Now's good - byHismercy

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

At least, people should read the book "The Kingdom" before jumping to conclusions about Lee's terminology.

If there is any group getting "out of their mind" in Christianity it is the tongue speakers, pentecostal worshippers who whip themselves into an emotional frenzy using choreography, dance and music, and sometimes mass hypnosis (Benny Hinn and others), drunk in the Spirit and "holy laughter", and Catholic contemplative meditators, not the local churches. Full control of mental faculties are retained before, during and after a church meeting.

I disagree. We were told to get out of our mind, period. No qualifiers. As with most of the Lee corpus, what may have originally related to scripture, however faintly, was dumbed down to the point of caricature, or worse. Shouting slogans became the way "out of our minds".

And we did a lot of jumping and shouting and arm-waving to manufacture an exalted state (at least, my group did. And I saw it in Anaheim too). So don't be so quick to try & distance yourself from pentecostalism. As Drake says, "That wasn't my experience."

And the videos I saw smuggled out of the PRC are even more damning when I consider what role that shouting slogans for hours had in producing ISIS-level craziness. Talk about an emotional frenzy. . . it was pretty clear on the video tape that they were suppressing the mind.

Again, go to the Acts 15 conference for comparison. Did the person who shouted slogans the loudest prevail? No, they had what most of us would call a discussion

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I disagree. We were told to get out of our mind, period. No qualifiers. As with most of the Lee corpus, what may have originally related to scripture, however faintly, was dubbed down to the point of caricature, or worse. Shouting slogans became the way "out of our minds".

And we did a lot of jumping and shouting and arm-waving to manufacture an exalted state (at least, my group did. And I saw it in Anaheim too). So don't be so quick to try & distance yourself from pentecostalism. As Drake says, "That wasn't my experience."

Going to Anaheim was literally a "Trip" for most of us from Ohio.

What began for me initially as a focused time to study God's word morphed into shout-reading Lee's footnotes in the Trainings. It was publicly proclaimed that PSRP separated us from poor, poor Christianity. They were right. The more the better. There's nothing about PSRP that even included God's word. Reading banners to start the Trainings was the least of it.

And talk about a charismatic frenzy. Whoever started that practice of praying in small groups during the meetings? Thousands shouting over others in order to hear themselves. At times I felt like crawling into a hole to preserve sanity. Thank God for ear plugs!

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by aron

I disagree. We were told to get out of our mind, period. No qualifiers. As with most of the Lee corpus, what may have originally related to scripture, however faintly, was dubbed down to the point of caricature, or worse. Shouting slogans became the way "out of our minds".

And we did a lot of jumping and shouting and arm-waving to manufacture an exalted state (at least, my group did. And I saw it in Anaheim too). So don't be so quick to try & distance yourself from pentecostalism. As Drake says, "That wasn't my experience."

Aron I agree with most of what you're saying, but I have to jump in because I agree with Drake on a point - I love when that happens! I heard frequent condemnation of Pentecostals (much like what Evangelical was sharing) and, in that, didn't see arm waiving or jumping during my year visiting with the LSM ministry churches (and attending the December "training") in 2015-16.

I remember discussing speaking in tongues in one home meeting. I personally don't speak in tongues and have never attended a church that promoted it specifically as a practice (so no need to lash out at me Evangelical) but these people so blindly follow Lee that they mark all people who speak in tongues as crazy Pentecostals - they didn't even know any individuals who spoke in tongues to make this judgement (at least most of them). I shared my experience and it was met with silence from the older brothers and sisters in the room - this wasn't part of their morning revival so they didn't have much to contribute. Experiencing the Lord through His Word and His Body is so much sweeter than parroting what some dead dude with a questionable Christian Leadership says.

This is a perfect example of the toxic culture in the LSM churches and why brothers and sisters need to be warned - even today - of WHO they are following and WHAT this ministry really is. This ministry is not the Lord's work to build His one true church, Witness lee was not the great Christian leader of a dispensation. All praise to God that this is not our truth.

[aron]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I heard frequent condemnation of Pentecostals (much like what Evangelical was sharing) and, in that, didn't see arm waiving or jumping during my year visiting with the LSM ministry churches (and attending the December "training") in 2015-16. .

My experience is 20 years ago so maybe it's changed, but back then your loyalty to the program, aka "being in spirit" could be assessed by: a) volume; b) sing-song cadence; c) repeating ministry verbatim; and d) rocking back and forth, head rolling, first pumps and karate chops, and hopping up and down. What I saw from the PRC could most accurately be described as screaming. Like, veins-standing-out screaming.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by aron

My experience is 20 years ago so maybe it's changed, but back then your loyalty to the program, aka "being in spirit" could be assessed by: a) volume; b) sing-song cadence; c) repeating ministry verbatim; and d) rocking back and forth, head rolling, first pumps and karate chops, and hopping up and down. What I saw from the PRC could most accurately be described as screaming. Like, veins-standing-out screaming.

Awesome-Karate chops! Man I missed out.

