LSM/Blended Brothers Take Over of Mansfield

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You sound like the culprit, and a historical revisionist, who ordered changing the locks on the meeting hall in Mansfield leaving even the elderly folks out in the cold. Plenty of material there to talk about loyalists, invaders, deception, and stealing others property and liberty.

Pathetic.

Drake

How dare you sit on your high horse meting out condemnations on "poor, poor, degraded, divided Christianity, when you are complicit with far worse crimes.

Then you attempt to mock me for pointing out your hypocrisy. You and your people laid waste two LC's in Ohio -- Columbus and Mansfield -- and you think a few more accusations and brevity are called for.

Have you no shame?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How dare you sit on your high horse meting out condemnations on "poor, poor, degraded, divided Christianity, when you are complicit with far worse crimes.

Then you attempt to mock me for pointing out your hypocrisy. You and your people laid waste two LC's in Ohio -- Columbus and Mansfield -- and you think a few more accusations and brevity are called for.

Have you no shame?

Oh my goodness. Such chest thumping and bully antics! No doubt we are onto something here. Hmmmm.... That suggests perhaps we should drill down on this oft repeated rhetoric of yours about Mansfield. Get the truth out instead of giving you free reign to revise history about what really happened.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh my goodness. Such chest thumping and bully antics! No doubt we are onto something here. Hmmmm.... That suggests perhaps we should drill down on this oft repeated rhetoric of yours about Mansfield. Get the truth out instead of giving you free reign to revise history about what really happened.

Mansfield was the first LC in Ohio, always a collection of precious older saints -- unable to stand against the experienced and well-funded legal team of LSM called the "Defense and Confirmation Project."

What your buddies from Anaheim did to them was pathetic. You gathered up a bunch of ex-members, offered them incentives, and pitted them against those faithful ones who had no heart of fight their brothers and sisters.

Take away the love of God -- introduce dogmatic legalism -- and what do we have? Your buddies at LSM/DCP.

[Drake]

Here is what actually happened your revisionist version notwithstanding.

The takeover of Mansfield by 4 newly appointed elders, without consultation of the church in Mansfield, by Titus Chu in 2006 is a sad chapter in that local church history. In a failed attempt to snatch the property the newly appointed elders from Titus changed the meeting hall locks forcing elderly saints to stand out in the cold on several consecutive Lord”s days. There were ugly and mean spirited bullying tactics and open confrontations in meetings by those who tried to take the meeting hall by force. Furthermore, they demanded obedience as they declared themselves “ the authority” to whom obedience was due. Fortunately, Mansfield saints who had devoted their lives and livelihoods to the church life there prevailed by God’s mercy, faithful saints, and eventually the courts.

Ohio often cites Mansfield as a poster child example of mean old LSM controlling churches. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Fact is, the people who attempted to control were sent from Titus on and for his behalf. This is documented history in spite of the spin Ohio tries to put on it.

Drake

[Ohio]

After the death of beloved brother Dwight Rader, other brothers were appointed to the eldership by TC. (Isn't that the LC way taught by Lee himself?) Besides that fact, nothing else Drake posts is trustworthy.

For those interested, posters Suannehill and Norm live in Mansfield, and their posts are trustworthy.

This thread "The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada"
also has info from several years ago.

Info on Dwight's passing and Mansfield starts around post #73.

[leastofthese]

I don’t have any first hand knowledge of what happened in Mansfield, we’re you a part of this?. Where is your evidence Drake? And how did Chu force these these poor elderly folks to stand outside in the cold?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Here is what actually happened your revisionist version notwithstanding.

The takeover of Mansfield by 4 newly appointed elders, without consultation of the church in Mansfield, by Titus Chu in 2006 is a sad chapter in that local church history. In a failed attempt to snatch the property the newly appointed elders from Titus changed the meeting hall locks forcing elderly saints to stand out in the cold on several consecutive Lord”s days. There were ugly and mean spirited bullying tactics and open confrontations in meetings by those who tried to take the meeting hall by force. Furthermore, they demanded obedience as they declared themselves “ the authority” to whom obedience was due. Fortunately, Mansfield saints who had devoted their lives and livelihoods to the church life there prevailed by God’s mercy, faithful saints, and eventually the courts.

Ohio often cites Mansfield as a poster child example of mean old LSM controlling churches. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Fact is, the people who attempted to control were sent from Titus on and for his behalf. This is documented history in spite of the spin Ohio tries to put on it.

Drake

So brother Drake, your version doesn't doubt that a power struggle actually ensued. Christendom has a long history of those. We shouldn't be proud of them, neither side of it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think you are most vigorously objecting to the word, "crime" right? I will admit that this may not be the most appropriate word. ByHisMercy, I'm guessing, is using that in a way to illustrate and emphasize how strongly they see the things which happened to them. "Crime" may be a bit inflammatory, but it is conveying a strong emotion.

Am I right ByHisMercy?

BTW - I found the Nee booklet after some searching.

Well, not just the characterization of so-called crime. Rather, this whole erroneous thought about what we think Gods love is toward ourselves and other Christians. At best it is a big misunderstanding and at worst it is a slanderous accusation.

Look, I agree with everything In that booklet. If you disagree with something then that is fair game to debate.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After the death of beloved brother Dwight Rader, other brothers were appointed to the eldership by TC. (Isn't that the LC way taught by Lee himself?) Besides that fact, nothing else Drake posts is trustworthy.

For those interested, posters Suannehill and Norm live in Mansfield, and their posts are trustworthy.

This thread "The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada"
also has info from several years ago.

Info on Dwight's passing and Mansfield starts around post #73.

This post above attempts to divert from the events I have recounted as if the 4 elders appointed by Titus and thier attempts to steal the meeting hall never happened.

These events happened in Mansfield as I summarized and they are conveniently left out of the record in Ohio’s narrative because it does not suit his purpose. I suspect he knows very well they happened (and if he doesn’t know then he is not the expert in this region he purports to be) and yet he prefers to propagate the slanderous accusation that big bad LSM was the culprit and Titus and his 4 appointed elders were just helping out after Dwight’s passing.

He has for a very long time cited events in Mansfield without citing the facts.

Pathetic really.

Drake

[UntoHim]

So Drake, now that we know you're the resident expert on all things MidWest, riddle me this:

WHAT WAS THE MAIN ISSUE IN THE PROBLEMS BETWEEN THOSE BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN MANSFIELD? WAS IT POSSIBLY THE VERY SAME ISSUE BETWEEN MANY OF THE MIDWEST CANADIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS?

What's the heart of the issue my man? Let me give you a clue. It's that big, fat elephant smack dab in the middle of the room. You know, it's that ginormous pachyderm that you conveniently ignore in almost every thread ever posted in these forums for over a decade now. We see it. All the readers and lurkers see it. Even the most casual of readers see it. For sure God sees it. How bout you join the club bro?

I repeat. What was the main issue in the problems between the saints in Mansfield?
-

[awareness]

I know nothing about Mansfield, but I'm pretty sure I saw it way back in the late 70s.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Drake, now that we know you're the resident expert on all things MidWest, riddle me this:

WHAT WAS THE MAIN ISSUE IN THE PROBLEMS BETWEEN THOSE BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN MANSFIELD? WAS IT POSSIBLY THE VERY SAME ISSUE BETWEEN MANY OF THE MIDWEST CANADIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS?

What's the heart of the issue my man? Let me give you a clue. It's that big, fat elephant smack dab in the middle of the room. You know, it's that ginormous pachyderm that you conveniently ignore in almost every thread ever posted in these forums for over a decade now. We see it. All the readers and lurkers see it. Even the most casual of readers see it. For sure God sees it. How bout you join the club bro?

I repeat. What was the main issue in the problems between the saints in Mansfield?
-

The main issue, though there are many others, was not using and preaching from THWFMR booklets sold by LSM.

The only reason LSMers were successful in stealing real estate and dividing the churches in Columbus and Mansfield, though they tried in numerous other places, was that both places had the same former elder CY, who knew the business side of those churches. He was definitely not a spiritual person, could never share a coherent message, but he knew the by-laws. He was an administrator.

He was not the only elder in the region who was sour on TC. There were others. I believe the root cause had nothing to do with books or publications, but how TC would publicly berate other leaders. Elder CY had years ago lived thru the abuse which had hurt Philip Comfort, causing him to depart. Thus some Midwest leaders viewed the Blendeds as preferable to TC.

I have written repeatedly about this over the years. Drake's complaints about people locked outside of the meeting hall was minor and unfortunate, though not intentional. How ironic since during the New Way all the SoCal LC's were also locking their doors Sunday morning. There's a rule to be learned here -- if LSM is accusing you of something it is because they are guilty of the same.

Pretty pathetic, huh Drake?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

He has for a very long time cited events in Mansfield without citing the facts.

Pathetic really.

Drake

Drake could you provide the facts for us? If Ohio is making up the account, you should set the record straight. Should be easy enough, most are still alive that we’re involved (I assume). Where you there Drake?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake could you provide the facts for us? If Ohio is making up the account, you should set the record straight. Should be easy enough, most are still alive that we’re involved (I assume). Where you there Drake?

You have facts.

[Drake]

Ohio>”Drake's complaints about people locked outside of the meeting hall was minor and unfortunate, though not intentional”

5 Lords Days in a row..... locked out of their own meeting hall by Titus Chu appointed “elders”.

Not intentional. Minor. Unfortunate.

Drake

[UntoHim]

What was the main issue between the two parties Drake?
-

[awareness]

What was the main issue between the two parties Drake?
-

Yeah Drake ... I'd like to know. time to get real.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What was the main issue between the two parties Drake?
-

UntoHim ,

You are asking a rhetorical question.

Of course, you would argue that the main issue in Mansfield is the same as the point of the majority of the posts in this forum. An issue related to which ministry to follow.

However, I will call your pachyderm and raise you a family of woolly mammoths.

1. On what basis do the freshly appointed elders by Titus Chu have the right to change the locks on the doors to the meeting hall and then refuse to open them for 5 consecutive Lord Days in November and December of 2006 locking the saints out and leaving the elderly in the cold?

2. What scriptural basis dId the coworker of Titus Chu sent to establish the newly appointed elders have for establishing a policy that the saints in Mansfield must adhere to the speaking, direction, and authority of these "elders" else they could go find someplace else to meet?

3. Please explain the scriptural, spiritual, or even moral basis for establishing the right to partake of the table in Mansfield being RESERVED ONLY for those who tithed, attended prayer meetings, and followed the elders.

Such heavy handed and unscriptural teachings and practices required an intervention even by the law courts. Living Sream Ministry were right to jump into that fray. To stand idly by and with indifference would have been irresponsible. My only purpose in mentioning it is that another poster has presented a distorted view about Mansfield by not putting these facts on the table. They've been purposely concealed so let's take them out from under the rug and have a closer look. Then if readers still want to justify the actions of the newly appointed elders by Titus Chu and his coworkers then that is their prerogative.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake,

I call your family of woolly mammoths and raise you a gaggle of brontosauruses .

Of course my question is rhetorical...but it still stands as a legitimate question nonetheless. Please stop answering a question with questions.

Titus Chu. Titus Chu. Titus Chu? I know you desperately want to change the subject. But it is not Chu's name that is printed on 99% of the OFFICIAL, STRICTLY REQUIRED material to be distributed, read and fellowshiped in the Local Church. (or at it wasn't at the time frame we are discussing.) Titus Chu has never been referred to as THE One Minister with the One Ministry for The Age. Titus Chu has never, to my knowledge, ever encouraged, or much less required all the elders and workers in the churches to sign a pledge of loyalty to his own person and work. Titus has never claimed that he is the ONLY PERSON SPEAKING AS GOD'S ORACLE ON EARTH.

So you can bob and weave, shuck and jive and dodge the real issue at hand. You can talk about locked meeting hall doors and lawsuits over possession of property until the mooing cows come home....You cannot erase history at your whim or convenience. There has been major dissension, division and abject chaos in the Local Church(es) long before Titus Chu had any influence whatsoever. As with every single problem/issue among the Local Churches in the last 60+ years, it all revolves around ONE person and his ONE work...and it ain't Chu's.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

1. On what basis do the freshly appointed elders by Titus Chu have the right to change the locks on the doors to the meeting hall and then refuse to open them for 5 consecutive Lord Days in November and December of 2006 locking the saints out and leaving the elderly in the cold?

OK, Drake, let me get this straight.

Knowing that beloved brother Dwight Rader was quite sick, Titus Chu woke up one morning and decided to send another former Mansfield elder and coworker to Mansfield with specific instructions to appoint elders (kind of like how Paul sent Titus to Crete to appoint elders) who would pick the coldest day of the year to lock out all the older saints.

Then completely out of the blue, some Anaheim, CA book publishing house, out of the goodness of their heart, decided they would step in with their free legal aid services.

Sure, that makes a lot of sense!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

2. What scriptural basis dId the coworker of Titus Chu sent to establish the newly appointed elders have for establishing a policy that the saints in Mansfield must adhere to the speaking, direction, and authority of these "elders" else they could go find someplace else to meet?

Drake, conveniently leaving out the facts and the context of events? Why am I not surprised?

Show me one church in the world that would allow people to enter their meetings, disrupt the speakers, make demands on the elders, and then expect the elders to do nothing about it? Isn't that the role of elders to provide order in their church. Isn't it proper to ask unruly, disrespectful, and naughty people, incited by operatives sent by the Blendeds, to behave themselves?

And, btw, these same tactics were used in many Midwest LC's. Rom 16.17-19 instructs us to "mark such ones, turn away from them, because they serve their own appetites, and by smooth and flattering speech they deceived the hearts of the simple."

Also, why do you question the authority of these "elders," properly appointed by the apostle who helped raise the church in Mansfield up, and confirmed by former elders and co-workers (NM and DS) who once lived in Mansfield. I guess once they held their Whistler Quarantine Kangaroo Court, the Blinded Oligarchy in Anaheim deemed all elder appointments as illegitimate. Even retroactively.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

3. Please explain the scriptural, spiritual, or even moral basis for establishing the right to partake of the table in Mansfield being RESERVED ONLY for those who tithed, attended prayer meetings, and followed the elders.

