Poor, poor Christianity...

[zeek]

The word church is a translation of the Greek word εκκλησια which according to Strong's Concordance is formed from the word ek, "out from and to" and kaléō, "to call" – "properly, people called out from the world and to God." Thus, the churches already consist of those who have been called out. You seem to be suggesting that the Bible teaches that God calls people out of the "called out". That would mean that God calls people out of the church or at least a church or some churches. I haven't seen that. Do you have any evidence for that claim other than what you cited below because, like I said, that seemed to be mistaken.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The word church is a translation of the Greek word εκκλησια which according to Strong's Concordance is formed from the word ek, "out from and to" and kaléō, "to call" – "properly, people called out from the world and to God." Thus, the churches already consist of those who have been called out. You seem to be suggesting that the Bible teaches that God calls people out of the "called out". That would mean that God calls people out of the church or at least a church or some churches. I haven't seen that. Do you have any evidence for that claim other than what you cited below because, like I said, that seemed to be mistaken.

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The path of faith is to be called out. We should not assume that it is a one stop. Every single one of us in the church has been "called out". Perhaps you were born into the LRC, but I was not. I had no problem believing I had been called out of the Episcopalian church to meet with the saints. Now that I have left the LRC why is it hard to believe I got called out of that situation as well. Being called out is who we are. If you are following the Lord then He called you out, that is my testimony. If you are not following the Lord that is a different issue.

For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification.

It would be nice if we could "overcome" the uncleanness in the LRC. We couldn't. That may be our failure or it might be God's plan. But I was called out, not for uncleanness, but in sanctification". Therefore I have no issue with realizing I had been called out of the Episcopalian church and also out of the LRC.

13Let us therefore go forth unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Not my interpretation, the black and white word. No doubt at the time of Peter meeting with the early Christians involved going forth without the camp. But today it is clear that established Christianity is the camp.

But now they desire a better country

This is the characteristic of all who are men of faith. No reason to deny it or be ashamed of it.

to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion

to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion

Our Jewish brothers were called out, after having been in "God's move on Earth". Why do we think that does not apply to us?

And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church which was in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

OK, of course it does apply to us.

Both the crossing the Red Sea and Noah’s ark are types of baptism. In both cases we were called out.

It applies to everyone baptized into Christ. But when we get to the church in Philadelphia we will "go out no more"

However, if you do not understand this verse in Philadelphia this way then you have to explain what it means for overcomers to have 'gone out of the temple of God', you haven't. If it is referring to the spiritual church then why aren't they backsliders, not overcomers? Everyone seeking a better country, being called out and not knowing where they are going, the ones crossing the red sea or riding in Noah's ark, they were not backsliders but to arrive at that better city they had to go out.

[Evangelical]

I can understand this interpretation, but it means little without a solid definition of the church.

A genuine church is a local church (church in Ephesus, church in Corinth etc). Geography is the only thing that should separate believers.
Each genuine local church in Revelation symbolizes a particular condition of the genuine church. So one church in one city may be Sardis, and another may be Ephesus, it depends on their condition.
Jesus never told anyone to come out of these churches, but to overcome - "to him who overcomes". If we stand as a local church, then our job is to overcome the degradation in our church. It is not possible to leave a local church unless we change our geographical location.
But if we stand as a denomination, then the call is to come out of her. The old Reformers saw the Roman Catholic church as Babylon. Later, these reformed churches became Babylon when they became worldly and denominationalized. Babylon is the false church, or worldly church system.

Simply, it reduces to this:
If we are in a local church (a local church is one which has the locality as its identity), we overcome.
If we are in Babylon (a church which does not have locality as its identity), we leave.

Notice that I have defined Babylon not by its condition but by its identity. That is, suppose the Episcopalian church did not incorporate Beyonce into the church services, suppose they were 100% biblical to the letter. They are still Babylon because they are defined by Episcoplainism or the English Monarchy (historically), which is a worldly mixture.

In the time when Revelation was written, maybe there was a sect in Sardis for example which was more perfect than the church in Sardis. This sect called itself "Sardiscopalian", and their head was the Roman Emperor because the Roman Emperor thought he was the God-appointed head of the church in his country (just as the English monarchs thought the same and established the Church of England).
But they are not a genuine church because they are not local and do not have a lampstand. So they are Babylon.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A genuine church is a local church (church in Ephesus, church in Corinth etc). Geography is the only thing that should separate believers.

