The LCS Factor

[tasteslikegold]

Originally Posted by OBW

The Kingdom is the righteousness of God expressed and displayed. But Lee/RK would have us ignore righteousness and just focus on uber-spirituality by just talking about and being involved in "Christ and the church." I'm not sure that Christ is very involved in that endeavor. At least not the way that Lee/RK/BP/the BBs would like to make it be.

God's righteousness is expressed when we have good family relationships, good work relationships, righteous dealings with our customers, right living as we drive along the highway. His Kingdom comes when there are people living according the the restored position as representatives of God on the earth. Not just in religious meetings having a joyous time popping out of our seats to repeat our "portion" from HWMR or reading from the collected works of Nee and Lee.

I cannot agree with your definition of righteousness nor your characterization of LC meetings. A proper definition of righteousness is "absolute uprightness before God." In terms of the period of the law from Moses until Christ it was related to the keeping of the law. In terms of the church-age, from Christ onward, it is a matter of faith, of believing into Christ (Rom. 4:3; 1:17; 3:22, etc.). Any so-called "righteous behavior" in and of ourselves - even as Christians - is completely insufficient to properly display the kingdom of God. We have to be related to Christ and the church has to be related to Christ. Without regular involvement with Christ - our personal interactions with Him - and without our regular interactions with the Body of Christ, the church, we cannot display the righteousness of God. Not in any way, shape or form. I don't care how "good" you are to your family, friends, co-workers or customers.

As far as your comment regarding the LC meetings is concerned, displaying God's righteousness is not even that. Nor, for that matter is it standing in a Christian "worship meeting" while a band plays a rock version of "Oh My Soul" with your arms up in the air like some kind of spiritual satellite dish.

Pushing your kids aside so you can get to more meetings is the opposite of righteous living.

Which is exactly why we bring our children to the meeting.

But there is one more thing in that brother's statement that is very telling. He is now convinced that "they may not all make it into the church life" and this concerns him. What is he "church life"? Where is this described in the scripture? And what is this "make it" thing about? (John So came to Dallas back in the 70s and asked that very question. "What are you trying to make?" "Make what?") As few times as the word church, assembly or however you want to translate it is used in the NT, I am not aware of any that talk about a "church life." I can find Christ's life. I can find living your life in a manner that is worthy of the gospel. But no "church life."

I feel very sorry for the people who are bound by a need to "make it" when the "it" is something as meaningless as the "church life."

Really? I think that you understand very well what "church life" means. It's simply a term which means "My life related to the church." Do you accept Christendom's terms like "church service" or "Sunday school"? You should know what these terms means pretty well without criticizing them, right? What about when someone talks about "my ministry" or when someone says "going to church." Do you criticize them by saying, "The Bible never uses the terms 'my ministry' and it never says 'going to church'"? Do you label these terms meaningless as well?

Doubtful.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by tasteslikegold

Why should we "get over" the terminology if it happens to work for us?

The reason you should get over the "terminology" addiction is because IT IS NOT WORKING, and Witness Lee already knew that this would be the outcome, way back in 1983.

Below is the prophesy that he spoke to all of the Elders back then. And there is no denying that it has come to pass exactly as WL predicted!

