God became man that man might become God

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Timelord

Somehow you missed that teaching on the God-men. T. Neil Duddy put out his book against Lee called “The God-men” in 1977, and an updated edition in 1981.

Another red flag to your level of "balance" in this discussion. You know too much to be so non-partisan.

[Timelord]

OBW

For someone who promotes discussion, you make a lot of assumptions. It is clear here and on the other thread. I’m not what you assume me to be, and what I say you seem intent on not understanding. The only “red flag” that I see is the one you keep holding up. If you want me to leave the forum, then just come out and say so.

Timelord

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

Another red flag to your level of "balance" in this discussion. You know too much to be so non-partisan.

There is no requirement for posters to keep any particular "level of balance" on this forum, at least not in the sense that I think OBW is saying. Now, we are within the "apologetics" board so I would expect everybody to be somewhat restricted to discussions in this area. I don't think that Timelord has made any claim to be a "non-partisan", and even if he did, lets let his propositions, contentions and arguments stand or fall on their merits alone.

One of the few "rules" of this forum is not to engage is deception or subterfuge, with the spirit of the law being "say what you mean and mean what you say". I don't see where Timelord has violated the letter or even the spirit of the law here. But hey, lot's of things get past me, so everybody is more then free to send me a PM, or if they are really upset about a particular post then hit that triangle thingie at the bottom to "report" the post.

In any event I think we owe it to Oregon, the other members and any lurkers out there to maybe go back and re-read his opening post - it's a dandy, and it's worth a lot of consideration, discussion and yes, even argument. (the good kind)

Now, like so many of Witness Lee's teachings, back in the day he would not always come right out and state something in a plain and clear way. Many times it was a matter of "in so many words". Also, Lee was a man of great exaggeration and repetition - it was simply his method to the madness. Many of you oldies but goodies out there know exactly what I am saying here.

OBW wondered out loud:

Originally Posted by OBW

Or was it an undercurrent in those earlier days that, like Lee not accepting being called an apostle, would eventually be cast aside and the "truth" that he really was The Apostle would become taught? Did this "man becoming God" teaching become stronger over time, taking center stage later on?

There were tons and tons of "truths that really were" in the Local Church, and this "God becoming man so that man could become God" concept is just one of many. Looking back, I think we all knew deep down inside that we were not becoming God. We knew it, Witness Lee knew it, other Christians knew it, and God most certainly knew it. But Lee taught, and we all repeated many things back in those days. Now, with the blended brothers it seems they have set some of these teachings in concrete - something that I don't know if even Witness Lee would have done.

[Timelord]

UntoHim

Your mediating voice is welcome, to me at least.

A friend knew of my experience with the LC, and that I seemed to be able to intuitively see what the Bible actually says about many of the extreme positions of Witness Lee. He assumed that I could help former members of the LC to see that the Bible has a different position regarding some things that Lee said and regarding some of the overreactions of the former members of the LC to the teachings of Lee. He told me to check out both the board on the Berean forum and this forum that include predominately former members of the LC.

Unfortunately, there are those in these two locations that have reacted so much to Lee that if one’s position even mentions any thing close to what Lee believes, then the position is the position of Lee. Thus the reaction of OBW to what I have said on this forum. And Aron seems to have simply vanished. Strange since he was the one who started the first thread that I went on. It seemed to me that what the Bible says on the churches was a logical place to begin sharing about what the Bible says about the teachings of the LC, given Lee’s emphasis on the matter.

I knew nothing of either of these forums until my friend told me about them and that they were related to former members of the LC. I am not a member of the LC. I discount much of what Lee says as an extreme position that is not according to the Bible. I believe that was clearly stated in my posts. Apparently OBW was blind to that. And for some reason he wanted to emphasize the Mat 16:18 thing over the actual purpose of a thread on the churches. OBW doesn’t think that I could have possibly learned anything in the six months that I was actively engaged with the LC. I am a college kid and a voracious reader. And he apparently doesn’t think that I know how to use the internet, which is where I found something more exact about the God-men book than what I had heard about from one of the LC members. And he apparently thinks that it is impossible that I have had great help in growing in the Christian faith by people who know the Bible better than me, and far better than most on these forums.

If one asks questions in a judicious manner of the members of the LC, they are often very forthcoming about what they believe to be their own history and beliefs. I haven’t spent almost four years in college without learning how to ask judicious questions. What is sad is that apparently many of the former members of the LC must be treated with the same kid gloves as so many in the LC and the professors in college.