LSMers apparently found people off the streets, who had not been to meetings for years, provided them with incentives, and sent them to the meetings to disrupt them. Kind of like what the Pharisees did during Jesus mock trial.

The eldership does have the right (per by-laws) to require voting members to be those with certain minimum attendance, tithing history, etc.

[awareness]

It guess the autonomy of the locality didn't apply. Lee and LSM just tossed that out the window.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe when or if they lift the quarantine.

Look at all Steve Isitt "Indiana" has gone through.

Max and Ingalls et. al. never had their quarantines lifted.

I have talked before how ludicrous these *quarantines* are.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

OK, Drake, let me get this straight.

Knowing that beloved brother Dwight Rader was quite sick, Titus Chu woke up one morning and decided to send another former Mansfield elder and coworker to Mansfield with specific instructions to appoint elders (kind of like how Paul sent Titus to Crete to appoint elders) who would pick the coldest day of the year to lock out all the older saints.

Then completely out of the blue, some Anaheim, CA book publishing house, out of the goodness of their heart, decided they would step in with their free legal aid services.

Sure, that makes a lot of sense!

Ohio,

Your timeline is completely out of whack. Apparently you have nothing straight about Mansfield.

Dwight Rader passed away in August of 2008. The heavy handed unscriptural events in Mansfield perpetrated by the “elders” appointed by Titus Chu occurred almost 2 years earlier at the end of 2006.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

The heavy handed unscriptural events in Mansfield...

A follower of Witness Lee crying about "heavy handed unscriptural events"? Dude, I'm not asking you to quit your daytime gig, but you should seriously consider dabbling in standup comedy.

In the meantime...you haven't begun to answer my question:
WHAT WAS THE MAIN ISSUE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES IN ALL THE MIDWEST/CANADIAN FIASCO?
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Look at all Steve Isitt "Indiana" has gone through.

Max and Ingalls et. al. never had their quarantines lifted.

I have talked before how ludicrous these *quarantines* are.

They might be ludicrous, but they aren't funny.

Hosepipe (Elden Hall fame) once pointed out the carnage that was left in Lee's wake.

I know bro Drake has a favorable view of the LC ... to say the least ... bless his little pea pickin' heart. But the truth is that, prolly there's more that has walked away from the LC, than is in it at the moment. No one has kept a count.

But I've seen plenty leave, or get the boot. I remember when Max Rappoport was sent by Lee, to many localities. He was sent to shake things up. And that he did. He came to the c. in Ft. Lauderdale with an unusual message called, "On the Floor Fellowship" -- in other words, stop the all the spiritual pretending.

Right after that, a brother that came into the LC with me, a close friend before the LC, and up to that point a very on fire burning brother, walked, with strong outspoken vulgar opposition.

And word came back after Max left, of worse carnage in the other localities he assaulted. I was told in some cases that half the membership walked away.

Then, Mel Porter, head elder, stood up in meeting and said something like, "now that we've gotten rid of the dead weight, that was holding the church back, we can go on stronger than ever before.

That turned my stomach. Calling burning brothers and sisters, that were giving their all to Christ and the Church, dead weight, didn't wash with me in the least. That was just another bone of contention I had with Porter. By that time I had already caught on. That Porter had no touch with the Lord whatsoever. That all he had was blind zealotry towards Lee -- which is why Lee declared him lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale.

Then, years later, there was the quarantining of churches in the Mid-West.

More carnage ... that Christ wasn't causing. So much for the ground of locality bringing unity to Christians. That too was a great disappointment for me.

And I don't think he intends to, maybe he's never thought of it before, but brother Drake doesn't seem to show any sympathy toward those good brothers and sisters in the Lord, that were swept out, in Lee's wake. Maybe he thinks, or feels, "good riddance." Maybe he thinks good riddance toward all us exLCer's out here. Where the heart is, there lies the treasure.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is most surely their best attempt to get us to obey their ultimatum to meet with the Lee ministry, and that alone. My excommunication came about very swiftly after I let them know that we were seeking another assembly, closer to home, outside their group. I personally would have never cut off contact with the saints we were close with...there would always be an open door for any believer, no matter the assembly, distance...I see no reason to separate....I truly believe in the one body!
.

ByHismercy,

I don’t understand what you mean when you say you were excommunicated. Do you mean you were shunned using the term Sons to Glory used? For one to get excommunicated is a serious matter. There is usually a public declaration of some sort. You said you were getting ready to leave anyway. If you wanted to leave and for some reason they wanted you to leave there would be no need for excommunication. You just leave whenever you feel like it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

Your timeline is completely out of whack. Apparently you have nothing straight about Mansfield.

Dwight Rader passed away in August of 2008. The heavy handed unscriptural events in Mansfield perpetrated by the “elders” appointed by Titus Chu occurred almost 2 years earlier at the end of 2006.

Drake

Dwight was incapacitated for quite some time.

Why is the appointment of elders "heavy-handed?" Have you ever read some of the "heavy-handed" tactics by WL and his minions?

Unscriptural? Did you ever watch that Whistler Kangaroo Court? Endless violations of scripture.

It was a local matter. Why is a book store interfering? No one from LSM had ever been to Mansfield before.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHismercy,

I don’t understand what you mean when you say you were excommunicated. Do you mean you were shunned using the term Sons to Glory used? For one to get excommunicated is a serious matter. There is usually a public declaration of some sort. You said you were getting ready to leave anyway. If you wanted to leave and for some reason they wanted you to leave there would be no need for excommunication. You just leave whenever you feel like it.

Drake

There may not be any "public" declaration. Things can be said behind closed doors, and all of a sudden one loses all her family's friends and fellowship and basically becomes a cast off.

It is just pathetic that Drake can continue to play the blame game, play dumb to all of these hurtful things, and continue to excuse his people of all their despicable actions.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

I know bro Drake has a favorable view of the LC ... to say the least ... bless his little pea pickin' heart......And I don't think he intends to, maybe he's never thought of it before, but brother Drake doesn't seem to show any sympathy toward those good brothers and sisters in the Lord, that were swept out, in Lee's wake. Maybe he thinks, or feels, "good riddance." Maybe he thinks good riddance toward all us exLCer's out here. Where the heart is, there lies the treasure.

Awareness,

Appreciate the prompt.

Once a year, maybe twice, I get compelled to restate my views on the subject you raise above. It is probably necessary because in the course of standing up for my convictions over many posts it may not be apparent where my sympathies lay.

I am very sympathetic toward people who went through some negative or traumatic experience in the local churches. I’ve expressed this sentiment many times. For instance, I have said under the same circumstances some described that I do not know if I would have reacted any different than they did. I’ve even said to you, concerning your personal experience, that I might very well have been tossed out with you had I been in your locality at that time. I just do not know and cannot know for sure not being in the moment.

I also am sympathetic to posters here who never made it through the experience emotionally intact. There are many here who have not come to terms. Some are in the quagmire of despair,... seemingly stuck in time some decades ago. To their detriment some here appear to encourage them to stay there. That is unhealthy. Expressing sympathy in that case doesn’t help though I feel it. A few years ago Max Rappaports daughter visited this or another forum like it and said Max was surprised that we were still talking about his experience and history and that he had moved on. So, he did not allow it to consume him.

However, because I spend 95% of my posts on misunderstandings, correcting what Brothers Nee and Lee actually taught vs what is reported here, and sadly refuting some outright fabrications and slander against brothers and sisters in the local churches it will appear by sheer volume alone that I am unsympathetic. Nothing could be further from my true feelings. Nevertheless, I don’t really blame anyone for holding those views about me, it just goes along with being only one of two regulars that care enough to wade into the fray come what may.

Thanks for asking.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dwight was incapacitated for quite some time.

Why is the appointed of elders "heavy-handed?" Have you ever read some of the "heavy-handed" tactics by WL and his minions?

Unscriptural? Did you ever watch that Whistler Kangaroo Court? Endless violations of scripture.

It was a local matter. Why is a book store interfering? No one from LSM had ever been to Mansfield before.

You really do not understand what actually went on in Mansfield.

Yet, I suppose that Titus Chu appointing 4 elders without consulting the brothers in Mansfield could be considered heavy handed. But I didn’t say that.

The heavy handed tactics (3 mentioned in #117) that I was referring to I described already. You already read them so no need to reiterate them again.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In the meantime...you haven't begun to answer my question:
WHAT WAS THE MAIN ISSUE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES IN ALL THE MIDWEST/CANADIAN FIASCO?
-

UntoHim,

It’s been covered. I gave you my viewpoint in the opening of #117. You countered in #118.

However, you are trying to give impression that I am trying to shift the conversation to Titus Chu. But, I protest that characterization. It is Ohio, who for years has cited Mansfield as the poster child of mean ol’ LSM taking over churches against their will. I’m just providing the facts that he apparently never knew. LSM was never involved in the events I mentioned in #117. They were not behind the scenes pulling strings as is implied. They engaged later AFTER these events ... and they did the responsible thing in response to the heavy handed tactics from the 4 elders appointed by Titus Chu.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Awareness, Appreciate the prompt.
Once a year, maybe twice, I get compelled to restate my views on the subject you raise above. It is probably necessary because in the course of standing up for my convictions over many posts it may not be apparent where my sympathies lay.

Great response bro Drake. Thanks.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

Your timeline is completely out of whack. Apparently you have nothing straight about Mansfield.

Dwight Rader passed away in August of 2008. The heavy handed unscriptural events in Mansfield perpetrated by the “elders” appointed by Titus Chu occurred almost 2 years earlier at the end of 2006.

Drake

I may have missed this - What happened to the elders who were replaced by those appointed by Chu?

Drake - I’m also don’t understand what led up to Chu appointing these new elders (and removing the old?). When Ohio says the LSM intervened, who were these people and where were they from? I’m not asking for names...

I think Unto has a valid question (he may know the answer, I don’t). If people from the LSM intervened - it sounds like you’re saying it was because Chu was attempting a takeover and not letting people participate in table meetings? In not, what am I missing?

Finally on what authority did the LSM intervene? We’re these local members or did they help start the church? Did they own the building?

Maybe there is another thread that covers all this?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake - I’m also don’t understand what led up to Chu appointing these new elders (and removing the old?). When Ohio says the LSM intervened, who were these people and where were they from? I’m not asking for names...

....If people from the LSM intervened - it sounds like you’re saying it was because Chu was attempting a takeover and not letting people participate in table meetings? In not, what am I missing?

Finally on what authority did the LSM intervene?

LofT,

First, the attempted takeover of Mansfield in the fall of 2006 by Titus Chu through his proxies, the 4 elders he appointed, was preceded by a very public and open debate between Titus Chu supported by his coworkers and the blended brothers fulfilling their responsibility to carry on the ministry entrusted to them by Brother Lee. Titus Chu and his coworkers, particularly Nigel Tomes, launched very specific and targeted attacks on the blended brothers criticizing them by name. These attacks crescendoed in 2006 and had begun in earnest even in late 2005. So, the events in Mansfield were preceded by this hot intensified public debate for the better part of a year though Titus Chu was known to have criticized leading brothers in the Lords recovery long before that.

Second, by what authority you ask. A ministry is responsible for the churches it raises up. The church in Mansfield was raised up in 1966 largely by the ministry of Brothers Nee and Lee. Titus was an independent worker from Cleveland who influenced many churches in Ohio and the Midwest. However, that does not establish a right or entitlement to exert the kind of unscriptural authority over a local church as Titus and his proxy elders attempted to do. Look at #117 carefully. Those 3 items clearly show that Mansfield under those elders were swinging hard away from the basic standing, the most fundamental tenets of a local church. Were those deviations allowed to stand unchallenged the church in Mansfield would have lost its standing as a local church not able to receive all those whom the Lord has received.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

First, the attempted takeover of Mansfield in the fall of 2006 by Titus Chu through his proxies, the 4 elders he appointed, was preceded by a very public and open debate between Titus Chu supported by his coworkers and the blended brothers fulfilling their responsibility to carry on the ministry entrusted to them by Brother Lee. Titus Chu and his coworkers, particularly Nigel Tomes, launched very specific and targeted attacks on the blended brothers criticizing them by name. These attacks crescendoed in 2006 and had begun in earnest even in late 2005. So, the events in Mansfield were preceded by this hot intensified public debate for the better part of a year though Titus Chu was known to have criticized leading brothers in the Lords recovery long before that.

Second, by what authority you ask. A ministry is responsible for the churches it raises up. The church in Mansfield was raised up in 1966 largely by the ministry of Brothers Nee and Lee. Titus was an independent worker from Cleveland who influenced many churches in Ohio and the Midwest. However, that does not establish a right or entitlement to exert the kind of unscriptural authority over a local church as Titus and his proxy elders attempted to do. Look at #117 carefully. Those 3 items clearly show that Mansfield under those elders were swinging hard away from the basic standing, the most fundamental tenets of a local church. Were those deviations allowed to stand unchallenged the church in Mansfield would have lost its standing as a local church not able to receive all those whom the Lord has received.

Drake

Are these not myths and unending geealogies?

Neither Nee nor Lee ever raised up Mansfield. That is absurd. No Blended even visited that place. Mansfield was in close fellowship with Midwest LC's under the leadership of TC for decades before the events you describe, under the long term consistent shepherding of Brother Dwight Rader. Once his health deteriorated, corrupt operatives from LSM sought inroads while the Blendeds waged their tract wars against TC and his coworkers.

What authority do book editors in Anaheim have over some small LC in rural Ohio? According to your twisted logic, LSM can file lawsuits and divide churches based solely on one member buying a book from them. Fifty years ago.

Drake, your justification for LSM's corrupt behaviors in Ohio is no different than that assumed by the Judaizers in Galatia. They declared Jerusalem and the law of Moses the sole ministry source, and thus confered the authority of Moses to their own evil works.

Paul called them dogs. Rightly so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

First, the attempted takeover of Mansfield in the fall of 2006 by Titus Chu through his proxies, the 4 elders he appointed,

Here we need to take note of LSM's blatant hypocrisy as posted by Drake.

LSM (Nee, Lee, Wee Blendeds) has long taught that only the elders appointed by the apostles in every city are legitimate. They use Titus 1.5 and Acts 14.23 to support their teachings. Then they constantly affirm that the "condition" of the LC is unimportant as long as its standing and name are proper. LSM (se Nee's TNCCL) also teaches that the elders are the "highest court" and no outside ministry has any right to interfere.

