Bible Answer Man Converts to Eastern Orthodox!

[UntoHim]

Mr. E. Why do you think Hank Hanegraaff turned to the Orthodox Church instead of The Local Church of Witness Lee? He studied and actually participated in meetings/conferences of The Local Church for about 6 years, and as far as is publicly known, he never did a formal study or participated in the Orthodox Church for even 6 days. So why did he choose the Orthodox Church as a closer "expression of New Testament Christianity" than The Local Church? If, as Minoru Chen boasted, Hank's contact with the Local Church was "a life changing experience", why didn't he jump headfirst into "the glorious Church Life"? Instead, he chose to give the rest of his life to something closely related to "The Great Whore of Babylon"?
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[Sons to Glory!]

In reading through a lot of this old thread, it is most curious why bro Hank would choose EOC! Personally, if I had a choice between only the LC and the EOC, I would certainly have to pick the LC! To me, there is much more reality of the indwelling Christ, which I consider to be the central part of the New Covenant, in the LC than in the EOC. But, I have to admit, I really don't know a whole bunch about the EOC - maybe I should try it out!

Jus' kidding!

I believe that without the experience of the indwelling Christ, all Christians are doing is something of a different version of Judaism/outward law keeping. To me, this is the biggest lack in a Christian's experience (including me) and the teaching in Christendom - that is, not hearing and knowing His Son in reality, who is now the Spirit dwelling in His believers and not something outward. On the spectrum of listening to His speaking/prompting/leading within and total outward following, I think the EOC is far to the latter extreme. Am I wrong?

But some do like the more outward, physical structure to help them with the unseen faith thing . . .

[Sons to Glory!]

I mentioned to a brother about this thread. He was in Elden Hall early on and stuck with the LC for almost 10 years I think. Before that, he was a S. Baptist minister. Here's what he said regarding Hank going to the EOC.

I am slightly familiar with the "answer man thingie", not sure I ever heard it tho. So he went with the Eastern Orthodox, huh? Well, strange as it may seem to you, it is not that really strange to me. When we "bailed" [from the LC] in 1975 (October), give me some more time, and I think I could give you the hours and minutes, of my withdrawal. LOL

We were SO OUT, not sure you can get More out than we were. We got involved with a large evangelistic/charismatic church right after that. The church was full of both. A really great time. The pastor had been an AG credentialed guy, Got his doctorate in Scotland, got out of the Air Force, came to Abq, to start a new church. However, cause he did have AG approval to start on, they "jerked" his credentials. Well, what is a pastor, without credentials?

At that time there was a rather large movement among many groups come into a "one-ness". Even had that in its name. Pastor Ron was heavily involved with the group. He even signed up to become certified as a priest in the Episcopal church, and went thru the whole process becoming a deacon, and moving on up to full ordination. Which he did, and because he was in the process, he was limited by their discipline to perform a lot of ministerial functions, so this is where I came in. I preached for him, and led communion, which was the greatest expression of communion we had ever experienced.

That church was a salvation for our kids, we could have fully lost them has we remained in the LC.

We got involved with some 'retreats" and functions of that order, and were high as a hog. I knew I was headed back to the pastorate. I taught an adult class there, which became about the largest in the church. It didn't start out that way. During the coffee time, a few guys and I were out on the patio, and I was sharing somethings with them, and we were out there past the time SS was happening.

The pastor happened to come outside,and see us, and said, We will have to find a room for you guys to meet in, they found a small room, which we outfilled the first Sunday, then a larger room that we totally filled, then the largest room outside the sanctuary and the dining hall to meet in and we filled that too.

We had Sandia (Los Alamos) corporation engineers, lawyers, and doctors, could not round up any Indian Chief tho as hard as we might try. (you know: Dr's, lawyers, and Indian chiefs) Maybe you are too young.

Anyway, I did not have any problems at all at that time with Liturgical thingies. I even wore a robe for a wedding. How about that? I guess with Hank and me, we were trying to get as far away as we could from the LC.