This will be my last post with these former members. I can see that most are little Witness Lee’s attempting to understand the Bible in the same way that he did, by interpreting the Bible so that it means to them according to their own preconceived ideas. And for those who continue in that manner, they will be ever searching for the truth without ever finding it. And I really don’t have time to share with people who only believe in the Bible insofar as it agrees with their own “vision”. College takes up a lot of my time. And I know too many people with whom I can share without that kind of aggravation.

My friend thought that former members of the LC would be more ready to see what the Bible actually says having already experienced the extreme position of the LC. That is of course impossible with people who are in a state of reaction, especially overreaction as with some of these people. I do not blame my friend. He had no way of knowing that such an extreme position as the LC would breed overreactions equal to that position. I on the other hand should have seen what was going on immediately, and I think that I did to some degree. Just not enough to keep me from coming on this forum in the first place.

I feel sorry for these particular former members of the LC. But I feel more for those who are much closer to me. Perhaps our Lord put these particular former members of the LC together for a purpose. What that purpose is I do not know. Another reason why I see no reason to continue on here. I only hope that they will learn to help one another instead of continuing to have fruitless discussions. And maybe they are helping one another in their own way. I hope so.

sister Carol

Concerning your two posts on the LCS factor thread, I must say, Amen.

It is good to hear from one who is content in the state that she is in and looks to Jesus alone for any change in that state that might occur. The lack of contentment is, I believe, a major reason for so many marital problems. That may account for so many saying that their split was over money. They do not realize that they make marriage seem like a bad thing. I am so thankful that among those who I fellowship with, this kind of thing is not common. The majority are content whether single or married. For me, marriage has such good potential for helping one another in the good and the bad times. But perhaps I am prejudiced. My fiancé, Lori, and I are best friends and we have been helping each other for years. We are blessed to have met in high school. We have agreed to marry in three years when we both will be through with college. And we have agreed that best friends is what we will always be in the Lord. We may not yet be married, but we both feel that we are already well on the way to oneness.

And we really appreciate how you are using Satan’s holiday against him. Lori and I have just been discussing this and we have agreed to start doing something like this, not only in relation to this holiday, but in relation to Christmas and Easter too. Children are involved in those holidays as well. And using cards or some such thing is natural in all three situations. So thank you for the idea.

Timelord

[countmeworthy]

Thank YOU Timelord for your kind, encouraging words to me.

Yes...there are some who are ADAMANTLY bitter towards Witness Lee and his ministry. They refuse to allow themselves to admit they were helped and had wonderful fellowship and blessings there at one time. And if they do, they don't dwell on it. They prefer to tear everything about the LC down... EVERYTHING. They look for any positive moment to turn it into a negative.

But everyone's experience is different. I did not have a BAD experience in my tenure from 1975-78/79. Did I go through spiritual bootcamp as I look to put it. YES !!! But that was my training ground to build me up into the person I am in Christ Jesus today. I am forever grateful for my time there.

However, for me to use the training tools I was given, I like to say, I had to go to the battlefield and the wilderness and had to by leaving bootcamp.

I never regarded Brother Lee as my spiritual 'father' while I did enjoy reading the life study messages. I loved/love my spiritual father in San Diego, John Smith who truly took care of the flock there...he, his wife Sonia and the church in San Diego were wonderful...at least they were to me.

I do not read Lee's works anymore but I do read Watchman Nee's...(and others). But mostly I am trying to read the WORD of GOD more. Enough messages/books/CD teachings/DVD teachings. We need to get back to the WORD of GOD for ourselves. Spend time reading/meditating and being enlightened by the Holy Spirit for He is the One Who reveals Christ in US, the HOPE of GLORY.

Oh...and Aaron is Alan on the other forum btw.

And P.S.
If you and Lori remain best friends throughout your marriage with Christ being numero UNO in both of your lives, you will have an Anointed and Blessed marriage for sure !

Originally Posted by Timelord

sister Carol

Concerning your two posts on the LCS factor thread, I must say, Amen.

It is good to hear from one who is content in the state that she is in and looks to Jesus alone for any change in that state that might occur. The lack of contentment is, I believe, a major reason for so many marital problems. That may account for so many saying that their split was over money. They do not realize that they make marriage seem like a bad thing. I am so thankful that among those who I fellowship with, this kind of thing is not common. The majority are content whether single or married. For me, marriage has such good potential for helping one another in the good and the bad times. But perhaps I am prejudiced. My fiancé, Lori, and I are best friends and we have been helping each other for years. We are blessed to have met in high school. We have agreed to marry in three years when we both will be through with college. And we have agreed that best friends is what we will always be in the Lord. We may not yet be married, but we both feel that we are already well on the way to oneness.