Here we are discussing the church in Mansfield with elders appointed by a recognized apostle TC. The church is split into parties, one of Lee, and one of Titus, and one of Christ. The elders alone must administrate and shepherd these saints into one accord. It is their decision alone whether outside any ministers should be invited to help them.

But read Drake's posts. He belittles and disqualifies these 4 local elders as "TC proxies." This proves that in the minds of an LSMer, no elder on earth is legitimate unless he is subservient to them. Once again LSM has violated their own teachings. Hypocrites.

Then LSM interferes and incites some locals and former members to become rebellious against these elders because they are not recognized by LSM and thus illegitimate. LSM constantly condemns outsiders who interfere, unless it's them. Hypocrites.

They claim that Mansfield is their "fruit," raised up by W. Nee because 50 years ago a sister read TNCCL. Lee furthered the claim saying Mansfield was his fruit because they bought his books. The Blendeds, as if claiming their spiritual "inheritance" upon Lee's death, stake further claim to this church as their "fruit," though no Blended had ever even driven thru the town of Mansfield. Total hypocrisy!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here we are discussing the church in Mansfield with elders appointed by a recognized apostle TC.

Don't be silly. You no more recognize TC as an apostle then you did anyone else in the Lords' recovery.

Still, if he is recognized as an apostle by you then why aren't you part of his ministry?

Fact is, you only use TC as a club to bludgeon other christians.. those you refer to as Pharisees, know it all Levites and now dogs.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

First, the attempted takeover of Mansfield in the fall of 2006 by Titus Chu through his proxies, the 4 elders he appointed, was preceded by a very public and open debate between Titus Chu supported by his coworkers and the blended brothers fulfilling their responsibility to carry on the ministry entrusted to them by Brother Lee. Titus Chu and his coworkers, particularly Nigel Tomes, launched very specific and targeted attacks on the blended brothers criticizing them by name. These attacks crescendoed in 2006 and had begun in earnest even in late 2005. So, the events in Mansfield were preceded by this hot intensified public debate for the better part of a year though Titus Chu was known to have criticized leading brothers in the Lords recovery long before that

I think this shines a bit more light, but probably brings about more questions than answers (for me atleast). What was the typical brother, for example, Joe the Plummer (wasn’t he from Ohio??) doing during this year long fiasco? What was Titus Chu’s beef with the blended brothers? What was the blended brothers beef with Chu? How was Lee’s ministry started in Mansfield, what is the connection between the blended brothers and Mansfield? Finally what was the ultimate conclusion, where did the “saints” in Mansfield end up after all of this?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Finally what was the ultimate conclusion, where did the “saints” in Mansfield end up after all of this?

I decided to leave during the turmoil LSM inflicted on all the Midwest LC's. They came into nearly every LC and divided them. We all had to choose whether we were of Lee/Blendeds or of Titus Chu. I decided I was of neither and, upon learning much of the hidden history of the LCM, felt it was time.

It became readily apparent that two ministries were battling for power, and all the LC's were the spoils of war. Mansfield and Columbus were the only existing LC which lost everything to LSMers, when they filed lawsuits. My place had to enact new by-laws and hold elections to prevent LSM's surrogates from seizing church assets.

Many families were divided by LSM's actions. Most sided with Cleveland, but many sided with Anaheim, and many like me called it quits. We now had two LC's in every city standing on the ground of oneness. What a farce! Part of the lawsuits were to seize control of the franchise name "church in Mansfield."

As has been said, "tell me again about that church with no name that went to court to sue for rights to their name."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What was Titus Chu’s beef with the blended brothers? What was the blended brothers beef with Chu?

First I’ll preface my following comments with this point. I do not have a personal axe to grind with Titus Chu. I benefitted from his fellowship.personally. Some things he said stayed with me since he spoke them.

The issue goes way back with activities involving Titus in the Far East before Brother Lees passing. He said some things and it caused some problems. Brother Lee loved Titus and made several attempts to bring Titus into the ministry with the other coworkers. But it seemed to many of the coworkers and the elders in the Far East and eventually Brother Lee to determine that Titus was doing his own thing without fellowship. A ministry without fellowship is a nonstarter. Eventually Brother Lee had to issue a warning that Titus Chu was not representing the Lords recovery. Not long before Brother Lees passing it came to his attention that Titus had indicated to those in his circle that once Brother Lee passed they would run things. Brother Lee observed that it seemed some were hoping for the hastening of his departure.

After Brother Lee died Titus Chu stepped up his activity worldwide still without fellowship. A closer look at Mansfield after the appointment of his proxy elders shows significant Mansfield local church funds being diverted to several of Titus’ projects throughout the region and in places such as Kampala Uganda. This taxed the saints in Mansfield greatly. Same happened in other churches which explains the unscriptural demand for tithing as a criterion to partake of the Lords table. These things and the others mentioned in #117 changed the standing of the local church. At that point, those who objected to all these things were told they should leave. Shenanigans like changing the locks and not opening the meeting hall for several weeks and significant amount of the church funds having been taken and being diverted to Titus ministry forced outside intervention. Titus, his coworker from Detroit, and the proxy elders demanded obedience to their authority. It would have been irresponsible and a dereliction of spiritual and moral duty to stand idly by. That in sum was the gist of the beef the blended brothers had with Titus.

Drake

[awareness]

Brother Drake, I liked Titus. I also liked that he wasn't blindly aligned with Lee. I liked his independence.

But after reading your last post I'm not sure of your involvement in the Midwest controversy. So I need to ask. Were you with the Titus side, in the Midwest, or you with the Anaheim side? Where were you located at the time?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Drake, I liked Titus. I also liked that he wasn't blindly aligned with Lee. I liked his independence.

But after reading your last post I'm not sure of your involvement in the Midwest controversy. So I need to ask. Were you with the Titus side, in the Midwest, or you with the Anaheim side? Where were you located at the time?

Bro awareness

During the dust up period in mid 2000s I was somewhat neutral and took a mental wait and see approach for the reasons I stated in my last post. I suppose I held out hope that the one accord would win the day including Brother Titus. For me, and later, the leaves changed color with a more careful review of the series of Nigel Tomes articles. I thought, you know, this is Titus’ representative... seriously? Yet, in a sense that was a significant step forward for me... kind of snapped me out of a false hope I was holding onto.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness

During the dust up period in mid 2000s I was somewhat neutral and took a mental wait and see approach for the reasons I stated in my last post. I suppose I held out hope that the one accord would win the day including Brother Titus. For me, and later, the leaves changed color with a more careful review of the series of Nigel Tomes articles. I thought, you know, this is Titus’ representative... seriously? Yet, in a sense that was a significant step forward for me... kind of snapped me out of a false hope I was holding onto.

Drake

Thanks. That was nifty. False hope is never good, even when hoping for one accord.

A few days ago I called my JW friend about him being in a cult. He denies the JW's are a cult. I said, what about The Governing Body headquarters in New York, doesn't that make the JW's a cult?

I was thinking, of course, about the Anaheim headquarters in the local church. To me, both headquarters is what makes them both a cult. Earthly headquarters usurp the headship of Christ. Thereby producing a cult of authority.

So to me, the whole Titus Chu/Witness Lee/Blended Brothers power struggle smacks of usurpation of the headship of Christ, that was/is a competition of who runs the cult.

Maybe I was just naive back in the day, when I fell for Nee's and Lee's teaching of the autonomy of the locality. That would deal a big blow to any cult like organization. That idea was rejected by my JW friend, who justified the need for a headquarters, to get anything done. My response to him was, sounds like the church in Rome.

But bro Drake, do I detect a dodge in your response? You didn't tell me where you were located. Were you in Anaheim, or the Mid-West? or on the sidelines?

Thanks again for your kind response.

Harold

[Drake]

Bro awareness,

Yes, you spotted a dodge for privacy reasons.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

But it seemed to many of the coworkers and the elders in the Far East and eventually Brother Lee to determine that Titus was doing his own thing without fellowship. A ministry without fellowship is a nonstarter.

What you call "fellowship" is not fellowship, but control and manipulation. In the mind of a Blended "Doing his own thing" is what every minister in the world is doing. Like Phillip Lee before them, these Blendeds wanted Titus Chu to speak when they told him to, speak what they tell him to, and then to report back to HQ for a humiliating "dress down." Sorry ... Drake ... it was not going to happen. Not with TC.

Why do you give Paul, Luther, Darby, Nee, Lee (and the rest of evangelical Christianity) the right to set their own schedule, minister according to the anointing Spirit, and pioneer new territory -- but not Titus Chu. I am not defending everything TC does or said, but his ministry was far closer to the Bible than any of you Blendeds, who only repeated Lee's messages, which were filled with much leaven. I applaud him for standing up to an abusive publishing house / controlling headquarters. In like manner, the entire N.T. records Paul standing up to Jerusalem and the Judaizers.

These things and the others mentioned in #117 changed the standing of the local church. At that point, those who objected to all these things were told they should leave.

Missions offerings and tithing "changed the standing of the local church?" Seriously?!? What happened to having the "right name?" And what about all of LSM's boondoggles like Daystar, Lin Ko, and Little Bankers fleecing the LC's? The saints in Mansfield had no right to support a missionary work in Uganda? I guess that was not on LSM's approved "Giving List," which includes BFA, DCP, LME, GTCA, FTTA, and dozens of others.

The real problem here is that LSM allows no such liberty to others for the very things they do. Apostle Paul faced the same demands during his entire ministry. He concluded, "Stand fast in the liberty by which Christ has set you free."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness,

Yes, you spotted a dodge for privacy reasons.

Thanks
Drake

Where and when there's endless corruption and scandals, the need for transparency is tantamount.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness,

Yes, you spotted a dodge for privacy reasons.

Thanks
Drake

On computer forums we can only get at so much. Intentions are hard to come by.

Privacy reasons can be good and can be bad ; can be right, and can be wrong. I guess it's in the reason(s) for hiding. But you are hiding, right brother? Do I get that right?

I must remark. On the forum you strike me as having the right reason's for hiding. But I've been known to be wrong about things like that before.

Anyway brother. Hiding isn't easy. It takes staying focused, that nothing leaks out. Watch out for that brother. You could be found out.

But doesn't it all come out eventually? I don't know. There's only two witnesses, Matthew and Luke ... and they don't seem to jibe ... but didn't Jesus say something about proclaiming from the housetops?

Glory be that day!!!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where and when there's endless corruption and scandals, the need for transparency is tantamount.

Hear! Hear! Amen to that! Well said.

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm wondering if there can be - dare I say it - forgiveness?

So much blame has been assigned and walls have gone up and fortifications built . . . we see so clearly the beam in the other's person's eye.

Not only do we have a model, but Forgiveness Himself lives in us.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm wondering if there can be - dare I say it - forgiveness?

So much blame has been assigned and walls have gone up and fortifications built . . . we see so clearly the beam in the other's person's eye.

Not only do we have a model, but Forgiveness Himself lives in us.

Yeah, lift the quarantine.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, lift the quarantine.

Is that where the forgiveness begins?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is that where the forgiveness begins?

Just because some posters here desire to make LSM accountable does not mean there is no forgiveness.

It's Lee himself that added extra conditions i.e. "forgive and forget." That was sorely needed in the LCM to protect him and his sons from any responsibility for their actions.

But then again doesn't God Himself require some repentance before He will forgive?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

Privacy reasons can be good and can be bad ; can be right, and can be wrong. I guess it's in the reason(s) for hiding. But you are hiding, right brother? Do I get that right?

It is easier to speak harshly and pretend to carry a big stick when no one knows who you are.

Now - I'm not saying this is Drake - only he knows that.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just because some posters here desire to make LSM accountable does not mean there is no forgiveness.

It's Lee himself that added extra conditions i.e. "forgive and forget." That was sorely needed in the LCM to protect him and his sons from any responsibility for their actions.

But then again doesn't God Himself require some repentance before He will forgive?

Nope! When we were yet dead (zero response) in trespasses and sin . . . He already forgave us in Christ and initiated it all. He also puts the believing faith seed in us. We accept His free gift and come alive and find that forgiveness is already there, waiting for us.

And, I think, the forgetting is another thing that's only possible with Him. A brother expressed doubt to me that God can forget. But can God lie? No, and He says He will forget. He says it. He wouldn't say it unless it's true. Forgetting is Wonderful!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness

During the dust up period in mid 2000s I was somewhat neutral and took a mental wait and see approach for the reasons I stated in my last post. I suppose I held out hope that the one accord would win the day including Brother Titus. For me, and later, the leaves changed color with a more careful review of the series of Nigel Tomes articles. I thought, you know, this is Titus’ representative... seriously? Yet, in a sense that was a significant step forward for me... kind of snapped me out of a false hope I was holding onto.

Drake

So by Chu being wrong, that doesn't make the LSM right - but that seems like your position here. I wonder if any that followed Chu thought that he was the next minister of this age - thus still in the recovery?

So to summarize the issues (please correct me)

- Nigel Tomes (who was appointed by Chu) also didn't like what the blended brothers were doing. What didn't Nigel like? Was Nigel a part of the church in mansfield?

- He used church funds for a personal ministry against the will of the church body. How was he able to do this?

- Chu (acting alone?) appointed elders in the church against the will of the other members of the church

- Chu changed the locks on the church he administrated (I assume he administrated or else how would he change the locks?) No one could change the locks on one of my buildings without my permission...

- Chu required a tithe to participate in the Lord's Table (not sure if this means the meeting or act of communion)

- He disparaged the blended brothers (and Lee) - about what and why does this matter?

- Chu didn't seek fellowship from blended brothers (did he seek fellowship from those in the Mansfield church?)

- He was obligated (but declined) to seek advice and council (fellowship) from a group in Anaheim because that was a direct church plant of Witness Lee.

Ohio - is it true that Chu required saints to tithe? If so, what did that look like?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

On computer forums we can only get at so much. Intentions are hard to come by.

Privacy reasons can be good and can be bad ; can be right, and can be wrong. I guess it's in the reason(s) for hiding. But you are hiding, right brother? Do I get that right?

I must remark. On the forum you strike me as having the right reason's for hiding. But I've been known to be wrong about things like that before.