Now, in all fairness, as he said he really doesn't know much about Hank. But I find it interesting that he said he didn't have any issues with many of the outward things! And he also said they were trying to get as far away from the LC as they could. (I don't know that this would be my reaction, but that was his.)

So what do you think the Lord cherishes the most? Hearts that are toward him, or having the right way of meeting?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In reading through a lot of this old thread, it is most curious why bro Hank would choose EOC!..

The EOC are focused on the indwelling Christ and the inner life I believe and in that way they are very similar to Nee and Lee's teachings. At least they hold onto a more mystical interpretation of the Scripture than Catholic and Protestant. But they do have many outward rituals as well, which seems contradictory, but I think they ascribe some sort of mysticism to the outward things as well.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The EOC are focused on the indwelling Christ and the inner life I believe and in that way they are very similar to Nee and Lee's teachings. At least they hold onto a more mystical interpretation of the Scripture than Catholic and Protestant. But they do have many outward rituals as well, which seems contradictory, but I think they ascribe some sort of mysticism to the outward things as well.

Really!? I never would have thought that. So you say they lean more toward the "Christian mystical" (which usually means a focus on the indwelling Christ)? I always thought they were just sort of the eastern version of the Roman Catholics . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The EOC are focused on the indwelling Christ and the inner life I believe and in that way they are very similar to Nee and Lee's teachings. At least they hold onto a more mystical interpretation of the Scripture than Catholic and Protestant. But they do have many outward rituals as well, which seems contradictory, but I think they ascribe some sort of mysticism to the outward things as well.

The EOC has wrongly followed the Mosaic pattern of types, shadows, and figures. For example, the clothing of priests in Judaism is highly significant, down to the color, material, and weave of each piece. The same is true of the EOC, and its Ukrainian, Russian, Serbian, and Greek branches, etc.

The New Testament will have none of this. Whether a N.T. minister wears floor length robes, a custom Italian Ermenegildo Zegna, or faded Levi jeans means nothing at all. Not one single N.T. verse supports the use of symbolic clothing. These are all traditions which have becoming binding ordinances, none of which finds support in the New Covenant. The Mosaic pattern of types, shadows, and figures all pointed to Christ and were fulfilled by Him.

Why? Because Christ has come! He has fulfilled the Law! The days of "mystical interpretation" of Christian services should not exist. They ended with His incarnation. We now speak and teach and testify and worship in plain words about the reality, who is Christ our Lord.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Mr. E. Why do you think Hank Hanegraaff turned to the Orthodox Church instead of The Local Church of Witness Lee?..

It sounds like a cry for help to me. He saw the outward traditions as more attractive I would say. The local churches were probably not old fashioned enough and he never experienced turning to his spirit for himself. He has joined many other Christians who are going through a process called re-traditionalization, of leaving modern churches for old ones. Personally I think they are searching for God and expect to find Him in a liturgical experience. If he knew what it meant to touch his spirit and worship God in spirit and truth, then he would not need to search for these traditional experiences.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It sounds like a cry for help to me. He saw the outward traditions as more attractive I would say. The local churches were probably not old fashioned enough and he never experienced turning to his spirit for himself. He has joined many other Christians who are going through a process called re-traditionalization, of leaving modern churches for old ones. Personally I think they are searching for God and expect to find Him in a liturgical experience. If he knew what it meant to touch his spirit and worship God in spirit and truth, then he would not need to search for these traditional experiences.

Sorry, but you're not the so-called "Lord's Recovery". You've never recovered anything except copy-cat.

Witness Lee was a heretic.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Sorry, but you're not the so-called "Lord's Recovery". You've never recovered anything except copy-cat.

There was a parallel movement in the US at the same time as the Recovery Movement among the Plymouth Brethren in England, and subsequently with Nee in China, and Lee in the US.

It was called the Restoration Movement and resulted in the Churches of Christ. There are many similarities. Both have long made claims of superiority as to the rest of the body of Christ, both judging the failures of the whole, and exalting themselves as uniquely superior. We could say the same of the Reformation Movement.