Brother EvanG I guess it's safe to say that you a one church one city kinda guy.

But surely you have to admit that it's not a dogma developed anywhere in the New Testament.

I guess there's no harm in zealotry for it, but it is a zealotry not found anywhere in the scriptures, or it would have been expounded clearly and precisely.

Nee and Lee made more of it than scripture does. They turned it into an extra-Biblical dogma. It's a way of saying, "We're the true church, and every other is not." It's not unifying, as I first envisioned it, but is divisive.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother EvanG I guess it's safe to say that you a one church one city kinda guy.
But surely you have to admit that it's not a dogma developed anywhere in the New Testament.
I guess there's no harm in zealotry for it, but it is a zealotry not found anywhere in the scriptures, or it would have been expounded clearly and precisely.
Nee and Lee made more of it than scripture does. They turned it into an extra-Biblical dogma. It's a way of saying, "We're the true church, and every other is not." It's not unifying, as I first envisioned it, but is divisive.

You are confusing dividing with leaving. For example, if I get out of my car, I am leaving my car, I am not dividing from my car. And after getting out of my car, if I see another car, me leaving my car did not cause the other car to appear nor was another car created. I did not cause "another car" just because I left my car and am now looking at it. Similarly, once you leave division you are no longer in division or divisive, you have left. And you have not caused "another division" by leaving a division.

Denominations are divisions because the word denominate has the same root word as denominator in fractions which means to divide.

This is very simple to understand I don't know why so many struggle with it.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are confusing dividing with leaving. For example, if I get out of my car, I am leaving my car, I am not dividing from my car. And after getting out of my car, if I see another car, me leaving my car did not cause the other car to appear nor was another car created. I did not cause "another car" just because I left my car and am now looking at it. Similarly, once you leave division you are no longer in division or divisive, you have left. And you have not caused "another division" by leaving a division.

Denominations are divisions because the word denominate has the same root word as denominator in fractions which means to divide.

This is very simple to understand I don't know why so many struggle with it.

Evangelical....you pretend the sordid practice of dividing from christians is not the modus operandi of the Lee church. I was divided from the saints in my locality by them. I would never have voluntarily shunned, cold-shouldered, or divided from them of my own accord...they were friends and I loved them. We belong together in the fellowship of Christ...this division was against my ill and choosing for the body of Christ, of Whom we were all members. The sisters I loved followed the Witness Lee program and will not see me, nor speak to me, nor my children, who loved these ones also. Th LC is the one maintaining their belief in and adherance to this practice by perpetrating division on unsuspecting believers. They actively carry this division out....the local church denominated my family...if you like that term. You cannot deny they are dividing the body of our Lord...in a purposeful and destructive way. The Lord knows all they are doing....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Evangelical....you pretend the sordid practice of dividing from christians is not the modus operandi of the Lee church. I was divided from the saints in my locality by them. I would never have voluntarily shunned, cold-shouldered, or divided from them of my own accord...they were friends and I loved them. We belong together in the fellowship of Christ...this division was against my ill and choosing for the body of Christ, of Whom we were all members. The sisters I loved followed the Witness Lee program and will not see me, nor speak to me, nor my children, who loved these ones also. Th LC is the one maintaining their belief in and adherance to this practice by perpetrating division on unsuspecting believers. They actively carry this division out....the local church denominated my family...if you like that term. You cannot deny they are dividing the body of our Lord...in a purposeful and destructive way. The Lord knows all they are doing....

Using Evangelical's "car" analogy, these LC sisters drove you and your children to a lonely deserted country road, and then kicked you and your children out of the car. Then they quickly sped away all excited about meeting together in the name of Witness Lee.

In their twisted minds, they were not "dividing" from you, rather there was just not room for you in their car, because they had a "vision" for where this "car" should be going.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Jesus never told anyone to come out of these churches, but to overcome - "to him who overcomes".

I never said that Jesus did tell them to come out of these churches, that was Zeek. What I said was that the verse in Philadelphia indicates that everyone in that church has had to come out previously and that this coming out did not hinder their status as overcomers.

Here is what Rev 2-3 actually does say:

Ephesus:
5Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place,

So what happens if the lamp stand is removed? You just stay there? Or do you come out?

Pergamum
even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you

So what happens if like John Ingalls you are forced to leave?

Thyatira
except they repent of her works

Granted there are those in Thyatira that do not know the deep things of Satan. But what do you do once you do know? You are required to "repent of her works". You seriously think that this means you stay in Thyatira?