Anyway brother. Hiding isn't easy. It takes staying focused, that nothing leaks out. Watch out for that brother. You could be found out.

But doesn't it all come out eventually? I don't know. There's only two witnesses, Matthew and Luke ... and they don't seem to jibe ... but didn't Jesus say something about proclaiming from the housetops?

Glory be that day!!!

You are reading too much into it... it is simple. There are nut cases lurking about that will harass outside of the forum. I've been burned once and it will not happen twice.

Thanks
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

It is easier to speak harshly and pretend to carry a big stick when no one knows who you are.

Now - I'm not saying this is Drake - only he knows that.

Few posters here post under their real names. It's best these days.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Ohio - is it true that Chu required saints to tithe? If so, what did that look like?

Very doubtful.

Remember that the health of beloved brother Dwight Rader, long time shepherd elder of the church in Mansfield, slowly deteriorated over time or none of this would have happened. He was not a "hireling," as some were, but the "thief came in to steal, to kill, and to destroy." (John 10.10) After his departure "fierce wolves came in among you not sparing the flock." (Acts 20.29)

Under normal circumstances, the church would vote at their annual business meeting for those elders already appointed by TC. Minutes of meetings and voter tallies should be taken by the Secretary. Normally the elders then would become Pres, VP, Secretary, Treasurer, etc. of the church 501.c.4 organization based on her standing bylaws. Unfortunately most LC's were very lax about these procedures, never thinking that problems would arise.

There was "war" waged by LSM in every LC during the quarantines. LSmers took advantage of this carelessness. One brother CY was formerly an elder at both Mansfield and Columbus. He was not a spiritual man, but he was an administrator. Most LC full-timers and workers didn't even know where the file cabinets were, but CY did, and he knew what was in them, and what was not in them.

CY used this to his advantage. The courts care nothing about spiritual ministry, they only care for by-laws, minutes, and legalities. They had to have votes for officers, and they had to determine who was qualified to vote. Tithing and attendance were used as qualifiers to establish voter privileges for the members. Otherwise either side could bring people in off the street and pay them to vote.

Drake twists all the facts for evil. His people destroyed two LC's for filthy lucre. They completely caught the Midwest saints off guard. They are the legal experts. No one in the Midwest could have imagined what schemes LSM had devised.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You are reading too much into it... it is simple. There are nut cases lurking about that will harass outside of the forum. I've been burned once and it will not happen twice.

Thanks
Drake

Don't worry. You have a great legal team behind you at DCP.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

You are reading too much into it... it is simple. There are nut cases lurking about that will harass outside of the forum. I've been burned once and it will not happen twice.

Thanks
Drake

Goodness brother, now you make me feel for you. I don't want you to get burned, by outsiders, or harassed. How did you manage to get stuck in such an environment? Are these harassers "Christian" hostiles? As I see it, looking at history, and my own personal experiences, we could easily concluded that, it's very Christian to be hateful.

[Drake]

LofT.

My answers provided in blue since you seem genuinely interested.

So by Chu being wrong, that doesn't make the LSM right - but that seems like your position here.

At one point I appreciated all the ministering brothers including Titus Chu.

I wonder if any that followed Chu thought that he was the next minister of this age - thus still in the recovery?

Ohio says Titus Chu is a "recognized apostle". According to the New Testament pattern an apostle is a gift to the Body. Anyone who holds that view of Titus should also be aligned with his ministry.

So to summarize the issues (please correct me)

- Nigel Tomes (who was appointed by Chu) also didn't like what the blended brothers were doing. What didn't Nigel like? Was Nigel a part of the church in mansfield?

Nigel is from Toronto. He represents Titus Chu on a variety of topics. As far as Brother Lee and the Lord's recovery he doesn't appear to like much.... he is like Ohio in that sense. So it is hard to know what he does like because he spends his days talking about what he doesn't like. In any case, I found his articles to be disingenuous, not logical, and really just hit pieces... and therefore I realized that Titus had changed and also the anointing I enjoyed from him and in his messages was not the same.

- He used church funds for a personal ministry against the will of the church body. How was he able to do this?

The proxy elders took over finances of the church in Mansfield and began to divert to Titus' ministry.

- Chu (acting alone?) appointed elders in the church against the will of the other members of the church

Right.

- Chu changed the locks on the church he administrated (I assume he administrated or else how would he change the locks?) No one could change the locks on one of my buildings without my permission...

The proxy elders had the locks changed. Titus did not live in Mansfield. He was in Cleveland. He sent a coworker from Detroit to inform the saints in Mansfield that 4 new elders are appointed and everyone must do as they say because they are the authority.

- Chu required a tithe to participate in the Lord's Table (not sure if this means the meeting or act of communion)

Read #117 for the complete criterion to partake of the Lord's table in Mansfield.

- He disparaged the blended brothers (and Lee) - about what and why does this matter?

Anyone can hold whatever opinion they like of anyone else. It becomes a problem when someone claims to represent a ministry, and be a part of it, but refuses to fellowship with others taking care of that ministry. As I said before, that is a non-starter for a ministry.

- Chu didn't seek fellowship from blended brothers (did he seek fellowship from those in the Mansfield church?)

Apparently neither.

- He was obligated (but declined) to seek advice and council (fellowship) from a group in Anaheim because that was a direct church plant of Witness Lee.

No. Not related to the church in Anaheim. The ministry is what is relevant here. Any and all of the serving brothers who are taking the lead in that ministry cannot be lone independent riders doing their own thing AND claim to represent that ministry. If they want to have their own ministry then they have that liberty before the Lord.... he just can't go around to churches in the Far East and other places claiming he is the continuation of the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. And if Titus refused to seek fellowship, and continue to do his own thing under the banner of the Lord's recovery then few choices remain. You have to inform all the churches who are taking this way that Titus is not a representative of the ministry he claims to be a part of and the things he is saying is causing problems even division. thus, the quarantine.

Ohio - is it true that Chu required saints to tithe? If so, what did that look like?

Ohio doesn't know. 10% minimum. Pay to play. See #117.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Few posters here post under their real names. It's best these days.

Yes, I know members out here that are hiding their identity because they have family still in the LC, and they don't want to poke that hornet's nest, by letting them know that they are anti-LC, and anti-Lee. Why stir up those kinds of troubles?

Doesn't that tell you something about the local church, and their cult mentality, that causes dissenters to fear them?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness brother, now you make me feel for you. I don't want you to get burned, by outsiders, or harassed. How did you manage to get stuck in such an environment? Are these harassers "Christian" hostiles? As I see it, looking at history, and my own personal experiences, we could easily concluded that, it's very Christian to be hateful.

Fortunately, UntoHim to his credit, runs a secure forum respecting members privacy and insuring their personal details are not disclosed publicly. IT is up to each member to share what they want to.

Other forums, including christian forums, are not so careful. So I had one very bad experience getting harassed outside a forum by forum participants (Christians they were). . I really don't want to go through that again nor put my family through it.

Thanks
Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, I know members out here that are hiding their identity because they have family still in the LC, and they don't want to poke that hornet's nest, by letting them know that they are anti-LC, and anti-Lee. Why stir up those kinds of troubles?

Doesn't that tell you something about the local church, and their cult mentality, that causes dissenters to fear them?

Yes, that would be one reason to maintain anonymity. I can think of others - this is like a big online masquerade party!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Other forums, including christian forums, are not so careful. So I had one very bad experience getting harassed outside a forum by forum participants (Christians they were). . I really don't want to go through that again nor put my family through it.

Thanks
Drake

That's too bad and a long way from "In this way shall all men know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." "Father, that they all may be one, even as we are one."

But, the Christian life IS in fact quite impossible . . .

(And yes, thanks for the confidentiality of this forum's administrators!)

[Ohio]

Let me wade thru this swamp, making clarifications ...

Note the color coding LeastofThese, Drake, Ohio ...

1. LeastOfThese: He used church funds for a personal ministry against the will of the church body. How was he able to do this?
Drake: The proxy elders took over finances of the church in Mansfield and began to divert to Titus' ministry.
Ohio: All the Midwest LC's supported the regional workers' fund administered in Cleveland. Whether you like it or not, this was no different than other LC's under Lee and the Blendeds, but LSMers used this as a bone of contention in the court. Hypocrites!

2. Chu (acting alone?) appointed elders in the church against the will of the other members of the church
Right.
Wrong. In the LC system, like it or not, the apostles appoint elders. Some members in Mansfield, stirred up by outside LSM operatives, did not like these appointments.

3. Chu changed the locks on the church he administrated (I assume he administrated or else how would he change the locks?) No one could change the locks on one of my buildings without my permission...
The proxy elders had the locks changed. Titus did not live in Mansfield. He was in Cleveland. He sent a coworker from Detroit to inform the saints in Mansfield that 4 new elders are appointed and everyone muc do as they say because they are the authority.
Titus Chu sent Norm Minahan from Detroit. Norm formerly was an elder in Mansfield and a mature co-worker. He even spent time in Anaheim for several years ('93-'97) requested by W. Lee for "blending."

It was thru prayer and fellowship that certain brothers were selected to be elders. Did not Paul send Timothy and Titus to appoint elders? Are not the elders to be respected as authority in the church per the teachings of Nee and Lee?

Drake calls them "proxies" disrespectfully, but is he not also an LSM "proxy" on this forum.

4. Chu required a tithe to participate in the Lord's Table (not sure if this means the meeting or act of communion)
Read #117 for the complete criterion to partake of the Lord's table in Mansfield.
Wrong! Tithing requirement was only for voting privileges, not for meeting or fellowship. Only requirement for communion was faith in Jesus Christ and a little civility, which was often lacking.

5. He disparaged the blended brothers (and Lee) - about what and why does this matter?
Anyone can hold whatever opinion they like of anyone else. It becomes a problem when someone claims to represent that ministry refuses to fellowship with others taking care of that ministry. As I said before, that is a non-starter for a ministry.
Titus Chu and the Blendeds publicly disparaged each other for years. Part of why I left. TC never claimed to represent the Blendeds' ministry.

6. Chu didn't seek fellowship from blended brothers (did he seek fellowship from those in the Mansfield church?)
Apparently neither.
Chu could not even get the Blendeds to abide by the decency guidelines mutually established in the Phoenix Accord. Does TC need approval from Anaheim to appoint an elder in Ohio?

Many in Mansfield knew these new elders and approved of the appointments. It was the dissenters, stirred up by outsiders, that caused much turmoil.

7. He was obligated (but declined) to seek advice and council (fellowship) from a group in Anaheim because that was a direct church plant of Witness Lee.
No. Not related to the church in Anaheim. The ministry is what is relevant here. Any and all of the serving brothers who are taking the lead in that ministry cannot be lone independent riders doing their own thing AND claim to represent that ministry. If they want to have their own ministry then they have that liberty before the Lord.... he just can't go around to churches in the Far East and other places claiming he is the continuation of the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. And if Titus refused to seek fellowship, and continue to do his own thing under the banner of the Lord's recovery then few choices remain. You have to inform all the churches who are taking this way that Titus is not a representative of the ministry he claims to be a part of and the things he is saying is causing problems even division. thus, the quarantine.
TC used to regularly fellowship with WL, but Lee did NOT confer any authority to the Blendeds when he died that TC was required to honor, obey, and submit to.

8. Ohio - is it true that Chu required saints to tithe? If so, what did that look like?
Ohio doesn't know. 10% minimum. Pay to play. See #117.
Let the reader decide for himself who knows what.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me wade thru this swamp, making clarifications ...

Props to Drake and Ohio - thank you!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Fortunately, UntoHim to his credit, runs a secure forum respecting members privacy and insuring their personal details are not disclosed publicly. IT is up to each member to share what they want to.

Other forums, including christian forums, are not so careful. So I had one very bad experience getting harassed outside a forum by forum participants (Christians they were). . I really don't want to go through that again nor put my family through it.

Thanks
Drake

It makes sense that UntoHim runs a tight ship - it allows for those who would be bullied, fear retaliation, or fear getting cut off from friends and family to post...

Frequent posters, like yourself, should man up. Nobody is asking for your address, social security number, or name of first pet.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There may not be any "public" declaration. Things can be said behind closed doors, and all of a sudden one loses all her family's friends and fellowship and basically becomes a cast off.

It is just pathetic that Drake can continue to play the blame game, play dumb to all of these hurtful things, and continue to excuse his people of all their despicable actions.

Hmmm, wow, Ohio, your insight makes me think you went through the same situation I did, maybe another version of the same story...? Amazing how many testimonies can be found online that are almost mirror images of my LC experience. We were cast off by one whom we had opened our home to....invited to come and live in our home...a person my kids call Grandma...our shunning is not a figment of my imagination. Their friendship and fellowship in Christ, I have come to learn, was a figment of my imagination...it was all one sided. Genuine on our part, faked on the LC side.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If by chance you come Scottsdale way, look me up! There's a good number of recovering Recovery saints here, who just love Jesus!

Thank you for the invitation, brother, we sure would love to meet with you folks in Scottsdale...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hmmm, wow, Ohio, your insight makes me think you went through the same situation I did, maybe another version of the same story...? Amazing how many testimonies can be found online that are almost mirror images of my LC experience. We were cast off by one whom we had opened our home to....invited to come and live in our home...a person my kids call Grandma...our shunning is not a figment of my imagination. Their friendship and fellowship in Christ, I have come to learn, was a figment of my imagination...it was all one sided. Genuine on our part, faked on the LC side.

Before I left the LC in 2005, for several years I studied Plymouth Brethren history, reading many stories of division and excommunication. The Lord gave me the desire to understand what had happened to us -- how could something so good become so bad? This highly contagious Christian disease of pride, exclusivism, and elitism had been around since the time of Jesus. The Gospel of John lists a few stories of shunning just to show us these painful events occurred in the 1st century.

On this forum, poster Indiana also resides in the NW. He has been treated as bad or even worse.

The LC disease is systemic, members from every area of the world have been outrageously treated just like you. Love for Jesus and brotherly love has long been replaced with love and zeal for a man and his teachings.

The Good News is that the Spirit of Jesus Christ is well able to comfort you and encourage you in your trials. He has been thru this before with many of His other children for two millennia. You may not get any "justice" in this age, but I guarantee that His grace is sufficient for you and your family.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And let me add that things go sideways when authority outside of an ekklesia is subjected upon it (other than Christ)

Good point.