And we really appreciate how you are using Satan’s holiday against him. Lori and I have just been discussing this and we have agreed to start doing something like this, not only in relation to this holiday, but in relation to Christmas and Easter too. Children are involved in those holidays as well. And using cards or some such thing is natural in all three situations. So thank you for the idea.

Timelord

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Oh...and Aaron is Alan on the other forum btw.

cmw,

I like changing my names as I make the "jump" in cyberspace. It's a Star Trek thing.

I think TimeLord is an excellent writer. Very well put together for "a college kid". But I didn't have anything to say to him. He'll do fine without my input.

He said I was "negatively obsessed"; which might have a grain of truth, so I took it as an admonition from the Lord. Any posters on a site about Lee & the Local Churches might be seen to be so tinged with "negativity".

I have tried to be positive. Both my experiences in the Local Churches and my subsequent experiences of Christ have been very positive to me. I disagree with some of their doctrines & practices, of course, but I guess we all are different in some ways. But anyway, I took Timelord's comments as "from the Lord"; it's the safe thing to do I guess. I'm trying not to become negative.

I would like to think that I am positively obsessed. My role model in this is the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4. She ran around to everyone, saying, "Come and see! This man told me everything I have done -- is this not the Christ?"

I feel positively "focused" on a couple of things which I've uncovered in the last couple of years, and which I try to share with everyone. The first is about the apostle John, what he "saw" there on the island of Patmos. To me it opens the whole NT, and makes sense of subsequent christian history. The Revelation of John became the lens for me to view events in the OT, in the Gospels and Acts and Epistles. And suddenly everything "made sense" to me. I tried to share the gist of this idea. But I don't expect Timelord or anyone to read my 400+ posts and make sense of the story!!

The second thing I've seen, and I uncovered it on this forum, is the idea of the "ekklesia" being translated as what we in the local churches would call a "meeting". The ekklesia is the assembly, the gathering together of the called-out ones. Any 2 or 3 gathered in the Lord's name, blessed with His presence, is qualified as an "ekklesia". I can guarantee you this changed my spiritual life. When meeting with others, instead of trying to recruit them to some group, I just have "ekklesia" with them. We gather and thank and praise the Lord; we bless and extol the virtues of the One who was and is and is coming; we encourage and strengthen each other's faith. And we can "feel" God's building work in us. Amazing.

Anyway I appreciated Timelord's comments immensely but didn't have the capacity to add something of value. Glad you were able to connect.

Peace & grace, as always. I always love your judicious use of CAPITAL letters. I get a charge every time I read your posts.

[countmeworthy]

CMW,I always love your judicious use of CAPITAL letters. I get a charge every time I read your posts.

Why Thank You. Perhaps because like you, I am 'positively obsessed' with the WORD of GOD-Jesus ! So us birds of a feather, simply flock together.

I have not been reading the forums much. I have been 'positively charged' in ministering/discipling/fellowshipping/praying/reading the Word of God with my friends.

The LORD JEHOVAH is such a wonderful GOD and how blessed and highly FAVORED we are to be in His Kingdom, to be sons of God and kings and priests unto HIM. Sometimes when I get attacked, I look at the enemy and tell him...look here you ugly devil. Don't mess with me. I'm the daughter of the most HIGH GOD...the One who created you and if He wants to all He has to do is speak a word to you and you will have not only no power but he could eradicate you forever if HE wishes. He could do it right now, this second. But He is waiting for that DAY to execute your judgment and if I were you I'd scurry out of here in trembling with much fear for the GREAT DAY OF THE LORD is at hand !

I like changing my names as I make the "jump" in cyberspace. It's a Star Trek thing.

And I say: BEAM US UP LORD JESUS ! BEAM US UP ! I know you like changing your name but I was not sure TimeLord knew this or not.

My role model in this is the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4. She ran around to everyone, saying, "Come and see! This man told me everything I have done -- is this not the Christ?"

I LOVE the story of the Samaritan woman ! I must 'confess' I loved the explanation in the Life Study of John on the Samaritan woman. It helped me understand how people indeed are not satisfied with the things of this world. It holds true even today. All we need to do is LOOK at how quickly everything in Technology is churning and being spit out ! They barely come out with some I-POD gadget and before you know it they have the I-POD Excel 4.0 super turbo...or some nonsensical sensation ! And the hoards of people can't hardly wait to get to the store at midnight when it is going to go on sale !

Aww...if only they knew that JESUS, our Precious, Sweet LORD JESUS is the living water that forever satisfies our thirst. When we say LORD JESUS....we say it all.

...things which I've uncovered in the last couple of years, and which I try to share with everyone. The first is about the apostle John, what he "saw" there on the island of Patmos. ..... I tried to share the gist of this idea. But I don't expect Timelord or anyone to read my 400+ posts and make sense of the story!!

