How Much To Throw Out?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Dear LC Lurkers,

If the elders in your locality look to the writings of WL before they look to the Bible, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality consider WL to be their spiritual father, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality teach that only LSM associated local churches are the genuine church of Jesus Christ, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality care for the human needs of only those absolute for the ministry of WL, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality teach that all other Christian groups are prostitutes, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality teach that only LSM approved music is acceptable to God, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality warn the saints to ignore their consciences, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If the elders in your locality try to hide the sins of elders and LSM officials, then your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits.

If you sense that your locality may be under the influence of evil spirits, then pray that the Father would open your eyes to what you need to see, and close your eyes to things you don't need to see.

If any of the elders in your locality or blended brothers at LSM claim to have drunk from WL's spirit or from the spirit of any man except Christ, then run like hell because they are certifiably crazy (in my opinion).

Wow! Saw this back in posts from 2015 and thought it was good to reprint for us three years later.

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the notion that Lee had any kind of inside track to God's mind or will because although Lee heard from God that he should start an RV manufacturing business he did not hear the part about the oil crisis that would occur to kill the RV endeavor. If Lee really heard from God to start an RV manufacturing business, then God threw Lee under the RV bus by not telling him that the oil crisis was coming. I don't think it's healthy to follow anyone as an apostle who God has thrown under the bus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm throwing out the notion that Lee had any kind of inside track to God's mind or will because although Lee heard from God that he should start an RV manufacturing business he did not hear the part about the oil crisis that would occur to kill the RV endeavor. If Lee really heard from God to start an RV manufacturing business, then God threw Lee under the RV bus by not telling him that the oil crisis was coming. I don't think it's healthy to follow anyone as an apostle who God has thrown under the bus.

Daystar was fraught with fraud. The oil crisis was just a convenient foil.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Daystar was fraught with fraud. The oil crisis was just a convenient foil.

But even if it wasn't fraught with fraud, HERn's point remains. Lee promised that God would bless the endevour with positive cash flow, and it was instead financial disaster. "God blew on it", I heard several LC'ers remark. Why did God blow on the vision of "the apostle of the age", to have it fall with a crash, as in Jesus' parable (Matt 7:24-27)?

And I'll go further: I'm throwing out the idea that Witness Lee was "the" apostle, or even "an" apostle, if he was leveraging his position to borrow $100K from Sal Benoit and the believers in Massachusetts. Positive cash flow or not, he was wrong hitting up church members for $$ for his kid's business. Totally unethical. (And I presume that what we have documented from MA was repeated around the country. We don't know how much in total flowed from local churches to Phosphorous to Daystar to Timothy Lee).

And I'm throwing out the idea that there was no "fallen human culture" in the Lord's recovery if the Daystar and Philip Lee as "The Office" episodes had to be hush-hushed and covered over, so that the "apostle" couldn't lose face post-blunder. Instead, we got these weird, "God blew on it" and "ambitious men rebelled" stories. Suddenly we had to "cover drunken Noah". Huh?

"People change", said Lee. Yeah, and some people don't change. Lee was in the iron grip of his native culture. As soon as push came to shove, God's New Testament Economy went bye-bye.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

But even if it wasn't fraught with fraud, HERn's point remains. Lee promised that God would bless the endeavour with positive cash flow, and it was instead financial disaster. "God blew on it", I heard several LC'ers remark. Why did God blow on the vision of "the apostle of the age", to have it fall with a crash, as in Jesus' parable (Matt 7:24-27)?

Agreed.

In those early days in Ohio, whenever catching wind of the Daystar fiasco, I would hear about the Oil Embargo. It affected everyone, so it was a convenient blame.

I knew nothing about the entire episode, yet I was filled with falsehoods in its aftermath. Brothers today still believe that every "investor" was reimbursed. Lee was portrayed as a persecuted victim of OPEC. No one discussed illegalities or a golden parachute for the Lee family.

