons they banned him.

Do LC folks really expect the Lord Jesus will judge these "condemned" ministers the same way as Lee and the Blendeds at LSM have done?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Last week I heard the same thing from some LC family members. So casually they speak about "making up classes at summer school" referring to a thousand years of outer darkness.

Yes. That's the same thing as I mentioned earlier about making the neck-chopping gesture with my hand to other brothers. We all knew what that meant - having our heads roll in the Tribulation was the only way we were getting in! (almost always resulting in pained laughter and head nodding in agreement) We "knew" according to the LC teaching there was no other way for us to get into the kingdom.

Bottom line here, Drake & Evan, is there are many on here who said they picked up the so-called "thousand years in outer darkness" concept from WL, and that teaching was pushed to an unhealthy extreme. Okay, maybe things have changed now (you both seem to infer that) in the LC and this is no longer pushed as a major doctrine, but I'm here to testify that it was certainly quite thick when I was around the LC last, back in the 1980s.

Now, with that said, it in no way negates that the word definitely & repeatedly shows accountability for our works; the things done while in the body! We're just pointing out that the pendulum swung too far to an extreme in the LC regarding this teaching.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Bottom line here, Drake & Evan, is there are many on here who said they picked up the so-called "thousand years in outer darkness" concept from WL, and that teaching was pushed to an unhealthy extreme. Okay, maybe things have changed now (you both seem to infer that) in the LC and this is no longer pushed as a major doctrine, but I'm here to testify that it was certainly quite thick when I was around the LC last, back in the 1980s.

Now, with that said, it in no way negates that the word definitely & repeatedly shows accountability for our works; the things done while in the body! We're just pointing out that the pendulum swung too far to an extreme in the LC regarding this teaching.

Nope. Not my experience in 4 decades. Not my wife’s experience. Not anyone else that I know. There was no pushing it to any extreme ...anymore then your note keeps pushing it to extreme. Your last paragraph to balance out the front part of your note is no different in principle. (And if you keep balancing your posts you too will be remembered for your extremist views on accountability. )

Or for that matter, the discussion of the topic in this forum... another example... we talk about it here but we don’t talk about it in every other thread. Brother Lee was faithful to speak on the subject wherever it came up in the Word... Revelation, Matthew, and other relevant topics such as the Kingdom. Compare his ministry.... see how much of it was about outer darkness verses the other aspects of the Christian life, Christ and the Church, the Triune God, God’s eternal purpose, the mingled spirit, the Body and Bride of Christ, the Building of God. the life practices, etc. etc. Then come back and advise us whether he over emphasized outer darkness.... I know what you will find because I have read it for over 40 years.

Now, if someone wants to charge Brother Lee emphasized the kingdom... well, then they may have a point.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nope. Not my experience in 4 decades. Not my wife’s experience. Not anyone else that I know. There was no pushing it to any extreme ...anymore then your note keeps pushing it to extreme. Your last paragraph to balance out the front part of your note is no different in principle. (And if you keep balancing your posts you too will be remembered for your extremist views on accountability. )

Or for that matter, the discussion of the topic in this forum... another example... we talk about it here but we don’t talk about it in every other thread. Brother Lee was faithful to speak on the subject wherever it came up in the Word... Revelation, Matthew, and other relevant topics such as the Kingdom. Compare his ministry.... see how much of it was about outer darkness verses the other aspects of the Christian life, Christ and the Church, the Triune God, God’s eternal purpose, the mingled spirit, the Body and Bride of Christ, the Building of God. the life practices, etc. etc. Then come back and advise us whether he over emphasized outer darkness.... I know what you will find because I have read it for over 40 years.

Now, if someone wants to charge Brother Lee emphasized the kingdom... well, then they may have a point.

Drake

Nevertheless, I remember sitting in a meeting. Not sure who was speaking. Also not sure the location or exact date either, but pretty sure it would have been Berkeley (or perhaps a training) in the mid-70s. Stories were conveyed in the meeting about people who left. I remember one story in particular, about a brother who had been around a while and decided to leave the LC. A week later he was out mowing his lawn with an electric mower and ran across the cord - he was electrocuted and was killed immediately. There was a hush in the meeting and you could feel the awe and fear come over everyone. We were told something to the affect, "God takes the Recovery very seriously, and if you leave there will be consequences!" IT HAPPENED AND REGARDLESS WHAT YOU SAY, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THAT.

This kind of talk, which was brought up from time to time, had a very real effect on me for years. I remember working underneath my car, which was up on jacks (this would be around 1990). The thought came to me, "God is going to kick out these jacks and kill you right now because you've left the LC." I remember the fear that came over me. But then it hit me that God didn't need to resort to such things if He really wanted to take me. And besides, how could I resist Him anyway!? The whole notion was really silly and I had the strength to dismiss it as an attack of the enemy, and I don't think it every came back or at least not in the same way. I know, it's almost laughable now, but it happened.

