Question of salvation and reconciliation.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

While you're wondering about "the tone of many of the conversations on here", may we wonder about your tone as well? Do you really think your joke is appropriate? Many on this forum have been gutted by LC leadership and members. If you really think the "main purpose" is to point out flaws of other believers, you have totally missed the point of the entire forum, and if you really think that's something to joke about, you are clueless.



You understand that for you to say “I know, I know” conveys both a dismissive and condescending tone? "Supposedly" about helping others...? Perhaps you should acknowledge your own critical and judgmental spirit. Your "tone" not only minimizes but makes jokes about the pain of your own brothers and sisters who were abused in that system. Can we say your critical and judgmental and dismissive spirit is also NOT Christ?

What is YOUR focus? Is it your "focus" to defend those who abuse the Lord's brothers? Is YOUR focus "Christ"?



Are you assuming that you are the only one who prays about your words, before posting?



Here we go. Sure. There is room for love and forgiveness for the LC leadership and members who "have been" and still are in error. But it would really help if you all would repent. That is, have a change of heart and mind. Stop your sinning against your brothers and sisters. Make amends.

Can you be "in error" and "in Christ" at the same time? Can you abuse someone while you are "in Christ"?

"Love and forgiveness" is a two-way street. That's where it starts. You can't expect someone else to "love and forgive" while your sin continues...while your "error" continues. And when someone has had enough abuse, they finally find their voice and begin to TELL THE TRUTH about the one/s abusing them, you accuse them of not loving and not forgiving. This is gross hypocrisy.



To the sober minded man, no. Hypocrisy does not make sense.

But, we've heard this before. There are plenty of posts on this forum like yours...it’s the classic "blame the victim" post. You blame the victim for not being "in Christ" while excusing the abuser who claims to be "in Christ". You expect "love and forgiveness" toward those LC'ers who (admittedly) have been in error, but you have NO love and NO compassion for those who cannot take the abuse any longer. Some of us have finally found our voice to speak the truth to those who have little or no capacity, or will, to hear. As Ohio said, no one is listening.

Nell

All good points, Nell. It is a very sensitive topic, to be sure. I certainly don't want to try and minimize the hurt & damage others have felt.

Yes, it is hard and maybe impossible for us to forgive. Fortunately it was not impossible for God in Christ to forgive, while sinners were unrighteously torturing and putting Him to a degrading death.

One thing about unforgiveness is what it does to the person holding on to it. Corrie ten Boom also found it impossible to forgive the "monster" Nazi officer who had carries out heinous things against others in the concentration camp she was in. Yet, after the war there he was, standing in front of her, a new creation in Christ (and forgiven by Christ). Impossible to forgive his overt brutality, and she experienced that. When she knew 100% she wasn't capable of the least bit of forgiveness to him, then God had a way. She experienced God's overwhelming forgiveness - what a gift of freedom to her bitter heart!

Has there been a ton of bad things done by the LC, LSM, WL et. al.? Sure. Have many been hurt by their actions? You bet!

But where do we go from here?

Again, sorry if I offended. I just know one day there will be accountability for all in His body and how we handled one another in love. Real love. His love.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

All good points, Nell. It is a very sensitive topic, to be sure. I certainly don't want to try and minimize the hurt & damage others have felt.

Yes, it is hard and maybe impossible for us to forgive. Fortunately it was not impossible for God in Christ to forgive, while sinners were unrighteously torturing and putting Him to a degrading death.

So you think those being abused by the LC leadership and other LC members should just shut up and forgive the LC abusers? Do you think speaking the truth about your abuser means you are living in "unforgiveness?" Isn't the abuser living in great sin and need in need of rescue? Isn't the abuser in need of someone confronting him/her about their behavior? Who is in worse condition, the abuser or those being abused? The abusers are supposed to be the shepherds of the flock. What is their accountability...not only to the sheep, but the One who entrusted them to care for His flock?

It's not really about the abused walking in "unforgiveness" is it? This is an extension of the "blame the victim" myth. You can't abuse someone then stand over them and preach to them about being "unforgiving."

One thing about unforgiveness is what it does to the person holding on to it. Corrie ten Boom also found it impossible to forgive the "monster" Nazi officer who had carries out heinous things against others in the concentration camp she was in. Yet, after the war there he was, standing in front of her, a new creation in Christ (and forgiven by Christ). Impossible to forgive his overt brutality, and she experienced that. When she knew 100% she wasn't capable of the least bit of forgiveness to him, then God had a way. She experienced God's overwhelming forgiveness - what a gift of freedom to her bitter heart!

Really? You're going there? Did the German SS need the Jews to forgive them so they could continue their slaughter of innocent Jews? Or did the German SS need to STOP, or be stopped, in its war against God's people?

The message of unforgiveness is best delivered by the Holy Spirit, as with CTB. Take the wife beater who is forgiven by the wife while he continues to beat her until he kills her. Do you think the wife beater is concerned about what "unforgiveness" does to his wife? Only to the extent that it enables him to beat her.