''THE TWO PERILS''
Witness Lee's Emphatic and Prescient Warning to the Elders
"If we are not in the focus and if we do not experience what we preach to others, we face two perils. One, sooner or later there will be divisions. Two, if we don't practice the focal points, the saints have no way to practice them. The things we teach will eventually become doctrines in the Lord's recovery. There will be no reality. The recovery will be just empty. Then in the sphere of the so-called recovery there will be divisions and emptiness... The only thing that can keep the Lord's recovery full of reality is to practice what we now preach and teach and to help the saints in every locality to practice the same thing." "If we expect an increase either by evangelism or by the spreading of the doctrines we teach, we shall surely face these two perils... To care for the spread of our work is dangerous. It will produce different works to build up different ministries. Then division will result. We can foresee this. Furthermore, if we don't pay full attention to practice these things in our daily life and to bring all the saints in our local church into these practices in their daily life, the churches will be empty. I am fearful and trembling of these two perils: the peril of different works being produced to cause division and the peril of emptiness. We will have the ground of one church, one city, and we will have the scriptural teachings, yet there will be no real experience of Christ in our daily life... And if we don't practice the focal things experientially, spontaneously we will fall into the snare of emptiness. We may boast that our teachings are scriptural, that we don't have forms, rituals, or organization. It may be true that we don't have these things, but we don't have the reality either. What we have is just emptiness. This is quite serious, brothers. We have to be alerted to stay in the central lane, practicing all the focal things ourselves daily. We must also be burdened to help the saints in our locality practice these things, to grow in life that they might be genuinely and practically built up in the Trinity."
( Practical Talks to the Elders #4, Pages 62-63, by Witness Lee, on March 14, 1983, in Anaheim CA - Living Stream Ministry)

Recommended Remedial Materials - by Arthur Katz :

''What If'' (Are We Deceived?) Message Related FTTA Outline HYMN 426

P.S.

[tasteslikegold]

Again, you are correct. These same two points motivated me to expose Ron Kangas' false teaching regarding the foundational Priorities for Parents in the local churches. This angers the Lord Jesus Christ greatly and it must be brought out into the light and dealt with.

A teaching that is "false" can be quantified. Please cite by way of your apparent vast collection of recordings the instance where Ron Kangas contradicted or taught falsely regarding the "foundational priorities for parents in the local churches." Also, I would like to hear or receive textual transcription of messages in which Witness Le specifically addressed what the "foundational priorities for parents in the local churches" are. PLease outline them for me here.

Thank you.

[tasteslikegold]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

The reason you should get over the "terminology" addiction is because IT IS NOT WORKING, and Witness Lee already knew that this would be the outcome, way back in 1983.

Below is the prophesy that he spoke to all of the Elders back then. And there is no denying that it has come to pass exactly as WL predicted!

''THE TWO PERILS''
Witness Lee's Emphatic and Prescient Warning to the Elders
"If we are not in the focus and if we do not experience what we preach to others, we face two perils. One, sooner or later there will be divisions. Two, if we don't practice the focal points, the saints have no way to practice them. The things we teach will eventually become doctrines in the Lord's recovery. There will be no reality. The recovery will be just empty. Then in the sphere of the so-called recovery there will be divisions and emptiness... The only thing that can keep the Lord's recovery full of reality is to practice what we now preach and teach and to help the saints in every locality to practice the same thing." "If we expect an increase either by evangelism or by the spreading of the doctrines we teach, we shall surely face these two perils... To care for the spread of our work is dangerous. It will produce different works to build up different ministries. Then division will result. We can foresee this. Furthermore, if we don't pay full attention to practice these things in our daily life and to bring all the saints in our local church into these practices in their daily life, the churches will be empty. I am fearful and trembling of these two perils: the peril of different works being produced to cause division and the peril of emptiness. We will have the ground of one church, one city, and we will have the scriptural teachings, yet there will be no real experience of Christ in our daily life... And if we don't practice the focal things experientially, spontaneously we will fall into the snare of emptiness. We may boast that our teachings are scriptural, that we don't have forms, rituals, or organization. It may be true that we don't have these things, but we don't have the reality either. What we have is just emptiness. This is quite serious, brothers. We have to be alerted to stay in the central lane, practicing all the focal things ourselves daily. We must also be burdened to help the saints in our locality practice these things, to grow in life that they might be genuinely and practically built up in the Trinity."
( Practical Talks to the Elders #4, Pages 62-63, by Witness Lee, on March 14, 1983, in Anaheim CA - Living Stream Ministry)

Recommended Remedial Materials - by Arthur Katz :

''What If'' (Are We Deceived?) Message Related FTTA Outline HYMN 426

P.S.

This has nothing to do with terminology in the least. This has to do with having the same living as that which we preach.

Much different that what OBW mentioned.