Sardis
If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief

And what exactly is He stealing? WL's exposition of the Bible, the entire bound set? Come on, He is taking the precious saints. So where do they go once they have been taken?

Laodicea
Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is standing at the door of Laodicea knocking, asking for someone to open the door to Him. That tells me He is outside of the church. Just like Hebrews says, "Let us therefore go forth outside the camp unto Him".

He told them "thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked" they are blind -- He says "behold", if they weren't blind they would see that Jesus is no longer in the church but outside. They think they are rich but Jesus Christ is our riches and He is no longer there, they have been robbed and are poor. They were warned that they would lose their lamp stand and it has been fulfilled, they have lost their light.

You seem clueless to how many questions remained unanswered with your simplistic view.

Like Abraham we have been called to go out to a place where we are to receive our inheritance. If it isn't Ephesus then we keep going. If it isn't Thyatira we keep going. If it isn't Sardis we keep going. We keep going until we get to Philadelphia, only then do we hear the words that we no longer need to go out anymore.

[UntoHim]

Ok ZNP, you've taken the "called out" deal as far as it can be taken...and then some. Your last number of posts have started to stray from the general theme of the thread I believe. (so have zeek's but you egged him on, and Mr. z, God bless him, is never going to back down from a good argument) So as much as I love all this esoteric rhetoric....we have a rare opportunity here. A thread actually started by our friend Drake! Accordingly, I really want him to take the lead on this thread, even if he doesn't want to.

Originally Posted by Drake

That Jesus, the one in Revelation, is judging, condemning, and hates some things and commends His followers who hate the same things. He condemns things in the churches. Is His condemning and hatred incompatible with love one another? incompatible with judge not? No, it is not. Does He intimate any concept close to "live and let live"? No, He does not. Does He condemn the worship of Beyonce under the banner of Christian worship? I'm certain He does. Appealing to the Jesus in the gospels while evaluating the matters He judges as the High Priest, matters that He explicitly states we are to heed, is missing the whole point of Revelation 2 & 3.

I still think this quote by Drake strikes at the heart of the matter. Also, I still would say Witness Lee was not qualified in position or person to be the judge of the entire of Christianity (whatever that term "Christianity" may mean to whomever). That being said I strongly feel that God can and does raise up faithful ones who would speak forth a strong and sharp work of correction for his people. He did it through Moses and Aaron, he did it through Joshua, he did it though so many of the major and minor prophets. Of course he certainly did it through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Righteous. But this same Lord and Savior clearly passed along this baton to the original apostles and disciples - and now the baton has been passed to us - his latter day disciples.

And among the ragtag band of his latter day disciples, somebody has to stand up and speak forth the true condition of God's people. The problem is that it takes a true man of God who is without offence towards God or man. A man with clean hands in respect to God and man. One who can draw the line in the sand and not be worried about who may or may not step over it. Tall order, I understand.
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[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I never said that Jesus did tell them to come out of these churches, that was Zeek. What I said was that the verse in Philadelphia indicates that everyone in that church has had to come out previously and that this coming out did not hinder their status as overcomers.
.

Following your ideas, the overcomers must be the ones watching TV church on a Sunday from their lounge room .
"I don't like this denomination over here, so I'll go to this other, I am such an overcomer". Especially if you think a church is a gathering of two or three, it's so much easier to leave one small group and join another small gathering of two or three.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Following your ideas, the overcomers must be the ones watching TV church on a Sunday from their lounge room .
"I don't like this denomination over here, so I'll go to this other, I am such an overcomer". Especially if you think a church is a gathering of two or three, it's so much easier to leave one small group and join another small gathering of two or three.

So the overcomers in the LRC were called out of Christianity, but if you are called to come out from the midst of the LRC then you are in a lounge chair watching church on TV?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So the overcomers in the LRC were called out of Christianity, but if you are called to come out from the midst of the LRC then you are in a lounge chair watching church on TV?

Where's bro Drake. Untohim charged him with this thread.

Someone tell him that I said that I'd take poor, poor, Christianity, and even the lounge chair TV church, over Lee's cult, and all the machinations that support it.

And bro EvanG, what's wrong with 2 or 3 gathering together, if the Lord is there?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So the overcomers in the LRC were called out of Christianity, but if you are called to come out from the midst of the LRC then you are in a lounge chair watching church on TV?

If you think overcoming means leaving the group then aren't those watching church TV the overcomers in the city?