An elder running around the meeting hall in Mansfield shouting “I am the authority! I’m the elder! I have the authority!” ...

.. is probably not the authority.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let the reader decide for himself who knows what.

Until brother Drake proves otherwise, I'm going with bro Ohio. I know he was there, and don't know if bro Drake was.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

An elder running around the meeting hall in Mansfield shouting “I am the authority! I’m the elder! I have the authority!” ...

.. is probably not the authority.

And that goes for Lee ... and Nee before him ... and even Titus.

Just who do they think they are, or were? -> Self Claimers ... and that's all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Good point.

An elder running around the meeting hall in Mansfield shouting “I am the authority! I’m the elder! I have the authority!” ...

.. is probably not the authority.

Drake

Extremely doubtful, prolly fake news coming out of Anaheim.

Was it the same brother who was seen in Anaheim screaming in the streets, "I am a baby god, I am a god-man, I am a baby god!!!"

Hi Drake, hate to break the news to you. Probably he is not god either.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Until brother Drake proves otherwise, I'm going with bro Ohio. I know he was there, and don't know if bro Drake was.

This isn’t a team sport.

Ohio dropped out a year before the events in Mansfield took place. Nevertheless, I’m sure he appreciates the support.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Extremely doubtful, prolly fake news coming out of Anaheim.

Was it the same brother who was seen in Anaheim screaming in the streets, "I am a baby god, I am a god-man, I am a baby god!!!"

Hi Drake, hate to break the news to you. Probably he is not god either.

Sadly, it is not fake news. Sometimes I wish it were, like when Titus’ coworker gets in a brothers face during a Mansfield meeting goading the brother to “punch him”. “Come on, punch me! You know you want to!.”

Nutty.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

This isn’t a team sport.

Ohio dropped out a year before the events in Mansfield took place. Nevertheless, I’m sure he appreciates the support.

Drake

Did I make a mistake? Do you have closer and more inside information on Mansfield than bro Ohio ... cuz Ohio dropped out before it all went down?

Is that right bro Ohio?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sadly, it is not fake news. Sometimes I wish it were, like when Titus’ coworker gets in a brothers face during a Mansfield meeting goading the brother to “punch him”. “Come on, punch me! You know you want to!.”

Nutty.

I'll say nutty. A meeting in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale almost broke out in fist-a-cuffs, with fists doubled up, and ready to fly.

Why? Over loyalty to Witness Lee. After that meeting about 40 brothers broke with the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, moved north to Boca Raton, Fl, declared the ground, and declared total loyalty to Witness Lee. That was back in the 1980s. Did the Lord bless that move? No. There's still only around 40 members there, dying out by attrition.

Really nutty indeed. The Lord does not, and is not, blessing Lee. It's all men driven, and human aggrandized. Loyalty to him is foolishness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sadly, it is not fake news. Sometimes I wish it were, like when Titus’ coworker gets in a brothers face during a Mansfield meeting goading the brother to “punch him”. “Come on, punch me! You know you want to!.”

Nutty.

Drake

He apologized for all that, privately and publicly. I guess it was a "turn the other cheek" moment.

Listen, Drake, there was lots of nasty on both sides. Remind me once again about the justification LSM has to hold local training sessions teaching the saints to file lawsuits against their brothers and sisters.

And I found it extremely odd that LSMers would celebrate every judge's ruling in their favor as a ruling from the throne of God. Did not Paul instruct the Corinthians that it is a shame to go to the Gentiles' courts?

But none of these contentious issues ever existed in Mansfield until Benson Phillips decided to quarantine Titus Chu in a totally unscriptural, rather political, hit job the likes of which played out in nearly every other Midwest LC.

But lest the reader consider these ones sent from Anaheim to be angelic messengers sent from heaven, hundreds of other nightmare stories about LSM's fleshly ways of dividing churches can also be found on this forum.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'll say nutty. A meeting in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale almost broke out in fist-a-cuffs, with fists doubled up, and ready to fly.

Why? Over loyalty to Witness Lee. After that meeting about 40 brothers broke with the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, moved north to Boca Raton, Fl, declared the ground, and declared total loyalty to Witness Lee. That was back in the 1980s. Did the Lord bless that move? No. There's still only around 40 members there, dying out by attrition.

Really nutty indeed. The Lord does not, and is not, blessing Lee. It's all men driven, and human aggrandized. Loyalty to him is foolishness.

So awareness you saw first hand how LSM could provoke certain ambitious nut jobs to misconstrue the scriptural admonition to "fight the good fight" of the faith.

LSM thrives on this kind of fleshly zealotry. During the "new way" of the late 80's there were hundreds of stories like yours. Until one understands how Lee and LSM really operate, he/she will always be deceived by their abundance of teachings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

This isn’t a team sport.

Ohio dropped out a year before the events in Mansfield took place. Nevertheless, I’m sure he appreciates the support.

Drake

So Drake you were at Mansfield stirring up more trouble.

Shame on you.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sadly, it is not fake news. Sometimes I wish it were, like when Titus’ coworker gets in a brothers face during a Mansfield meeting goading the brother to “punch him”. “Come on, punch me! You know you want to!.”

Nutty.

Drake

Drake, from your experience with these matters. What could the LSM representatives done differently or better?

*edit- in regards to the the whole story in Mansfield

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake, from your experience with these matters. What could the LSM representatives done differently or better?

*edit- in regards to the the whole story in Mansfield

LofT,

You’re asking for a rear view mirror analysis of an event that unfolded over decades with a brother that many of us appreciated and respected. So, it’s really hard to know what action would have made a difference and when. Would nipping the bud of ambition decades earlier prevented the Mansfield event or one like it? As C.S.Lewis observed “no one knows what would have happened “. It’s a double edged sword. Taking decisive action too soon might cause problems and taking action too late might cause problems. Taking any at all action may cause a turmoil and taking no action may cause a turmoil. What we know for sure is there was a turmoil! Consequences follow turmoils. Mansfield was a consequence of a turmoil in a larger context (the Midwest). Even our precious brother Ohio who, I am confident , at his very core is a caring and loving person toward all Christians suffered as a consequence of that same turmoil. He dropped out. I’m certain everyone involved considered the question you asked at some point. If only this, if only that but there is no way of knowing what would have happened.

Representatives from 20 local churches met in Iowa City to fellowship about the situation in Mansfield after the takeover by Titus Chus proxy elders. In answer to your question I would say, more of that type of fellowship was needed in Mansfield, in the Midwest, and throughout the U.S. Yet, did that fellowship prevent the activity I described in #117 from occurring? Nope. Therefore, looking in the rear view mirror this we can say for sure, the Midwest turmoil was a test to us. God did not design it but he obviously allowed it. Perhaps, for the reason Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 11:19.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You’re asking for a rear view mirror analysis of an event that unfolded over decades with a brother that many of us appreciated and respected. So, it’s really hard to know what action would have made a difference and when. Would nipping the bud of ambition decades earlier prevented the Mansfield event or one like it?

This has been the LSM talking point for decades -- blaming all others for the ambiguous accusation of AMBITION. LSM's basic premise is that only Witness Lee himself, pure as the driven snow, was without that dreaded sin of ambition, and all others, especially TC, are vulnerable to its prey. Problem is God has given man "ambition" for basic survival. Ambition is normal! No ambition and we all die! Where is the dreaded sin of ambition listed among the 10 Commandments, with all the gross sins of mankind, or among the works of the flesh?

Was Witness Lee not ambitious? Did he not send his proxies to take over the church in NYC? (see Stephen Kaung's account) Did he not send his proxies (Mel Porter) to take over Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (read awareness' account)? Did he not send his proxies (Francis Ball) to take over Rosemead? (Read Wang's and Hardy's accounts) Did he not send his proxies to take over North Carolina? (read Bill Mallon's account) This list, going back to Taiwan and China, is almost endless.

And you condemn TC for ambition? Did he not pray and act in concert with other Midwest leaders? Norm Minahan in Detroit and Dave Shields in Akron are just two senior brothers, well-respected in the LCM who had lived and served in Mansfield. They had invested years into the care of that LC. Were they not consulted, along with other workers? Drake, you love to isolate Titus Chu as some rogue actor acting independently form the vast majority of Blended brothers, but nothing could be further from the truth.

These Blended, Blinded brothers had nothing to do with the Midwest LC's, either in their origins or in their shepherding. One Blended brother E.M. never once visited the church in his home town! Not one time over 25 years. We even caught him shopping 100 feet from the meeting hall, and he was embarrassed that we saw him. We used to pick up his dear mother so that she could come to the meeting hall and watch him speak on the video. Did he ever care about the church here? Never! Not one bit! But ask ole Ed to write tracts bashing us, and he could really pump them out!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So awareness you saw first hand how LSM could provoke certain ambitious nut jobs to misconstrue the scriptural admonition to "fight the good fight" of the faith.

LSM thrives on this kind of fleshly zealotry. During the "new way" of the late 80's there were hundreds of stories like yours. Until one understands how Lee and LSM really operate, he/she will always be deceived by their abundance of teachings.

“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****.”
― W.C. Fields

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Was Witness Lee not ambitious? Did he not send his proxies to take over the church in NYC? (see Stephen Kaung's account) Did he not send his proxies (Mel Porter) to take over Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (read awareness' account)? Did he not send his proxies (Francis Ball) to take over Rosemead? (Read Wang's and Hardy's accounts) Did he not send his proxies to take over North Carolina? (read Bill Mallon's account) This list, going back to Taiwan and China, is almost endless.

Did Witness Lee’s proxies also file a lawsuit against these other local churches?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Did Witness Lee’s proxies also file a lawsuit against these other local churches?

Don't think so. They were just able to take over those LC's.

As with anything wrong, Lee's bad habits tended to worsen as the Blendeds took over.

Lee filed lawsuits for the books GodMen and Mindbenders, which were pretty bad. The Blendeds, however, filed a lawsuit against Heritage House (going all the way to SCOTUS) for next to nothing in their book Encyclopedia of Cults. Then the Blendeds started filing lawsuits against Midwest LC's after TC was quarantined. The three I know of were Mansfield, Columbus, and Toronto, Ontario, being successful with the first two.

LSMers would always play the victim, "After exhausting all other avenues of Christian discourse, 'we had no choice' but to seek relief from the courts ..."

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

And there it is! Finally, when all else fails, we are "forced" to take Christ! (or at least, that's what should happen . . . y-all hopefully get what I mean)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And there it is! Finally, when all else fails, we are "forced" to take Christ! (or at least, that's what should happen . . . y-all hopefully get what I mean)

It's become readily apparent that the Head of LSM is Lee, and the God of LSM is the courts.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's become readily apparent that the Head of LSM is Lee, and the God of LSM is the courts.

And that is what happens when Adam takes control, which is just what he has tried to do since supposedly taking control in Eden.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSMers would always play the victim, "After exhausting all other avenues of Christian discourse, 'we had no choice' but to seek relief from the courts ..."

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

Ohio,

And yet, you don’t take your own advice in the court of public opinion.

All,
In this thread an objective reader will observe that the timeline shows a takeover of the local church in Mansfield by proxy elders appointed by Titus Chu and only after the shenanigans described such as the meeting hall takeover, demanding that the saints obey the proxy elders authority, getting locked out of their meetings in the cold, implementing new unscriptural paractices such as having to tithe to partake of the Lords table, local church finances being diverted to Titus Chu’s ministry projects, and of course public bullying tactics like the coworker goading members in a meeting to “punch me! Come on, you know you want to!” ....only after theses events did LSM become involved.

And yet, In spite, of all those terrible and unscriptural things foisted on the saints in Mansfield, Ohio likes to use Mansfield as a poster child blaming Living Stream Ministry for jumping into the fray to help the saints who were suffering in Mansfield on the legal side. He himself left (2005) a year before the Mansfield events (2006) determining that neither the Lords recovery or Titus Chu were to his liking. Yet, he uses Titus Chu as a club to beat and slander other brothers, ignoring Mansfield history because it doesn’t fit his narrative , and defending those ungodly practices by the proxy elders and Titus’ coworker. Ohio, asserts that Titus is a “recognized apostle” and he also uses that as a club though he gives no regard to Titus as an apostle himself. He cites scripture charging others to “rather be wronged” but applies it only to those he opposes. He feigns disgust at appealing to the courts but he appeals to the court of public opinion. In other words, Ohio is not willing to be wronged.

For those reasons, I believed the facts of Mansfield history needed to be put on the table. Ohio will still blame and slander Christians in the local churches but an objective reader now has facts to show his criticism about Mansfield is one sided and uninformed. That is the only reason I brought these matters up. An argument of moral equivalency, Ohio’s favorite fallacy argument, cannot excuse the takeover of Mansfield by Titus Chu, his coworker from Detroit, and his appointed proxy elders.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

For those reasons, I believed the facts of Mansfield history needed to be put on the table. Ohio will still blame and slander Christians in the local churches but an objective reader now has facts to show his criticism about Mansfield is one sided and uninformed. That is the only reason I brought these matters up. An argument of moral equivalency, Ohio’s favorite fallacy argument, cannot excuse the takeover of Mansfield by Titus Chu, his coworker from Detroit, and his appointed proxy elders.

Brother Drake, I would be careful with your words. You don't know how you come off to the objective reader...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

And yet, you don’t take your own advice in the court of public opinion.

Bro Drake, ya know that I love you but, I call false equivalency. There's no monetary judgments in the court of public opinion. In fact, there's no final judgement at all. The court of public opinion is a mixed bag at best. But I can see why you don't like it. The court of public opinion will greatly frustrate the growth of the LSM denomination/sect.

Originally Posted by D

All,
In this thread an objective reader will observe that the timeline shows a takeover of the local church in Mansfield by proxy elders appointed by Titus Chu and only after the shenanigans described such as the meeting hall takeover, demanding that the saints obey the proxy elders authority, getting locked out of their meetings in the cold, implementing new unscriptural paractices such as having to tithe to partake of the Lords table, local church finances being diverted to Titus Chu’s ministry projects, and of course public bullying tactics like the coworker goading members in a meeting to “punch me! Come on, you know you want to!” ....only after theses events did LSM become involved.