Try again.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by tasteslikegold

This has nothing to do with terminology in the least. This has to do with having the same living as that which we preach.

Much different that what OBW mentioned.


Try again.

Ok, then try listening to the first 10min of this message - it examines false reliance upon spiritual terminology in great detail:

''What If'' (Are We Deceived?) Message Related FTTA Outline HYMN 426

P.S.

[tasteslikegold]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Ok, then try listening to the first 10min of this message - it examines false reliance upon spiritual terminology in great detail:

''What If'' (Are We Deceived?) Message Related FTTA Outline HYMN 426

P.S.

What in the world does Art Katz have to do with the Lord's Recovery? You are relating two entirely different messages here.

Sorry, I just don't "get" how your prior post, in which you cite a so-called "prophesy" by Witness Lee, is related to the audio of Art Katz, and the outline you linked, which is not at all related to Katz's message.

Arthur Katz was not at any time connected with the Lord's Recovery. Furthermore, what is perhaps the most damaging of Katz was his rhetorical criticism of Christianity in general (In fact, often his messages were in tone much harsher than Witness Lee's), and more startling, his apparent avocation of "replacement theology." Ironic, since he was raised a Jew.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by tasteslikegold

What in the world does Art Katz have to do with the Lord's Recovery? You are relating two entirely different messages here.

Ok, you are right - I should have instead asked you to take a closer look at the Witness Lee Prophesy first, then, maybe go on and listen to what the Lord spoke through Katz.

So, please, instead, watch this short video [3min] of Witness Lee [Nov 1996] in which he focuses on the worsening problem of Terminology Addiction - even an intolerable addiction to his very own "High Peak Truths".

I am fearful and trembling of these two perils: the peril of different works being produced to cause division and the peril of emptiness.

BTW, In some ways [purity of leaders raised up] I think Art Katz did a much better job of implementing the ministry of Watchman Nee than Lee ever did.

P.S.

[tasteslikegold]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Ok, you are right - I should have instead asked you to take a closer look at the Witness Lee Prophesy first, then, maybe go on and listen to what the Lord spoke through Katz.

So, please, instead, watch this short video [3min] of Witness Lee [Nov 1996] in which he focuses on the worsening problem of Terminology Addiction - even an intolerable addiction to his very own "High Peak Truths".

I am fearful and trembling of these two perils: the peril of different works being produced to cause division and the peril of emptiness.

BTW, In some ways [purity of leaders raised up] I think Art Katz did a much better job of implementing the ministry of Watchman Nee than Lee ever did.

P.S.

What?

Art Katz had nothing at all to do with Watchman Nee.

[OBW]

I will respond to tasteslikegold’s post #1334 in this series in multiple posts to shorten each one. Before I start, since I am doing the drafting off-line, I am somewhat crippled in format in that the imbedded portions of TLG’s post that had bolding or other special formatting are typically lost when copying back into the forum. I will try to find and reset each part to its original, but make no promises that I will be consistent or successful at all.

Originally Posted by tasteslikegold

Well first, I didn't create a straw man from your argument. You did, however, write that "God's righteousness is expressed when we have good family relationships, good work relationships, righteous dealings with our customers, right living as we drive along the highway. You would agree that simply having "good relationships" and "right living" outside the influence of Christ is not sufficient in displaying the kingdom, right? To me saying, "good relationships" is the same as saying "crank it out on our own." The best we have is "goodness" in ourselves.

With respect to “cranking it out on our own” I agree that this is not the Kingdom. While you may not have intended to make a strawman argument, it is your presumption that I meant something that I did not say that lead to your error. While we will get to terminology in another post, you would seem to have transferred “goodness” from something that exudes from God and can only be truly achieved through Him into something human and fallen. And even if “goodness” is only used as an impartial adjective to describe the actual actions, it makes no automatic presumption about how those actions came to be. That presumption was entirely on your part. Given the rest of my context, it is hard to claim that I meant to simply grind it out.

There is your strawman, whether you intended it or not.

Read what I write, not what the LC lexicon says I mean by it.