The Asian Mind/The Western Mind

[Ohio]

Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC.

In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is.

And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC.

In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is.

And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours.

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But I want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But I want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

I agree we all have warts, me too. Big ones. And we love all the saints with warts.

But if we have a Publisher/Ministry that is causing a "wart pandemic" then it behooves us to check it out, don't you think?

[aron]

-6

Drake,

So according to the "Shape" definition in post #147 is we are all believers, so all local churches that contain believers are exactly identical in "shape", whether or not "they take the 'local ground'"? Whether or not they read HWMR on Sunday morning? Okay, guess I totally missed that. So Lee is saying that all believers everywhere have the exact same shape, form and purpose? Irrespective of their "affiliation" with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? Well, I feel dull, and confess I totally missed that. I thought it was a prescription for outward conformity. He's saying we all already have perfect heavenly "conformity" regardless of present earthly appearances?

Good - part one is resolved. Mea culpa. Now what about part two: not having any individual distinctiveness? I don't know how any "normal" person could interpret that except what it seems to be saying, which is what I thought the first part was saying, that everyone has to be "exactly identical" outwardly in appearance, in expression, etc. Which is, for lack of a better term, "crazytown". Unless you can show us what he really meant?

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there. If you'd bother to read it, you'd see that I'm not the only one who's noticed these things. In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Here was a response to my initial post on that thread:

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Good observation, Aron.

I'm neither Western nor Asian but I live in a Chinese community. I like these people. Though I believe I'll be always an outsider for them. Anyway, in three words, I'd describe the Chinese mentality as:

1) Subordination;
2) Collectiveness;
3) “Us” versus “Them” mentality. (Well, that is slightly more than one word )

Generally, the Chinese are also lack of creativity and tend to imitate or copy someone else's models and patterns.

BTW, can you guess whose quote is this: "The individual is subordinate to the organisation. The minority is subordinate to the majority. The lower level is subordinate to the higher level"...

That was Mao Tse-tung's quote but it pretty much sums up the LC's value system.

There are about 350 comments on the thread. Here is another one.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been tooting this horn about the dichotomy between Eastern and Western cultures being at the root of the problems in the Recovery for years. Waking up to the realization that I had grown up in, and given my life to propagate, an incognito Chinese church was deeply disturbing, but the conviction only gets clearer as the years go by.

I stumbled in here today by chance. Wasn't even aware this forum existed. Reading this thread almost gave me goosebumps, to finally hear some traction for this understanding. In a discussion that I didn't personally initiate, no less. Actually, most of what I've had are monologues, not discussions. Nice to see that someone else can connect the dots.

Once you see this dichotomy clearly, I believe you'll recognize that nearly every gripe from disgruntled ex-members or frustrated current members has its roots in Asian cultural values that got institutionalized so deeply into the practices of the Local Churches that they create an atmosphere of expectations so rigid they are just as effective at enforcing conformity as posting a bouncer at the door, or a requiring a profession of doctrinal faith that one must sign in order to be fully received into the circle of fellowship. Some of the Asian cultural elements relate to standards of conduct that are pushed as if essential to the Christian life. Others elements are Eastern cultural values that make their way into doctrinal stances on minor truths, and then get stressed like major ones. The manifestations are numerous, but the root is the same. We (they) failed to distinguish between Lee's culture and his portion of Christ.

On the one hand, I believe this is the glaringly obvious "elephant in the room" that even the current leaders in the Recovery acknowledge has been wreaking havoc and hemorrhaging the life-blood of what, by all rights, should be a thriving organism. Whether they see the elephant for what it truly is or not is not for me to say, but I've been encouraged just to hear they acknowledge the problems it causes for them. And that encouragement is not rooted in cynicism toward them.

On the other hand, though, there is a reason why so many members can't see the elephant, and why the leaders (in my view) should be given some slack for failing to evict it. I bumped into it daily, got trampled by it with bothersome frequency, and wrestled with it on and off for over a decade before all the loose threads of my chronic frustrations got tied together by the common thread of Asian culture, at which point the resultant tapestry finally came together. It was a relief in the small sense that the puzzle finally got solved and yielded a coherent picture. But it was devastating at the same time -- my faith got rocked and my Christian life got shipwrecked by the disappointment. Blindness is not always willful, and the more painful the picture, the more innate subconscious defense mechanisms there are to prevent you from seeing it.