Read 400 posts to make sense of the story!! Is it possible to condense it into ONE LONG Post ? I have been studying Revelation for some time now but it goes hand in hand with Daniel and Ezekiel & 1 Thessalonians 4 and many other books...OH...not leaving out EXODUS... Genesis and Exodus are also connected to the book of Revelation. Isn't it wonderful how the LORD reveals His secrets to His servants ?

The second thing I've seen, and I uncovered it on this forum, is the idea of the "ekklesia" being translated as what we in the local churches would call a "meeting". The ekklesia is the assembly, the gathering together of the called-out ones. Any 2 or 3 gathered in the Lord's name, blessed with His presence, is qualified as an "ekklesia". I can guarantee you this changed my spiritual life.

Mine too !!! I don't know what 'locality' you were in when in the LC and for how long and what years. I was in San Diego from 75'-79 approx. It was overall a very good church life filled with 'young people' in their 20s. I got saved through the brethren there and it was my spiritual training ground...I'm sure you know my story as I have shared it time and time again.

Well.....in the past few months, my friends have been bringing up some questions about.....our spirit...our human spirit. I began explaining it to them and so I pulled out 'The Release of the Spirit' by Nee. Can you believe how that book has helped my one friend who is reading it right now. She thanks me profusely for the encouragement I've given her. Then last night, we listened to a Psalms song CD which used to be a reel to reel tape. It was made in 1975 possibly Dallas but I have an old San Diego friend who thinks it may have been made in San Diego. I think it was made in Dallas and later San Diego made another one. You might remember many of the Psalms we sang back in the 70s if you were in the 'church life' back then.

She jumped for joy when I played it. We spontaneously began to sing the Psalms together. I have seen some threads on 'Oneness'. My friend and I have been experiencing 'oneness' in Christ for a few weeks now. And you know what ? This is almost scary.....but TRUE. I have been drilling into her scriptures about walking in spirit...and all the scriptures we learned about our human spirit that is ONE with the Holy, Life Giving Spirit. She told me yesterday she FINALLY understands why she has struggled with sin and the world for the last 20 years. She prayed last night or this morning after reading the chapters on Brokenness in Nee's book on releasing the spirit at her house. She prayed for the Lord to break her soul so her spirit could be released because the book gave her soo much insight and revelation and understanding all her struggles as a Christian. I did not push her to do anything. I simply offered her to read the book since SHE was asking me all kinds of questions.

I want her to be strong in the LORD and in His Word that she might be used mightily for the Kingdom, to the Glory of GOD ALMIGHTY, shaming the devil and his minions. I'm teaching her to walk in her position as a king and priest unto the Most High God that she might reflect as in a mirror the GLORY of the LORD so that her family and friends will see the NEW Creation in her..out with the old...in with NEWNESS of LIFE in Christ Jesus ! But I'm not pushing 'church'...except to explain how WE, the anointed believers in Christ are the church. Where ever we are we are meeting as the church. We were in the hospital at her father's bedside playing the Psalm music CD.

When meeting with others, instead of trying to recruit them to some group, I just have "ekklesia" with them. We gather and thank and praise the Lord; we bless and extol the virtues of the One who was and is and is coming; we encourage and strengthen each other's faith. And we can "feel" God's building work in us. Amazing

IT IS Brother Alan/Aron !! It is AMAZING !! Oh...Amazing Grace ...how sweet the sound, huh ? (I've used up all my smilies so I can't insert any, anymore. ARRGH !!) I HATE recruiting people into some group. We are called to recruit people to Jesus and to disciple them that they would in turn would grow strong and bring others to Jesus and disciple them. Didn't Jesus say go out and disciple the nations ? I don't recall reading recruit them into an organization or a group. BUT I do believe we, at least I received true revelation of the church and the body of Christ through the ministry we were under...Nee's teachings and of course Lee's. Sadly something went awry. Still what Satan meant for evil, GOD will as He always does turn it to good.

God is UP to something awesome !! Of course, I think the Father is getting ready to RELEASE His Son Jesus that He might descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the Archangel and with the TRUMP...so that the dead in Christ will rise first and then WE who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the Air. We are getting ready to meet our Bridegroom - KING JESUS !!! Come Lord Jesus ! Come TODAY...don't Delay !

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I'm not pushing 'church'...except to explain how WE, the anointed believers in Christ are the church. Where ever we are we are meeting as the church. We were in the hospital at her father's bedside playing the Psalm music CD.

You made my day. Like Paul said, "I am with you in spirit".