Outer Darkness?

[UntoHim]

What is the part of my post that you quoted that is not a fact?
-

[aron]

The RecV footnotes in Rev 20 & 12 verify what was clearly and repeatedly taught: that participants in the Millennium were either killed (martyred) during the church age or the great tribulation, OR got raptured at the start of the GT. No other route was offered.

It seems current LSM operatives either studiously ignore this teaching, or try to quietly modify it. But back in the day, it couldn't have been made more categorically clear, and as UntoHim and others relate, it was often held over us.

But now Lee, by not being either killed or raptured, has fallen in his own pit that he's dug for himself.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

The RecV footnotes in Rev 20 & 12 verify what was clearly and repeatedly taught: that participants in the Millennium were either killed (martyred) during the church age or the great tribulation, OR got raptured at the start of the GT. No other route was offered.

It seems current LSM operatives either studiously ignore this teaching, or try to quietly modify it. But back in the day, it couldn't have been made more categorically clear, and as UntoHim and others relate, it was often held over us.

But now Lee, by not being either killed or raptured, has fallen in his own pit that he's dug for himself.

Aron,

Your post is uninformed .... perhaps willfully.

Read post #116 carefully. Believers are harvested before, during, and at the end of the great tribulation. Then...

“When the Lord Jesus returns, He will first terminate the false Christians, burning up all the false Christians, the tares. Then He will take up all the real ones into the air according to their maturity. At His judgment seat in the air, He will exercise His judgment over all the real Christians to decide who will be selected and chosen. Those will be the overcomers who will return to the earth and fight against the rebellious army of Antichrist. After defeating Antichrist and his army, the overcomers will be Christ’s co-kings, reigning with Him in His kingdom on the earth,” Witness Lee

In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It was very common for us young brothers in the LC to look at each other and say something like, "Well this is the only way we're getting in (to the millennial feast)!" and would make a gesture of neck-chopping with our hand (as in beheading). We would all knowingly nod and laugh in a pained sort of humor . . .

I also remember the pained sort of humour. The oracle has spoken, told us our destiny, and now we deal with it. Slogans were born, "Even when he's wrong he's right" or "raptured or martyred" were examples.

But according to Drake we mis-remember? Hard to believe if what we heard was made so stark.

Originally Posted by Drake

“When the Lord Jesus returns, He will first terminate the false Christians, burning up all the false Christians, the tares. Then He will take up all the real ones into the air according to their maturity. At His judgment seat in the air, He will exercise His judgment over all the real Christians to decide who will be selected and chosen. Those will be the overcomers who will return to the earth and fight against the rebellious army of Antichrist. After defeating Antichrist and his army, the overcomers will be Christ’s co-kings, reigning with Him in His kingdom on the earth,” Witness Lee

In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army.

Drake

Please show the RecV footnote that supports the second paragraph. I've seen footnotes of verses for the quoted part. But nothing for the second part.

It may be that WL was so convinced that the Lord would return for himself and his followers in the LC that he simply glossed over the second part, of the believers who have gone on before. And now that he's died we mis-interpret his mis-emphasis? Again, the parallel for Darby is worth noting. Darby was absolutely convinced that Jesus would return to take him & the Brethren alive.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Please show the RecV footnote that supports the second paragraph. I've seen footnotes of verses for the quoted part. But nothing for the second part.

ummm. aron.

Let me get this rock fetch straight.... you want what about this statement?

"In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army."

... because you do not believe Witness Lee taught which part?

Exactly, what did he not teach about that statement that you want a reference of?

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

ummm. aron.

Let me get this rock fetch straight.... you want what about this statement?

"In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army."

... because you do not believe Witness Lee taught which part?

It's called a footnote. You are giving me a statement with no source. You often ask for sources of statements; so where is the Biblical source (verse + RecV footnote) for your assertion of Lee's supposed teaching?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

It's called a footnote. You are giving me a statement with no source. You often ask for sources of statements; so where is the Biblical source (verse + RecV footnote) for your assertion of Lee's supposed teaching?

I will give you a reference..... however, I am asking specifically what aspect of the statement are you in disbelief about?

You don't think Witness Lee believed the dead in Christ can be overcomers? You don't think he thought they would be raised at His coming? You don't think he believed they would be judged at His coming?

Be specific.

I'm asking you to be specific because I heard variations of that statement from Witness lee so many times that I find it incredulous that you doubt he believed and taught every word of it. It is so fundamental to his eschatology.

However, it has been decades and perhaps time is taking its toll. So, be specific about the things you do not think he believed. If there are multiple items list them.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

The RecV footnotes in Rev 20 & 12 verify what was clearly and repeatedly taught: that participants in the Millennium were either killed (martyred) during the church age or the great tribulation, OR got raptured at the start of the GT. No other route was offered.

It seems current LSM operatives either studiously ignore this teaching, or try to quietly modify it. But back in the day, it couldn't have been made more categorically clear, and as UntoHim and others relate, it was often held over us.

It was very common for us young brothers in the LC to look at each other and say something like, "Well this is the only way we're getting in (to the millennial feast)!" and would make a gesture of neck-chopping with our hand (as in beheading). We would all knowingly nod and laugh in a pained sort of humor . . .

In fact, a brother and I used to do that as recently as maybe 10-15 years ago in Scottsdale. Thankfully we've received (and are receiving) fresh light from the Lord! (And it was a fresh knowing of His love that started opening the word to us in a clearer way.)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What is the part of my post that you quoted that is not a fact?
-

UntoHim,

We’ve already covered this ground..To recount...

In #149 I laid out what was inaccurate and irrational about your #139 post. I also interpreted the characterizations of your experience stated in #139 as “dreaded”..... Oh, the drudgery of it all! Meeting after meeting, conference after conference, the pounding into your head, the ingraining of messages into the faithful! Oh, that pray reading! The agony of calling on the Lord! I pity the gullible. Thank God I, UntoHim, am enlightened now and not like that Drake who lives a sheltered church life! ....

Is it more accurate to interpret your description as joyful?

In response to “dreaded” you emphatically stated in #155 that you never shared your experience in recent posts. To that I pointed out in post #156 that in post #139 you used the phrase “many of us were not so lucky” while describing events and practices in the local churches in your time there.

If you are not included in the “us” part of your statement then what exactly do you mean by “us” if it doesn’t include you? If by “not so lucky” you did not mean your church life experience was dreaded then exactly where on the scale of dissatisfaction do you put your experience? I mean seriously brother, one only needs to read one of your colorful tirades against Brother Lee and the local churches to know just how discontented you are about the whole experience.

And yet, it was your experience and I’m not refuting that... but what you cannot get over is that I went through all the same trainings, conferences, meetings, life practices, and the storms.... no shelter there. Just a different outcome. I might have even sat next to you or perhaps we had a meal together. What I can tell you is that after 40 years in the local churches and under this ministry I love the Lord Jesus more than ever, He continues to shine, draw, and impart life into me. And I really hope you too have found the peace that passes all understanding and that He has given you a joyful heart wherever you ended up.

Drake