Yes indeed many traditions were shed and hearts returned again to His word and to Him as their first love. No doubt every one of these were a move of the Spirit of God. Yet over time all have merely created new traditions, settled into the old ways, and once again became puffed up by their achievements. This pattern usually only takes one generation, and future generations merely cling to their unique teachings and uplift their founder as special in the body.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There was a parallel movement in the US at the same time as the Recovery Movement among the Plymouth Brethren in England, and subsequently with Nee in China, and Lee in the US.

It was called the Restoration Movement and resulted in the Churches of Christ. There are many similarities. Both have long made claims of superiority as to the rest of the body of Christ, both judging the failures of the whole, and exalting themselves as uniquely superior. We could say the same of the Reformation Movement.

Yes indeed many traditions were shed and hearts returned again to His word and to Him as their first love. No doubt every one of these were a move of the Spirit of God. Yet over time all have merely created new traditions, settled into the old ways, and once again became puffed up by their achievements. This pattern usually only takes one generation, and future generations merely cling to their unique teachings and uplift their founder as special in the body.

The Restoration Movement came out of the 2nd Great Awakening in the early 1800s. A couple other groups came out besides the "Church of Christ," but they are the biggest by far.

And what you said (bolded above) I think is very true! In reading church history, that is what seems to happen. Basically, unless we humans are having a fresh experience and seeing of Christ, we will just resort to forms and symbols - and especially the next gen. It could be argued that the so called "Pilgrim Church" (I prefer "Primitive Church" so as to avoid confusion), as expounded on by Broadbent in his excellent account of the same name, had a superior longevity than all the formalized groups. These ones (called by various names - or no names - over 1500+ years) focused on Christ and His word. Period.

And we're getting to see what happens when the focus is not on Christ and His word firsthand in the LC!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Mr. E. Why do you think Hank Hanegraaff turned to the Orthodox Church instead of The Local Church of Witness Lee?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It sounds like a cry for help to me. He saw the outward traditions as more attractive I would say. The local churches were probably not old fashioned enough and he never experienced turning to his spirit for himself....If he knew what it meant to touch his spirit and worship God in spirit and truth, then he would not need to search for these traditional experiences.

Outward traditions? Almost nobody has more outward traditions than the Local Church of Witness Lee. - 7 feasts, trainings, conferences, prophesying meetings, morning watch, Calling on the Lord, Pray Reading....the list goes on! "Old fashioned" you say? Heck, the Local Church is not much behind the Amish in the old fashioned category. I mean, the colorless garb that they make the FTTer's wear makes some of the Mormons look kinda hip Seriously, we've just recently heard from someone that says that one of the big reasons they are not going to attend the FTT is because of the drab uniform.

So Hank was among you guys for 6 long years and didn't know how to touch his spirit? Really? This sounds more like a problem with the teachers more than the student. Well maybe if Hanegraaff had spent more time learning the Local Church lingo and traditions instead writing amicus briefs and publishing driveling, pathetic retractions, he would be standing, pumping his first and calling "OOOOOHHHH, LLLOOOOORRRRRD, JEEEEEESUS as I write this post.
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[Evangelical]

So they are not going to the FTT because they care too much about their appearance . That says more about them than the training doesn't it?

[awareness]

CRI can't claim to be against Christian cults any longer, if Hank is their example.

First they said that Lee's local church was a cult. Then they said they were wrong. Then Hank joins another cult.

CRI is now actually cult friendly.

[Evangelical]

As much as people would like to think that Hank chose the EOC to "get away from" the local churches, that is probably not the case. He chose the EOC because of Watchman Nee's teachings and a desire to be made God. For this reason a better question to ask is why did he not stay in evangelicalism? (because they don't teach about becoming God).

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

(because they don't teach about becoming God).

Wow, I think theosis has became one of the tenets of the Christian Faith.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As much as people would like to think that Hank chose the EOC to "get away from" the local churches, that is probably not the case. He chose the EOC because of Watchman Nee's teachings and a desire to be made God. For this reason a better question to ask is why did he not stay in evangelicalism? (because they don't teach about becoming God).

Oh! So Hank thinks the EO is better at theosis than the local church. And when has Hank not been wrong?