Plus, it's a complex picture, not a simple line-drawing. I blame no one for not being able to connect the dots without help. It took me about 30 pages even just to put my thoughts on the topic together when a brother asked me to connect the dots for him by giving detailed explanations rather than generalizations. It's like walking someone through calculus, when you can jump 5 steps at a time, but they need each little one spelled out for them separately in order to see the connections at first. I'll probably share pieces of that effort here as the discussion progresses, but I'm leery of becoming one more disgruntled bozo with an angry manifesto. (Sorry if that that offends anyone here; I trust most of you here, like me, have been there for a time, even if you've moved past that phase.)

For the record: I have no interest in WL, LC, or BB bashing. I bless the Lord for the privilege of growing up and giving my best years whole-heartedly to be receive what these people gained of Christ, and serve together with them. Some of you here, I feel, have some issues with bitterness that you would do well to seek help dealing with. God forbid that He eventually has to judge you with the same strictness and enthusiasm with which some of you here are casting stones. I have no interest in participating in that or providing ammunition for those who are just looking for rocks to throw rather than to build something with.

If there have been moral or ethical wrongdoings that set some of you off, I can't speak to that, as I never noticed such things in greater frequency or severity than are common to any institution, sacred or secular. I'm just talking about the personal offenses and reactionary cynicism that rise up when a person finds out they don't fit in to something they had hoped to be a part of at some point. I still struggle with disappointment that there seems to be no place for me among what those dear folks are doing. But I'm dealing with it, and staying positive is part of how that is best done.

So if you don't want to "connect the dots" that's fine. But don't play so insulted when others do.

BTW, there are LOTS of problems of the "everything goes" freedom-first individualistic Western mind. The Chinese (and Koreans and Japanese and Indians &c) have a lot to show us. God created them, too.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there.

Sorry aron, I was thinking of this thread but I couldn't find it. Thanks for digging this one up and I have merged the two threads.

In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Excellent point! I just recently pointed out how Hanegraaff et all called the Local Church "a Chinese interpretation of Christianity" (paraphrase) If this had been said by any of us "opposers" or "bitter ex members" the Local Church minions would have gone ballistic. Thanks, aron, for pointing out the glaring hypocrisy.
-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

-6

Drake,

So according to the "Shape" definition in post #147 is we are all believers, so all local churches that contain believers are exactly identical in "shape", whether or not "they take the 'local ground'"? Whether or not they read HWMR on Sunday morning? Okay, guess I totally missed that. So Lee is saying that all believers everywhere have the exact same shape, form and purpose? Irrespective of their "affiliation" with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? Well, I feel dull, and confess I totally missed that. I thought it was a prescription for outward conformity. He's saying we all already have perfect heavenly "conformity" regardless of present earthly appearances?

Good - part one is resolved. Mea culpa. Now what about part two: not having any individual distinctiveness? I don't know how any "normal" person could interpret that except what it seems to be saying, which is what I thought the first part was saying, that everyone has to be "exactly identical" outwardly in appearance, in expression, etc. Which is, for lack of a better term, "crazytown". Unless you can show us what he really meant?

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there. If you'd bother to read it, you'd see that I'm not the only one who's noticed these things. In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Here was a response to my initial post on that thread:



There are about 350 comments on the thread. Here is another one.



So if you don't want to "connect the dots" that's fine. But don't play so insulted when others do.

BTW, there are LOTS of problems of the "everything goes" freedom-first individualistic Western mind. The Chinese (and Koreans and Japanese and Indians &c) have a lot to show us. God created them, too.

aron,

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating the footnote you referenced, that you didn't actually read) is missed on you? Had you not used it in a failed attempt to substantiate your narrative there would be no discussion about it... just an anecdotal exchange between you and I who have different experiences in life. You would have your view of things and I would have mine. But you didn't.... you did what many people who want to take Witness Lee and his followers down... you twisted what the man actually said to create a straw man of your own creation so you could set it afire to roars of approval from the usual crowd.

But look, your personal views do not matter to me at all. I'm happy for you.... you have something to jump out of bed for everyday... maybe a sense of purpose in life. The sense of pride that is found with crusaders of justice. Who knows?

But, this is an important topic... please provide a direct quote from Witness Lee himself to substantiate your assertion.... let's have a look.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating the footnote you referenced, that you didn't actually read) is missed on you? Had you not used it a a failed attempt to substantiate your narrative there would be no discussion about it... just an anecdotal exchange between you and I who have different experiences in life. You would have your view of things and I would have mine. But you didn't.... you did what many people who want to take Witness Lee and his followers down... you twisted what the man actually said to create a straw man of your own creation so you could set it afire to roars of approval from the usual crowd.