Even if all that is gospel truth, why did LSM have any right to break up the fight? It was local. Besides, they were a couple thousand miles away, butting into local matters that wasn't any of their business. What? Are they the worlds' ministry police?

Oh. Did I forgot? Do they have intellectual property rights over everything Nee & Lee? Like they do over Jim Moran?

Brother Ohio was right to walk away from that mess. Cuz if that was an example "The Recovery," it failed miserably. Seems to me that Christ was absent in all parties involved.

And if you didn't also walk away from it all, shame on you. It calls all your accounts and judgments into question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Ohio was right to walk away from that mess. Cuz if that was an example "The Recovery," it failed miserably. Seems to me that Christ was absent in all parties involved.

And if you didn't also walk away from it all, shame on you. It calls all your accounts and judgments into question.

Ya gotta love ole brother Drake. The Blendeds gave him a few distorted talking points, and holds on to them til the end.

I was once that way. I still remember the day, prolly 40 years ago, frantically scribbling down WL's talking points about filing lawsuits against Christians -- "we're just appealing to Caesar" and so on. I held on to them until the day I heard they were filing lawsuits against Columbus and Mansfield. We were suing ourselves!

Like awareness said, I did walk away from all that mess. There was nothing I could do. All of Lee's special and exclusive teachings on oneness, the ground of oneness, God's economy, etc. was all called in to question. Brothers were suing their brothers! This place has gone crazy! What the hell is Benson Philips doing? LSM is suing us?!? We gave them a $Million for their new LaPalma campus, and they are now suing us?

I was forced to take sides. Everyone had to choose sides. "Choose ye this day -- TC or the BB." Each side said I had "To stand for the truth" and side with them. Families were divided in the name of oneness!

Truth is the Lord had left long ago. Jesus had left the building. He was outside knocking at the door. He was calling us to come out and dine with Him. (Rev 3.20)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I held on to them until the day I heard they were filing lawsuits against Columbus and Mansfield.

Columbus is the second fav poster child of Ohio’s as he likes to cast Living Stream Ministry as the perpetrator when in reality events in Columbus followed a very similar pattern as Mansfield. Titus Chu appointed elders in Columbus used similar heavy handed tactics as did the Mansfield proxy elders along with the Titus Chus coworker from Detroit.

Two notable examples mentioned about Mansfield were found in Columbus too. First, the elders wanted to know which saints were giving and how much. This violates the practice in the local churches were saints just give according to their consideration before the Lord and a discreet offering box sitting at the back of the hall.

Second, the elders in Columbus diverted a significant portion of the offerings collected from the saints to Titus Chu projects placing a heavy burden on the saints and jeopardized their meeting hall properties.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Even if all that is gospel truth, why did LSM have any right to break up the fight? It was local. Besides, they were a couple thousand miles away, butting into local matters that wasn't any of their business. What? Are they the worlds' ministry police?.

Local matter?

Mansfield is not Cleveland. Cleveland is not Columbus. Detroit is not Mansfield.

So bro awareness, is this a Google Maps doctrine that says if you are thousands of miles away butt out and if you are hundreds of miles away you can takeover and misappropriate local church finances. Since Titus was in Cleveland he can appoint his own elders in Mansfield and Columbus and channel the funding to the charity of his choice?

So then, how do you advise Titus about his adventures in Kampala? Just how far is Cleveland from Kampala?

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Local matter?

Mansfield is not Cleveland. Cleveland is not Columbus. Detroit is not Mansfield.

So bro awareness, is this a Google Maps doctrine that says if you are thousands of miles away butt out and if you are hundreds of miles away you can takeover and misappropriate local church finances. Since Titus was in Cleveland he can appoint his own elders in Mansfield and Columbus and channel the funding to the charity of his choice?

So then, how do you advise Titus about his adventures in Kampala? Just how far is Cleveland from Kampala?

Drake

It was a mid-west problem. That did not make any of it right. As I said, Christ was absent from all parties involved. LSM had no right to step in. Not unless LSM is the headquarters over all local churches, and autonomy of the locality was tossed out of the ground of the locality doctrine.

The whole thing smacks of "The Governing Body" over all of the Kingdom Halls. Same, same.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just because some posters here desire to make LSM accountable does not mean there is no forgiveness.

It's Lee himself that added extra conditions i.e. "forgive and forget." That was sorely needed in the LCM to protect him and his sons from any responsibility for their actions.

But then again doesn't God Himself require some repentance before He will forgive?

Forgiveness in the local churches is like a minefield. Forgiveness is an individual matter and not a corporate matter. From brother to brother and from sister to sister there may be forgiveness to ones who left and there may not be. For some forgiveness may be a matter of what the leading brothers say.
Conversely, same applies to ones who left the local churches. Forgiveness might require months for some and for others it may take years. Depending how long it takes to heal the hurt.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Columbus is the second fav poster child of Ohio’s as he likes to cast Living Stream Ministry as the perpetrator when in reality events in Columbus followed a very similar pattern as Mansfield. Titus Chu appointed elders in Columbus used similar heavy handed tactics as did the Mansfield proxy elders along with the Titus Chus coworker from Detroit.

Drake, I have a vested interest in Columbus, as I was one of the bros. who migrated there originally. Your comment about "heavy handed tactics" is about as deceptive and disingenuous as it gets. Of course, TC appointed elders -- it is the LC way. Are you serious? You neither know anything nor do you care about Columbus or Mansfield.

You are nothing more than some keyboard critic casting condemnations from afar. You sit there with your other Blendeds rapping on your computer accusations based on lies and falsehoods. You are just like Witness Lee who could condemn every Christian on earth, yet having never met them.

Two notable examples mentioned about Mansfield were found in Columbus too. First, the elders wanted to know which saints were giving and how much. This violates the practice in the local churches were saints just give according to their consideration before the Lord and a discreet offering box sitting at the back of the hall.

What hypocrisy! I was church Treasurer for 10 years. Every church in America with 501.c.4 tax exempt status is required to record offerings. Of course, the elders had access to those records. Go to every single LSM LC in the USA and it is the same. If you don't like that, give cash. But if you gave money, we would refuse it!

Second, the elders in Columbus diverted a significant portion of the offerings collected from the saints to Titus Chu projects placing a heavy burden on the saints and jeopardized their meeting hall properties.

Are you that forgetful or just willfully ignorant, to my prior posts answering this question? Columbus had Full-Time workers just like most large LC's. They were supported by a regional fund in Cleveland. Columbus donated to that fund. This format was set up under the direction of Lee himself back in the 80's. There was no jeopardy to any property until LSM sent its thugs to town. Every accusation you have made on this thread is borne out of twisted deceptions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Local matter?

Mansfield is not Cleveland. Cleveland is not Columbus. Detroit is not Mansfield.

So bro awareness, is this a Google Maps doctrine that says if you are thousands of miles away butt out and if you are hundreds of miles away you can takeover and misappropriate local church finances. Since Titus was in Cleveland he can appoint his own elders in Mansfield and Columbus and channel the funding to the charity of his choice?

So then, how do you advise Titus about his adventures in Kampala? Just how far is Cleveland from Kampala?

Drake

What happened to "Nee's doctrine of regional work." Is not the work regional? That's what Nee and Lee taught us. Nothing local about the "work."

The Blendeds never once cared for Mansfield or Columbus. They abandoned Detroit back in the early 70's, ask awareness, he was there.

The work in Kampala began with a family in Cincinnati, that's why TC and Cleveland were supporting that mission work. How is it that the Blendeds can condemn TC for ministering in places around the world, and claim some false authority over what he and the Midwest is allowed to do? Do you own the gospel rights to the African continent?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every church in America with 501.c.4 tax exempt status is required to record offerings. Of course, the elders had access to those records. Go to every single LSM LC in the USA and it is the same. If you don't like that, give cash. But if you gave money, we would refuse it!.

Ohio,

You are generalizing to divert attention from what happened. You want to make it appear that the Titus Chu proxy elders in Columbus wanted to know who gave what so that those who gave could file their tax returns.

Please.

That is not what we are talking about. Those elders wanted to know who gave what so they could, as in Mansfield, understand who was following their direction in the matter of giving and how they were designating their financial offering. Giving has never been a determinant for fellowship. How much and to what is a private matter between the giver and the Lord. No elder has the right to inspect that.

Since you were a treasurer in the local church do venture to educate us of the wisdom of the financial actions the elders in Columbus took...... assuming you know.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How is it that the Blendeds can condemn TC for ministering in places around the world, and claim some false authority over what he and the Midwest is allowed to do?

Provide a statement from the “Blendeds” that makes that claim and we’ll discuss that.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide a statement from the “Blendeds” that makes that claim and we’ll discuss that.

Drake

More rabbit holes.

And you have provided statements from Titus Chu that make your claims?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

You are generalizing to divert attention from what happened. You want to make it appear that the Titus Chu proxy elders in Columbus wanted to know who gave what so that those who gave could file their tax returns.

Please.

That is not what we are talking about. Those elders wanted to know who gave what so they could, as in Mansfield, understand who was following their direction in the matter of giving and how they were designating their financial offering. Giving has never been a determinant for fellowship. How much and to what is a private matter between the giver and the Lord. No elder has the right to inspect that.

Since you were a treasurer in the local church do venture to educate us of the wisdom of the financial actions the elders in Columbus took...... assuming you know.

Drake

Did the elders need canceled checks to know who was disrupting the meetings with their "ohhhhLoooorrrrrGeeeeeeeezus" moanings and gruntings? Seriously?

Let me see how much money LSM and its affiliates have spent on lawsuits and legal fees. Be honest here.

Drake, you keep repeating your 3 talking points about Columbus and Mansfield. You really have no idea what happened there, what LSM has done to divide and destroy those churches, all for base gain and love of filthy lucre. You got your twisted facts third hand from corrupt operatives sent in to steal meeting halls.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did the elders need canceled checks to know who was disrupting the meetings with their "ohhhhLoooorrrrrGeeeeeeeezus" moanings and gruntings? Seriously?

Let me see how much money LSM and its affiliates have spent on lawsuits and legal fees. Be honest here.

Drake, you keep repeating your 3 talking points about Columbus and Mansfield. You really have no idea what happened there, what LSM has done to divide and destroy those churches, all for base gain and love of filthy lucre. You got your twisted facts third hand from corrupt operatives sent in to steal meeting halls.

Provide some facts then. When, where, who.... talking points are what you do. No facts. I have provided specific events with times and places, things that were said. You have not refuted those events because you were long gone before they occurred. If anything you confirmed them. In one instance you said the coworker apologized for trying to publicly provoke a church member in a fit of rage “punch me, come on, you know you want to!”. In another, you said locking saints, including the elderly, out of the meeting hall in the cold was not on purpose. Those as well as all the other events described happened. You know they did or else you have no clue and you just want to pretend you do. After all, your stage name is Ohio so you’re supposedly the expert on all things that happened in Ohio.... or so you claim. So far, you are long in rhetoric and short on facts.

Now, your turn. Alight from your Titus Chu talking points and get specific. Provide specific events, dates, who said what, concerning all this so called LSM meddling to “divide and destroy for filthy lucre” you keep harping on about. Let’s start with Mansfield., then we will overlay the records and see what factually emerges. I suspect you will punt or in typical form, rent your clothes and throw ashes in the air. But we’ll see.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

It was a mid-west problem. That did not make any of it right. As I said, Christ was absent from all parties involved. LSM had no right to step in. Not unless LSM is the headquarters over all local churches, and autonomy of the locality was tossed out of the ground of the locality doctrine.

The whole thing smacks of "The Governing Body" over all of the Kingdom Halls. Same, same.

Awareness,

Since that is dog you brought to this fight then I am looking for consistency.

You are applying “a local matter”, a term normally reserved for the jurisdiction of a local church to a regional work. In so doing, you now have introduced a complication, where does a local matter end? Why not, then call anything in the USA a local matter... local to the country? Your objection was that coworkers who were “thousands” of miles away should not get involved because it is a local matter. I’ll agree with you there was a Midwest problem but I don’t agree with you that thousands of miles is too far and hundreds of miles are okay. Furthermore, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation had the base of operations in Cleveland not plundered and pillaged Mansfield and Columbus. Thankfully, someone heard the cry of precious saints, who decided to take a stand, who had given their lives and livelihoods to those churches. At least, to be consistent, I would have expected you to stand up and cheer them on for resisting the plundering and pillaging of their church.

So, how far is Kampala from Cleveland? A fair distance I think.

Drake

[Kevin]

These LCers have gone too far! Sorry but no sorry Mr. Drake.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

These LCers have gone too far! Sorry but no sorry Mr. Drake.

How so Kevin?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You are applying “a local matter”, a term normally reserved for the jurisdiction of a local church to a regional work. In so doing, you now have introduced a complication, where does a local matter end? Why not, then call anything in the USA a local matter... local to the country?

Drake, you criticize TC for interfering in a "local matter" when he had helped to shepherd the church in Mansfield for literally decades. The first contact LSM ever had with Mansfield was to incite a handful of anti-TC dissidents, some of them long gone ex-members, to disrupt the meetings and subsequently file a lawsuit. Then you justify LSM's interference from 2,000 miles away to a "work" matter.

It's just a game you and LSM has been playing for decades. I have given numerous examples of this, both by Lee and by LSM. I listed the cities of Miami, NYC, Rosemead, Vancouver, Raleigh, Mansfield, Columbus, Toronto. WL did the same thing in Taipei in 1985, firing the elders, and establishing 80 "proxies" illegally. The church in Taipei had run WL out of town in the late 50's over his corrupt business practices.

Here's another pathetic example of the games LSM played. When Philip Lee was molesting the female "interns" at LSM, after daddy Lee had appointed him the "Office Manager," the elders in Anaheim were condemned for both so clled "principles" of locality and regionality. When John Ingalls et.al. approached Benson Philips about it, BP refused to be involved because it was a "local matter." Yet BP worked with LSM for years. When JI et. al. excommunicated Philip, the action was condemned because Philip was part of the ministry work, and not a member of the church in Anaheim. Convenient. Play it both ways. So corrupt.

Drake, you are supposedly the expert on all things LSM, so why did you assist in the coverup of potentially criminal actions? You are right about "lots of complications." The matter will never end until the officers at LSM repent, make reparations, and come clean.