Drake, I'm glad this wasn't your experience, but it was mine. I wish I could remember more details about where and when and who spoke it, but it also was not a one time thing and was common knowledge in the localities I was in.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Drake, I'm glad this wasn't your experience, but it was mine. I wish I could remember more details about where and when and who spoke it, but it also was not a one time thing and was common knowledge in the localities I was in.

My wife and I experienced a very similar thing in 2015/16. We were told that if we wanted to see a fruitful marriage/family we needed to stay in the Witness Lee churches (this was in Anaheim). I heard this very specifically stated, but also heard it many, many times through more indirect and passive statements.

I met with the Witness Lee churches for a year and encountered those from different parts of the state and a few from around the country. I can not believe that Drake hasn't experienced this - it runs counter to the entire culture of the Witness Lee church that I was a part of.

My marriage, kids, etc - are so awesome - praise and glory to God - and all this outside of the Witness Lee churches (far away). It is sad that folks are subject to these fear tactics and lies. I would love for those stuck within the LSM church to see my life, family, ministry, the good the bad, the highs the lows, and see that Jesus is the real deal and by his grace we find His truth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Nevertheless, I remember sitting in a meeting. Not sure who was speaking. Also not sure the location or exact date either, but pretty sure it would have been Berkeley (or perhaps a training) in the mid-70s. Stories were conveyed in the meeting about people who left. I remember one story in particular, about a brother who had been around a while and decided to leave the LC. A week later he was out mowing his lawn with an electric mower and ran across the cord - he was electrocuted and was killed immediately. There was a hush in the meeting and you could feel the awe and fear come over everyone. We were told something to the affect, "God takes the Recovery very seriously, and if you leave there will be consequences!" IT HAPPENED AND REGARDLESS WHAT YOU SAY, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THAT.

None of us should try to persuade Drake of what we have seen or heard in the LCM, but "we know what we know" ...

This is how it always went folks:

• If hardship befalls those inside the LC's, then we heard comments like, "the enemy always fights hardest against the saints," or "the Lord really loves him/her, and wants to gain their hearts," or "this just proves how much the enemy is out to get our families," etc.

• But if hardship befalls those outside the LC's, especially those who have left the LCM, then we heard comments like, "the Lord really means business in these days," or "don't play games with His testimony," or "see, if you leave the recovery, you leave the Lord's blessing."

Thus, they can have it both ways. Self-reinforcing circular reasoning in action.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

You say it so much better than I do.


Fear with "Overcomer." Overcoming meant that we had to be more given. more committed, and more driven for "the ministry."

Overcomers are special. They aren't like the rest of the ordinary saints. They're the ones that are truest to Lee, like the Blended Brothers, the living example of what it means to be an Overcomer.

Then ... if you aren't going to be a overcomer, you risk outer darkness ... and then fear stepped up.

I see cultic methodologies going on?

Nothing like this is taught in the local churches or by Nee or Lee and I have never heard of outer darkness being used as a weapon of fear. You have this perspective about overcomers because you are viewing them from the point of view your own degraded condition.

Rather than overcomers being someone special above and beyond a "normal Christian" - an overcomer is someone who is a normal Christian. Every believer is meant to be an overcomer.

In other words, it is not that the bar to be an overcomer is set too high above and beyond a normal or ordinary believer, it is that the bar to being an overcomer is set at 'normal' but it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition.

[Evangelical]

As much as some of you have tried to exaggerate the teachings about outer darkness and the supposed fear it brings - I think it pales in comparison to Christian teachings about hell and eternal torment, particularly those which do not believe in eternal security (and there are many of them). Youtube is full of them.

Some have alleged or implied that the outer darkness teaching is meant to keep people in the recovery. I find that unlikely given that the non-OSAS teachings are better suited for that.

The outer darkness teaching serves no purpose to the recovery other than being a way to reconcile Arminian and Calvinist teachings with a view towards unity. For this reason the teaching is unifying, not divisive. It lets the Calvinist believe that they will not lose their salvation, and it assures the Arminian that no crime will go unpunished.

[awareness]

EvanG, yer such a sweet heart.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nothing like this is taught in the local churches or by Nee or Lee and I have never heard of outer darkness being used as a weapon of fear. You have this perspective about overcomers because you are viewing them from the point of view your own degraded condition.

Thanks for the belly laugh. I rest my case.

Originally Posted by E Man

Rather than overcomers being someone special above and beyond a "normal Christian" - an overcomer is someone who is a normal Christian. Every believer is meant to be an overcomer.

In other words, it is not that the bar to be an overcomer is set too high above and beyond a normal or ordinary believer, it is that the bar to being an overcomer is set at 'normal' but it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition.

If there's overcomer's there's undergoer's, or some such. Overcomer's are more given, undergoer's, not so much.

Your statement, "it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition," proves my point.

Thanks for your good hearted reply bro Mr. E.