There's no crowd here like there was at Whistler, that Kangaroo Court that unleashed LSM's legal thugs on the Midwest LC's. And it was you and Witness Lee who took down all those men of God like John Ingalls who cried out for justice on behalf of the sisters molested by Philip Lee at the LSM offices.

Drake, you have a serious problem with paranoia and the facts of history at LSM. Please don't project them onto aron.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree we all have warts, me too. Big ones. And we love all the saints with warts.

But if we have a Publisher/Ministry that is causing a "wart pandemic" then it behooves us to check it out, don't you think?

And that's what I intend to do, the Lord willing!

As said before, what you describe is generally what I saw during my last visit. But also, I don't just want to be with the LC saints to judge them, but rather to experience Christ with them, just as I would those in other Christian groups. The Anointing will show and speak to me as He wills.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

Have a safe trip and an enjoyable time.

This whole criticism of the HWMR is a tempest in a teapot.. way overblown. I grew up reading weekly lessons in the Baptist Church. I taught weekly lessons from the Assembly of God publications.

When I came into the Lords recovery over four decades ago there was no HWMR. Mostly, it was one man speaking a message and the testimonies afterward often bore very little resemblance to the message just spoken. I enjoyed those testimonies but they were scattered on many topics and often they were time consuming sea stories. The consideration at the time was to bring all the members of the Body into their function in the local church meetings so the format had to change from one-to-many (one five talented functioning) to many-to-many (functioning one talented ones)... of course that precipitated objections from those who were used to giving messages... but I digress. However, though more had something and more time was available for that, the prophesying meeting still lacked focus and some interpreted the vacuum created when the one man stopped speaking as an invitation to fill that gap. Also, not every member had a practical way to create a prophesy that would edify the members. We were transitioning from an older unscriptural model to the 1 Corinthians 14 model of each one has. Not every member knew how to function and the objective was to help every member to fulfill their God given priestly function. The HWMR addressed those needs and having lived before, during the transition and after I can testify that it brought much needed edification to those meetings.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating

Thanks
Drake

I'm sure you were outraged when you found out the lies behind the FPR, weren't you? Righteous indignation boiled over I'm sure.

Witness Lee made a long career out of misappropriating and mis-representing so get off your high horse. And I didn't charge you any money, either. If "exactly identical" is a heavenly abode of celestial "lampstands", not the actual physical churches on the ground (thus we can ignore the words "shape" which would otherwise have no practical meaning), you still haven't explained how there can be no individual distinction between the churches?

You quoted the footnote and I copied it. What does, Not having any individual distinctiveness mean? Something in heaven? Or on earth? It is not self-evident, unless it means what I think it means, which is Witness Lee was telling the churches to get in line and be quiet. If it means something else you should say it instead of hiding behind a barrage of bluster. Just say it. What does it mean? It is the words from Witness Lee. Revelation 1:20 Footnote whatever.

Here are the Great Man's actual words:

"but positively, in their nature, shape, and purpose, they are absolutely identical and are connected to one another". So Laodicea and Ephesus were connected. As were the Baptist and the RCC and all the other "churches of history". Right? The connection, being heavenly, transcends space and time and culture. Good.

Now, "absolutely identical" in "nature, shape, and purpose". So this means, again, the Baptist and RCC and EOC and all other groups are absolutely identical in confession and faith and hope. Like you and I are absolutely identical, being both created in the image of our Maker.

Okay, I get part one.

Now what about part two. Again let's focus on the Great Man's words and not get distracted by rock pigeons or ukuleles.

"They not only are shining locally but also are bearing universally the same testimony both to the localities and to the universe. They are of the same nature and in the same shape. They bear the same lamp for the same purpose and are fully identified with one another, not having any individual distinctiveness. "

"No individual distinctiveness" - what does this mean, please? I get the "bearing universally" part as in Part One. The Baptists and RCC and EOC and Presbyterians all bear universally the same nature, shape, purpose, the same light, the same glory, the same hope. All of them are exactly the same. Amazing footnote, really I like it a lot. Again MEA CULPA if I misunderstood it.

But what of "Not having any individual distinctiveness"? What does that mean? I don't want to misunderstand. It LOOKS LIKE Witness Lee was telling everybody to be the same in expression. In heaven I see distinctiveness. Like I said, star differs from star in glory. No problem. So the quote "The differences among the seven churches recorded in chs. 2 and 3 are all of a negative nature," makes no sense. Because you already said that there is no difference! Everyone is exactly the same! Same shape! Same nature! Same purpose! Suddenly we talk of differences....