TC always ensured that the Midwest maintained a pristine image of Lee. Why would he do that? If the leader was never held accountable, what would that do to the entire LC movement? TC always presented himself as a more spiritual and more faithful supporter of WL than any of those WL surrounded himself with. Looking back, it was a failed strategy. It protected the guilty, and threw the innocent under the motorhome.

[eDh22]

I'm throwing out....the need to get or give a resounding AMEN after every uttered phrase!

I've been told over the years that I use A LOT of spoken fillers. I didn't realize how much until I watched an hour video of myself conversing. I interjected a "yes", "uh huh", "I see" every time someone so much as took a breath in the conversation. It was so odd to view 3rd person - the only thing it finally reminded me of was a Local Church prayer meeting. I still carry with me the practice of reinforcing every few words uttered with a confirmation.

Anyone else still talk in a funny diction? Feel the need to pray in sing-song?

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

[Cal]

Originally Posted by eDh22

I'm throwing out....the need to get or give a resounding AMEN after every uttered phrase!

I've been told over the years that I use A LOT of spoken fillers. I didn't realize how much until I watched an hour video of myself conversing. I interjected a "yes", "uh huh", "I see" every time someone so much as took a breath in the conversation. It was so odd to view 3rd person - the only thing it finally reminded me of was a Local Church prayer meeting. I still carry with me the practice of reinforcing every few words uttered with a confirmation.

Anyone else still talk in a funny diction? Feel the need to pray in sing-song?

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

One thing a group like the LR does is compromise your self-esteem and self-respect and make it dependent upon the approval of others and the group. This is actually almost exactly the opposite of how God wants us to be. He wants us to respect ourselves and not need the approval of others. Now, there is nothing wrong with desiring and appreciating the LOVE of others. But approval is not love. Love is unconditional. Approval is by definition based on other's admiration of our behavior.

Again there is balance. If I cook a good meal and everyone praises it, it is normal for me to feel good about that. But if I LIVE to seek the approval of others, I am emotionally and probably morally compromised. That's what the amens do.

Bottom line: Your ultimate sense of self worth must come from how God feels about you, not how anyone else does. You are a beloved child of God, no matter what anyone else thinks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by eDh22

I'm throwing out....the need to get or give a resounding AMEN after every uttered phrase!

I've been told over the years that I use A LOT of spoken fillers. I didn't realize how much until I watched an hour video of myself conversing. I interjected a "yes", "uh huh", "I see" every time someone so much as took a breath in the conversation. It was so odd to view 3rd person - the only thing it finally reminded me of was a Local Church prayer meeting. I still carry with me the practice of reinforcing every few words uttered with a confirmation.

Anyone else still talk in a funny diction? Feel the need to pray in sing-song?

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

It's good that you got some self-feedback. I remember watching meeting film in fast forward, the arm going up and down high speed was so abnormal to look at.

We all spoke a little funny. I eventually purged myself of "High Peak" doctrines when I realized that I could only speak this stuff 5 min a week in the meetings.

Years ago, a Midwest brother commented that we pray in 6.7.6.7 meter. We all laughed, but he had a point. At some point I stopped the rhythm of my prayers, and slowed down to find the Lord in my heart. Metered prayer rhythms just became too exhausting.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by eDh22

Confession. I do miss getting those AMENS several times a week. No one may have really been listening, I may not have really meant or understood what I said, but I was receiving affirmation that I belonged to a group...as long as I did funny-speak with them

It took me a long time to decompress. Let me give a couple of examples that might help.

1. It took me a long time to understand I didn't need to get the pastors' permission on something I wanted to do, like start a bible study or some other act of service or ministry. They just don't have the same overbearing attitude. Leaders are servants, not lords.
   
   
2. It took me a long time to realize that the Church is everywhere and that service can occur anywhere. It doesn't have to be in the context of an officially organized local church. The Church is much more fluid than that. So if you have a particular gift, you don't necessarily need to find a perfect way to fit it into your particular local church. You gift may be, and often is, better expressed in some ministry or service outside the jurisdiction of your particular church leaders. They may just not have a place for what you are best at. Don't worry about it! Find a way to use your gift among the Church-at-large, wherever that might be.