Has there been a ton of bad things done by the LC, LSM, WL et. al.? Sure. Have many been hurt by their actions? You bet!

But where do we go from here?

Again, sorry if I offended. I just know one day there will be accountability for all in His body and how we handled one another in love. Real love. His love.

Is anyone in the LC leadership or membership ASKING for forgiveness? As Ohio and I both are trying to tell you. NO! No one is asking for forgiveness. Your preaching to the victims of abuse about what unforgiveness does to them is gross.

Where do YOU go from here? Go to the LC leadership and preach your message to THEM.

Go to THEM with their "ton of bad things done by the LC, LSM, WL et. al.? Sure. Have many been hurt by their actions? You bet! "

And stop trying to put a guilt trip on those of us who resist the abusers and their "ton of bad things" that continues to this day, and are trying to recover from the hurt inflicted on them by their bad actions. Your "message" is far worse for you than it is for us. It's not as offensive to me as maybe to some. The real problem I see, and the reason I'm fighting back, is the lies of the devil that the LC uses to justify its "bad behavior."

You're an "insider". You are responsible to stop the abuse. That's where you go from here.

If you're truly concerned about accountability, go to those who are perpetrating abuse on God's people.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

The message of unforgiveness is best delivered by the Holy Spirit

Nell

Lot's of pain here, so we'll just leave it at what you wrote (above).

BTW - I currently have no fellowship with anyone in the LC movement, unless you count a couple ones on this forum.

Grace to you and peace!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Lot's of pain here, so we'll just leave it at what you wrote (above).

BTW - I currently have no fellowship with anyone in the LC movement, unless you count a couple ones on this forum.

Grace to you and peace!

Pain? Are you, once again, dismissing what I'm saying because you think I'm speaking out of pain? Just take what I'm saying at face value and please don't read anything into this topic that isn't there.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

Pain? Are you, once again, dismissing what I'm saying because you think I'm speaking out of pain? Just take what I'm saying at face value and please don't read anything into this topic that isn't there.

Nell

Okay, I won't. Can you please forgive me?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, I won't. Can you please forgive me?

Yes. You are forgiven.
Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So you think those being abused by the LC leadership and other LC members should just shut up and forgive the LC abusers? Do you think speaking the truth about your abuser means you are living in "unforgiveness?" Isn't the abuser living in great sin and need in need of rescue? Isn't the abuser in need of someone confronting him/her about their behavior? Who is in worse condition, the abuser or those being abused? The abusers are supposed to be the shepherds of the flock. What is their accountability...not only to the sheep, but the One who entrusted them to care for His flock?

It's not really about the abused walking in "unforgiveness" is it? This is an extension of the "blame the victim" myth. You can't abuse someone then stand over them and preach to them about being "unforgiving."

Nell, I appreciate your candid, albeit blunt, assessment of LC leadership. It is not "Christian" leadership per se, but actually is abuse, and is accurately called "lording it over those entrusted" to these leaders. (I Peter 5.2-3) LSM has long ruled the LC's "by way of compulsion, not according to God, but seeking gain by base means."

I would add that LC leaders learn all their bad habits from regional and national workers at LSM. There is a grossly flawed pattern of authority taught and practiced by Witness Lee himself which has corrupted the entire leadership structure of the LCM. There is a disease of lust for power and control which has polluted the entire movement.

Don't you believe the sovereignty of the Lord over all things? If you think the brothers abused the saints... Why still be bothered by these things? Who are we to judge? Christ is the only righteous Judge. He sovereignly arranged everything for us to learn and grow in the divine life. The leading brothers may do a lot of "abusive" things over the flock, but it is not your business to point out these negative things for others, it is the Lord's. Simply pray for them that the Lord would bring everyone to the reality of the Body life. Don't look at your brothers' mistakes and flaws. Look away unto Jesus! Don't separate yourself from the fellowship of the Body. If you lose your fellowship with the saints in the churches, surely you also don't have fellowship with the Head. The Head and the Body are inseparable. Just remain in contact and in fellowship with the saints and enjoy Christ as our peace in the local church you belong. Much grace my dear brothers!

Your brother from the Philippines

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Simply your brother

Don't you believe the sovereignty of the Lord over all things? If you think the brothers abused the saints... Why still be bothered by these things? Who are we to judge? Christ is the only righteous Judge. He sovereignly arranged everything for us to learn and grow in the divine life. The leading brothers may do a lot of "abusive" things over the flock, but it is not your business to point out these negative things for others, it is the Lord's. Simply pray for them that the Lord would bring everyone to the reality of the Body life. Don't look at your brothers' mistakes and flaws. Look away unto Jesus! Don't separate yourself from the fellowship of the Body. If you lose your fellowship with the saints in the churches, surely you also don't have fellowship with the Head. The Head and the Body are inseparable. Just remain in contact and in fellowship with the saints and enjoy Christ as our peace in the local church you belong. Much grace my dear brothers!

Your brother from the Philippines

Are you saying that only your LC's are the body of Christ?

Are not all God's children a part of the body of Christ?