So this is why they go to FTT? To understand footnotes? Because the footnotes contradict. First they say we are EXACTLY THE SAME with no differences and then there are differences. And clearly there are individual distinctivenesses in heaven. The seven stars which are the seven angels to the seven churches - how do you know they are exactly identical? You don't. The twelve gates? The fruit bearing each month from the tree of life? Do you think that each fruit tastes exactly the same, with no individual distinctiveness? No?

So there is some 'mystical' meaning to the words which we assume Lee had, and we are to soak in them and become divine in life and nature? But don't bother trying to understand it? Because you are not helping. The only way to "get" the footnote is to repeat it, "shape, amen, shape" and don't think about what the words mean. Otherwise, it looks to me like Lee is trying to make everyone exactly the same. Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books. (Only we had Rainbow Booklets). No you say, it is a heavenly view. But you don't explain it. You just bluster and act upset.

So explain it. Explain what these words mean. "No individual distinctiveness". Either in heaven or on earth. It LOOKS LIKE Lee was trying to control and manipulate the believers. What was he really doing?

"No individual distinctiveness" What does it mean? I literally have never heard of such a thing. The universe is full of distinctiveness. Where is this place of Full Sameness? The Full Time Training? Is that the Gate of Heaven? Everyone dress the same? Because the Footnote 1:20 from the RecV and what I remember from the LC resonate. The Individual is Gone and you are now in the Hive. And one day you realize this is not heaven but the Witness Lee Duplication Factory. Everybody is Exactly the Same. No Individual Distinctiveness.

I figured it was Chinese culture. Fallen humanity trying to reach God. You say it's not. Well then what is it? Please explain.

It sure LOOKS to me like bricks and slime building the tower of Babel all over again, but you say it's not, it's "intrinsically" something or other. "Universally divine" or something but the words make no sense. Maybe the FTT can help. Like they say, "You have to see the vision." They probably say something like that in the college meetings: "Don't try to understand. Just go to the FTT".

[Drake]

-1

aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books."

.....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy.



Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument.

Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms)
Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books."

.....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy.



Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument.

Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms)
Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument.

Drake

So predictable, as you said "right on schedule."

Once again Drake is found hiding under the rug of some supposed "Logical Fallacy."

[aron]

-2

Drake ok.

Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no.

I see, star differs from star in glory but the footnote says no.

You feign outrage but where is the competing vision? It took poster named "Trapped" to rescue you from part one, the "exactly identical" part in "shape". I don't ever remember hearing that a church had a shape. What was I supposed to see?

But hooray for "Trapped" who explained it nicely. Then I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Drake ok.

Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no. . . I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers.

I recently noticed Paul writing to the Romans and telling them of the "gentile churches". "They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them."

So I see distinctiveness. There are churches of the gentiles. They are not "exactly identical" in outward appearance, or "shape" in any way I would understand the word. Maybe in heaven they are "one" in Christ, and to some degree should express this on earth (and Paul sought in his ministry to do just this, for example not his continued references to the "offerings of the gentiles" for the poor in Jerusalem).

But I don't see anyone trying to eliminate "individual distinctiveness" the way Lee apparently was in his footnote (Drake still has nor explained what Lee really meant, so I have to go by what it looks like). In fact when some came from James to apparently "eliminate the distinctiveness" of the Antiochian gentiles Paul resisted, loudly. (See Gal 2).