[Adelphos]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wow! Saw this back in posts from 2015 and thought it was good to reprint for us three years later.

Wow! Thanks.

[HERn]

Have you ever been cursed by a "fellow Christian"?

Benson Phillips preached to me at a conference that I will never go on with the Lord Jesus in sanctification and will not be blessed if I leave the LR. Well, my family has been gone since 2012 and have a vital Christian life in a local community church, thus proving Benson Phillips is a liar and functioning as an evil witch by cursing God's children.

I'm throwing out the belief that any officers in LSM have any useful comments to make to edify God's children. Everything they say must be evaluated with scripture. Anything not in agreement with scripture must be thrown out.

[HERn]

My son just told me that my grandkids are smoking pot with church kids in his locality. They are absolute for the ministry in the young people's meeting, then get stupid smoking pot.

I'm throwing out the belief that LC church kids are more sanctified than those in the hated denominations.

[jigsaw44]

To be honest, LC kids are just a bunch of indivudals that literally has been born in an unfortunately church lifestyle. Im not surprised they smoke pot in secret- it probably helps them escape the nonsense they are forced into. I can only imagine if they have really strict LC loyalist parents, that control their everyday lifestyles. Kids are just kids, let the LC exalt their members however they want- its all delusion to anyone that is not damn near blind to the deception of man. Honestly who knows why they smoke pot, but if they had the basic experiences and privilege's of a child- they probably wouldn't rely on it to satisfy their desires.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

To be honest, LC kids are just a bunch of indivudals that literally has been born in an unfortunately church lifestyle. Im not surprised they smoke pot in secret- it probably helps them escape the nonsense they are forced into. I can only imagine if they have really strict LC loyalist parents, that control their everyday lifestyles. Kids are just kids, let the LC exalt their members however they want- its all delusion to anyone that is not damn near blind to the deception of man. Honestly who knows why they smoke pot, but if they had the basic experiences and privilege's of a child- they probably wouldn't rely on it to satisfy their desires.

Jigsaw, are you an LC kid? I was born in it and raised in it. And hell, did it screw up with my outlook on life and everything. I used to be so immersed in those life studies, reading book after book, trying to get as many “gold nuggets” as possible. I have to give it props that some things were really thought out in those books but after being almost a decade out of LC, I can say that now whenever I go back to read them out of curiosity, there is always one thing on each page that makes me cringe or not settle the right way in my being.

[jigsaw44]

I came in the LC as a young adult. But I do see the lifestyles and outlook of the confined freedom the kids have. Alot of kids I can tell don't care about the LC and try to be like the kids around them at school and the real world. When they move out the house, I doubt they will stick long. I also feel bad of how joyful the kids are when they are young but as soon as they get older and older they will start to question and wonder why they cant do certain things or be a certain way.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Have you ever been cursed by a "fellow Christian"?

Benson Phillips preached to me at a conference that I will never go on with the Lord Jesus in sanctification and will not be blessed if I leave the LR. Well, my family has been gone since 2012 and have a vital Christian life in a local community church, thus proving Benson Phillips is a liar and functioning as an evil witch by cursing God's children.

I'm throwing out the belief that any officers in LSM have any useful comments to make to edify God's children. Everything they say must be evaluated with scripture. Anything not in agreement with scripture must be thrown out.

Wow - this has to be one of the longest and oldest (started 2014) ongoing threads on this forum, if not the very longest! (UntoHim - does HERn get a prize or sumptin for starting this one? ) Without searching through all nearly 1000 posts, I'm curious . . . has anybody done a summary listing of things brought up to throw out?

[HERn]

I’m throwing out the assumption that the teaching in the LC does not lead to idolatry of the individual and self.