They still practiced pray reading which the brothers demonstrate their connectedness to Witness Lee by the volume of their voice (tongue-cheek). All a dog and pony show to show off for the LSM gang - this according to one Full Timer on the inside. All bark, no Spirit, all talk, no walk. Sad man, sad place. The Pharisees would be jealous. Guy’s like my FT friend tried to shine light, change the culture of Home meetings, but most in the “Church Life” don’t want it. They’re comfortable in the bubble. But there is so much more!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Awesome-Karate chops! Man I missed out.

!

You should have seen those awesome Karate chops while fast-forwarding thru the videos.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

What I saw from the PRC could most accurately be described as screaming. Like, veins-standing-out screaming.

Yikes Aron.

That bears very little resemblance to what a have observed in multiple localities over forty years. Then or now. PRC or elsewhere.

If I had experienced anything close to that description I would have been the driver of your getaway car!

Drake

[JJ]

Yes, it's been toned down quite a bit in recent years, but the longer you go back the sort of behavior aron described was quite common in TLR's California churches. Dick Taylor had a fierce karate chop and shouts! And now he's blended, and toned down quite a bit thank God

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes, it's been toned down quite a bit in recent years, but the longer you go back the sort of behavior aron described was quite common in TLR's California churches. Dick Taylor had a fierce karate chop and shouts! And now he's blended, and toned down quite a bit thank God

Around 1982, I was looking at tapes and realized that in the testimonies,,there was a lot of empty shouting, hand waving, etc. These were before the turmoil in 1978. After that, those who remained seem to become more sober. One factor was there was sadness in seeing many leave. Also, I felt troubled at that time that I had lacked discernment. I believe others may have also felt this way.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

I disagree. We were told to get out of our mind, period. No qualifiers. As with most of the Lee corpus, what may have originally related to scripture, however faintly, was dumbed down to the point of caricature, or worse. Shouting slogans became the way "out of our minds".

And we did a lot of jumping and shouting and arm-waving to manufacture an exalted state (at least, my group did. And I saw it in Anaheim too). So don't be so quick to try & distance yourself from pentecostalism. As Drake says, "That wasn't my experience."

And the videos I saw smuggled out of the PRC are even more damning when I consider what role that shouting slogans for hours had in producing ISIS-level craziness. Talk about an emotional frenzy. . . it was pretty clear on the video tape that they were suppressing the mind.

Again, go to the Acts 15 conference for comparison. Did the person who shouted slogans the loudest prevail? No, they had what most of us would call a discussion

The key thing is not the outward manifestation per se but the cause of that - is it emotional or is it spiritual? Even Jesus jumped up and down with joy on occasion. And for prophets in the Old Testament it was customary to strip naked and their behavior was bizarre.

However in Pentecostalism it is noticeably caused by the drumming rhythms and beats (similar to African tribal frenzy) and the expectation for God to "work a miracle" and the Spirit to "come down". Somehow their experiences are correlated with the quality of the music and sound effects, that without them they would not be able to produce those experiences. In fact Pentecostals are unable to produce these experiences without some kind of worship music playing in the background. This shows that they seek to touch their emotions to gain the Spirit. It's all about creating the "atmosphere". In the local churches the piano players can be more of a distraction to the atmosphere than anything else - there is really little comparison. "Stop playing honky tonk when I'm trying to touch the Spirit".

In contrast a spiritual person can access the Spirit of God through prayer or God's Word, and experience positive emotions, any time, regardless of outward circumstances. This can result in ecstatic behavior but like the Old Testament prophets comes through activity of the Spirit alone and not external stimuli.

To be clear, I don't believe there's a problem with using emotions to touch the Spirit, but the number of Kundalini videos on youtube makes me think it is dangerous if taken too far.

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The key thing is not the outward manifestation per se but the cause of that - is it emotional or is it spiritual? Even Jesus jumped up and down with joy on occasion. And for prophets in the Old Testament it was customary to strip naked and their behavior was bizarre.

However in Pentecostalism it is noticeably caused by the drumming rhythms and beats (similar to African tribal frenzy) and the expectation for God to "work a miracle" and the Spirit to "come down". Somehow their experiences are correlated with the quality of the music and sound effects, that without them they would not be able to produce those experiences. In fact Pentecostals are unable to produce these experiences without some kind of worship music playing in the background. This shows that they seek to touch their emotions to gain the Spirit. It's all about creating the "atmosphere". In the local churches the piano players can be more of a distraction to the atmosphere than anything else - there is really little comparison. "Stop playing honky tonk when I'm trying to touch the Spirit".

In contrast a spiritual person can access the Spirit of God through prayer or God's Word, and experience positive emotions, any time, regardless of outward circumstances. This can result in ecstatic behavior but like the Old Testament prophets comes through activity of the Spirit alone and not external stimuli.

To be clear, I don't believe there's a problem with using emotions to touch the Spirit, but the number of Kundalini videos on youtube makes me think it is dangerous if taken too far.

Hi Evangelical
Where are the references to prophets stripping naked and acting strangely? If someone was to do that in front of me, I'd be outta there! Thank you.