THE HIDDEN HISTORY THE LOCAL CHURCH OF WITNESS LEE IN AMERICA
1. An official Letter of Dissociation signed by 21 Local Church leaders in Europe dissociating themselves from the LSM because: "It has come to our attention recently through several witnesses that gross immorality and some other sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5:11 have been committed by your son Philip Lee (who is identified as your Ministry Office) on more than one occasion over a long period of time. This deeply disturbs us. It grieves us even more that you and some of your close coworkers were aware of the situation and yet not only tolerated it but covered it up."
2. The testimony of John So who also wrote "I Myself Also Am A Man" to refute the heresy of man becoming God.
3. A letter by Bill Mallon to Witness Lee explaining how the LSM abused the Local Churches in the Southeast U.S. where he was once a coworker. The author of the site also does a comparison of what Lee said Bill wrote to him and what Bill actually did write to him.
4. Exerpts from a book by John Ingalls, another fomrer coworker who knew Witness Lee, the LSM, etc. intimately. His book is tilted "Speaking the Truth in Love" and explains what happened in the Local Churches and LSM during the late 80's and early 90's.
5. Refers to an 11 page letter by Ken Unger's wife. Ken Unger was a leader in Huntington Beach and his wife worked in the LSM and knew how it operated. When she and Ken tried to read this well prepared letter to Witness Lee he cut her off and would not let her finish.
6. Rosemead division details exposing the very adverse effect the LSM at on that congregation and other ridiculous teachings and practices from the LSM such as:
a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues."
b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead."
c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right."
d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters."
The leader sent there by Witness Lee i.e. Francis Ball, under the direction of LSM, did such things as lock the meeting place to force the congregation to go to LSM meetings in Anaheim instead of their own, etc.
7. Raleigh leaders visit to Witness Lee. These leaders prepared a 71 page work titled: "Concerns Regarding our Practice Regarding Truth and Life" which Witness Lee promised to review with them. But when they went to talk with him they testified Brother Lee had no ear to hear them. It was as if they were talking to a wall.
8. OKC Couple. Refers to a couple in the Local Church in OKC who divorced against the wife's wishes. The wife was shunned by the Local Church there because she said it was becoming a cult. The leaders were not against the husband divorcing his wife and the wife was never allowed to enter their meeting hall again. When she tried the leaders told her to get off their property or they would call the police.
9. Witness Lee's Sons: A long 44 page e-mail dialogue with a former Local Church leader and the author of the Hiding History site detailing the behind the scences corrupt financial and ual adventures of Witness Lee's sons and the LSM against the members of the Local Churches and how Witness Lee knowingly covered it up and even engaged in some of the corrupt financial dealings himself.
Again, this is not an exhaustive list of contents but it should give the reader of this posting the general idea of the sort of things that go on in the Local Church and LSM and why many many believers left and still leave when they find out what really goes on underneath the shiny "spiritual" veneer and bullying legal tactics.

Note Point 6, a-d for quotes which indicate what happens when one culture begins to dominate.

Below another quote from an observer of the change to ministry control and the "flavor" and "atmosphere" that it brought.

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger

looking back I realize that Lee's methodology was like that of one incensed with control - he had to be the MANAGER (because he "had the gray hair") of everything and dictate to all. Some day he will have to face the Almighty for the damage he did to so many young people who were hurt by his actions and his subtle manners. In sum: He was a Chinese War Lord and practiced it with amazing cunning.

I gradually began to see what W.L. stood for and later on realized that his "doctrine of control" was exceedingly cruel and nefarious - he and Joe Stalin would have had much in common!

He could never give up anything to the Lord--he insisted on controlling all the churches, the workers and the elders--his model was that of the Antioch Church (so he claimed and so did Watchman Nee claim as well in Further Talks on the Church Life). In his last meeting with Doug Shearer and me he took out a copy of this text and read the following:

"I seems that Antioch was controlling them."

Then we asked Witness Lee: Was Watchman Nee referring to Antioch's "controlling them" - the antecedent of "them" - does it refer to the churches, the workers or the elders? Lee replied: ALL of them! At that point I looked at Doug Shearer and said: I think it's time for us to leave.

Lee had expressed the most totalitarian concept in Church control--more so than that of Pope Benedict's recent declarations that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church and that all others are "deficient" and/or "lesser" and even eluded to the fact that salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church is NOT an option, not viable--Lee, in essence, declared that the L.C. was virtually the only expression outside of Babylon. This arrogant, preposterous, exclusive, demeaning and pompous attitude and even belief system, is so outrageous and defining of a state of super spirituality that the only thing that one can conclude is a spiritual pride far and beyond anything uttered by modern man, aside from overt cults who acclaim the same but, even then, provide variety of expression--unlike the L.C. wherein all things must mimic the (as it is expressed now) the Living Stream Ministry--even the Methodists have not this conformity!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger SEE HERE: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...7373#post77373
looking back I realize that Lee's methodology was like that of one incensed with control - he had to be the MANAGER (because he "had the gray hair") of everything and dictate to all. Some day he will have to face the Almighty for the damage he did to so many young people who were hurt by his actions and his subtle manners. In sum: He was a Chinese War Lord and practiced it with amazing cunning.

Aron - Thanks much for posting that quote from Doug Krieger! I was able to go to that thread from 2015 (which you started) and read about what he said concerning Berkeley in 1974! This filled in some details about why Doug et. al., were expelled from there, which I've been wondering about for over 40 years!