Might one of the problems with the LC hemorrhaging its young people be related to its focus on “I’m a man I’m the meaning of the universe” rather than “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

Quote from Mark Noll
“When young people think only of what religion brings to them by way of self-fulfillment, there is a danger of creating a religion that centers around “me.” All the traditional religions call that idolatry rather than true religion.”

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionand...terview/11416/

[JJ]

Great post Hern,

One need only count how many times I, me, and my appears on LC writings and songs to see how self-centered the LC and LSM are.

Hymn 537 (http://www.churchinmontereypark.org/...hymns/537.html) has six in the chorus alone and two per stanza.

At a Lord’s table meeting in 2015, the year I left, it hit me that we were all worshipping ourselves rather than the Father. I stood up to say so, and never went back.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I’m throwing out the assumption that the teaching in the LC does not lead to idolatry of the individual and self.

Might one of the problems with the LC hemorrhaging its young people be related to its focus on “I’m a man I’m the meaning of the universe” rather than “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

“When young people think only of what religion brings to them by way of self-fulfillment, there is a danger of creating a religion that centers around “me.” All the traditional religions call that idolatry rather than true religion.”

When I came into the LC, nobody was paying attention to me at home, at school, at my family's church. But in the LC I got love-bombed, and found out it was all about me. Wow! Wonderful. I was enamored, seduced. As the new one, I was the center and focus of the LC meeting. All the old-timers crowded round, after services ended, wanting me over for dinner, picnics, cookouts, wanted me to meet their children. I was flattered. I thought this was great - I was a VIP.

And all the messages reflected and amplified this. Both the song saying, "I'm a man - I'm the center of the universe" and statement "I can exercise my human spirit" exemplify that. (Actually it was, "Ayyyyeee caaaan exercise miiiiiyyyyyyy huuuuuuuumannnnn SPIIIIIRRRIIIITTT!" [Ayyyyeeeemmmmeeeeyyyynnnnn!!!])

And then the song, "So subjective is my Christ in me, real in me and rich and sweet. All my desires he exceeds..." Notice how "me" is the focus, the subject, and "Christ" is an object of manipulation. And, "Weeee are drinking at the fountain that can never run dry" - it was all about us, our drinking, our thirst, our satisfaction, our rest. Christ was reduced to an object, a tool. But I was so enamored that I didn't bother to notice.

Eventually we found out it was really all about the ministry, the Body, the local ground, the New Way, the Vital Groups, the apostle, the seer of the divine revelation, God's oracle, the deputy God, and today's Moses, aka prolific book author and self-publisher. Only later still did we learn about motor homes, men's suits, gold chairs, and other merchandising schemes. But by then many were besotted by the kingdom of self and couldn't tell left from right, up from down, black from white. Nope, now the fixation was all about our enjoyment, our human spirit, our satisfaction and our rest.

Needless to say it's an effective stratagem. Even when seeing repeated, clear biblical warnings one thinks, "No, that can't be about me". I know this points to the current "Fearing God" discussion, but it relates here, too - think of James 4 for example. Who's he talking to? Unbelievers and reprobates? No, he's writing to the 12 tribes in dispersion - the Jewish Christians of his day. But it was fully applicable to the gentile. James was writing to disciples, who believed into and followed Jesus as Lord. He was giving them a diagnosis and an antidote:

Verse 1: "wars and fightings among you"
v 2: "ye lust and have not"
v 4: "adulterers and adulteresses"
v 8: "cleanse your hands, ye sinners"
v 11: "he speaks evil of his brother and judges him"
v 14: "your life is a vapour that vanisheth away"
v 16: "you rejoice in your boastings, which is evil"

He's writing this to believers, but why? He's trying to save them from themselves. James loves them. He's trying to rescue them. He's shepherding them. He's not puffing them up and manipulating them and merchandising them. He's pointing them to the Way. Notice how many times he says, "brethren" and "beloved brethren". He loves them, and doesn't want them to fall by the wayside. And self is one of the biggest ditches around.