[Ohio]

Drake, read this from a local news report:

Ministry Group Harasses Church (Mansfield, OH)—It was a bizarre Sunday morning for the members of a non-denominational church called ‘The Church in Mansfield.’ A group of people, some ex-members of the church and some from out of state, rose up during the service and announced that they were there to take over the church premises. When church leaders told them to leave, they refused to do so, even after the police were called.

When the group did leave, it pledged to continue a strategy of harassment until the church was driven off of its property. A member of the invasive group publicly revealed that California-based Living Stream Ministry President Benson Phillips had coached them to fight against the church and take its meeting facility. The Living Stream Ministry formally denies controlling any churches or interfering with their operations.

Mansfield church elder David Etzel disagrees, saying, “Of course their claim isn’t true. That’s just what they tell the public. They’re actually pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes and trying to bring churches under their control. This is the fourth incident we’ve had here in less than two years where people loyal to that ministry disrupted church meetings. We want absolutely nothing to do with them or their organization.

I can just hear Benson Philips repeating WL's famous response, "I don't control anyone, I can't even control a mosquito!"

Liars!

.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, how far is Kampala from Cleveland? A fair distance I think.

Drake, if you know the facts here, why do you keep distorting the narrative? You are not an honest broker on this forum.

Read the accurate accounts from the very brother who started the missionary work there.

The History of The Lord's Move in Uganda -- by Keith Miller

Keith R Miller's Refutation of False Accusations Concerning Uganda
.

[Ohio]

Here's a couple news clips concerning the lawsuits in Columbus for the interested readers ...

The LSM "Lazy Swamp Ministry" brought much shame to our Lord's name.

"Suing Church" At It Again In Columbus

.

[Drake]

Ohio>"Drake, you criticize TC for interfering in a "local matter"......"

Stop. I did not. That "local matter" was awareness' position.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, read this from a local news report:

Ministry Group Harasses Church (Mansfield, OH)—It was a bizarre Sunday morning for the members of a non-denominational church called ‘The Church in Mansfield.’ A group of people, some ex-members of the church and some from out of state, rose up during the service and announced that they were there to take over the church premises. When church leaders told them to leave, they refused to do so, even after the police were called.

When the group did leave, it pledged to continue a strategy of harassment until the church was driven off of its property. A member of the invasive group publicly revealed that California-based Living Stream Ministry President Benson Phillips had coached them to fight against the church and take its meeting facility. The Living Stream Ministry formally denies controlling any churches or interfering with their operations.

Mansfield church elder David Etzel disagrees, saying, “Of course their claim isn’t true. That’s just what they tell the public. They’re actually pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes and trying to bring churches under their control. This is the fourth incident we’ve had here in less than two years where people loyal to that ministry disrupted church meetings. We want absolutely nothing to do with them or their organization.

I can just hear Benson Philips repeating WL's famous response, "I don't control anyone, I can't even control a mosquito!"

Liars!

.

When did this happen , the date..... and who was David Etzel appointed by and when?

Facts. Put the facts on the table.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's a couple news clips concerning the lawsuits in Columbus for the interested readers ...

The LSM "Lazy Swamp Ministry" brought much shame to our Lord's name.

"Suing Church" At It Again In Columbus

.

Dates, where are the dates?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

When did this happen , the date..... and who was David Etzel appointed by and when?

Facts. Put the facts on the table.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Dates, where are the dates?

Dates? GPS Coordinates? Reporters? Atomic clock?

Rabbit Holes Indeed.

Check the links yourself.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dates? GPS Coordinates? Reporters? Atomic clock?

Rabbit Holes Indeed.

Check the links yourself.

Simple questions if you know the answers.

What are the dates? and by whom and when was David Etzel appointed as elder in Mansfield?

If you know just answer... if not, you can keep running.

We want your facts... not your spin.

Drake

[Ohio]

Here's a testimony posted by a long time Mansfield sister Suannehill ...

Upon arriving home from Dwight's funeral I find myself with mixed emotions...

The brothers who shared were honest and loving in their testimonies...however...

His wife had requested that due to the large number of people that only seven people speak and she named the seven. This was announced as such and those seven did a touching tribute to our brother...however...

As soon as the final prayer was said...one of the new elders from the LSM side stood to speak...my husband and I stood up and left.

Do the LSMers have no respect at all? It was made clear the families' wishes...yet here they go...they MUST have the last word!

Isn't it enough that they stole 40 years worth of labor from the man? Must they inject themselves into his funeral too? It was the most blatant disrespect I've ever seen at a funeral.

Pardon me, but I am still so bothered within.

This was how every Lord's Table was ruined...the LSMers could not contain themselves!!!!

Dwight built meeting halls all over the Midwest, gave himself to repair and remodel wherever needed. I can't begin to tell you how hard he labored spiritually and physically. He designed and built the Mansfield Meeting Place that is now occupied by LSMers. There is no shame or conscience on their part. The building he built from scratch cannot be used for his funeral dinner.

My husband and I just keep looking at each other and saying how bothered we still are by this. It will go away, but I think of his wife and how betrayed she must feel by ALL of this. We remember her and the rest of his family before the Lord.

Sue

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Simple questions if you know the answers.

What are the dates? and by whom and when was David Etzel appointed as elder in Mansfield?

If you know just answer... if not, you can keep running.

We want your facts... not your spin.

Drake

You don't want facts. You never did. You only use facts to spin the truth.

But thanks for all the blow back. It enables the readers (lurkers) to see the thugs from the Lazy Swamp Ministry in action at some tiny rural church in Ohio while the health of their aged minister slowly deteriorated.

The Lazy Swamp thief comes to steal and kill and destroy, Jesus came that they might have life and may have it abundantly. (John 10.10)

[Sons to Glory!]

This is a lot like watching the Republicans & Democrats. (It also brings to mind a little of the original Star Trek episode where two fellows were eternally fighting. The reason? One was black on the left side and the other was black on the right.)



I read (and reread a few times) a fascinating book by secular author Thomas Sowell called, "A Conflict of Visions." In it he discusses how two parties can have such a fundamentally different vision of everything that it influences how they see everything. This results in the meaning of words changing to them and therefore their vocabulary. This then makes it very difficult to hold a simple discussion with someone who holds the other vision. This vision makes how they see things and the words they use to be almost incomprehensible to someone of the other vision. Unfortunately, this often makes one accuse the other of various things (including hypocrisy), which is at its core, just a difference in the fundamental vision. When one accuses the other, both just dig deeper into their defense of their particular vision, and accuse the other of subterfuge, dishonesty and less than honorable motives.

More talking in this way frequently just results in even less understanding, as both parties start talking past each other completely. Listening with empathy (understanding) goes to zero. You see this very much in American politics today, and also here I think . . .

(How do I stop getting notifications on new postings to this thread? It's too much like watching a train wreck in slow motion.) NEVER MIND. I FIGURED IT OUT.

[Ohio]

Here's a concluding post by Norm. Last I heard he lives in Mansfield.

This will be a final posting related to the lawsuit in Mansfield.

1. After the non-LSM side signed over all assets to the LSM-view side, the lawyers for the LSM-view side wanted to investigate if the non-LSM had placed any of the funds they offered to fight the lawsuit in an account using “the church in Mansfield” name. If so, they wanted those funds reimbursed and turned over to their clients. The non-LSM side lawyers told them to get lost (my wording). The non-LSM side had been smarter than that from the beginning.

2. When the LSM-view side tried to get all the signatures of their supposed members one wife refused to sign. She basically stated that she had never been a member and had been tricked into signing the original lawsuit. The judge had to waive her signature. He had to now know he had been duped by the LSM-view side. Just one refusing and speaking out shows they lied and cheated.

3. The number on the LSM-view side has greatly reduced in their meetings, at least by 50% if not 60% from the number on their original document filed in the court. A large percentage of their membership list was false. Only one of the five new trustees is regular in all the church functions.

4. The final settlement document does contain the signatures of Benson Phillips and Tim Knoppe, permanently linking them to this lawsuit. I wonder why Benson did not refuse to sign and then advise the LSM-view saints to back out of the whole matter.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Awareness,

Since that is dog you brought to this fight then I am looking for consistency.

You are applying “a local matter”, a term normally reserved for the jurisdiction of a local church to a regional work. In so doing, you now have introduced a complication, where does a local matter end? Why not, then call anything in the USA a local matter... local to the country? Your objection was that coworkers who were “thousands” of miles away should not get involved because it is a local matter. I’ll agree with you there was a Midwest problem but I don’t agree with you that thousands of miles is too far and hundreds of miles are okay. Furthermore, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation had the base of operations in Cleveland not plundered and pillaged Mansfield and Columbus. Thankfully, someone heard the cry of precious saints, who decided to take a stand, who had given their lives and livelihoods to those churches. At least, to be consistent, I would have expected you to stand up and cheer them on for resisting the plundering and pillaging of their church.

So call in headquarters? Let the one and only authority on the earth step in ... and join the thievery?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So call in headquarters? Let the one and only authority on the earth step in ... and join the thievery?

Benson Philips, the current president at LSM, the same guy who protected Phillip Lee and covered up for his despicable actions back in the 80's, smeared the reputations of all those who cried for justice for the victims, has his nasty fingerprints (and signature) all over these events in Mansfield.

Drake, when will you grow a backbone and call for BP's resignation and accountability for decades of divisive, un-Christian behavior?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Furthermore, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation had the base of operations in Cleveland not plundered and pillaged Mansfield and Columbus. Thankfully, someone heard the cry of precious saints, who decided to take a stand, who had given their lives and livelihoods to those churches. At least, to be consistent, I would have expected you to stand up and cheer them on for resisting the plundering and pillaging of their church.

So, how far is Kampala from Cleveland? A fair distance I think.

Drake

"Heard the cry of precious saints?" Some were crying "Lee, Lee, give us only Lee!"

"Heard the cry of precious saints?" Some of them were not even meeting with the church in Mansfield. One lady was deceived into signing the petition for the court only to find out later what they did to her.

Drake, you couldn't tell a victim from a perpetrator if your life depended on it. You proved that when you defended that profligate Phillip Lee, and attacked the victims and those who tried to protect them. Today you are doing the same with the victims and perpetrators in Ohio.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You don't want facts. You never did. You only use facts to spin the truth.

But thanks for all the blow back. It enables the readers (lurkers) to see the thugs from the Lazy Swamp Ministry in action at some tiny rural church in Ohio while the health of their aged minister slowly deteriorated.

The Lazy Swamp thief comes to steal and kill and destroy, Jesus came that they might have life and may have it abundantly. (John 10.10)

In other words, you don’t know the dates of the events, you don’t know when and who appointed David Etzel to the eldership in Mansfield, and you are clueless as to the publication date of those newspaper articles.

The only thing you know about Mansfield is what Norm and Suanne wrote in this forum. In other words, talking with you about Mansfield is a complete waste of time.

Got it.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

In other words, you don’t know the dates of the events, you don’t know when and who appointed David Ethel to the eldership in Mansfield, and you are clueless as to the publication date of those newspaper articles.

The only thing you know about Mansfield is what Norm and Suanne wrote in this forum. In other words, talking with you about Mansfield is a complete waste of time.

Got it.

Thanks
Drake

Then what shall other posters consider about talking with you?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then what shall other posters consider about talking with you?

People will think what they want to think. I am just happy to get facts on the table because for years you have strutted about this forum with all bluster about Mansfield and Columbus, a one stop shop for all knowledge about things Midwest, but once the facts are known it is apparent you only know what you read in this forum and are only interested in parroting Titus Chu talking points. For someone who claims to care about the little guy you sure have demonstrated a callous disregard for those who suffered at the heavy hands of proxy elders and the Detroit coworker in Mansfield with financial schemes to extract tithes in exchange for the right to partake of the Lords table and to subsequently divert those offerings to Titus Chus ministry.

Given an opportunity to list the facts about dates and people you reference you did what anyone who doesn’t know about things they purport to know... you punted!

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

People will think what they want to think. I am just happy to get facts on the table because for years you have strutted about this forum with all bluster about Mansfield and Columbus, a one stop shop for all knowledge about things Midwest, but once the facts are known it is apparent you only know what you read in this forum and are only interested in parroting Titus Chu talking points. For someone who claims to care about the little guy you sure have demonstrated a callous disregard for those who suffered at the heavy hands of proxy elders and the Detroit coworker in Mansfield with financial schemes to extract tithes in exchange for the right to partake of the Lords table and to subsequently divert those offerings to Titus Chus ministry.

Given an opportunity to list the facts about dates and people you reference you did what anyone who doesn’t know about things they purport to know... you punted!

Drake

I only know what I read on this forum???

I lived and served in the Midwest Church life for 30 years. I know these people personally. Back in 1976 I helped to build Mansfield's meeting hall. Been there many times since then.

You, however, only know Benson Philip's one page talking points. Only you believe what you have written here, and they truly are not believable.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Drake

Since you were a treasurer in the local church do venture to educate us of the wisdom of the financial actions the elders in Columbus took...... assuming you know.

Since Ohio punted about the financial mismanagement of the Titus appointed proxy elders in Columbus then I will offer these facts.

The saints in the church in Columbus stood on the ground of oneness since 1977. Two properties were acquired and developed by the saints , one on East 15th Ave. and another added in the early eighties that of Sinclair Rd. The saints contributed their lives, livelihoods, and their finances. It is also commendable that the church in Columbus managed their properties very well exercising fiscal prudence and generous giving and loans. That is what went well.

Shortly after Titus Chu appointed 3 elders in Columbus that all changed.

The elders not only took out high interest loans to pay off the low or no interest loans ( from saints) but took out a high interest loan including tens of thousands above the payoff amount. And, no one should be surprised about this, starting in 2002 through 2006 these elders diverted over $140,000 to Titus Chus work WITHOUT the saints knowledge. So, in short they took a fiscally stable situation and turned it into a fiscally risky one even jeopardizing the assets of the church in Columbus.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

The elders not only took out high interest loans to pay off the low or no interest loans ( from saints) but took out a high interest loan including tens of thousands above the payoff amount. And, no one should be surprised about this, starting in 2002 through 2006 these elders diverted over $140,000 to Titus Chus work WITHOUT the saints knowledge. So, in short they took a fiscally stable situation and turned it into a fiscally risky one even jeopardizing the assets of the church in Columbus.