(On that thread I asked if there has been any updates regarding Doug Krieger since it was posted in 2015.)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Note Point 6, a-d for quotes which indicate what happens when one culture begins to dominate..

Aron,

Please provide a reference for 6 a-d.

Thx
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Once again Drake is found hiding under the rug of some supposed "Logical Fallacy."

Well I set him up and you set me up. You were the one who told us what you saw in the FTTT. How Lee beamed over the crowd dressed identically! Finally we were all "one"!

I saw a cultural component in this enforced homogeneity. Now, other groups practice similar acculturation techniques, but how many Exclusive Brethren are there two centuries on? Compared to how the Nee/Lee group took off and even metastised among the Chinese. So I say there's a cultural connection. Centuries of culture have 'primed' them for this group. Contrast to the west, where individualism is ingrained in our psyche. Harder to find the Hive Mind.

Some westerners do but it's not nearly as pronounced.

[aron]

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see.

A poll?

It’s irrelevant especially in a one sided forum like this one.

Hate the break the news to you Aron. That is called “ Argumentum ad populum “

“In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, vox populi,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans").“


Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

I don't believe I heard those specific things. But I stayed in Ohio in the 80s - didn't go to trainings then - when all that stuff was supposedly going on. According to what I'm hearing, Ohio was more insulated from this stuff than other places at that time. (I guess that's one of the things that got them in trouble . . .)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Well I set him up and you set me up. You were the one who told us what you saw in the FTTT. How Lee beamed over the crowd dressed identically! Finally we were all "one"!

It was the Training in Taipei May 1987, the place was that big auditorium in Hall#1. Our uniform was blue slacks for guys and blue skirts for the ladies. All of us wore white shirts and LSM ties, and blue jackets with LSM logos. WL loved it -- the sea of blue! He would even get upset if a seat was empty.

When the training first started, at our first get together for the elders and responsible ones at Hall#3, an orientation session, one brother DP of Florida mistakenly wore a "secular" tie. AY just reamed him out, up and down, left and right, front and back, all for our "edification." After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office.

I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

The next day I successfully overturned it on appeal.

They even went so far as to assign teenage trainees to inspect our underwear drawers. That really upset a few brothers. WL was reputed to be so godly that even his socks and ties were all in order. I would credit his wife or laundry service for that. I heard a number of horror stories from WL about co-workers who threw their socks on the table and on the lampshade. Egads!

I regularly heard about those "Witness Lee Duplication Centers" and "Witness Lee Tape Recorders." I never heard that in my LC or in Cleveland. Only when traveling to Anaheim or other LSM venues did I hear about that crazy stuff.

Were you there for that, "Let's Go, Lin Ko!"?

I KNOW that our friend DRAKE was there for that!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was the Training in Taipei May 1987, the place was that big auditorium in Hall#1. Our uniform was blue slacks for guys and blue skirts for the ladies. All of us wore white shirts and LSM ties, and blue jackets with LSM logos. WL loved it -- the sea of blue! He would even get upset if a seat was empty.

When the training first started, at our first get together for the elders and responsible ones at Hall#3, an orientation session, one brother DP of Florida mistakenly wore a "secular" tie. AY just reamed him out, up and down, left and right, front and back, all for our "edification." After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office.

I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

The next day I successfully overturned it on appeal.

They even went so far as to assign teenage trainees to inspect our underwear drawers. That really upset a few brothers. WL was reputed to be so godly that even his socks and ties were all in order. I would credit his wife or laundry service for that. I heard a number of horror stories from WL about co-workers who threw their socks on the table and on the lampshade. Egads!

I regularly heard about those "Witness Lee Duplication Centers" and "Witness Lee Tape Recorders." I never heard that in my LC or in Cleveland. Only when traveling to Anaheim or other LSM venues did I hear about that crazy stuff.

Were you there for that, "Let's Go, Lin Ko!"?

I KNOW that our friend DRAKE was there for that!

Wow! This is stuff that should be in a movie as it sounds downright entertaining! If what you say is really true (and I have little reason to doubt what you say), then PRAISE THE LORD that He got my family the heck out of Dodge before all that nonsense found it's way to us! Thank you Jesus!!!

It's hard to imagine how we let ourselves get lead like that . . .

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office. I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

This still happens in the FTTA (at least in the last 7-8 years). Trainees can literally receive a citation letter essentially questioning their heart for/consecration to the Lord due to a minor (and I mean minor) dress code violation.

Talk about heavy-handed.

Many trainees, both from decades ago and to this day, are also fully aware that red is an especially egregious color to be caught with on their person.