Drake

Who signed for this loan and what did they use as collateral?

This Titus Chu guy does sounds like a questionable guy, from Drake's account, sounds like a real bad dude. This story reminds me of the phone call between Witness Lee and Sal B too, do you think Chu learned his tricks from Witness Lee?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I only know what I read on this forum???

I lived and served in the Midwest Church life for 30 years. I know these people personally. Back in 1976 I helped to build Mansfield's meeting hall. Been there many times since then.

You, however, only know Benson Philip's one page talking points. Only you believe what you have written here, and they truly are not believable.

Well, I’ll change my forum name to “California “ and become the forum expert for all things California.

Visiting a place, helping to build a meeting hall, knowing some folks... it’s all well and good (I’ve done it myself) but you don’t know dates, facts, related to Mansfield.

Sorry Ohio, I’ve assumed you knew something but your inability to provide additional facts, dates, etc. makes it pointless to expect a meaningful contribution from you on this topic. You’ll still contribute, but in your typical MO... carry on.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Who signed for this loan and what did they use as collateral?

The elders appointed by Titus Chu and all the properties at Sinclair Rd.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

The elders appointed by Titus Chu and all the properties at Sinclair Rd.

So all of the elders signed the loan agreement? They used property as collateral that already had a lien against it or were the loans from the saints for something else? Did they finance through a bank?

You said they took out a high interest loan to pay off a low interest loan-then netted a little extra to send to a Titus Chu related fund? All for $10-$20 grand?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

So all of the elders signed the loan agreement? They used property as collateral that already had a lien against it or were the loans from the saints for something else? Did they finance through a bank?

You said they took out a high interest loan to pay off a low interest loan-then netted a little extra to send to a Titus Chu related fund? All for $10-$20 grand?

By 2005 there were a few remaining loans from the saints ... the amount above the loans borrowed was over $34k... also borrowed at the high variable interest rate loan from a bank. In the same year the elders diverted 37% of the offerings from the saints, or over $50k to Titus Chu’s projects.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

By 2005 there were a few remaining loans from the saints ... the amount above the loans borrowed was over $34k... also borrowed at the high variable interest rate loan from a bank. In the same year the elders diverted 37% of the offerings from the saints, or over $50k to Titus Chu’s projects.

Drake

What a shame. Why would all of these elders sign off on that for a measly $34k?

Maybe Ohio knows too, what was the cash position like at that time? The whole thing seems odd.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What a shame. Why would all of these elders sign off on that for a measly $34k?

Maybe Ohio knows too, what was the cash position like at that time? The whole thing seems odd.

Here's the thing. Both in Mansfield and Columbus Titus Chu appointed elders who claimed for themselves " the authority" and all the saints had to obey them. Those who disagreed were told to meet somewhere else. Those who disagreed but refused to leave were excommunicated, locked out of the meeting hall, berated publicly in meetings, etc. Those that remained had to cough up some tithes, do what the elders tell them to do, and expect significant portion of their offering to go to Titus Chu’s work. Once the proxy elders controlled the finances there appeared to be no stopping them.

Some in this forum are fond of criticizing these believers for seeking help from the courts. They say "why not be wronged?" Or "its not christian! "... well, that is easy to say... as long as it is not YOUR house being taken away.Those obedience demanding elders should have been slapped down sooner. They hid their unscriptural heavy handedness behind erroneous teachings..". I'm the authority here now, you must do what I say, you must obey me".... well, apparently not.

Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

By 2005 there were a few remaining loans from the saints ... the amount above the loans borrowed was over $34k... also borrowed at the high variable interest rate loan from a bank. In the same year the elders diverted 37% of the offerings from the saints, or over $50k to Titus Chu’s projects.

Drake

What were TC's projects?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Since Ohio punted about the financial mismanagement of the Titus appointed proxy elders in Columbus then I will offer these facts.

The saints in the church in Columbus stood on the ground of oneness since 1977. Two properties were acquired and developed by the saints , one on East 15th Ave. and another added in the early eighties that of Sinclair Rd. The saints contributed their lives, livelihoods, and their finances. It is also commendable that the church in Columbus managed their properties very well exercising fiscal prudence and generous giving and loans. That is what went well.

Shortly after Titus Chu appointed 3 elders in Columbus that all changed.

The elders not only took out high interest loans to pay off the low or no interest loans ( from saints) but took out a high interest loan including tens of thousands above the payoff amount. And, no one should be surprised about this, starting in 2002 through 2006 these elders diverted over $140,000 to Titus Chus work WITHOUT the saints knowledge. So, in short they took a fiscally stable situation and turned it into a fiscally risky one even jeopardizing the assets of the church in Columbus.

Drake

Once again you twist all your info for evil. I already gave you your source long ago. I told you why he turned on TC. He alone wrote the only personal loan. And by the time these events occurred he was gone ... Only to return to cause much trouble. And to work with BP to seize properties.

And this is your justification for LSM's lawsuits -- one brother's personal offenses? What a shame!

This brother was a user, he used others and he used me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, I’ll change my forum name to “California “ and become the forum expert for all things California.

Visiting a place, helping to build a meeting hall, knowing some folks... it’s all well and good (I’ve done it myself) but you don’t know dates, facts, related to Mansfield.

Sorry Ohio, I’ve assumed you knew something but your inability to provide additional facts, dates, etc. makes it pointless to expect a meaningful contribution from you on this topic. You’ll still contribute, but in your typical MO... carry on.

Drake

You Assumed. You play your games. All the facts in the world cannot justify the evil that was done.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

By 2005 there were a few remaining loans from the saints ... the amount above the loans borrowed was over $34k... also borrowed at the high variable interest rate loan from a bank. In the same year the elders diverted 37% of the offerings from the saints, or over $50k to Titus Chu’s projects.

Drake

Huge mistake for the church to trust that user brother.

User brother used the church as his high interest Savings and Loan, holding the church hostage to his whims. He made far more return on his money than any bank would pay -- and no risk on his loan principal.

User brother brought much curse and damage to the church, all for his own personal gain and glory.

Hi Drake, are you "user" brother?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Here's the thing. Both in Mansfield and Columbus Titus Chu appointed elders who claimed for themselves " the authority" and all the saints had to obey them. Those who disagreed were told to meet somewhere else. Those who disagreed but refused to leave were excommunicated, locked out of the meeting hall, berated publicly in meetings, etc. Those that remained had to cough up some tithes, do what the elders tell them to do, and expect significant portion of their offering to go to Titus Chu’s work. Once the proxy elders controlled the finances there appeared to be no stopping them.

Some in this forum are fond of criticizing these believers for seeking help from the courts. They say "why not be wronged?" Or "its not christian! "... well, that is easy to say... as long as it is not YOUR house being taken away.Those obedience demanding elders should have been slapped down sooner. They hid their unscriptural heavy handedness behind erroneous teachings..". I'm the authority here now, you must do what I say, you must obey me".... well, apparently not.

Drake

It's not us who wrote I Corinthians 6, but since LSMers go by the Book of Lee, it's not in your Bible.

So hypocritical and deceptive that Drake mocks the elders appointed by TC. This forum is filled with Lee's appointment of "proxy" elders and church takeovers, but that's OK if LSM does it, huh Drake. In one post I listed a bunch of cities where this happened. Drake conveniently forgets that Lee fleeced the LCs for useless properties, tennis rackets, cheap suits, motor homes, acres of Expensive SoCal real estate.

TC used money to support workers and their families. To his credit, TC never had one scandal that damaged the Church, personal or otherwise. Compare that to all the financial boondoggles and molested sisters and victims of the Lee family.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Once again you twist all your info for evil. I already gave you your source long ago. I told you why he turned on TC. He alone wrote the only personal loan. And by the time these events occurred he was gone ... Only to return to cause much trouble. And to work with BP to seize properties.

And this is your justification for LSM's lawsuits -- one brother's personal offenses? What a shame!

This brother was a user, he used others and he used me.

Feeling ok?

You are talking somewhat incoherently or in nebulous terms. Why don’t you just say plainly what happened when, with who, how, and why are you being so protective of “user Brother”? Is his name one that is never to be mentioned?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's not us who wrote I Corinthians 6, but since LSMers go by the Book of Lee, it's not in your Bible.

Oh... let me look... nope, you’re wrong ... 1Corinthians 6.. right there between 5 & 7. A wonderful chapter. I wonder if you read it carefully before you go off on your reviling slanderous rants?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Feeling ok?

You are talking somewhat incoherently or in nebulous terms. Why don’t you just say plainly what happened when, with who, how, and why are you being so protective of “user Brother”? Is his name one that is never to be mentioned?

Drake? How many times have you been to Columbus or Mansfield?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh... let me look... nope, you’re wrong ... 1Corinthians 6.. right there between 5 & 7. A wonderful chapter. I wonder if you read it carefully before you go off on your reviling slanderous rants?

No, Drake, the Book of Lee does not contain I Cor chapter 6. That's why you are known as the LawSuit Ministry.

Your motto is "In LawSuits We Trust." Rather, as I often heard, "In Caesar We Trust." You guys make the Pharisees look honest and forthright. Remember when they said, "we have no God but Caesar."

What other ministry on earth has their own in-house Legal Team called the Defense and Confirmation Project, ready and willing to strike their every enemy, including this forum.

Your last lawsuit against another publisher Heritage House, cost the saints $13,000,000.00 and was taken on endless appeals all the way to the SCOTUS. Fortunately those people had enough sense to put your appeal in the trash bin.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What other ministry on earth has their own in-house Legal Team called the Defense and Confirmation Project, ready and willing to strike their every enemy, including this forum.

What?!

You’re paranoid buddy. Irrational. As I mentioned earlier discussing with you events at Mansfield and apparently now Columbus is a waste of time. You have us looking under the bed for “user Brother”, installing deadbolts to keep out DCP, and you put your slander berating hatred for Christian brothers on endless replay on a public boom box. I should have taken my own advice and put you on ignore but I kept thinking since we are discussing events in your neighborhood he should be able to provide something substantive. But you didn’t. Just nebulous inferences like a man who wants to stay relevant yet has no knowledge of the subject but won’t admit it to himself or anyone else ... here is a summary of your prattle to the topic of Mansfield and Columbus.

“ Beware! Watch out! It’s user Brother! A great evil has come in our midst, Drake the duck! His Bible is missing 1 Corinthians 6. He is a Pharisee, a know it all Levite, dont listen to his version of history, it is a very doubtful version, no, wait I mean Drake is lying. All was well in Mansfield and Columbus until those disrupters refused to stop calling His name so we excommunicated them in mass. 20+ at a whack. Shouted them down in meetings. Tested their loyalty. No tithe, no table. If they can’t obey, they can go away, All was well, then along came user Brother, a very bad character like Drake. They are one and the same. Both evil dudes, or one evil dude, or an evil dude and an evil duck. I don’t know for sure.... but I do know they have chapters missing from their Bibles. Liars they are! We have newspaper articles with no dates to prove our point! I’m clever too, did you see all the cute titles I can derive from L S M? I once worked on the meeting hall in Mansfield, what further credentials do you need? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its really user Brother! Get your children in the house! .... Who you gonna believe, a lying evil duck or me, Ohio? Listen to me.... my name is Ohio... doesn’t that tell you something? DCP is coming to get you, user Brother is sneaking up behind you, and that duck, someone rid us of that annoying duck!”



I’ll admit Ohio, is has been entertaining to watch you melt down. But, it’s become a bore and boorish. So, I’ll do now what I should have done awhile back.

Cheers,
Drake

[Ohio]

Refresh my memory Drake. How many times you been to Mansfield?

And tell me again why you are hiding your source, "user."

How am I paranoid when your friends at the LawSuit Ministry sued all the LC's because of that "evil" brother Chu who used to appoint elders? Egads, he appointed elders in LC's! Quarantine him!

And you are right that every LC needs new "deadbolts" to keep out these thugs from the LawSuit Ministry.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What other ministry on earth has their own in-house Legal Team called the Defense and Confirmation Project, ready and willing to strike their every enemy, including this forum.

Originally Posted by Drake

What?!

You’re paranoid buddy. Irrational.

Actually, not to stick my head into the flying bullets here, but on this specific point of Ohio's that you quoted and bolded Drake, Ohio is not paranoid. DCP monitors (and more) this forum. And there is a lot included in that "and more".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Actually, not to stick my head into the flying bullets here, but on this specific point of Ohio's that you quoted and bolded Drake, Ohio is not paranoid. DCP monitors (and more) this forum. And there is a lot included in that "and more".

Feel free to contribute, Trapped. And thanks for the "heads up."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

FYI least, Drake could be on DCP's staff and still answer "no" to the question you posed since you said LSM specifically. On the https://afaithfulword.org/articles/AttacksOnLSM/ portion of the site LSM (or whoever) makes it a point to separate DCP from LSM (see the Direct Falsehoods section, points 3-6, approximately)......even though we all know they are not really separate.

Thanks Trapped. You helped to expose just one of the ways LSM can be deceptive.

Concerning the elders in Columbus and Mansfield. Drake often belittled them as Titus Chu's illegitimate "proxy" elders, but like it or not, TC has appointed elders in the Midwest since the late 60's. Under WL, TC was a recognized apostle, who was responsible for appointing elders. How is this in any way different than WL appointing elders in SoCal or Benson Philips appointing elders in the Texas region? All so-called "regional apostles" did the same thing, going back decades.

WL never once questioned TC's appointments. Rather the newly stated "Blended" brothers, led by Benson Philips, began to discredit him on every front, soon after WL passed in 1997. The Blendeds never were content to serve according to what God put in their hands, and instead plotted to eliminate all perceived rivals, starting with TC's quarantine. Next they quarantined the leader in Brazil.

This matter of appointing elders was just hypocrisy. If the Blendeds did it then it is right. If TC did it then it was wrong. When did TC ever go to other regions or countries and begin to discredit the elders?

What the Blendeds did in the Midwest is no different than what the Judaizers did among the Gentile churches in the New Testament -- stirring up trouble, instigating both Gentile leaders and naughty locals, to attack Paul and the other brothers with him, laboring in the gospel and ministering to build up the churches. Both the Blendeds and the Judaizers were totally outsiders, looking to get a foothold to bring the saints into their fold.